Guns in the Cockpit


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45R
April 18, 2003, 03:41 PM
Isnt this target a little big? Or is this some kind of trick photo. The target looks larger then the person shooting at it!

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030417/i/1050622151.2684534877.jpg A pilot takes part in a live fire exercise at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Georgia, April 17, 2003. Pilots who successfully complete the training will be sworn in as federal law enforcement officers, known as Federal Flight Deck Officers, and can begin carrying weapons on flights as soon as April 20, 2003. REUTERS/Rick Fowler

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shermacman
April 18, 2003, 03:45 PM
Dude! You never know what kind of bad guys are out there! I wonder what caliber the gun is? That is one large size entrance wound!

John G
April 18, 2003, 03:57 PM
There was a piece on this on the news. They said they were "government issue .40 caliber pistols." Looked like Glocks to me.

Bobarino
April 18, 2003, 06:41 PM
fi you want more info on this matter you can check out
www.secureskies.org

the rules set up to allow pilots to carry are some of the most ridiculous things i have ever seen. they seem to forget that the pilot has control of the plane already. all the psycological evaluations in the world aren't going accomplish a thing as pertains to the pilot using a gun take over a plane he is already in charge of. ridiculous.

Bobby

benEzra
April 18, 2003, 10:04 PM
the rules set up to allow pilots to carry are some of the most ridiculous things i have ever seen. they seem to forget taht teh pilot has control of the plane already. all the psycological evaluations in the world aren't going accomplish a thing as pertains to the pilot using a gun take over a plane he is already in charge of. ridiculous.
Not sure I understand what you're saying. The point of the gun in the cockpit is as a last line of defense if 5 guys with plastic knives and a hammer are about to break the door in, not to stage an assault on the cockpit if terrorists have already taken over.

What's ridiculous, to me, is the arguments I've heard against arming the pilots that go something like "if terrorists with knives break into the cockpit to cut the pilots' throats, the pilots should busy themselves flying the plane instead of trying to resist." Aside from the fact that an airliner at cruise is almost always on autopilot with set waypoints, the idea that the pilot should sit there with his hands on the controls while he is murdered strains credulity . . .

Regards,

bE

Stevie-Ray
April 18, 2003, 11:06 PM
Dude! You never know what kind of bad guys are out there! I wonder what caliber the gun is? That is one large size entrance wound! Maybe that's one of those new 45mms.:D

blades67
April 18, 2003, 11:31 PM
That target is required by the Americans with Disabilities Act so that the vision impaired pilots will have the same opportunities to qualify as all the others.:neener: :evil:

Flashpoint
April 19, 2003, 12:05 AM
They said they were "government issue .40 caliber pistols." Looked like Glocks to me.
I watched the news clip a few times and never could get a real good look at them, but they looked a little fat to be a glock. I could be wrong though.

Bobarino
April 19, 2003, 04:02 PM
BenEzra,

check out secureskies.org. what i'm refering to is all the red tape and ridiculous rules, qualifications, tests, and retests that pilots have to go through to be armed. they are making it as difficult as possible for a pilot to qualify to carry in the cockpit. its a many months long evalutaion process that is "supposed" to make sure that the guy with the gun won't flip out and take over the plane. DUH! he's already in charge!!!!

Bobby

COHIBA
April 19, 2003, 05:14 PM
sorry, but, i dont want anyone one the plane w/ a gun. not the pilot not a cop not me.
i think the pilot should have to run the xray machine. he has a vested intrest in what makes it on board.
AND the main. crew chief sholud have to fly to the next destination. i bet the engine wouldnt fall off then.

sm
April 19, 2003, 05:54 PM
Well , I for one think they should have never quit allowing Pilots to carry on board.

I also feel the restrictions of LEO, MIlitary and other persons whom used to be allowed should have never been changed.

I also feel any CCW person whom chooses to, should be allowed to carry on board.

Of Course I think less gummit meddlin', no gun laws, and the like is a great and much needed concept.

Geech
April 19, 2003, 06:01 PM
sorry, but, i dont want anyone one the plane w/ a gun. not the pilot not a cop not me.

Why?

John G
April 19, 2003, 06:31 PM
Good question. Why should nobody on a plane be armed?

Erik
April 20, 2003, 01:49 PM
It turns out I had lunch last week with several of the pilots getting so much attention of late.

They seemed like a good bunch.

I left them with a few ad libbed words about supporting them and their efforts to keep our skies safe. Though I cannot for the life of me remember exactly what it was that I said.

Anyway, why folks feel that a pilot with more training in basic firearms manipulation and weapon retention than the average LEO ever gets shouldn't be allowed to defend a plane is beyond me.

KPersimmon
April 20, 2003, 02:02 PM
"sorry, but, i dont want anyone one the plane w/ a gun. not the pilot not a cop not me."



And especially not the bad guy!

Greybeard
April 20, 2003, 02:36 PM
Quote: Isnt this target a little big? Or is this some kind of trick photo. The target looks larger then the person shooting at it!

The target is likely about the size perceived. Looks to be about the same size as what I call the "Blue Amazon Man" used with TX CHL testing.

If, from 3 to 7 yards, someone can't use 40 or so rounds of 9mm or bigger and dig 'em out a hole like the one pictured, I'd be just a little concerned about their shootin' ... ;)

I've certified and qualified many pilots in the last several years and can say that most of 'em shoot in at least the 90% range, lots of 'em 240 to 250 out of a possible 250.

Much of the TSA stuff imposed on them is bovine scat. :fire:

Phil Ca
April 20, 2003, 07:29 PM
The pilots are training at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center,(FLETC) located at a former USCG Base in Glynco, Ga. I t is a very good training location and I have attended two courses there.

One course I attended was the federal firearms instructor course. I could have volunteered to instruct there, but since I would not be allowed my family joining me for a TDY, I chose not too.

One of my instructors was a former NYCPD cop who was in the undercover squad that foiled holdups in the city for quite some time.

The reason the target looks so large is from the lens angle perspective I believe.

BOBE
April 20, 2003, 08:15 PM
The size of the target has to do with the focal length of the lens being used to take the picture. Photog. was using a lele. lens.

BOBE
April 20, 2003, 08:16 PM
oops, Make that a tele lens.

YankeeClipper
April 20, 2003, 09:25 PM
To the person who doesn't want any guns on the airplanes: Did you notice the wakoes always go to the gun free zones to pull their stunts? And why does it cost soooo much to arm the pilots?

KPersimmon
April 21, 2003, 08:26 AM
"To the person who doesn't want any guns on the airplanes: Did you notice the wakoes always go to the gun free zones to pull their stunts? And why does it cost soooo much to arm the pilots?"


I was just being facetious since my beef is only with the bad guy(s) having guns.

:rolleyes:

AJ Dual
April 21, 2003, 10:38 AM
sorry, but, i dont want anyone one the plane w/ a gun. not the pilot not a cop not me.

Why?

The pilot could just lock the door to the cabin and crash the plane if he wanted to anyway. What does it matter if he has a gun? And before you say, the passengers or co-pilot could bash the door down and regain control easier from an unarmed "maniac pilot", a few violent manuvers on the way down are sure to knock everyone not strapped in on their @ss. I don't get his response either.

Can you elaborate further?

BTW the "Goldfinger" depresurrizing plane explodes/suck you out into the sky/will blow out a whole window, etc. from a bullet hole is a myth, BTW. The plane already "leaks" plenty. The pressurization system is constant, and one (or several) bullet holes is not significant.

dairycreek
April 21, 2003, 01:49 PM
I sure wish that the world was in such a state the the idea of guns on a plane just would not arise. But we all know that just isn't the way it is. If a bad guy comes on board to do harm I want somebody on board to be in a position to affirmatively deal with the threat. My personal preference would be a trained Sky Marshall on every flight and leave the pilot to his first set of priorities - which is to get me down safely.

As to the guns being used they are Glocks. Our local news showed one being held in the palm of a pilot and there was no doubt that it was a Glock. Good shooting;)

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