[V4Vendetta]

How do I go about getting some daggers & learing how to use them? I just saw "V for Vendetta" & realize I will no longer need guns if I can properly twirl knives.:D Just kidding. I would like to know where I could get some though.

[Rupestris]

You can start here:
http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_store.html?ttl=Combat%20Daggers&srch=waDESCRIPTIONdatarq%3Dcombat%20dagger

Be warned. Knives are an addiction. First, its one for each need then progresses. You'll be looking for custom knives and spending hundreds on each before you know it.

good luck and be careful.

[Skofnung]

I'm a big fan of Daggers. I think the ideal fighting knife would be a broad bladed (at least 2" at the guard) dagger with an 8" spear pointed business end, a 3" quillon, and a flat pommel.

I've yet to find the ideal shaped production dagger that is also made of good steel.

The Cold Steel Tai-Pan is a fairly good design, but the pommel is pointed. I prefer a flat or at least not sharp pommel on a knife, especially one that might need the off hand to "palm" it.

The Spec-Plus Broad dagger would be great if the blade were 1 or 2" longer.

Applegate-Fairbarin knives are good, but they aren't as good at cutting as I would prefer.

Various "reproductions" of Middle-Ages daggers abound, and the designs are good, but the steel is often lacking.

[Smith357]

The Randall #2 is a great dagger. I'm still kicking myself for selling mine.
http://www.nordicknives.com/Rand_images2/R02_J.jpg

[wheelgunslinger]

wow. you aren't kidding. that's a knice knife.

[Skofnung]

Randall #2

:what: :what: :what:

Dadgum you Smith357!

My poor, poor bank account!

[hso]

V4Vendetta,

Any bonehead can buy anything off the net, but the "learning" how to use them part is where it gets difficult. Learning to use a dagger is especially so considering it isn't one of the trendy pseudoasian designs pimped to ninja wannabes. You'll need to reseach "western martial arts" as a start. Look at Bladeforums and research it there as well. Check with Swordplay Alliance folks also. That should save you 3 months of random reading. With luck you'll find someone in NC that can help you.

[1911JMB]

As Skofunung said, Applegate Fairbairn daggers are good, but due to the fact that they are big and solid double edged daggers, they cannot be given a razor edge. That is why Boker now offers them in a more useful single edged version, which is also more legal to carry in many places. They are made out of 440C hardened to a Rockwell 58, and at 125 bucks or so on the internet, they are a great buy.

[Thefabulousfink]

If you are looking for old style daggers, try http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/home.aspx All their stuff is high quality and made from high carbon steel (usually 440c). Keep in mind that their products are shipped blunt and take a LOT of sharpening to get a good edge ( I started with a mill file before I even touched a stone to it). If you take the time to sharpen them properly, they can be made VERY sharp.

As for learning to use them, allways practice with blunted weapons. Seek out some local matial arts instructors (escrima lends itself to knife fighting quite well).

For throwing daggers, any knife can be thrown some are just easier to throw than others. Pick up a reasonably priced throwing knife (any knife can be thrown but most throwing knives are sturdy enough not to break when the knife doen't stick). Set up stump in front of a good backstop in your back yard and practice from about 5 yards.

Some things to keep in mind:
1. Guns are the great equalizer, knives depend on the speed, agility, and training of the weilder.
2. Never bring a knife to a gunfight.:p
3. From a legal standpoint, you have a better chance of getting off of a self-defense shooting than stabing.
4. sharp knives are safe knives, dull knives are dangerous.
5. A knife is not a crowbar/chisel/screwdriver. Using a knife for purposes other than it was intended it a sure way to damage you knife and possible hurt yourself.

Hope this helps.

[HiWayMan]

Thefabulousfink -

I must disagree with point 2,but only a little. It should read, "Always bring a knife to a gun fight, and a gun.":neener:

[tellner]

To learn how to use them...

The Filipino and Indonesian martial arts center around the blade.
I've been told that Hwa Rang Do (an offshoot of Kuk Sool Won) has decent knife work
Some Kenpo schools have Filipino-influenced kinfe work
The few places that teach Western Combatives in its various forms often include knives.

Hope this helps,
Todd

[mercop]

I am releasing my Edged Weapon Essential DVD at Blade in June. It covers the basics.

[Kaylee]

440C is a stainless steel, most often (though not exclusively) used in junk from what I can see. Windlass uses some kind of carbon steel, I forget which type. From those Windlass blades I've seen, they tend to be a little too chunky in the edge area, and the longer ones are whippier than they should be.. but for the price they're darn nice. They ain't the best, but they ain't junk neither.

And MRL will sharpen any blade you buy from 'em if you ask nice and pay a fee - $25 last I heard, though it's been a while.

What (little) knife stuff I learned years ago was as an extension of a karate style. Basically, once you learn how the body moves knife stuff wasn't too different... just a lot more permanent. :uhoh:

[Soap]

440C is a stainless steel, most often (though not exclusively) used in junk from what I can see.

I'm sure that was a typo because 440C is awesome! I bet you meant 420C. Even 420HC isn't that bad. Regardless, nearly all stainless steels are unsuitable for long blades anyway.

[Kaylee]

hso reminds me...In the politest way and with all love, you're absolutely wrong. 420J, 420, those are used in junk. When you see "stainless" on a bad knife it's 420 stainless that they're using. 440C is still one of the best rust-resistant blade steels out there and when properly heat treated performs very well indeed.

Oops. :)

I was thinkin' of an old katana-SLO I had once upon a time. Marked 440C. Junk. Lucky I didn't kill myself with it. :)

Hence I've avoided similar since. To those I've mislead, my apologies.

(see, Mods can be royally wrong to. :p )

[Don Gwinn]

In your defense, 440C can make very nice knives but would not be considered a great choice for a sword the size of most katanas.

Also, there's a lot of junk out there with 420J or "440J" steel being marketed as 440C and even stamped that way on the blade. Those J steels are not bad steel when used for the right purpose, but they're not blade steel, period.

Finally, there used to be a lot of cheap stuff around using genuine 440C, but with poor heat treatment. 440C can be very good stuff, but from what I hear, it gets a little complicated to treat it correctly. I wouldn't know; I've never tried. The spread of knowledge as to how to harden and temper stainless properly, plus the advent of heat treaters like Paul Bos, has probably contributed to the recent improvement of 440C's image.

[hso]

Kaylee,

You were only partially incorrect. Any katana, or any other sword for that matter, that is 440C is a pretty wall hanger and not a sword. 440C makes fine knife blades and poor sword blades. It is too brittle and will snap potentially injuring anyone in the area as the tip flies through the air thursting for blood, or drywall:evil: . So if you narrow your statement to using swords, yes any using sword made of 440C is junk.

It's all in how we define our terms.;)

[madmike]

Also, there's a lot of junk out there with 420J or "440J" steel being marketed as 440C and even stamped that way on the blade. Those J steels are not bad steel when used for the right purpose, but they're not blade steel, period.


Buck uses 420, so does Gerber.

440 is a marine bearing steel. It makes a good, very corrosion resistant blade, but is very brittle on longer lengths. 420 isn't a bad steel when properly heat treated. Both are martensitic stainlesses and require proper soak time and an inert atmosphere.

Daggers are very pretty. Daggers are largely useless. I've made hundreds of them, but would never waste my time carrying one if anything better was available.

You have no back on a dagger to place your hand on for support for any kind of chore. You have a usually heavy diamond cross-section that precludes decent sharpening. If it's broad enough this is not a problem, you've taken a large mass of metal off what should be the back, thus weakening the blade. You're limited to slashing or stabbing. As far as utility, you can bore a fairly even hole with one. And it's very obviously a weapon so if you get busted for using it you're arguing uphill, as well as them being illegal in many jurisdictions.

Get a good bowie, seax or similar heavy single edged blade you can actually use as well as fight with.

The Vikings understood fighting and utility. And there's a reason there's no Old Norse word for "Dagger.";)

[JShirley]

Indeedy.

I was actually thinking (in my shower this morning, of all places) that even stabs can be executed as well with single-edged blades as with daggers, and they are enormously handicapped in other functionalities.

John

[Skofnung]

Daggers are very pretty. Daggers are largely useless
For the most part, I agree with you. But...

Get a good bowie, seax or similar heavy single edged blade you can actually use as well as fight with.

I thought we were talking about weapons. If the knife is to be a dual use blade then of course one should opt for a single edged piece. Most bowies and the seaxes that they descended from were as much camp tools as weapons.

Double edged fighting knives have been around as long as men have made weapons. As a knifemaker, I'm sure that you can attest to the fact that making a dagger is more work than making a single edged knife.

There must be some reason why our ancestors the world over that actually used knives to fight with chose to do the extra work. I think it is because daggers kill people better than other designs.

The above statement is based on opinion, but I think it is a well founded one.

[madmike]

There must be some reason why our ancestors the world over that actually used knives to fight with chose to do the extra work.

They didn't. Daggers are exceptionally rare. Rarer than swords.

They became more common as metal became more available, and became items of choice in this century, designed at first by military commissions who had largely never fought in combat, and then by designers looking for a buck.

[Skofnung]

They didn't. Daggers are exceptionally rare. Rarer than swords

Most stone age knives that I've seen are daggers, both from the Old World and the New.

Off the top of my head, bronze double edged daggers have been found in shaft graves in Mycenae, on Crete, and in Iran.

I've seen several examples of Etruscan iron daggers and later Roman Pugio.

In the Migration Period and early Middle Ages the Seax dominated in Northern Europe for the most part. By the 1200s though, the double (and triple) edged dagger had made a comeback. The 1300s brought us the Baselard and the Rondell. In Islamic and Hindu areas you find the curved double edged Jambia and straight "ear" daggers.

By the Renaissance we have the Cinqueda and the Main Gauche as well as plug bayonettes.

Of course single edged knives are going to be more common, they are more useful in everyday situations! But to say that daggers were uncommon as pure weapons is not true.

[hso]

From the end of the Middle Ages with the ballock-dagger, kidney dagger or dudgeon (1200-1700) daggers were found amongst dual use knives as weapons. Many other types of daggers were developed from then to 1900, the names usually referring to the style and including the ear dagger, quillon dagger, main gauche (left-hand), stiletto and bris-epee or sword-breaker. I don't think that because camp/fighting knives were more plentiful since they had to serve as utility knives that daggers should be considered rare as weapons.

[madmike]

The Stone Age blades were double edged because they broke often, and you kept more edge that way. They were generally used as tools.

Bronze Age daggers and swords are largely interchangeable--there was a limit to how large they could be made (generally 18", though some 'rapier' types were longer with a thick tenon), and they were intended primarily for stabbing, usually in set duels.

Pugios came about during Marius' and later periods, and were not always standard. They were used as a backup if the Gladius was lost, and, according to some evidence, as a trowel for construction.

In later texts, references are made to knights being armed with a "sword or long dagger," the two being considered interchangeable. As most casualties (apart from those caused by disease) were inflicted by spears and clubs in most cultures, the use of daggers was quite secondary. One would have to be wealthy enough for a sword first, THEN have loot to blow on a dagger in lieu of a more utilitarian knife. And many cultures never used them at all.

The two attacks with a dagger are a thrust and a cut. These can be accomplished with ANY knife. That's also about the limit of what one can do with a dagger.

Kidney daggers, ballock daggers, dirks, etc were intended mostly for stabbing, but were single edged, so they had some additional use otherwise. Keep in mind that a straight triangular shape was standard for European knives after the decline of the seax.

And parrying daggers were almost never used in war, but for dueling and showing off.

There are certainly historical daggers out there. There are less daggers than swords. Most warriors didn't have swords. That makes daggers "rare" for assessment purposes. When swords went largely away, the number of daggers remained and even increased slightly (especially if we count thrusting bayonets), but was still subordinate to more useful knives.

As I said, I love daggers. They're neat, symmetrical and can be really cool. But I can't see carrying one. Same reason the military gave up on foot long and longer bayonets. What am I going to DO with it? Stab someone? And what am I going to do with it the OTHER 99.9999% of the time?

I can stab someone with my Camillus or my Boker. I can't easily peel an apple, cut tent ropes, strip wire, pry open bales of sand bags, chop sticks for a splint, clear grass from in front of my position or section a chicken with it.

So do I want to carry a second knife that does two things the other knife already does? Or just carry the one knife and save weight?

Yes, it's an opinion, after decades making and using both types.

[Skofnung]

Again, I agree with you on the carrying aspect. I carry a gun. I also carry a Spyderco Endura and a SAK Tinker. In the unlikley event that I need to knife a goblin, I have no doubt that my Endura will do the job well.

But if I knew that I had to face someone with just a knife, that knife would be the largest, best balanced double edged dagger I could lay my hands on.

As a weapon, a broad double edged dagger is a better choice than a single edged knife of the same size. As a tool it is lacking.

The above is my opinion, nothing more.

As to historical use of double edged weapons, that is a post that will have to wait for later.

[madmike]

For strictly fighting, assuming no gun, pole weapon or sword, a good dagger IS a good choice.

The advantage is the point is centered. But there are other knives like that. (They lose some of their other advantages that way, of course.)

It has two cutting edges, for slashes and draws or backcuts. But a Ka-Bar can be sharpened like that.

It can have a very strong point. Most single edged blades don't have that.

But I'd want the handle sculpted to a one-sided or oval shape rather than round, to improve the grip. Your mileage may vary.

I'd certainly not refuse a good dagger. I'll take all the hardware I can get.:) Too many weapons can always be shared with friends or proudly displayed for later:)