[oldhammy1]

So I bought a 700 BDL in 30-06 off of a friend last week, and went out Saturday to try it out. On the way there we were passing a cattle ranch that a friend of mine owns, and noticed a coyote munching on a dead cow in the middle of the field. We jumped out, and my friend put a soft point through his vitals at 150 yards. 1 down. We proceeded to go on and do our target shooting, and I found that my new 30-06, with a fixed 4X Leopold scope, hit everything I pointed at up to about 200 yards. I couldn't be happier. On the way back we stopped and glassed the field where the dead cow was, and sure enough there was another coyote bedded down about 70 yards past the cow. We got out of the truck, and I walked over towards the edge of the field to set up for a shot, but the coyote started to run away from us. He would stop every 15 yards or so to look at us. I didn't have time to set up my bipod, so I just shouldered it and let em rip. On the fourth shot I either gut shot him, or hit him in the back hip, because he spun around 3 times. He then ran off away from us (on 3 legs and clearly wounded heavily) toward a thick area of trees and grass. We measured the shot at about 300 yards. My buddy could see him in is 10x binoculars, and was trying to tell me where he was as he continued to run, but I couldn't spot him with the fixed 4X scope I had. The question is, should I keep the 4X, or bite the bullet and upgrade to a 3 X 9? I plan on hunting mule and whitetail deer, and coyotes.



By the way, we did go to the Ranchers house and let them know they had a cow down, and that we had shot two coyotes on their land. They were thrilled, and told us if we ever wanted to come shoot more that they would be very grateful. Also they said we could hunt on their land anytime. This is good, because we happened across a monster javelina while we were searching for the second dog that was wounded

[Kingcreek]

Nothing wrong with a fixed 4 power and I wouldn't blame the scope for the difficulty picking up your target. Practice will make it easier to keep both eyes open and quickly get on target, even a moving one.
IMO, more shots on game are missed because of too much magnification than are missed from too little.

[Art Eatman]

One of the longest shots I ever made was with my variable scope set on 3X. Some 350 yards, and the bullet hit right where I expected.

In my early days, I had a Weaver K2.5 on my '06. I never really felt that I needed more--but, like all kids, "bigger is better".

It's mostly "want", more than "need". :)

Art

[Vern Humphrey]

I prefer fixed power scopes (when I can find one) and 4X is about as high as I want to go on a general purpose hunting rifle.

I have used a variable power scope exactly one time at more than the lowest power -- I needed to poke a bullet through a tiny hole in the brush, and I had a steady rest and plenty of time.

On the other hand, I have found a use for variable powers -- I have a Hammond Game-getter in .30-06. This is a steel cartridge case with an off-center chamber for a Ramset .22 blank. It shoots a buckshot (single-ought in .30-06) and is nice for small game when you're really hunting big game.

Mine shoots right on line, but low. I shot a group at 25 yards, and marked it with a magic marker. Then, holding the crosshairs on the orginal aiming point, I turned the power ring until the thick part of the lower crosshair touched the point of impact -- so if you have a Game-getter or other sub-calber insert, you may get some use from a variable.

[oldhammy1]

So far everyone likes fixed scopes. Any votes for variable? I am inclined to just leave it as is, but I just wanted to get some varying opinions.

hammy

[~z]

For the most part, I use the variable. Set at lowest power for walking and scanning, than at a higher mag for determining, and a mid range for most of the shooting (6power). If you are taking some long pokes, the high power is good, but at short range, the high power can be a hinderance. If critter fills your scope, it is hard to tell what of the critter you are looking at.
~z

[30-06 lover]

I would keep the 4x. I never really move my variable scope anyway. I would love to get a fixed 6x. That wuld be perfect for hunting IMO,
-Mike

[CowboyEngr]

The 4x fixed power should be totally adequate with 300 yrd shots for anything bigger than a house cat, but only you can determine what is right for you. In my opinion though, I'd rather have that Leupold 4x than any cheaper 3x9. I have nothing against 3-9 variables, but 90% of them get set on about 4x and left there. Most people think a 4x Leupold and a 30-06 make a pretty good pair. Shoot it a little more before you make up your mind. I personally have always favored the consistent sight picture of a fixed power scope.

[Coltdriver]

I have a Leupold 1X4 20 on a .223

Works great for me out to the point blank range of the round.

The only advantage I could come up with for a higher power scope, especially if you stick with Leupold, is that you may get a little better light gathering or passing with a bigger objective end.

I have a 3X9 40 on my 30 06 but I keep it on the 3X end of the spectrum. I missed a great shot on a nice elk once because I had the magnifcation turned up, the elk surprised me about 50 yards away and I could not pick it up to save me.

[Terrierman]

Stick with the 4X, that's a great combination.

[Vern Humphrey]

A 4X with a 30mm objective lens will give you an exit pupil (the spot of light at the focal point) of 7.5mm. The pupil of your eye can only dialate to 7mm. So a 4X with a 30 to 32mm objective lens will give you more light than you can use.

[LAK]

I share the majority opinion so far; 4X is fine.

------------------------------------

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[ID_shooting]

I use both fixed and veri scopes on my rifles. My 10/22 hosts the same Leupold 4x you speak of and my '06 mounts a Vari-x III 2.5-8. I really like the fixed on the 22. I is usable from 25 yards clear out to 200 when I am playing "artillary" on cans.

I keep the Vari scope on the '06 at 2.5 power 90% of the time, I only crank it up when scanning open fields and have a good rest.

I say your 4x is a good scope to keep on the rifle. Only you can decide what you like and will need to use. My suggestion is that if you do go Vari, don't go cheap and keep good glass.

[one-shot-one]

no. but if you want one, Leopold makes a 2X7 that'll save you about $10-15, less than their 3X9, in my market anyway.

[Vern Humphrey]

I note some people seem to be using the scope as a scanning device. That's not a good idea. Use binoculars for that.

[oldhammy1]

I guess the heart of the problem I encountered is that my buddy was able to spot the coyote at 500-600 yards as he ran off, and I could not find him in the 4x scope. I would have liked to get off another shot to finish him off quickly, but was not able to. Granted, I have not spent much time with the gun, and have not hunted big game much, so I don't really know the effective range of effectively using 4X scope. I would expect most shots to be at 50-300 yards for deer or elk, but with coyotes I would be more likely to try a 4-600 yard shot.

[30-06 lover]

At 400-600 you bullet will be in the dirt at about 375. With any hunting rifle, if it is past 350...don't shoot. Get closer, or let the game get closer so you can give him another so if he bolts he will still be in range for a few seconds. JMHO.

[Vern Humphrey]

I guess the heart of the problem I encountered is that my buddy was able to spot the coyote at 500-600 yards as he ran off, and I could not find him in the 4x scope.

The problem with finding a critter in the scope is usually limited field of view, not magnification. Increase the magnification, and you reduce the field of view.

Next time you're out in the wilds, carry binoculars. Notice how often you see something with the naked eye (1X) first, and confirm with binoculars.

[Art Eatman]

My pet '06 load is a 150-grain Sierra SPBT. I'm getting a muzzle velocity right at 3,000 ft/sec.

I've zeroed at 200 yards, ever since I first began with my first '06. That's 2" high at 100; 6" low at 300. From there, the drop gets noticeable, and you better do better at figuring distance than "500 or 600" yards: The drop at 400 is right at two feet, and at 500 it's right at four feet.

At 500,. it doesn't take a whole bunch of wind to require the vertical crosshair to be a foot or two off to the side...

That's what I've found both in the field and at my 500-yard range.

Anybody who wants to play Ma Bell with a coyote at 500 or so really needs a laser range finder. Being off by only 40 or 50 yards in range guesstimating is turning ammo into noise.

It's fun, trying, of course. :)

Art

[444]

My current big game rifle is an "06 with a Leupold 4x scope. My backup is a .338 Win Mag with a Leupold fixed 6x scope.

[MCgunner]

I limit shots to max 400 yards and it'd better be calm before I'll take that. If I can't get that close, I pass, I'm out of range. I might shoot at a coyote, but not a deer or some other game animal I want to take cleanly. I do have a laser range finder. Handy gadget for long range stuff. I'm zero at 250 and can hold dead on out to about 300. I'm shooting a .308, about 2800 fps with a 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip. With the same sight in, I can shoot a 140 Barnes and it's zeroed at 200. My deer hunting is with the Nosler and I use the Barnes X bullet on Hog or any heavier than deer game. I have the drop tables for both loads taped to my scope for reference. I can never really remember that stuff exactly when I'm in the field.

My favorite scope is a 2x10x40 Weaver. I leave it on 2 power except off the bench at the range. I'll move it up to three or four if I'm sitting in a stand at my place. Rarely EVER need more. I have a Bushnell 1.5x4.5x20 that's a really neat hunting scope, too, that I like. I've hunted with a 4x fixed before. Only thing I don't like about it is in brush where you need to get on something quick, it's too much power, not too little. If anything, I want less. I can throw that little M7 Remington up to my shoulder and I'm immediately on target with 2x magnification, running, whatever target. I want to get another one for my .257 Roberts. I don't like the 4x12 I have on that rifle all that much.

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

First off, I'll say that I don't hunt with scoped rifle in the brush -for the most part. If I have to wander through the dense brush the .44mag usually comes out of the shoulder rig.

I know, not everyone has the opportunity or wants to carry both scoped rifle and an open sight pistol when they're hunting.

So, options for higher power scoped rifles are to use some see through rings and iron sights. But, most rifles now days don't even come with sights. What's left? A low or variable power scope that allows a wide field of view in the brush and maximum magnafication when looking out into the open land.

Personally, that's what I do. 3-9x or 4-12x on a big game rifle.

Is the 4x fixed too much? Not enough? I suppose that is more determined by the terrain hunted. Game hunted. And the skills of the shooter. I know people that wouldn't waste their time with a 4x fixed. They'd just go open or peep sight. Ought to be good out to better than 200yds on deer sized critters.

Yotie's though, out at 300-400yds? I'd bet that "most" people even with 20-20 vision would want more than just a 4x, (although most fixed power scopes are much brighter than the variables).

I guess I'd look at it this way, If you can't see the target with open sight, or smaller fixed magnafication scope, it's time for better glasses or more scope.

-Just my humble opinion.

-Steve

[HankB]

A 4X with a 30mm objective lens will give you an exit pupil (the spot of light at the focal point) of 7.5mm. The pupil of your eye can only dialate to 7mm. So a 4X with a 30 to 32mm objective lens will give you more light than you can use.True insofar as apparent brightness is concerned . . . but if you have a larger exit pupil, the position of your eye is proportionately less critical with a larger exit pupil.

If your rifle really fits you well, you actually can make good use of a higher power 'scope . . . within reason, of course.

I personally have a 3x9 Leupold on my .30/06 - a Vari-X II - which has ridden the same rifle for around 30 years now in conditions from subzero Minnesota winters to sweltering Texas summers, as well as several African safaris. Never a bit of trouble - I can't even remember the last time I had to adjust my zeros. It's just "right on" all the time. (It's usually at 9x until I get into dense brushy stuff, at which point I have the option of turning it down.)

[bowfin]

If we are talking about putting down badly wounded game, then a shaky, too long shot is preferable to none at all, quite the opposite when we are talking about a healthy game animal.

I agree with the others, the magnification wasn't the culprit, but field of view and possibly familiarity with a newer rifle and scope. A scope mounted correctly for you would let you spot the animal with your naked eye, and shoulder the gun while still looking, and the animal would show up in the crosshairs.

[Lennyjoe]

I note some people seem to be using the scope as a scanning device. That's not a good idea. Use binoculars for that
First off, I agree with Vern on this one. I've been swept a couple of times by hunters looking at me thru a darn scope instead of glasses. Not a good feeling.

Second, I use both fixed and variable power on my rifles. 4X on the 22 and AR-15 and 3X9-40 on the 30-06 and 4X16-50 on my 22-250 (but thats fixin to get pulled for a better scope).

I like to have the opportunity to go to higher power if need be but normally don't go above 4X anyway.

To each his own I guess. All depends on where your hunting. Open land then a variable might be best. Heavily wooded areas and a fixed would be the ticket.

BTW, you scored a great opportunity to hunt private land. Make sure you keep the owner happy. Offer him a bit of your take when you hunt his land. Never know, word might spread and his neighbors might offer you the opportunity as well. Makes a good name for us hunters if we take care of the landowners as well.

[MCgunner]

First off, I agree with Vern on this one. I've been swept a couple of times by hunters looking at me thru a darn scope instead of glasses. Not a good feeling.

Agreed, except that if I'm in my stand and someone is walking on my land, he ain't supposed to be there.:fire: He's lucky if he only gets "swept" and avoids a ride in the sheriff's car.

Actually, I have a little pair of compact 10 power bonocs, but I also use my 4x laser range finder a lot for spotting. I'll zap a tree or something here and there and get the range if I'm sitting, so if something walks out there, I'll know how far he is pretty accurately. If I actually see something, I can zap him right there for range.

[JohnKSa]

I could not find him in the 4x scopeActually, that suggests that you would have done better with LESS, not more magnification...

[22-rimfire]

I have a 3x9 on a Remington Model 700 that I like a lot. In the woods, I rarely ever touch the scope and keep it set on 4x. At longer ranges, I might adjust the scope to look at a deer or whatever, but I rarely take those kinds of shots. Even though I rarely crank up the power, I still prefer the variable on a rifle like yours.

[osteodoc08]

Nothing wrong with a 4x. If you want to upgrade, nothing wrong with that either, but if the 4x works....

[oldhammy1]

Great comments. Being new to big game hunting, I have really learned a lot. I agree that for big game, a 400-600 yard shot with a 30-06 is not worth taking (at least for me, a somewhat newcomer). My first shot that wounded the coyote was at about 300 yards, standing from my shoulder. One of the reasons I chose to take the shot, is that these coyotes were truly a nuisance to my friends ranch cows, and I felt almost somewhat obligated to try to help. If I was out in the boonies, away from everything, I would have let him go. But after wounding him (either a gut shot, or hit in the rear hip), I felt it my responsibility to be humane, and at least try to finish him off. I am learning.

[Bwana John]

I have a Luepold M8 4X scope on my deer rifle, and never felt I needed anything else.

[22-rimfire]

I used to practice snap shooting with a 22 rifle with 4x scope. This has helped me a great deal with hunting deer sized game as far as getting on target quickly. You can do this at a more casual public outdoor range on targets. With my Model 700 BDL, I am pretty much "right on" when I bring the rifle to my shoulder whether it is a running or standing deer. I like the 4x for most hunting. It is not as "cool" as the larger powered scopes, but you also have to carry a heavier piece of glass around. As I said earlier, I have 3x9 on my Model 700 270, and it usually just stays set at 4x unless I'm at the range. I try to use binoculars for checking out deer at longer distances although it is tempting to just raise the rifle to look at them.

[CowboyEngr]

I'm impressed! No one got on this thread and proclaimed how they routinely knocked out a coyote's eye at 900 yds!

I would also agree that extremely long shots are a poor choice unless everything is PERFECT (solid rest, game animal not moving, etc.). However, I also agree that once a game animal is hit, it is the ethical thing to keep shooting until it goes down for good, or it is out of sight (follow up if anyway possible). No animal (other than the occassional human criminal) deserves an agonizing death.

[Vern Humphrey]

I'm impressed! No one got on this thread and proclaimed how they routinely knocked out a coyote's eye at 900 yds!

Did I tell you about the time I knocked down a flying duck with a rock?

If you can swallow that, I'll tell you about a neighbor who rode up on a flock of geese, put spurs to his horse and caught one on the fly.

[CowboyEngr]

Now, that would be worth seeing!:)

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

Binoculars to find the game. Note a land mark, then bring the scope/crosshairs to target. I carry a pair of Bushnell 16x50 bino's on a Butler Creek bino harness for comfort. These reach out there and are brighter than any of my Leupold or Nikon scopes. (I hope so, there's two large lens' to gather light.) And to agree with Vern again, I've been scanned by a kid with scoped rifle while I was sitting in front of a stump in a clearcut, wearing blaze orange! Then he held on me. There's no way he couldn't have seen me. It was my only choice to bring the rifle up and center his chest with the cross hairs. Him or me damnit! I could see that he saw this. Once he put the rifle to rest, I walked right out of the clear cut, went down to him. Told him to unload, then walked his ass right to his father. Then I gave his father a talkin to. Both felt pretty low when I was done. Father was thankful that I didn't kill his son. I really hope that day wasn't the boy's first/last hunting trip, but they needed a lesson. I'd rather not have been the one to deliver it though.

So, Buy your kids/new hunters some Binoculars. The next guy scanned with a rifle/scope may not be as patient as I.

-Steve

[oldhammy1]

Quote from previous post: "It was my only choice to bring the rifle up and center his chest with the cross hairs. Him or me damnit! "

I have to say, as a relatively new hunter this truly disturbs me. I have two boys that I plan to introduce into hunting sometime in the future. This boy is not a criminal, and to immediately feel like you had to put the cross hairs on his chest with a "him or me, damit" attitude seems a little extreme. I agree with your actions to let him have what for afterwards, but to immediately jump into this "tactical" mind set with a young boy seems a little out of control. Lets just say the "him" scenario played out and you put one through his chest. I don't think in anyone's universe, that would be considered responsible. Forgive my directness, but I think responsibility and deep respect for the worst case scenarios with firearms should be at the forefront of our minds, not a "him or me" jump to conclusion with an ignorant teen. I guess several other options come to my mind before I would ever knowingly put a set of crosshairs on anyone, anywhere, anytime.

[ID_shooting]

I have to agree with oldhammy.

Some kid scopes you so you scope him back and then chastise him about how bad scoping somone is :uhoh:

Now, I do use my scope to glass while hunting, I wear glasses and have a difficult time using binoculars. The eye reliefe on all but the most expensive ones suck for people that wear glasses.

With that said though, unless I see a critter with the naked eye I usually do not look through my scope, if I do scan, the bolt is open.

Now comes my second part, (not directed at anyone here) with scumbag rapist and kidnappers out there today, some stranger grabs my daughter, her scoping him will be the least of his worries.

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

I never want to put a human being in my sights. But I support my actions. It's one of those things you never want to do. I don't know what I could have done better, other than just sit still. Sorry, it's not in my nature. Point a gun at me, and well, I'll do the best to defend myself. And as it went through my mind, I had no cover to duck behind. I was in front of a windfall/stumps. Nowhere to hide. To be honest, it was an instinct to raise my left arm slowly and -it not being blaze orange though, knowing that he was looking right at me, he didn't lower his aim. I dunno, it was then also instinct to keep the arm moving to pull the rifle up. He got the hint then! He nearly dropped his rifle. Your point is valid. Very valid.

Still, I take great steps to use binoculars. I wear glasses too. Yes, if I see an animal with naked eye, I'll forego the bino's and go straight to scope. Yet if I'm down range from a hunter with scoped rifle, and I see him, he's actively scanning, 'moving', then holds on me.. I don't know that his bolt is open.

Until you're in someone else's cross hairs, Knowing you are, for an extended time, and knowing that he has the opportunity to make a huge mistake, Until then, you won't know what it feels like. Your next action may not be the best of a list of possibilities. He seeing me raise the rifle slowly, was a lot more suttle than me jumping up quickly -Possibly spooking him into a shot. I was even wearing a blaze orange vest. I sure as hell didn't look anything like a deer.

So you tell me, when someone's got you in their cross hairs, you know it, you have no cover, you've moved enough, but not in rapid motion, would you just let someone take aim?

-Steve

[oldhammy1]

"I don't agree with my own actions." "But I support my actions."

Which is it? These two seem to contradict each other, at least in some way. I agree, that I cannot totally put myself in your shoes. But to say you had no other option than to put the crosshairs in the middle of his chest seems a little lacking. May I suggest this as one other option- If your real intent was to get his attention and not put his life in danger, how about putting the crosshairs a few feet to one side or the other of him. He wouldn't know the difference, and it would send the same message to him. At least this lessens the chance of the "him" scenario playing out, and that day one life may have been at risk instead of two. I think in a way you stooped to his ignorance when you assumed the only recourse was to figuratively "fire right back". I am not trying to get personal, just commenting on my perception of the situation. I am learning, so if I am way off, feel free to let me know.

Hammy

[birddog]

I would keep the 4x. I never really move my variable scope anyway.

Ditto that. I have a 3-9 on my 30-06 and it rarely moves far from 3 or 4. Occasionally I've cranked it up to see distant deer, but that's just basically using it as a really expensive binocular.

I have fixed 4's on 2 other rifles and my muzzleloader, and they all work fine for normal range critter-getting.

[Art Eatman]

Somebody wants to start a thread about behavior in the field when swept or aimed at, fine.

This thread is about scopes.

Art