Is it true that Lon Horiuchi lives in fear for his life? (No Drift This Time Please!)


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The Real Hawkeye
March 19, 2006, 09:49 AM
I kept meaning to check out the thread about Ruby Ridge, but kept getting distracted. Finally, I had time to look at it and participate, and I guess some people started it drifting over to a discussion of Waco (apparently a no no), and it got locked up before I could get to it. So, please keep this discussion on my topic, and don't drift to Waco. If you want to discuss Waco, try starting another thread. I know it seems highly related and relevant, but some moderators don't like the two discussed on the same thread.

Here's what I wanted to comment on.I don't believe its been emphasized enough here that Lon Horiuchi, gov't sniper, murdered Vicki Weaver while she stood in the doorway, infant in arms. This snake has never stood trial for that cold blooded murder. It makes me damn angry.Actually, it's a question. Is the rumor true that Lon Horiuchi lives in constant fear for his life in a kind of protective custody on a military base? I had heard this somewhere, and was wondering if anyone had verification of this, at least the living on an army base part. Thanks.

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griz
March 19, 2006, 09:53 AM
I believe he still works for the FBI doing the same job. I haven't heard your rumor.

Art Eatman
March 19, 2006, 10:25 AM
Rumor and hearsay: If he's still with the FBI, he's not on any HRT-type team. He embarassed the Bureau. He could not be seen as having made a "good shoot" under any circumstances, and were he to be so utilized by the Bureau, they'd take a lot of public flak.

Allegedly, all the "So YOU'RE the guy who..." comments he gets from anybody he meets has him despondent.

Again, rumor and hearsay.

Art

Lone_Gunman
March 19, 2006, 10:27 AM
We can only hope he is despondent. The world would be a better place without him.

R.H. Lee
March 19, 2006, 10:30 AM
Who makes the 'shoot/no-shoot' decisions in HRT operations? Is it the 'sniper' independently, or was Horiuchi a tool of higher-ups, command and control or whatever?

Lone_Gunman
March 19, 2006, 10:34 AM
I don't think it matters in the case of Horiuchi who made the decision. He pulled the trigger on an un-armed woman holding a baby. At a minimum, he is responsible, and there may be culpability higher up the chain of command as well. I doubt we will ever know.

stoky
March 19, 2006, 10:42 AM
Whether the moderators like it or not the facts are that he was a shooter in both places and his accountability consisted of a wink and a nod from the powers that be.
I think that he is proud to be above the law and hopes for further opportunities to drop the hammer on anyone else that tries to be too free. He is likely a role model for wanna be JBTs aspiring to be just like him. :barf:

Art Eatman
March 19, 2006, 10:43 AM
My understanding is that for each situation, the shoot/no-shoot rules of engagement are written, and are signed off by the person in charge.

The problem is that a shooter might well violate the rules of engagement on his own decision, and then possibly a coverup can begin.

Edit-add: If I remember right, the intended target was the man with the Weaver family, and at the time of the shot he was moving back into the house. If Horiuchi had been told to shoot him, then Horiuchi's skill level was not up to the task. Another facet is our often-mentioned rule about always knowing what's behind your intended target. Horiuchi missed the guy; Mrs. Weaver was standing behind, in the line of fire.

It was pretty obvious from all reports--both official and unofficial--and from the public hearings that at Ruby Ridge, a strong CYA effort was put in place. The natural assumption is that when such a CYA effort begins, the rules of engagement were not followed.

Art

WT
March 19, 2006, 11:00 AM
I suspect Horiuchi is now retired from the FBI. He would be 52 years old and with his West Point - military experience, etc., he probably has 30+ years in federal service. He has probably moved back to his home in Hawaii. Maybe runs a SCUBA shop or teaches surfboarding.

Husker1911
March 19, 2006, 11:13 AM
I would be happy to offer Mr. Horiuchi a single cartridge of his sidearm choice.

TallPine
March 19, 2006, 11:40 AM
Is it true that Lon Horiuchi lives in fear for his life?
Well, if it's not then it should be :p

He's probably living under an assumed name in some gated community somewhere.

I don't think he would be either welcome or safe in my neck of the woods. Even the little old ladies are pretty "radical" around here.;)

The Real Hawkeye
March 19, 2006, 11:44 AM
I would be happy to offer Mr. Horiuchi a single cartridge of his sidearm choice.And I'd love to see it. Wouldn't it be nice if someone kept posting his address on the Internet, regardless of how many times he moved. If he is not going to be tried and hung, he should at least have to live the rest of his life in fear.

I went on a tour of the FBI Headquarters back in October 2002. An FBI man gave a speech and took questions. I asked him, in front of a large audience, what the rules of engagement at Ruby Ridge were, and why the dog, the boy and the woman were thought to be ok to shoot. You should have seen this guy's reaction. He was pissed off as hell. He tried to laugh it all off, and call it ancient history that some people can't move on from, and basically didn't answer the question other than to express sympathy for Mr. H, and he called it a mistake anyone in that position can make. He implied that anyone still concerned about that whole thing had a mental problem. He also said that it's been harder to find people to work in that role in the FBI since the incident, expressing regret over that. But, you could tell, the guy was embarrassed by the question. I hope he gets that question in front of audiences frequently, but unfortunately, if you can believe it, I got the impression that most of the audience never heard of Ruby Ridge. I kept hearing people whispering, "What's Ruby Ridge?" "What's that guy talking about that got him so upset?"

Spot77
March 19, 2006, 11:46 AM
He's probably living under an assumed name in some gated community somewhere.



For all we know, he could be a well respected THR Moderator. :neener:

Herself
March 19, 2006, 11:47 AM
Is it true that Lon Horiuchi lives in fear for his life?
While I would never advocate the initiation of force, I certainly hope the rumor is true. It's not life in prison without possibility of parole or worse, but it's something. Even his being "despondent" is a little something.

So what if the cause was "simple bad judgement," he killed someone who offered no threat to him. You don't get a free pass to do that, not in any decent society. It carries a heavy price the shooter must pay, no matter if it is you, me, or a highly-trained FBI sniper.[1]


Who makes the 'shoot/no-shoot' decisions in HRT operations? Is it the 'sniper' independently, or was Horiuchi a tool of higher-ups, command and control or whatever?
"I vass only followink orders!" Nope, won't wash: Be sure of your target and what's behind it. He wasn't. Even if the man's a tool -- and I don't know him well enough to make that call and do not care to -- it was his finger on the trigger. Either he recognized and shot anyway, or he couldn't tell and simply guessed, then shot at his guess. Either one is wrong.

The entire situation was idiotic, an excellent example of why "shock and awe" military-type tactics are moronic methods for police work: they escalate the situation and get people killed. Especially when applied half-heartedly. [2]


Has anyone here heard of "sousveillance?" It's sort of the opposite of "surveillance," tricks like pointing a webcam at and/or tracking it with a security camera in a public area, or staging little plays for 'em, that sort of thing. Hypothetically, one would have to wonder if some aspects of that approach might be applied to snipers in situations like Ruby Ridge. Of course, you'd need folks who knew the lay of the land well enough to locate them without undue bother, first. Even innocently asking the man in the tree or on the rooftop what he thought he was doin', callin' the police to report a suspicious prowler or taking him cookies and milk might keep another mother or child from gettin' whacked by some tacticoool d00d on the gummit payroll.

Police and military skills are not the same, especially in "engagement." The goals are very different. LEOs hadn't ought to play soldier. Soldiers shouldn't play police. (Or only the MPs should -- and they are policing their own. It's a darned hard job and there are some darned fine folks doing it).

--Herself
____________________
1. Why is it the highly-trained types who have all these finely-honed skills get more leeway to make fatal or injurious errors than regular folks like us, anyway? It's like Mario Andretti getting away with running down pedestrians!

2. A full-out surprise assault might very well have produced fewer casualties and less outcry -- and less publicity. Randy Weaver and family weren't exactly what you'd call shock troops. But the Feds wanted to play to the cameras and didn't want to look too evil. See how well that worked!

Don Gwinn
March 19, 2006, 12:06 PM
For all we know, he could be a well respected THR Moderator.
No, he really couldn't. :eek:

The rules of engagement at Ruby Ridge were modified by officials en route to the scene while they were in the air. I don't recall every detail, but the guy who took most of the blame was named Potts.

The rules were amended on this occasion to state that any armed adult should be treated as a threat and stopped.

This meant that for Horiuchi to shoot at Randy Weaver while he was visiting the shed in which his son's body had been placed was within those rules of engagement. Although Weaver was not pointing his gun at anyone at that moment, he was armed. It also meant that shooting at Kevin (can't recall the last name) as he and Randy fled back inside the cabin was within those same rules--he was also armed. It was as or immediately after this man entered the cabin that Vicki Weaver was shot. She was standing in the doorway.

Horiuchi tried two defenses at trial:

1. There was a helicopter behind Horiuchi, and the men were threatening either him or the helicopter with rifles.
However, it was shown that there was no helicopter in the area at that time and the men never knew Horiuchi was in position until he fired.

2. He hit Vicki Weaver by accident, not knowing she was behind a door with the curtains pulled on the window in that door.
At trial, it was shown that Horiuchi had made a sketch of the window on hotel paper the night of the shooting. In the sketch, the curtains are open and Vicki Weaver's body and head are clearly visible.


Horiuchi, in my opinion, was in a shooting mode and did not stop to see whether Vicki Weaver was armed or not. He may have mistaken her for one of the two armed men at whom he'd been firing an instant before. It's hard to say. But his target was diving low and she was standing upright; missing the low target and hitting her head is hard to believe.


Much more controversial to this day is the matter of who fired first when Sammy Weaver, Kevin and the dog encountered the U.S. Marshals in camouflage in the woods. The forensic evidence does seem to indicate that the Marshals shot first, but to my knowledge that service has never admitted it. Their official story is that they came under unprovoked fire from Sammy and Kevin and returned fire in self-defense.

Nicky Santoro
March 19, 2006, 12:16 PM
Is it true that Lon Horiuchi lives in fear for his life?

From all that I have read, this miserable little bastard was in the mood to kill that day. Since he has apparently escaped the legal system, I can only hope that he does not escape justice.

AZRickD
March 19, 2006, 12:25 PM
Horiuchi, featured here was part of one of six sniper teams that day:

http://www.answers.com/topic/lon-horiuchi

From his West Point Pic circa 1976:
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/4/4f/200px-Horiuchi.jpg

Lon claims that from his sniper hide some 200 yards away (a chip shot, actually) he was shooting at Kevin Harris

http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/10a.jpg

as he was running from the shed where the dead son (Sammy, shot in the back by Federal Marshmallows the day before) of Randy Weaver was being kept. Kevin was running because Lon had already shot Randy in the back (under the armpit IIRC). Lon claims that the reason he shot at Randy was that Randy was shooting at a helicopter. The helicopter pilot reported not seeing anyone of the group pointing rifles at him, and I don't think any chopper was in range at the time.

I'm guessing Lon had a better line of fire than shown in this picture:
http://www.cnn.com/US/9610/22/fbi.ruby.ridge/house.jpg

Vicki Weaver was at the door holding it open, and carrying her 10-month old daughter Elisheba when the bullet struck her on the tempe and exited down through her jaw/neck. Vicki crumpled to the ground on her knees, still holding a blood-drenched Elisheba. Vicki was sobbing before she died.

The bullet fragments, along with bone from Vicki entered Kevin Harris' chest area as he passed behind her.

Bullet hole in the cabin door:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/15a.jpg

Lon's napkin sketch of the door
http://www.ruby-ridge.com/gspence3.htm

The theory is that FBI HRT felt that Vicki was the one who was keeping them from surrendering. Whether this was an accident is still up to speculation from some.

http://reason.com/9310/fe.bock.shtml

http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/16.html
The psychological warfare became even worse the following day. “Good morning Mrs. Weaver,” Fred Lanceley, an FBI negotiator, called out. “We had pancakes this morning. And what did you have for breakfast? Why don't you send your children out for some pancakes, Mrs. Weaver?”

A coverup? Never... http://www.cnn.com/US/9610/22/fbi.ruby.ridge/

FBI's Larry Potts who ordered the "shoot any armed man" order (and who was later promoted).

http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/14a.jpg

Weaver awarded $3.1 Million
http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/ruby2.html

Federal prosecutors eventually ended a two-year long probe into several FBI officials for their role in the Ruby Ridge standoff. Following the investigation, Danny Coulson, former head of FBI headquarters, was given a letter of censure; Michael Kahoe, who had been involved in researching the rules of engagement, was censured and suspended for 15 days; Richard Rogers, head of the hostage rescue team, was censured and suspended for 10 days; Larry Potts, the man who had approved the rules of engagement, was censured; Eugene Glenn, Ruby Ridge field commander, was censured and suspended for 15 days, and Lou Horiuchi, the HRT "Blue" sniper/observer team leader, received no punishment for his actions, which resulted in the death of Vicki Weaver.

Here is the Case of the State of Idaho v Horiuchi which the beloved Attorney General Janet Reno was able to move to federal jurisdiction where it was dismissed because Lon was "operating in the scope of his duties."

http://www.ce9.uscourts.gov/web/newopinions.nsf/0/0a3eecf263a1d0c788256927007a742b?OpenDocument

If anyone has pictures of Vicki, Sara, and Elisheba, I'd appreciate them being posted here.

Rick

The Real Hawkeye
March 19, 2006, 12:45 PM
Their official story is that they came under unprovoked fire from Sammy and Kevin and returned fire in self-defense.If I'm walking peaceably in the woods with my dog, and someone in camouflage shoots my dog, how is that not provocation? :confused: That person's life would be over in a matter of seconds if I got a clear shot at him. A man's dog is his friend, a family member, and work partner. You don't shoot someone's dog and reasonably expect not to be fired on if the dog's owner is armed.

geekWithA.45
March 19, 2006, 12:51 PM
I can't find the quote, but Col. Jeff Cooper periodically takes note that Lon Horiuchi remains alive and at large.

Husker1911
March 19, 2006, 01:11 PM
Jeff Cooper, "The Federal agent who shot Vicki Weaver in the face, deliberately, while she was unarmed and holding her child is named Lon Horiuchi. Remember that name. He is still walking around loose. That man must eventually pay for his crime, here or hereafter. Lon Horiuchi."

http://dvc.org.uk/jeff/jeff1_11.html

beerslurpy
March 19, 2006, 01:17 PM
The only photos I ever see of Lon Horiuchi are from 30 years ago. Anyone have any current ones? He probably looks like Egg Shen from Big Trouble in Little China by now.

R.H. Lee
March 19, 2006, 01:19 PM
The theory is that FBI HRT felt that Vicki was the one who was keeping them from surrendering. Whether this was an accident is still up to speculation from some.

From the link provided with that quote:
The sniper, Lon Horiuchi, was a West Point graduate armed with state-of-the--art sniping equipment and trained to be accurate to within a quarter inch at 200 yards. He claims he missed Kevin and hit Vicki by accident. But Bo Gritz, the former Green Beret commander who eventually negotiated Randy Weaver’s surrender, said that after he became a negotiator the FBI showed him a psychological profile of the family prepared for the Marshals Service before the siege that described Vicki as the "dominant member" of the family. "Vicki was the maternal head of the family," Gritz told the Spokane Spokesmar-Review. "I believe Vicki was shot purposely by the sniper as a priority target....The profile said, if you get a chance, take Vicki Weaver out."

ElTacoGrande
March 19, 2006, 01:26 PM
A very old photo:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/10/Horiuchi.jpg/200px-Horiuchi.jpg

Someone should post some newer pictures of one of our public servants.

crazed_ss
March 19, 2006, 01:31 PM
Like I said in the other thread about this.
Didnt a Marshal die at Ruby Ridge?
Is it not possible that the sniper shot the Weaver wife out of "revenge"?
If so, he probably doesnt feel too much remorse.

Don Gwinn
March 19, 2006, 02:37 PM
Yes, one of the Marshals who encountered Harris, Sammy Weaver and the dog was killed in that firefight.

AZRickD, thanks for correcting some of what I wrote and giving us much better detail, especially the primary sources.


I had not heard Gritz's claim that the profile actually suggested that Vicki Weaver should be killed if possible to break resistance.

It does seem to be true that the negotiators thought of Vicki as the power in the family, as indeed she probably was. She seems to have made most of the important decisions.

Another controversial point for the Weaver family was the tactic used by the negotiators after Vickie Weaver was killed. The negotiators taunted the family by calling out to Vickie over loudspeakers, saying things like "Is your baby hungry, Vickie?" and "We're having pancakes for breakfast out here, Vickie, what is your family having? Why not bring them out so they can be fed?"

The negotiators say that they were trying to appeal to Vickie Weaver because they thought she was the one with the power to decide to end the standoff by surrendering. They didn't believe Randy would surrender without her approval. And, they say, they didn't know that Vickie Weaver was dead.

The family, according to Every Knee Shall Bow, was convinced that the negotiators knew all about Vickie's death and were taunting the survivors by talking about her and the baby. They also believed at the time that the negotiators might be sending the message that they would end the standoff by killing the rest of the family (and Harris) the way they had killed Vickie.

Byron Quick
March 19, 2006, 02:53 PM
I haven't done a search lately and I don't know if it pulled up the same man or simply some unfortunate with the same name. But several years after Ruby Ridge, there was a Lon Horiuchi living in Idaho. Probably not the same person as I doubt that FBI agent Horiuchi would not have taken steps to avoid being easily found.

I have a major problem with the tactics and equipment used by the US Marshals the day that either they shot Sammie Weaver's dog or Sammie Weaver and Kevin Harris shot at them. If I see uniformed police officers on my property, I will identify myself and ask how I can help. If they have an arrest warrant, I'm going with them peacefully. I have an attorney who can deal with such situations. If I see people dressed and equipped as ninja assassins then I will treat them as ninja assassins. My attorney can't help with ninja assassins.

Law enforcement agencies defend many tactics by stating the tactic in question has passed constitutional muster. I believe this is only one of the questions the agencies should be asking themselves. The law enforcement agencies also need to ask,"Is this a wise policy and procedure for us to use? And, if it is, is this policy and procedure being used wisely?" It is my belief that if law enforcement agencies added these two questions to their policy discussions, that drastic changes would be made in policy.

Many police tactics used today seemed to be developed by persons who wish to maximize distrust of the police by ordinary citizens

The Real Hawkeye
March 19, 2006, 03:49 PM
+1 Byron

roo_ster
March 19, 2006, 04:03 PM
In a just world, Lon Horiuchi would not be living in fear for his life.


































He would be living safe & sound in solitary confinement as an example to be ridiculed and despised by all.

Waitone
March 19, 2006, 04:05 PM
In today's world I would expect Mr. Horiuchi to be a rather well, paid high demand independent contractor with a rather large backlog of business. I can see tremendous demand for his professional skills by entities both governmental and commercial all over the planet. :scrutiny:

Mad Man
March 19, 2006, 04:18 PM
Byron Quick:
If I see uniformed police officers on my property, I will identify myself and ask how I can help. If they have an arrest warrant, I'm going with them peacefully. I have an attorney who can deal with such situations. If I see people dressed and equipped as ninja assassins then I will treat them as ninja assassins. My attorney can't help with ninja assassins.


How to Deal With A Ninja Attack: http://www.loservillex.com/ninja.html



ElTacoGrande:
Someone should post some newer pictures of one of our public servants.



"Only by insisting on accountability...can we constantly remind public servants that they are servants."
-David Brin
The Transparent Society (http://davidbrin.com/tschp1.html)

beerslurpy
March 19, 2006, 04:37 PM
Don Gwinn, what you are seeing are not actions taken to maximize distrust of police, what you are seeing is the adversarial system ad absurdum, the police as against the public rather than as public servants. The objective is to subdue all resistance to the policymaker, either directly or by example to others.

It is the logical outcome of a free society operating under unjust laws. The people do not comply willingly because the laws were not made for their benefit. Logically, the manner of enforcement is also indifferent to the effect on the citizenry.

Remember, Randy Weaver's family was killed because the federal police beleived he had a shotgun that was 1/8th of an inch below the 18 inch limit. Note that they did not beleive he actually knew the shotgun was under length, a key element in this being a crime. Instead, they had him under secret surveillance for this terrible crime, which triggered a confrontation when the Weaver family encountered heavily armed intruders on their property. I think the injustice of such a law and the enforcement in Ruby Ridge is pretty obvious.

Bigjake
March 19, 2006, 04:46 PM
The psychological warfare became even worse the following day. “Good morning Mrs. Weaver,” Fred Lanceley, an FBI negotiator, called out. “We had pancakes this morning. And what did you have for breakfast? Why don't you send your children out for some pancakes, Mrs. Weaver?”

This Fred Lanceley bastard seems as bad as Horiuchi, if in fact he DID KNOW she had been killed. I won't give either of them the benefit of a doubt , though.

Theres a special place in hell for JBTs of that sort, even if justice never catches up to them in this life (which would be a disapointment)

AZRickD
March 19, 2006, 04:46 PM
Instead, they had him under secret surveillance for this terrible crime, which triggered a confrontation when the Weaver family encountered heavily armed intruders on their property.

Weaver was under surveillance for nearly a year and a half, including very-high-altitude photographs. The Feds had spent $3-million just on surveillance. My fading understanding is that the US Marshmallows were under orders not to be on the Weaver property on that fateful day. They took it upon themselves to trespass.

Here is more on Bo Gritz opinion of what Lon was up to.

Bo Gritz was sent up as a negotiator to earn Randy Weaver's trust and get him to come down. While he was up there, he was able to examine the wounds of Weaver and Kevin Harris. His opinion was that Weaver's wound looked more like that of a .223 cal, held by Lon's spotter, not the 7.62 cal that Lon's tradesmen prefered.

Bo hypothesizes thusly:

http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7186
Lon Horiuchi testified in Court that he practiced, hitting a quarter inch target at 200 meters (yards). I lay in Horiuchi's sniper nest beside a pine on a hillside 200 yards from, and overlooking the cabin. He fired from a prone supported position and almost anyone with training could have hit the target from that range with a 10-power telescope - yet he missed - by more than 10 inches!

Horiuchi testified under oath that he aimed his first shot at the base of Randall's skull for an instant kill. Weaver was standing stock still with his back directly facing Horiuchi, lifting up his right arm to unlatch the tiny shelter less than 200 yards away, but Horiuchi didn't fire the first round - number two DID (Lon's spotter)!

Horiuchi was zeroed in on Vicki Weaver, but she would have made a better target standing standing in the yard. The number two man aimed his M- 16 offhand with iron sights at Weaver's head, but typically (ask any vet) missed by the margin stated. When Weaver didn't fall and the family ran for the cabin, Horiuchi hit his quarter inch bulls eye target - as planned.

More from Bo on who shot Federal Marshmallow Degan:
The Media continues to report that Kevin Harris killed Marshal William Degan: THIS IS NOT TRUE! Kevin did in fact tell me through the cabin wall on the second day of negotiations that he shot Degan. When I asked him how he was certain, he said: "Well, he's dead and Sammy didn't do it." Degan, Roderick and Larry Cooper (armed with a 9mm silenced Colt sub-machine gun) were wearing camouflage and laying in prepared positions within a wooded area overlooking the trail at the "Y." Harris confirmed that he didn't actually "SEE" Degan, but he "...did fire one shot from a bolt action 30.06 rifle at a spot where smoke and expended shell casings were coming from."


During the Boise trial (July 1993), Gerry Spence proved from the trail of expended cartridges that William Degan, the most decorated Marshal in the U.S. Marshal Service's (USMS) 208 year history, ran in front of Larry Cooper trying to get a better shot at Kevin Harris. Not hearing the silenced Colt in the din of machine gun fire, Degen was killed. Cooper testified, "I aimed my weapon and pulled trigger. The target fell like sack of potatoes." Kevin was not hit and Degan died, albeit accidentally. The jury recognized this and completely exonerated Kevin Harris of an wrongdoing of any kind. He walked from the federal court a free man.

Rick

beerslurpy
March 19, 2006, 04:49 PM
Wait a second, the one police fatality that kicked this whole thing off was a friendly fire?

AZRickD
March 19, 2006, 05:13 PM
That is the speculation.

Rick

Fred Fuller
March 19, 2006, 05:17 PM
"These are your rules of engagement: If any adult in the compound is observed with a weapon after the surrender announcement is made, deadly force can and should be employed to neutralize the individual. If any adult male is observed with a weapon prior to the announcement, deadly force can and should be employed. If compromised by any dog, that dog can be taken out. Any subjects presenting a threat of death or grievous bodily harm, FBI rules of deadly force apply."
- p. 262, _Cold Zero: Inside the FBI Hostage Rescue Team_, by Special Agent Christopher Whitcomb. New York: Warner Books, 2001. (my transcript)

Dick Roberts, the HRT commander, requested and received these modified rules of deadly force from FBI headquarters before sending the initial sniper teams out at Ruby Ridge to establish surveillance of the Weaver "compound".

Also according to Whitcomb, Horiuchi (referred to in the book as "Hooch") stayed active on the HRT, though not as a sniper following various inquiries and hearings regarding Ruby Ridge. Again, my transcription from page 395 of the book cited above:
-------------------------------------
...in 1995... word came down that he was no longer a shooter.

"You can go and watch, if you want," they said, "but from now on, you're not allowed to carry a rifle." He still carried team leader status and responsibility for six other men, but he couldn't play with sharp objects. They might as well have cut his balls off.
-------------------------------------
I don't recall seeing anything else about "Hooch" in the book from that point on. Edited to add: the HRT deployment to Ruby Ridge started on August 21, 1992, upon hearing that the US Marshalls Service had been involved in a shooting there. It took until the next day to deploy on the site, Vicki Weaver was shot on August 22, 1992. (end edit)

Note that there was ongoing discussion at the time regarding the role of women in terrorism and their relative 'badness' compared to men. A series of interviews later resulted in the following book being published:
===================================================
_Shoot the Women First_ by Eileen Macdonald

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679415963/qid=1142804116/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-8746165-3241623?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
===================================================

lpl/nc (who made a contribution to the Boundary County, Idaho prosecutor's office when they attempted to bring Horiuchi to trial. I had heard of 'legal defense funds' being set up, I thought the prosecution needed the help in this case. Tried to get Cooper to boost the idea, far as I know he never did.)

Bigjake
March 19, 2006, 05:27 PM
lpl/nc (who made a contribution to the Boundary County, Idaho prosecutor's office when they attempted to bring Horiuchi to trial. I had heard of 'legal defense funds' being set up, I thought the prosecution needed the help in this case. Tried to get Cooper to boost the idea, far as I know he never did.)



I like the idea

A legal offence fund to help bring out of control .gov thugs to justice.

progunner1957
March 19, 2006, 05:31 PM
Is the rumor true that Lon Horiuchi lives in constant fear for his life in a kind of protective custody on a military base?If it is true, it is better than he deserves. The only military base that he should be living on is Ft. Leavenworth - home to Leavenworth Federal Penitentiary.:evil:

AZRickD
March 19, 2006, 05:52 PM
And let that be a lesson to all current and future wannabe government thugs.

Rick-out

mordechaianiliewicz
March 19, 2006, 06:00 PM
I believe the line from Silverado "A fair impartial trial followed by a first class hangin'" should be Lon Horiuchi's fate.

That being said, none of us know exactly what happened there b/c the government feels the need to lie.

So, I would say, I hope that Lon Horiuchi fears for his life. I also hope he agonizes day in and day out about the fact he killed a woman holding a baby in cold blood. But, as much as I'd love to believe that, I don't.

Look at modern law enforcement. Look at Colt advertisements for the AR-15 in the 70s. Look at them today. Look at where "tacticool" came from. Look at where it's used.

Look at how many former soldiers (including SpecOps) leave the military and go to SWAT, HRT, and SRT in various LE agencies. It's easier. You don't spend months away, fearfull for your life in a 3rd world "stani" country. And you get to come home to your wife, significant other etc. BUT you still get to break down doors, grab people, and possibly even shoot someone down.

Horiuchi was the tip of the iceberg. Cops no longer being police officers, but instead an occupying army.

Lon Horiuchi is one of those cops who isn't a peace officer anymore, but is a soldier. Hopefully, he'll never sit behind a rifle ever again, ready to kill some innocent woman in rural America.

Derby FALs
March 19, 2006, 06:35 PM
I can't find the quote, but Col. Jeff Cooper periodically takes note that Lon Horiuchi remains alive and at large.

He has a lot to say on the subject..

The Federal agent who shot Vicki Weaver in the face, deliberately, while she was unarmed and holding her child is named Lon Horiuchi. Remember that name. He is still walking around loose. That man must eventually pay for his crime, here or hereafter. Lon Horiuchi.


So now it appears that Horiuchi will walk free. The opinion of the judge was that he was "only following instructions." Several German generals were condemned to death at the Nuremburg Trials for advancing just that argument. Lon Horiuchi was either seriously incompetent in the handling of his weapon, in which case the FBI is to blame for putting him on that job; or he was callously indifferent to the deliberate taking of human life, in which case he is guilty of negligent homicide. This is, of course, assuming that what has appeared in the press is reasonably in accordance with the facts. (It may be that a great deal of material was presented at the trial which is not clear to the general public.) So here we have, in reasonably close succession, O.J. Simpson and Lon Horiuchi, reflections of a justice system which is catastrophically askew. It must be admitted in fairness that Simpson's act was committed with malice, whereas there is no evidence that Horiuchi entertained any particular hatred for Vicki Weaver. But both men walk free. The ancient Greeks had an answer to that. Its name was nemesis.


We note with some annoyance that the usually sound columnist, Joseph Sobran, has come out sympathizing for Lon Horiuchi on the grounds that Horiuchi shot Vicky Weaver "by mistake." Horiuchi says he did, Rogers says he did, Freeh says he did, Janet Reno says he did, and now Joe Sobran says he did. Let us get it straight. The only way Horiuchi could have shot Vicky Weaver by mistake would have been a circumstance in which she was standing behind an obscuring device, such as a sheet of plywood, or for that matter a bed sheet. Unless Horiuchi was an utter fool and totally incompetent with his weapon, and firing at random at the house, he could not have shot Vicky Weaver by mistake. How all those people could give credence to such a story is absolutely beyond belief!


Senator Larry Craig has taken cudgel and addressed the Attorney General a specific and public letter questioning the need for official American stormtroops. I do not see how she can avoid answering this. It will be very interesting to see what she says.
As of right now, there is a rumor to the effect that federal marshals may arrest Lon Horiuchi and deliver him to the State of Idaho. Perhaps this is only a rumor, but it certainly is a good one.

(If I keep writing this sort of thing, I guess I can expect the ninja any quiet morning about 0300.)

To the best of my knowledge and belief, Lon Horiuchi, the man who shot Vickie Weaver in the face with a
sniper rifle while she was holding her baby in her arms, is still walking around loose. If I am wrong in this
assumption, please let me know.


When one raises the issue of the free status of Lon Horiuchi, the murderer of Vickie Weaver, the surprisingly
common answer is, "Nothing can be done to him because he is a federal agent!" So now, in their own eyes,
federal agents are above the law. Several periodicals have pointed out recently that we are on our way to a
police state. From this point it appears we have already arrived.

Freshly back from Africa and from our stay in the meat locker, we discover that Janet Reno is still on the
payroll, and Lon Horiuchi is still wandering around loose. Someone should have taken care of that in our
absence.

We learn that the federal assassin Lon Horiuchi is now being afforded personal security by the state. Perhaps
the need for this man to look over his shoulder for the rest of his life is in some measure adequate punishment

This from an FBI agent who must obviously remain anonymous:
"I wasn't surprised when I heard that Horiuchi had killed Mrs. Weaver. We were in the same
class at Quantico. The man was a robot. He would do anything to please his superiors."
Well, Horiuchi is still at large. One wonders how much he pleased his superiors.

In our concentration on Lon Horiuchi, the man who shot Vicky Weaver in the face while she was holding her
baby, we must not forget that he was not the only one involved. One Richard Rogers, of the FBI hostage
rescue organization, is the man who set the rules of engagement both at the Randy Weaver ranch and at Waco.
As far as I can determine, he is the man who gave the orders that Horiuchi carried out. Richard Rogers − this
is a name to bear in mind.

For the FBI to investigate Horiuchi is somewhat like Hitler's investigating Himmler.
But no matter what Reno and Freeh and Rogers and Horiuchi may say, that case is not closed. Whether
Horiuchi committed a procedural error at Ruby Ridge is not important. What he committed was a mortal
and that sin will find him out. The only appropriate demise for this man now would seem to be the traditional
route of sepukku, with which he should be familiar. If he needs a proper knife I have one, which I will provide
to him upon request.

There are people who do not mind the fact that O.J. Simpson walks free. There are people who do not mind
the fact that Lon Horiuchi is not only not punished for his atrocity at Ruby Ridge, but he continues on the
public payroll. There are those who know who killed Vince Foster, but are not bothered by the fact that the
subject has been dropped officially. I mind those things. Do you?


In keeping track of special agent Lon Horiuchi, we note that the television people are understandably reluctant
to show his face. After killing Vicki Weaver with one round to the face up at Ruby Ridge, he was put in
charge of a sniper team which went on down to Waco. Just what a sniper team might be good for in that
action is not clear, but Horiuchi has maintained that his team never fired a shot at that time. Recently released
television coverage of that action shows four empty cartridge cases on the ground at the sniper post occupied
by Horiuchi and his team. Apparently, someone else came in after the battle and dropped the four empties at
the spot where Horiuchi was located. If he says no shots were fired, I guess no shots were fired. After all,
Agent Horiuchi is a West Point graduate, and we can trust him implicitly.


We now learn that a series of courts has fully absolved Lon Horiuchi of the murder of Vicki Weaver, on the
grounds that he was "only doing his job." A number of German war criminals offered that argument at the
Nürnberg trials, but they were hanged anyway.
So now Horiuchi walks free under no legal cloud. One wonders how carefully he watches his back.


It is a long time now since Lon Horiuchi shot Vicky Weaver in the face while she was holding her child in her arms, but that is something most people would like to forget. Horiuchi still walks free with that on his conscience. The law cannot reach him, but there are many who do not forget.

Constitutional Traitor and Commissioner of the NOPD Edward Compass resigns.

He's been ducking and weaving ever since the S HTF in NOLA.

My bet is that he's hoping we'll forget all about him.

I think not. I think his name will be remembered, right alongside Lon Horiuchi.

Worse, even.

Despite the best efforts of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, we now
have access to a photograph of Lon Horiuchi, who shot Vickie Weaver in the
face but who still has not been brought to justice. Col. Bob Brown ran it
down in a West Point yearbook and it appears on page 38 of the December
issue of Soldier of Fortune magazine. It is not very clear, and it is
twenty years old, but it is better than nothing.

Despite the venerable injunction, you can get away with murder. Consider O.J. Simpson. Consider Lon
Horiuchi. And consider those experts who did away with Vince Foster. Of course it may be that those last did
not get away with it, having been taken care of Mafia style by those in charge. But in that case those in charge
are presumably walking free − and probably in pretty high places in both Arkansas and Washington.


There are people in positions of importance today who know how Vince Foster was murdered, and who did it,
but apparently we have decided to drop that subject. And then, of course, there is Lon Horiuchi. I suppose he
has squared the matter with his conscience, but I am darned if I know how.


The presumably authentic word we get in Washington is that Horiuchi will walk free, but that the BATF is being stalked and may be torpedoed. Well, as we have mentioned before, the murderer of Nicole Simpson and the murderer of Vince Foster are walking free. We should not expect too much of our current system of jurisprudence.


We have an interesting philosophical problem here. We know how the hunter uses a rifle (though he often uses it very poorly), but what exactly does a policeman need with a rifle? The only scenario that comes to mind is that of hostage rescue, since the rifle is not a defensive weapon and the police should use it only to save the life of an innocent being held at gun point. The totally egregious use of the rifle by the law enforcement arm looms as that of Lon Horiuchi, who appears to have murdered Vicki Weaver in cold blood when he himself was in no danger, and who now walks free and draws his salary on the taxpayers.

carebear
March 19, 2006, 06:43 PM
Wait a second, the one police fatality that kicked this whole thing off was a friendly fire?

That is the speculation.

Not the only time a possible Federal blue-on-blue or shooting error kicked off the killing of suspects either. I seem to recall that the first shot at Waco was reputed to be an AD from an assault team member, and those guys on the roof/window entry team may have been "own goals" as well.

Molon Labe
March 19, 2006, 08:40 PM
I also hope he agonizes day in and day out about the fact he killed a woman holding a baby in cold blood.Not a chance.

If he had no qualms about shooting Vicki in the face, it stands to reason he would not feel agony or guilt over it.

Also... the fact that Lon Horiuchi is a murderer should not be an issue. Hundreds of people are murdered every day in this country. There are two issues of vital concern:

1 Someone presumably ordered him to do it. (Richard Rogers?)
2. Government agents are free to commit murder.

AZRickD
March 19, 2006, 11:10 PM
Well, reliving the abuses of fed.gov during the 1990s has been cathartic for me... :banghead:


And a deep, cleansing breath...

in...

out...

in...

out...

Rick

GruntII
March 19, 2006, 11:22 PM
Last I heard, (late 99, early 2000) The Butcher of Ruby Ridge had been moved to hostage negotiations and still had a protective detail on his family and possibly himself. It's possible he has pulled the pin and retired.I know I wouldn't want him as a neighbor.

ElTacoGrande
March 19, 2006, 11:29 PM
One small part of this that annoys me is that this guy, due to his retired LEO status, is allowed to CCW here in California, and I, a CA resident, am not allowed to because of the wonderfully corrupt sheriff in my county.

Also in the irony department, OJ is still allowed to own guns, but Martha Stewart is not.

glockamolee
March 20, 2006, 01:30 AM
Was he given a new I.D. due to fear of retribution?

OR....

Is he "working" overseas in some jungle/desert outpost for No Such Agency??

Husker1911
March 20, 2006, 01:45 AM
I believe in the concept of Karma, and thus believe Mr. Horiuchi has departed this earthly plane due to flesh eating bacteria, or perhaps he passed out upon a nest of fire ants....................................

Michigander
March 20, 2006, 06:35 AM
If he was following orders to "take out the woman" first, or even if he made a mistake, he would not be a very well trained sniper if he continued to lose sleep over it indefinitely.

Leatherneck
March 20, 2006, 07:55 AM
Boy, this is some ugly, ugly stuff. I won't repeat them, but the thread of thought that equates modern law enforcement with occupying military force gives pause. That attitude could well explain the not-infrequent incidents around the US of bad shoots by LEOs who are ultimately exonerated (or at least escape punishment) like Hooch. :uhoh:

TC

El Barto
March 20, 2006, 05:32 PM
For you foil-hat wearers, check out zabasearch.com and type in any name, even yours and see what it brings up. They used to have a feature were you could see a satellite photo of the address you are looking for with just a mouse click, but since so many folks complained, you have to do a little extra work.

My whole life is on there, including my current phone number, which isn’t even under my name, first or last!

Is it paranoia if it is true?

mrmeval
March 20, 2006, 05:45 PM
At one time I'd poison the personal information databases. I've not bothered to recently as there is so much information you already have to have specifics to even find someone.

George Hill
March 20, 2006, 05:47 PM
Just idle thought... if your a freak like Weaver and you surround yourself with Anti Government types and deal with illegal stuff like sawed off shotguns, and respond to authorities coming to talk to you about that with a rifle in your hand... You might be inviting trouble you really didn't want.
It's sad about the Mom holding the kid... it really is. But it wasn't Lon's fault he was called up for this mess. And since not one person here on this board was sitting behind Lon's rifle scope at the time he pulled the trigger - we have no idea what he saw or what was going through his head.
Innocent until Proven Guilty... It applies to the FBI Agents as much as it applies to those they go to arrest.

ElTacoGrande
March 20, 2006, 05:53 PM
Well, that Zabasearch found an "L. Horiuchi" in Honolulu, but I somehow doubt it's him (there were a bunch of other Horiuchis in Hawaii also). I guess if I paid the $29 to get full info I would find out (based on age or other info maybe). I'm sure this guy knows that many people are aware of (and outraged over) Ruby Ridge and regard him as a murderer and so he probably keeps a low profile.

Innocent until Proven Guilty... It applies to the FBI Agents as much as it applies to those they go to arrest.

Certainly true. You can't come to a real conclusion on such things without detailed knowledge, like the kind of information a jury gets. I certainly haven't reviewed any of the documents from that, so all I really have on the subject are partially-informed opinions.

Don't Tread On Me
March 20, 2006, 06:24 PM
what you are seeing are not actions taken to maximize distrust of police, what you are seeing is the adversarial system ad absurdum, the police as against the public rather than as public servants. The objective is to subdue all resistance to the policymaker, either directly or by example to others.
It is the logical outcome of a free society operating under unjust laws. The people do not comply willingly because the laws were not made for their benefit. Logically, the manner of enforcement is also indifferent to the effect on the citizenry.

Quoted for truth and accuracy.

No truer words have ever been spoken around here. +1. Florida boys represent!

Anyhow, I think that is taking it mildly in a way. I think that the Federal government downright instigates conflict. They want to provoke you to make the first move (in defending your own life) then to portray that as criminal force and then squash you. All over unconstitutional laws, and made-up crimes. I mean, remember those religious nuts in Philadelphia? Sure they were whackos like the Davidians, but was it really necessary to drop C4 explosives onto them from a helicopter? Was it really justified to burn the Davidians to death after 8 hours of CS gassing? Does anyone see this as excessive force? Forget the force, does anyone see the government intervention as unjustified?

How does this serve ME? The folks at Ruby Ridge, Mt Carmel or in Philadelphia did NOTHING to me or anyone else. I don't see why the Feds have this urge to "protect" me from these types of people. It is all about maintaining the illusion of control and power. Control in this nation is so fragile that any challenge to authority must be completely obliterated in a very brutal and public way. Otherwise, the status-quo would certainly change. Imagine for a second if most American's actually started to believe that if they band together they can reform the government by rejecting unconstitutional taxes, by rejecting unconstitutional laws etc...Government cannot possibly have that. Revenue and control is at stake. Most people are all isolated and demoralized. Everyone believes that if they act, they will be singled out and destroyed. Everyone believes that the situation is hopeless. This is exactly what the government depends on. It's actually worse, people have been lied to for so long they actually believe it is beneficial to them that the government actually acts in this way. When a small group minds their own business and goes about life according to their own way, not the government's the perfect opportunity to make an example out of someone is there. A chance to project force, a chance to propagandize and demonize the victims into being the bad-guys.

It is as Beerslurpy says, it is no longer a "we serve the people" dynamic, it is an "us vs. them"...Talk to anyone who works for the Feds long enough and you'll detect this attitude...

publius
March 20, 2006, 06:24 PM
...deal with illegal stuff like sawed off shotguns, and respond to authorities coming to talk to you about that with a rifle in your hand...
Didn't the feds ask him to saw off the shotgun for money? It's a stupid law anyway. Authorities who don't want to see my guns shouldn't shoot my dogs.

F4GIB
March 20, 2006, 06:25 PM
The proper wording is "Not guilty until proven beyond a reasonable doubt." Courts determine whether a person is "guilty" or "not guilty" of specific charges by a statutory burder of proof. Actual Innocence is seldom relevant.

That's why the not guilty O. J. still had to pay $34 million in civil damages (because the civil burden of proof is preponderance of the evidence, a much lower hurdle).

Don't Tread On Me
March 20, 2006, 06:50 PM
Didn't the feds ask him to saw off the shotgun for money?

Sting operations are morally the same as prosecuting dishonesty.


I was watching FOX news about a month ago when they were discussing the Natalie Holloway missing girl / Aruba thing.


The government-media (FOX, CNN all the same garbage) all had segments about how Aruban law is so screwed up. The guests, who are put on the show to disagree with eachother, were instead all agreeing how Aruban law is flawed and unjust. They were all bashing Aruba and their system.


How do you figure? It's because they're all a bunch of JBT-loving, statist, big-government advocates. They love the idea of a police-state and oppressive law-enforcement. That's why these journalist-thugs love American law, and despise the more just Aruban law. Because it forces the government to actually have a case against a person, not to witchhunt them.


Martha Stewart was put into prison for lying to government. Not for insider trading, for lying to the government. WOW! God forbid we lie to our masters! To our superiors that we should bow down to! It isn't a crime for me to lie to a fellow citizen, but to the government - yes! Because they are master.


The most disgusting part is how she went to jail for lying about a crime that never happened. Remember, they didn't charge her for insider trading. No charge, no crime. So how can you lie about a crime that was never even a crime in the first place? Hoorah for America!

Then we have Clinton, who IS the government, part of the elite..immune from the law unlike us peasants...who is caught lying under oath..ZERO difference from what Martha did - but he didn't serve a day in prison. Equal application of the law?? HA! Yeah right. Yay America!

We criticized the Soviet system because in Communist Russia, the law was not a set of guidelines for operating a civil society, but rather a weapon that was used by the government against its citizens (see Russia as it is, by matthew maly) We're WORSE today. We're the biggest hypocrites.


Aruba law regarding the Holloway case is superior to American law. In America, the government can LIE in any way or form it chooses to you in order to make a case against you. Yet, you cannot lie to the government on any level whatsoever without committing a felony. How is this just? In Aruba, you can lie to the government all you want. That's how it should be! According to OUR system...if the government has PROOF then so be it, if they don't - they don't. NO crime, period. Aren't you innocent until proven guilty? Not anymore. If the government has no evidence, no proof, no witnesses..nothing, then I'm sorry - there's no case. But in our country, the government finds a way to find you guilty from a completely different unrelated angle by getting you to slip up and lie - by them lying to you in the first place.

Government playbook:
No case based on facts, proof or evidence? NO PROBLEM - plan B, put them away on something totally unrelated by busting them for lying.


God Bless America. And then you wonder why 90% of the world thinks we are a**holes. We are not more free, we are not more just. Those are just lies we are told from the day we enter government-run education.


This is basically the same dynamic as what happened at Ruby Ridge, Waco and all the other evil attrocities of our gestapo-government. You think I am over-reacting? The only thing keeping these goose-steppers from going all out on us is probably the small deterrance we can offer with small arms. They are all absorbed into their power-trip and they fantasize about the opportunities they get to use force. For the time being, they'd rather just pick on the radicals that the masses can be made to loathe by media manipulation while we good Americans slowly forfeit every last right we have decade by decade.


Water doesn't wear down the stone by force, but by persistence.

swampsniper
March 20, 2006, 06:59 PM
To anyone who is not familiar with Judge Kozinski.
We could use 10,000 more of him.


"Judge Kozinski dissented, writing that in an effort to pro-
tect Horiuchi, whose actions were patently unconstitutional,
the majority opinion materially weakened the standard for the
use of deadly force that heretofore had constrained law
enforcement personnel in the Ninth Circuit".
---------------------------------------------------------------

The prospect of tyranny may not grab the headlines the way vivid stories of gun crime routinely do. But few saw the Third Reich coming until it was too late. The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed—where the government refuses to stand for reelection and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get to make only once.

JUDGE ALEX KOZINSKI

publius
March 20, 2006, 07:33 PM
We criticized the Soviet system because in Communist Russia, the law was not a set of guidelines for operating a civil society, but rather a weapon that was used by the government against its citizens (see Russia as it is, by matthew maly) We're WORSE today.I never lived under Soviet communism, but from what I've heard, it was worse than what we have.

Art Eatman
March 20, 2006, 08:06 PM
Leatherneck, some "purely Art's opinion" stuff:

Consder the political views which create a Horiuchi. First off is the idea that we need a group who are trained to kill, in a non-military situation. Okay, I think we can see occasions when it's valid. But then consider the views of those who decided to do all that surveillance without trying a normal arrest. Consider the idea that all that para-military activity was truly, really needed all around his home. To me, that's a BS idea. And then send in a kill-squad?

And back up and consider that as with Waco, Weaver was under suspicion for disagreeing. He disagreed with the idea of spying on a group of people. That's all. Then he was entrapped on the shotgun deal. Then the court clerk screwed up the paperwork on the court date. And then some Gestapo-minded cretin in WashDC decides all that expenditure was rational!

Still, it's the body of law created by those who want only round pegs in only round holes--"Thou shalt obey authority and never disagree."--which creates the militarized structure of certain "police" entities. Weaver was a square peg.

Some individuals seek to hire into this system and are willing LEO accomplices to the corruption. We're indeed fortunate that they are a distinct minority.

(All the above ain't really well organized, but I ain't perfect...)

Art

ebd10
March 20, 2006, 08:55 PM
George:
Usually I agree with you but, on this one, there's some serious flaws in your line of thought.
if your a freak like Weaver and you surround yourself with Anti Government types

The you've done nothing wrong (Pastor Niemoller and all that...) Even when LE comes to you and tries to get you to infiltrate "fringe" organizations for them, and you refuse. you've still done nothing wrong. Weaver was a Green Beanie, so he wasn't your average militia type. He was someone that subscribed to an unpopular philosophy and tried to live it.

and deal with illegal stuff like sawed off shotguns,

Didn't do anything that anyone knows of until the FBI showed up asking him to. According to everything I've read and heard, he only did it because he needed to put groceries on the table. When the kids are hungry, common sense often takes a back seat to necessity. Of course, we'll never know the whole story because he never went to court for that incident.

and respond to authorities coming to talk to you about that with a rifle in your hand...

Perhaps foolish, but unless he was threatening them, he did nothing illegal.

You might be inviting trouble you really didn't want.

Perhaps he, like millions of other Americans up to that point, never thought that wanting to be left alone would result in SWAT teams, firefights, and the death of his loved ones at the hands of the authorities.

But it wasn't Lon's fault he was called up for this mess. And since not one person here on this board was sitting behind Lon's rifle scope at the time he pulled the trigger - we have no idea what he saw or what was going through his head.

Point granted. But I have to wonder about the claim that he "missed" since FBI snipers are trained at Quantico at the Marine Sniper School (the finest marksmen in the world). Especially since he missed by 10 inches at 200 yards. That's quite a blunder by someone who is held to the standards that FBI snipers are supposed to be held.

Innocent until Proven Guilty... It applies to the FBI Agents as much as it applies to those they go to arrest.

Unless you're covered by "Sovereign Immunity" in which case, whether you murdered someone or not is moot. The truth shall never be known.

Art Eatman
March 20, 2006, 09:30 PM
George, I've never, ever, read anything, anywhere--nor was anything ever said in the Congressional hearings--about Weaver being any sort of "dealer" in guns. He was approached by federal agents and asked to do the chop-job.

All descriptions of his racial views indicate he merely wanted to live away from other-than-white ethnic groups. He refused to become involved with the Aryan Nation people, after attending (IIRC) one meeting. He was not at all a supremacist. Heck, even Time magazine agreed about that. :)

As far as any onus on Horiuchi, the trial testimony about who was where, who was moving from Point A to Point B and all of that, and how the shot was taken makes it pretty easy for any experienced and skilled rifleman to form a harsh opinion.

Art

Henry Bowman
March 20, 2006, 10:32 PM
Of course, we'll never know the whole story because he never went to court for that incident.Actually, he did and was acquitted on the basis of entrapment. Gerry Spence successfully defended him.

publius
March 21, 2006, 07:00 AM
But I have to wonder about the claim that he "missed" since FBI snipers are trained at Quantico at the Marine Sniper School (the finest marksmen in the world). Especially since he missed by 10 inches at 200 yards. That's quite a blunder by someone who is held to the standards that FBI snipers are supposed to be held.It is pretty unbelievable. I wonder how many professional snipers have "missed" by that margin at that range?

I'm just an untrained plinker, but I can get that close w/open sights. Never cared much for scopes, but I'm starting to see the value as my eyes age...

Leatherneck
March 21, 2006, 07:52 AM
Leatherneck, some "purely Art's opinion" stuff: Well, Art: I couldn't agree more.

I remember as a kid, even the sin of calling a LEO a "cop" would have earned me a quick rebuke or swat on the backside. Let alone any transgression of a more serious nature. Of course also in those days, many offenses now viewed nearly as capital crimes were merely "kids being kids." Then, it seemed, the LEOs truly were sworn public servants with no agenda beyond keeping the peace and rounding up the truly bad members of society.

Nowadays it seems the public servant idea is lost (admittedly, much of big and little government shares this trait) to many law enforcement individuals and organizations, and they have become a force unto themselves. Answerable to the public? Hardly. Agenda-driven? Often, it seems. We've lost something good there, and I for one have no idea if it can be gotten back.

TC

Don Gwinn
March 21, 2006, 08:28 AM
Well, yeah, BUT. . . .

It's easy for someone my age to hear stories about the old days and how the police back then were just dedicated public servants, not tactical military wannabes.

But how do you square that with the stories about guys like Charlie Askins? How did a lot of the gangsters of the 1920's and 1930's meet their ends--at the hands of those caring and nurturing law enforcement officers, often in what amounted to paramilitary ambushes.

How many people got beatings from police officers back then for no better reason than to adjust their attitudes? How many people got it just for being black? How many officers back then turned a blind eye when crimes happened against people they didn't care about, like blacks?

I'm not saying police today are perfect, far from it. I'm sure in a lot of ways a lot of officers are more military-minded than cops used to be. But let's not kid ourselves that all the changes are for the worse.




And George, it's good that you can keep an open mind on this, but I have to disagree. I think the lack of any evidence at all on the shotgun charge shows that they didn't really intend to take him to trial on that one--when they decided to sting him, it was purely for the sake of entrapping him so he could be used. I find that repugnant and a lot more dangerous than a couple of short shotguns.

As for answering the police with a rifle in his hands, that seems to be the way the Weavers greeted everyone at their home, which was after all a cabin in the woods of Idaho. It might have been dumb, but it was his right to do it. It was his land and his rifle.


All that said, I can't imagine cutting off shotguns for someone else. If you think it through, if you're not a gunsmith installing a choke and sights or something, then what is the money being offered for? You're being paid to take the risk of the illegal action. There's no other reason for someone to pay you any premium at all for a hack job they could do with their own saw in five minutes. I know the agent told Weaver he was going to resell these, and maybe Weaver thought that meant he was going to sell them to people who didn't know guns and would think this was some exotic modification. Just as likely is the possibility that Weaver believed the guns were going to be sold to Bloods and Crips (which might be essentially the same thing, now I think of it.)

The bottom line, however, is that here you have the collision of two worldviews. The Weavers, it seems clear, fervently believed that they would be hunted and persecuted by their government sooner or later.
The government's biggest blunder was in demonstrating that they weren't paranoid, that it really was going to persecute them. They weren't blameless, but they didn't deserve what they got.

Anyone who thinks it was inevitable that "freaks" like the Weavers got what was coming to them would do well to remember that it wasn't that long ago that the "freaks" in this country were the ones who believed the opposite of the Weavers (namely that racial mixing is not a sin, all men are created equal, and religion should inspire, not lock you into destructive patterns.) In other words, people like you and I and the majority of Americans today.

Back then, the anti-racists got roughed up, abused, persecuted and sometimes shot or lynched.
Nowadays, it happens to racists too, which I suppose is meant to be taken as progress.

TallPine
March 21, 2006, 09:38 AM
As for answering the police with a rifle in his hands, that seems to be the way the Weavers greeted everyone at their home, which was after all a cabin in the woods of Idaho. It might have been dumb, but it was his right to do it. It was his land and his rifle.

Depending on the time of day and circumstances, that is how I may "greet" you if you drop by my place unannounced. But since I always have a revolver on my hip, I don't usually meet people with a rifle in hand.

Basically, I regard all unrecognized visitors as potential hostiles until I determine otherwise. Yet only once so far have I had to order somebody off my land (not at gunpoint, but it was getting awfully close to that:uhoh: ).

Husker1911
March 21, 2006, 11:15 AM
"Anyone who thinks it was inevitable that "freaks" like the Weavers got what was coming to them.............."

As my wife and I watched the news "stories" coming out of Waco in 1993, she bought into the government's version of the truth hook, line, & sinker. I'd watch the same broadcast, and say to her, "You believe that?" It caused much division between us, and we divorced in 1994. But she believed "those people got what was coming to them!" I pointed out there were women following their spouses, and innocent children among them. It didn't matter to her. I'm pleased she's an "Ex!"

45Badger
March 21, 2006, 12:41 PM
I guess I don't see the point of this thread.

Our government (fed, state, and local) screws up all the time. Citizens (good, bad, and anywhere in between)screw things up too. MOST of the time gov't and citizens do more good than harm, and don't create big screw ups.

Sometimes they don't, and we get explosive problems. Sometimes those screw ups collide and get all blown out of control, with tragic results, and leave us with bad and sour memories. This leads to lots of poisonous positioning and emotions that get blown all out of proportion and (again, control). That in turn leads to whack-job "patriots" blowing up federal buildings and killing 168 (or so) innocents. An ugly vicious circle, or death spiral if you ask me.

Those of you who want Lon H's head on a spit- why not post a poll, and publicly state your position on the appropriate punishment he should receive (prison? execution? murder? suicide?) along with your name, address, and phone number. I'm sure a few true and brave believers would participate fully and honestly, but the majority will continue to hide behind their keyboards.

Ruby Ridge and Waco were tragic clusterf%#@s, with more than enough blame, stupidity, poor leadership and planning to go around. What purpose does grinding this axe serve? How about real solutions to the issues and problems (sorry patriotic knuckle-draggers - lynching Janet Reno and Lon Horiuchi does not count as a solution).

How do you as an individual want to be treated by your government? Some bright person said (or wrote) that we get the government we deserve. Sometimes that sounds depressing, but I think it's true.

carebear
March 21, 2006, 12:49 PM
How do you as an individual want to be treated by your government?

I want my Constitutional protections upheld by my government.

I want individuals, private or in government, to be held accountable for their actions, to be tried in a public court by a jury of their peers, not allowed to retire in ignomy after commiting what appears to be a murder.

I want the system applied equally, the way it was designed to be.

By "rehashing" this old news I am asserting this was not done and that omission should be corrected. No individual gets a pass on homicide because "it happened so long ago".

Art Eatman
March 21, 2006, 12:57 PM
"But how do you square that with the stories about guys like Charlie Askins? How did a lot of the gangsters of the 1920's and 1930's meet their ends--at the hands of those caring and nurturing law enforcement officers, often in what amounted to paramilitary ambushes."

Even within his own milieu, Askins was an anomaly. The systemic racism tolerated him. As for the gangsters, the alternative to ambush was? You're talking about folks who had already demonstrated a willingness to kill without provocation.

Don, I think that what we're seeing today, at least on the part of the feds, is that a greater percentage of the public meets your "How many people got beatings from police officers back then for no better reason than to adjust their attitudes? How many people got it just for being black? How many officers back then turned a blind eye when crimes happened against people they didn't care about, like blacks?"

As for attitudes, what else, really, caused the willingness to use Weaver? People like him have the "wrong attitude". As for blind eyes, consider the situation on our southern border, right now. I guess in part you could call it reverse racism, or maybe it's the lack of voting strength in the low-population areas there. More votes in blue cities than out in red ranching country.

I dunno. It seems to me that where once it was mostly minorities who were targeted, now it's everybody. Less to do with color, and more to do with disagreement with government. Big Nanny is becoming an ever more strict disciplinarian...

Art

Leatherneck
March 21, 2006, 01:05 PM
Big Nanny is becoming an ever more strict disciplinarian... That, I'm beginning to believe, is the biggest problem of all. The Government has become a self-sustaining beast and does not need us any more, except in the abstract--the great unwashed and brainwashed masses.

TC

Carl N. Brown
March 21, 2006, 01:11 PM
From the Department of Justice
Office of Professional Responsibility
Bermann Commission Task Force Report

aka

Department of Justice Report on Internal Review
Regarding The Ruby Ridge Hostage Situation and
Shootings by Law Enforcement Personnel

or just

DoJ OPR Report:

The Rules of Engagement

....At 3:30 p.m. on August 22, HRT sniper/observers, along with
members of the Marshals Service SOG, began their ascent to the
cabin. Before their departure, they were briefed on the Rules of
Engagement, which provided that:

1. If any adult male is observed with a weapon prior to the
announcement, deadly force can and should be employed, if the
shot can be taken without endangering any children.

2. If any adult in the compound is observed with a weapon after
the surrender announcement is made, and is not attempting to
surrender, deadly force can and should be employed to neutralize
the individual.

3. If compromised by any animal, particularly the dogs, that
animal should be eliminated.

4. Any subjects other than Randall Weaver, Vicki Weaver, Kevin
Harris, presenting threats of death or grievous bodily harm, the
FBI rules of deadly force are in effect. Deadly force can be
utilized to prevent the death or grievous bodily injury to
oneself or that of another.

No shots had been fired since the previous day, but, while the
HRT members were moving to positions overlooking the cabin, other
observers reported to FBI headquarters that the subjects were
outside the cabin. FBI Headquarters reminded the field commander
that the Rules of Engagement would apply. By 5:45 p.m., the
sniper/observers reached their positions. The engines of the
personnel carriers at the command post below were audible. An
unarmed, young female ran from the cabin to a rocky outcropping
and returned to the cabin. Within a minute, an unarmed male was
seen on the cabin's back deck. About ten minutes later, a
helicopter carrying HRT personnel began an observation mission.
When the helicopter's engine was started, the female seen earlier
and two males ran from the cabin to the outcropping. The last
person to emerge was carrying a rifle. Sniper/observer Horiuchi
identified him as Kevin Harris.

A few seconds later Horiuchi saw a person he believed to be
Harris near an outbuilding known as the "birthing shed." The man
appeared to be scanning above and behind the snipers for the
helicopter. Horiuchi believed that he was trying to position
himself to shoot at the helicopter from the more protected side
of the shed. Horiuchi fired one shot as the man suddenly moved
along the side of the shed out of sight. When Horiuchi fired, the
man's back was toward Horiuchi and the helicopter. Because the
man moved unexpectedly, Horiuchi assumed he missed. The man he
aimed at was not Harris, but Weaver, who was slightly wounded.
Harris and Weaver have maintained that they had no aggressive
purpose in leaving the cabin and that Weaver was opening the door
to the shed to look at the body of his son.

After ten or twenty seconds Horiuchi saw the target of his first
shot following the other two people as they ran to the cabin. The
first two entered the cabin through an open door. Horiuchi fired,
aiming slightly in front of the last running man. The bullet went
through the curtained window of the open door, fatally wounding
Vicki Weaver and seriously injuring Kevin Harris. The sniper
testified that he did not know that Vicki Weaver was standing
behind the door.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=37371&stc=1&d=1142963940

When Commander Rogers, who had been aboard the HRT helicopter,
learned of the shootings, he and an FBI negotiator went in a
personnel carrier to the cabin to make a surrender announcement
and to begin negotiations by leaving a telephone. There was no
response. A few hours later, due to deteriorating weather
conditions, the snipers left their positions and returned to the
command post where Rogers debriefed them....

. . . . .

....Most significant is the testimony of Lon Horiuchi, the
sniper/observer who eventually fired at members of the
Weaver/Harris group. Horiuchi conceded that the Rules were
different from those in the FBI manual and the Rules under which
the HRT usually operated. He had never before been asked to
operate under such Rules, which differed from the standard deadly
force policy in that "the decision that we were already in danger
had already been made for us prior to going on the hill."(619)
Horiuchi testified that this was the first time he had been asked
to apply Rules that differed from the standard deadly force
policy. Under the latter, he could not shoot a person, unless
that person posed a threat to his or another person's safety, and
the decision as to whether a person posed a threat was left to
Horiuchi. Under the new Rules, the decision that there was a
threat had already been made.(620) Horiuchi acknowledged that,
under the Rules, he could and should shoot any adult male, if he
had an opportunity.(621)

619. Trial Testimony of Lon Horiuchi, June 3, 1993, at 164- 65.

620. id. at 166-67.

621. id. at 172-73. He emphasized that all the snipers were
present when the Rules of Engagement were discussed:

The individuals that went up on the hill were present when the
Rules of Engagement were discussed:

The individuals that went up on the hill were pre-briefed by me
and Mr. Love, the other team leader, to ensure that the
individuals that we had under our control were well-briefed on
the rules of engagement.

id. at 178.


DoJ OPR Chronology of Events: Saturday, August 22, 1992

At approximately 5:58 p.m., HRT sniper/observer Lon Horiuchi
fires round which wounds Randy Weaver. Seconds later, Horiuchi fires
a round which kills Vicki Weaver and wounds Kevin Harris.

At 6:30 p.m., an Armored Personnel Carrier ("APC") arrives at the
cabin area. FBI hostage negotiator delivers message over loud
speaker that there are arrest warrants for Randy Weaver and Kevin
Harris and asks Weaver to accept negotiations telephone.

Carl N. Brown
March 21, 2006, 01:14 PM
The 22 August 1992 Shootings

{NOTE: Redacted information is here labeled "GARRITY," or "G.J."
Under U.S. Supreme Court ruling in GARRITY v. New Jersey (1967).
government employees who provide information during an
administrative investigation must be granted immunity from
criminal prosecution. Apparently, such testimony was redacted
from the DoJ OPR Report.)


HRT helicopter pilot, Frank Costanza, flew six reconnaissance
missions on August 22, 1992, from the staging area at the command
post to an area above and around the hilltop where the Weaver
cabin was located. He believed that the purpose of the flights
was to afford FBI, Marshals Service, and U.S. Attorney's Office
personnel the opportunity to assess the area and the terrain
around the Weaver residence. Costanza tried to avoid hostile fire
during the flights by remaining at least 200 yards away from the
cabin. He described the weather conditions as a mixture of rain
and snow and noted that visibility was limited.(634)

According to Glenn, the helicopter was used to fly over the area
to identify possible sites for the sniper/observer teams. Aerial
operations were severely hampered by inclement weather. The low
cloud ceiling made it impossible to operate the helicopters out
of range of the weapons thought to be in the Weaver cabin.
Accordingly, the helicopters were utilized at low altitudes, and
they weaved "around the crisis site.....to avoid being an obvious
target." Glenn took one flight that was within range of a rifle
shot, but the helicopter never flew directly over the Weaver
cabin.(635)

A member of the Marshals Service SOG reported that, while he was
at the command post area on Saturday, August 22, he saw the
helicopter fly toward the cabin and return very quickly. He heard
that the Weavers had come out of the cabin and had acted in a
hostile manner toward the helicopter but that they had not fired
at the helicopter.(636)

f. Placement of HRT Sniper/Observers in Area Surrounding the
Weaver Cabin

Because of the rugged terrain and deteriorating weather
conditions, HRT sniper/observers began arriving at positions on
the ridge overlooking the Weaver cabin approximately two to two
and one half hours after setting out from the command
post/staging area.(637)

At 5:07 p.m., the HRT sniper/observer team designated as Sierra
4, of "S-4," arrived at its position. this team consisted of Lon
Horiuchi and Dale Monroe. At 5:20 p.m., the HRT team designated
Sierra 2, consisting of Edward Wenger and Warren Bamford, arrived
at its position. At 5:52 p.m., Sierra 3, consisting of Jerome
Barker and Christopher Curran, arrived at its position. Between
5:52 p.m. and 5:57 p.m., S-1, consisting of HRT members
Christopher Whitcomb, Roger Love, and Mark Tilton, arrived at its
position.(638)

Horiuchi's "Sierra 4" position was the closest of the four
positions, almost due north of the cabin in a line almost
parallel to the front wall. He was at a slight angle above the
cabin, approximately 646 feet from the front door and
approximately 579 feet from the outbuilding known as the
"birthing shed." There was a ravine between Horiuchi and the
cabin.(639) Horiuchi could see the top of the front porch of
the cabin and straight through the porch. He could see the front
of the door as it opened and when it was in an open position.
Horiuchi could not see the front door when it was closed, nor
could he see into the cabin. He could also see the deck at the
back of the cabin.(640)

g. Circumstances Involving the Two Rifle Shots Taken by HRT
Member Lon Horiuchi

(1) The First Shot

At approximately 5:45 p.m., Horiuchi saw an unarmed, young
female, slight of build, with a ponytail, run from the front of
the Weaver cabin toward a rocky outcropping.

(G.J.)(641)

(GARRITY)(642)

After viewing this female with the naked eye, Horiuchi observed
her through his rifle scope and determined that she was a child.
Although he could have fired at her, he did not because "the
female was not armed at that time and (he) was assuming she was a
child because of the size of the stature."(643) Horiuchi could
not recall whether the front door was open when the child was
outside the cabin, but after she returned to the cabin, the door
was closed.(644)

Within a minute after the girl returned to the cabin, Horiuchi
observed an unarmed male on the back deck. The man moved to the
back corner of the deck where ponchos or blankets were hanging on
a string. "It seemed like he just felt them to see if they were
dry and then he went back in."(645) The man was in Horiuchi's
vision for perhaps ten seconds, and, although Horiuchi could have
both fired and hit the person, he did not because "the individual
did not appear to be armed, there was nothing in his hand, and I
did not see any weapons around or on his person."(646) HRT
sniper.observer Whitcomb, from his Sierra-1 position, the highest
and farthest away from the Weaver cabin of the four positions,
could vaguely observe this individual on the back porch.(647)
The other HRT sniper/observers did not report that they saw a man
on the back porch.

At 5:57 p.m., the HRT helicopter took off for its sixth
observation mission of the day. HRT Commander Rogers, Marshals
Service Deputy Director Smith, Marshals Service SOG Commander
Haynes, and HRT pilot Frank Costanza were aboard.(649) Haynes
observed someone outside the cabin, but he could not identify the
person or see whether the person was armed.(650) Rogers and
Smith recall that someone aboard the helicopter reported seeing
two persons outside the cabin, armed with rifles, although none
of the other people in the helicopter recalls observing anyone
outside the cabin. About the time the helicopter landed, Costanza
recalls hearing radio reports that two shots had been fired.(652)

Horiuchi heard the helicopter and the armored personnel carriers
start their engines, and he saw the helicopter take off from the
command post to the left of the Weaver cabin, circle to his left
and out of his sight.(653) Within five to ten seconds after
the helicopter engine started, Horiuchi saw two males and the
female he had seen earlier come out of the front door of the
cabin and run toward the "rocky outcropping" a defensive position
near the front of the cabin.(654) (G.J.)

(G.J.)(655)(656)(657)

Horiuchi saw the three people run behind the "birthing shed,"a
wooden building close to the cabin and disappear from his view.
Horiuchi focused on the person he believed to be Harris because
he was carrying a "shoulder weapon" at "port arms."(658)

(G.J.)(659)

and because the person was not making a threatening movement,(660)

(G.J.)(661)

Jerome Barker at the Sierra 3 position saw two adult males and
one adult female, carrying "long barreled weapons," move from the
cabin toward the birthing shed.(662) He perceived their
movements as rapid, evasive, and indicative of a confrontational
posture.(663) He lost sight of the second male who exited the
cabin, and he saw the other male and the female move toward his
position and the Sierra 4 position. He lost sight of these people
as they entered a ravine, less than two hundred yards from
Barker's position. Barker prepared to "encounter" the two
individuals whom he considered a threat.(664)

Horiuchi continued to concentrate on the person who had rounded
the rear corner of the birthing shed. As he came back into view,
Horiuchi believed that the man was the armed individual he had
initially seen running from the cabin.(665) The man picked up
a stick and appeared to be poking at the ground and looking up
above and to the right of Horiuchi where Horiuchi sensed that the
helicopter was flying.(666)

(GARRITY)(667)

When the person reappeared at the side of the shed from which he
had disappeared, he held his weapon at high port and scanned
above and behind Horiuchi's position. He seemed to be looking for
the helicopter. The person was "watching the helicopter, and at
times he would kind of bring his weapon up and (Horiuchi)
perceiv(ed) that perhaps he was trying to get a shot off."(668)

(669)(GARRITY)

Horiuchi fired one shot, just as the man suddenly moved along the
side of the birthing shed out of sight.

When Horiuchi shot, the man was at the corner of the shed, with
his back toward Horiuchi.

(GARRITY)(670)

Horiuchi "assumed that he was raising (his arm) to grab
inside the building to spin himself around the corner."(671)
Horiuchi acknowledged that when he shot he was aiming at the
man's back.(672)

Horiuchi assumed that he had hit the man or the edge of the
birthing shed.(673) After he fired, the person "continued to
move around the corner of the birthing shed, so -- without any
effect, it didn't seem like he was hit at all, so that's why my
assumption was that I had missed."(674)

Horiuchi assumed that the person at whom he had fired was Kevin
Harris.(675) In fact, Horiuchi shot Randy Reaver. After the
first shot, Horiuchi decided that he would shoot at this person
again, if he got the opportunity.(676)

Harris has said that he, Randy Weaver, and Sara Weaver left the
cabin with rifles and that he went to the rocks near the cabin to
retrieve a battery, while Randy and Sara Weaver went to the
birthing shed to see Sammy Weaver's body. After hearing a shot,
Harris ran to the birthing shed where Weaver exclaimed, "I'm
shot."(677)

Randy Weaver stated:

Kevin, Sara and I (Randy) left the house to check the North
perimeter. We didn't see anything so I (R) was going into the
guest shed where Sam was to see him one last time. As I (R)
reached up to unlatch the door I was shot from the rear and hit
in the upper right arm."(678)

(2) The Second Shot

According to Horiuchi, after ten to twenty seconds, the man he
thought he had initially shot at came back into his view, joined
by the other male and the female. Horiuchi observed the male and
female run toward the cabin trailed by nine steps by the man
Horiuchi thought had been the target of his first shot.
The first two people disappeared behind the open door, and,
Horiuchi assumed, went inside the cabin. Horiuchi had determined
after the first shot that he "was going to shoot at that
individual again" because:

I believed he was the same individual that had attempted to shoot
. . . at the helicopter, and therefore, I assumed that he was
moving back to the house to get a more protected location inside
the house and I didn't want him back in the house. . . .
(K)nowing that the children were inside the house, that would
have been my last opportunity to shoot him before he got into the
house because I probably would not have shot at anyone inside the
house for fear of shooting the children.....(H)e would have been
more protected inside the house and he could have shot at either
me or my fellow agents or the helicopter still flying around at
that location, probably knowing that we couldn't shoot back in
there without harming some of the children.(679)

Horiuchi fired as Harris approached the porch. Harris was
reaching out with his left hand toward the door and taking a last
step to the doorway, appearing to be holding the door open or
moving someone out of the way.

(GARRITY)(680)

Horiuchi was leading the running target, that is, aiming slightly
in front of him as he ran, so that the target subject would, in
effect, run into the bullet. The cross hairs of the rifle's scope
were on the edge of the door or just on the wood portion of the
door.(681) The door was fully open, and Horiuchi could see the
entire front face of the door, except for the bottom portion. At
the time of the shot, the target had his weapon in his right hand
and was reaching out with his left hand.(682)

Horiuchi saw the individual flinch as if he had been hit and
disappear into the doorway. The man reached like he had been
"punched" or hit on the side; he fell behind the door.(683)

Afterwards, Horiuchi heard a female scream for about 30
seconds.(684) He assumed that the female was screaming because Harris
had been hit.(685) In fact, Vicki Weaver had been fatally shot.
Horiuchi assumed that the individuals preceding the person at
whom he shot had gone inside the cabin. He has testified that he
did not see anyone standing behind the door when he shot and that
he did not intend to shoot Vicki Weaver.(686)

. . . . . . .

FOOTNOTES

634. FD-302 Interview of Frank Constanza, September 10, 1992,
at 1.

635. Glenn Sworn Statement, January 12, 1994 at 22-23.

636. FD-302 Interview of Luke Adler, January 7, 1994, at 1. 637.
Shooting Incident Report, September 30, 1992, at 2.

638. HRT Sniper Log, August 22, 1992, at 1. Unless otherwise
noted, times specified in that log are Pacific Daylight Savings
Time.

639. Upon arrival at this position, Horiuchi took out his rain
jacket because it had begun to rain. He positioned his rifle
through the limbs of a small pine tree. His weapon was a
Remington, Model 700 rifle which has a fixed Unertyl, ten power
telescope sight. The weapon fires a .308 calibre, match grade 168
grain bullet.

640. (G.J.) Horiuchi Trial Testimony, June 3, 1993, at 52-57.

641. (G.J.)

642. (GARRITY)
At trial, he said that the female stayed outside the cabin "two of
three minutes, I'm not sure." Horiuchi Trial Testimony, June 3, 1993,
at 63-64.

643. id. at 64

644. id. at 64-65

645. id. at 66.

646. id. at 66-67

647. Sworn Statement of Christopher Whitcomb, December 7, 1993,
at 6.

648. HRT Sniper Log, August 22, 1992, 5:57 p.m., at 1.

649. Smith FD-302, November 24, 1993, at 7; and Rogers Trial
Testimony, June 2, 1993, at 60-61.

650. FD-302 Interview of John Haynes, October 20, 1993, at 7.

651. Smith Sworn Statement, January 6, 1994, at 7-8; Rogers Trial
Testimony, June 2, 1993, at 63-65.

652. Constanza FD-302, October 22, 1993, at 2.

653. Horiuchi Trial Testimony, June 3, 1993, at 67-69.

654. id. at 81. Horiuchi assumed that the female was the same
person he had seen earlier because of her small stature. id.
at 74.

655. (G.J.)

656. (G.J.)

657. Horiuchi Trial Testimony, June 3, 1993, at 71-72.

658. "Port arms" is a military term which describes a weapon
being carried across the chest with both hands in a slanting
direction with the barrel near the left shoulder.

659. (G.J.)

660. Horiuchi Trial Testimony, June 3, 1993, at 86-87.

661. (G.J.)

662. Barker Sworn Statement, August 31, 1992, at 3.

663. id., November 12, 1993, at 2.

664. id., August 31, 1992, at 3. Barker alerted Curran, who was
preparing his position at Sierra 3 and did not observe any of
this activity. Monroe, who was stationed with Horiuchi, did not
see anyone leave the cabin until Horiuchi alerted him because
Monroe's view was obstructed by brush. Monroe watched three
persons run from the cabin with weapons at port arms or other
positions of readiness. Monroe Sworn Statement, December 17,
1993, at 6-7. Whitcomb and Love at the Sierra 1 position and
Wenger at Sierra 2 observed three armed persons move from the
front of the cabin to rock outcropping. Tilton, the third
sniper/observer at Sierra 1, heard radio transmissions that
people were outside the cabin, but did not observe anyone. See
Tilton Sworn Statement, August 31, 1992, at 3. Warren Bamford,
also at Sierra 2, did not observe anyone near the Weaver cabin
because he was preparing his position. See Bramford Sworn
Statement, October 25, 1993, at 6.

665. Horiuchi Trail Testimony, June 3, 1993, at 81-82.

666. id. at 82.

667. (GARRITY)

668. Horiuchi Trial Testimony, June 3, 1993, at 88, 90.

669. id. at 93; (GARRITY) Horiuchi conceded that, although it may
have not been effective, he could have yelled to Weaver and
Harris to drop their weapons before he fired the first shot.
Horiuchi Trial Testimony, June 3, 1993, at 169.

670. (GARRITY)

671. Horiuchi Trial Testimony, June 4, 1993, at 40-41. 672. id.
at 42.

673. id., June 3, 1993, at 93.

674. id. at 94. However, Horiuchi acknowledged that he know that
the man had been hit "in the back up towards the fleshy part of
his arm." id. at 37.

675. id. at 103.

676. id., June 3, 1993, at 90-94.

677. FD-302 Interview of Kevin Harris, September 1, 1992, at 3-4.
The only other sniper who saw the birthing shed activity was
Monroe, Horiuchi's partner. Monroe saw an adult male, who he
believed was Kevin Harris, armed with a rifle. The person
appeared to be using the birthing shed as cover, while
maneuvering to take a shot. Monroe Sworn Statement, November 17,
1993, at 7. None of the sniper/observers saw a female by the
birthing shed.

678. Letter dated August 26, 1992, signed "Randall C. Weaver,
Kevin Harris, Sara Weaver, Rachel and Elisheba," at 5 (Appendix
at 27).

679. Horiuchi Trial Testimony, June 3, 1993, at 110-11.

680. (GARRITY)

681. Horiuchi Trial Testimony, June 3, 1993 at 113 (GARRITY)

682. id., June 3, 1993, at 111-15. Horiuchi testified that he
could not see through the window in the door.

683. id. at 126.

684. id.

685. id. at 127

686. Horiuchi Trial Testimony, June 4, 1993, at 62. Horiuchi also
testified that at the time Harris was reentering the cabin
Horiuchi "knew that (Harris) was trying to move somebody out of
the way when (he) shot, and that (Horiuchi) knew somebody was
behind (the) door." Horiuchi emphasized that, "(he) wasn't
shooting at the individual behind the door, (he) was shooting at
Mr. Harris." id. at 61-62.

Carl N. Brown
March 21, 2006, 01:20 PM
MY NOTES:

Weaver had hung out with Aryan Nations (who Weaver called "convicts
and crooks" and "off the deep end.") ATF agent handler Herb Byerly
run an NCIC check on Weaver: no record not even a traffic ticket.
Byerly approached Weaver to snitch for ATF after FBI informant Rico
Valentino "outted" ATF informant Gus Magisono in a turf war over
Aryan Nations. Weaver refused. Byerly filed a first-time, non-violent
misdemeanor charge after Weaver refused to snitch but he told
prosecutor Ron Howen that Weaver was a "suspected bank robber" with
"criminal convictions" and strong ties to the Aryan Nations. Weaver
missed a 20 February 1991 hearing due in part to a PreTrial Services
notice giving the date as 20 March 1991. The case snowballed into an
eighteen month stand-off with the US Marshal Service (the LE arm of
the federal court system) in part due to "no compromises" attitudes
by prosecutor Ron Howen and Vicki Weaver.

21 August 1992 Sammy Weaver died in a shooting involving Sammy and
Kevin Harris encountering Recon Team Marshals Larry Cooper, Art
Roderick and Bill Degan at the "Y" fork in the trail. Marshal
Roderick fired one round which killed Sammy's dog Striker. Sammy
fired three rounds at Roderick. Marshal Degan fired seven rounds,
one of which struck Sammy's elbow. Marshal Cooper fired six rounds,
one of which went in Sammy's back, through his heart and out his
chest. Kevin Harris fired one shot that killed Marshal Degan and
one shot that drove Cooper to cover. (Ballistics evidence from
trial testimony of prosecution experts Martin L. Fackler and
Lucien "Luke" Haag.)

The marshals fired fourteen shots, the Weaver party five at the
"Y". Marshal Dave Hunt reported to US Marshal Service headquarters
that there was no shooting after 11:15am and the three marshals
left on the mountain (Cooper, Roderick and Frank Norris) refused to
abandon Degan's body. The HRT was deployed on the belief that the
marshals were pinned down by sporadic machinegun fire all afternoon
by hardcore Aryans. No one has been publicly held responsible for
garbling the info.

The next day, 22 August 1992, the FBI HRT snipers deployed.

At about 5:45pm sniper Horiuchi heard echoes off the north ridge
of a helicopter south of the cabin, assumed the Weavers were
responding to what he heard--the helicopter (echoes) he heard
north of him--and acted accordingly. Assume: ass{/U]-[U]u-me.

HRT Sniper Christopher Whitcomb of "Sierra 1" sniper team was
north of Horiuchi's "Sierra 4" position and has written in his
memoir Cold Zero he and several other snipers did not hear
the helicopter. In fact, after action, he and the other snipers
were p!$$ed off that HRT Commander Dick Rogers had taken a
sight seeing tour on the helicopter without giving the snipers
a "heads up" warning.

Horiuchi (from 200 yards in bad weather and poor light) claimed
that only Kevin Harris left the cabin with a gun and that Sara
and Randy Weaver were both unarmed. According to the Weavers,
Kevin was carrying a .30-06 bolt action rifle, Randy was
carrying a Savage 1899 lever action rifle and Sara was carrying
a Ruger Mini14.

Horiuchi testfied at trial that he intended to sever "Kevin
Harris"'s spine between the shoulder blades for an instant,
one shot kill. Randy Weaver at the last second reached up to
the door latch of the birthing shed where his dead son's
body lay. The bullet entered Weaver's shoulder and exited the
armpit. Weaver was shot in the back because the sniper believed
he represented a threat to a helicopter the sniper believed was
behind the sniper. The belief that Randy was suspected cop-killer
Kevin Harris (acquitted at trial of the murder of Bill Degan
on grounds of self-defense) and the Ruby Ridge Rules of
Engagement (deadly force can and should be employed on sight)
played no part in the sniper's decision to open fire.

The Weavers claim that they left the cabin because the dogs
barked and they were expecting someone to come up to the cabin
with a "This is the police" callout to start negotiations.
They claim they did not hear a helicopter.

After the trial testimony of the helicopter pilot and USMS
Associate Director of Operations G. Wayne "Duke" Smith, trial
judge Edward Lodge dismissed the charge that Randy Weaver
threatened a helicopter because the helicopter was not north of
the cabin as Horiuchi mistakenly believed. At a hearing on
a manslaughter charge against Horiuchi over the shooting of
Vicki Weaver, Judge Lodge ruled that Horiuchi had a good faith
belief that the helicopter was where he heard it, and had
acted in the reasonable but mistaken belief that he was
protecting the helicopter and its occupants.

The FBI HRT was trained by the Delta Force and most tactical
team members were ex-US Marine Corps. HRT Commander Dick Rogers
ran the Blue and Gold HRT tactical teams under strict military
discipline. The negotiations team was under the HRT Commnader.
HRT negotiators Fred Lanceley, Peter Smerick and Byron Sage
complained (internally) that Dick Rogers treated negotiations
as a nuisance and preferred a tactical solution to problems.
At both Ruby Ridge (Aug 1992) and Waco (Mar 1993), Rogers
responded both Blue and Gold tactical teams to the same site,
which created pressure to end things quickly in case another
crisis required HRT response.

After Ruby Ridge and Waco, the HRT was reorganized under the
Critic Incident Response Group. The tactical teams and the
negotiation team report to CIRC. CIRC not the HRT Commander
makes the decision to go negotiations or to go tactical.
At the Freeman (Montana) and Navy Firing Range (Puerto Rico)
stand-offs, the CIRC resolved the crises without gunfire.
Also, committing all HRT resources to one crisis site is
avoided and today all federal LE agencies operate under the
same deadly force policy.

Art Eatman
March 21, 2006, 02:11 PM
Thanks, Carl.

I back off and look at the larger picture of those days, the political climate and all, and can have nothing but contempt for the attitudes of those in the higher echelons of federal law enforcement.

I think about the actions of the guys who entrapped Weaver on the shotgun deal, and they wouldn't have done that unless they knew such corruption was seen as okay by the higher ups. It's an agency-atmosphere thing.

Then there is the lack of concern about the concept that if you push people hard enough, long enough, they just may well push back: "Ve cannot allow dat; ve haff vays off dealing mit dose peepul!" and all that Stalag 13 stuff.

And the incredible bad judgement about the incredibly lengthy "surveillance" nonsense and the incredible costs thereof! Sheesh!

As with Waco, though, the rest of the deal was just another foregone conclusion. Once the party starts, there's no turning back.

Intellectual incompetence, arrogance, preconceived notions and a total lack of knowledge or concern about people. All the emotional maturity of a pack of dogs after a housecat.

:barf:

Art

swampsniper
March 21, 2006, 04:26 PM
Husker, "As my wife and I watched the news "stories" coming out of Waco in 1993, she bought into the government's version of the truth hook, line, & sinker. I'd watch the same broadcast, and say to her, "You believe that?" It caused much division between us, and we divorced in 1994", yeah, I believe that, it happened to me, about the same time.
My Ex worked for the Fed, she told them that I was a right wing radical running around with bunch of religious nuts, then called the Sheriff's dept. and repeated the message.
No, I don't miss her, but, at the time, it was hard to let go of a 26 year marriage.

spartacus2002
March 21, 2006, 05:37 PM
posters who have mentioned the authoritarian/disciplinarian nature of the govt have put their finger on the pulse correctly. We have moved, both gradually and sharply, from a "do as you will and suffer the consequences like a big boy" mentality to a "we must control you in advance so you don't commit a crime" mentality.

A govt obsessed with prior restraint is hell to live under.

daorhgih
October 24, 2008, 01:03 PM
2 years and 7 months after the last post, I bring the topic back to the fore. It won't take too many staged events like Ruby and Waco to upset the teeming masses to the point where the anti-gun legislature (which will probably be soon elected, in less than 2 weeks) to rant and make all sorts of charges and allegations against (eventually) all gun owners. One simple engineered "mistake" on the hierarchy's part could be used to set us all up, and put in motion the juggernaut of confiscation with Supreme Court blessing, after a few short years and crucial supreme court nominations. It is now 1300 hrs, Oct 24. Today, our stock market will fall ~~900 points. In less than one week our stock market will decline another 900~1100 points, and the world's markets will follow suit. One more week and another 1000~2000 points will shift from U.S. currency to international Gold demands. Your credit cards and cash will approach the point of being worthless. If you cannot eat it, drink it, defend it, or barter it, all that you now own will go up in smoke. I surely would not wnat to be the next president of the U.S, because he cannot make any difference. The bubble has burst. (See posting #79)

Art Eatman
October 24, 2008, 01:41 PM
daorhgih, tell ya what: If all that comes to pass, PM me and I'll bring this thread back up, just so you will be known for your predictive capabilities.

:), Art

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