Need constructive criticism on a BOB

[SRMohawk]

Gentlemen,
I've kept a BOB together for at least a year now, thinking that I had all the right stuff and none of the wrong stuff. But after joining your illuminating little forum and feverishly reading through alot of the threads at this particular location, I've begun to second guess the load-out of my BOB. So I'm asking, guys, how would you modify the following:

Camelback BFM pack loaded full time with:
- 3 liter reservoir
- 1 pair khaki 5.11 tactical pants
- 1 heavy-weight twill hunting shirt
- 2 black T-shirts
- 3 pairs boxers
- 3 pairs socks
- Katadyn heavy-duty water filter (the size of a 2 D-cell Maglite)
- MSR water purifer (size of a large fountain pen)
- Handheld GPS system w/ 3 sets of batteries
- Suunto mechanical compass
- Swarovski 8x32 SLC binos
- Petzyl Myo-XP headlamp
- Surefire M3
- Pelican M6
- 3 Surefire spares carriers (all full w/ 3V lithium spares and spare lamps)
- 1 all-weather, high-altitude lighter
- 1 pair Damascus tactical gloves
- 1 heavy-duty rain poncho
- 1 fixed-blade Benchmade knife
- 1 folding Benchmade knife
- 1 6-oz can of L.E. formula pepper-spray
- 1 Leatherman Wave multi-tool
- 1 HK .40 USP w/ 10 full, 13-round magazines
- 1 first-aid kit w/ 2 Quickclots, 2 large Mil-Spec bandages, 8-oz can of NS
wound cleanser, 2 rolls Kerlix, 12 single-wrapped 4X4s, tourniquet, roll of
Medipore cloth tape, suture kit, trauma shearers, tweezers, bottle of 0.5"
Iodoform gauze, 12 3cc syringes, and some emergency drugs (which I
can't list here)
- 12 Clif bars
- 2 lbs dried buffalo meat
- And 1 flat package of Huggies flushable wipes (snaked those from my little
boys diaper changing supplies
- toothbrush and toothpaste

Believe it or not, the pack still weighs under 50 lbs when the internal reservoir is full. I've walked with it all day on several occassions and it's NOT a significant load. Still, alot of you have made me feel that it's too much crap and/or alot of the wrong stuff. What would you do different?

Mind you, I live in a very warm climate, near the coast, and in a very large metropolitan area.

Thanks for any feedback, fellas

SRM

[mr.trooper]

1) Ditch the head lamp
2) Upgrade to an inline filter for your reservoir
3) Try switching out the regular T-shirts and boxers for some UnderArmor. They insulate from heat, and still keep you cool by whicking away moisture. They are also easyer to keep clean in an emergency situation, because they dry much quicker than cotton clothing.

Im a little Iffy on surefires for BOB use, but the Pelican is a great choice. Other than that, I have no other sugestions. Great BOB! I use a Camelbak Motherload, military grade for my BOB, and I am very pleased with it.

[hso]

SRMohawk,

We have to get some basic questions out of the way first.

Is your BOB a 72 hr escape and evasion pack intended to allow you to get back to your family and a greater store of supplies (that's what I consider a BOB to be)? Do you know your way home without having to use a subway/train/bus? Do you work in a high rise? Can you wear "business casual" or do you have to wear a suite and tie? Can you bring a bike to work?

Why do you need so much clothing? I've spent the week backpacking with one change of clothing (underwear included). Also remember that in all but desert climates cotton kills. Under Armor, or it's ilk, is a great idea. I don't see any good shoes. Are you wearing BOB(bug out boots) all the time? If so then you only need one change of underwear and the rest of the clothing goes. You'll be wearing something anyway when you bug out so either it's suitable for getting out of dodge or you only need a single change of clothing and a spare set of boots. Socks are more important to change than T-shirts and undies so I suggest 2 more pair. Remember you want to blend in and not attract attention so stay away from Rambozo-wear.

I'd use a head lamp over almost any type of light, but a good backup is a good combat light like the Surefire. Why the pelican? Also, why all the spare CR123s? You're going to use your headlamp for all but a very few applications so one set of spares for the surefire should be enough in a week of careful use.

Why 2 water treatment units? You're just needing water for yourself so the straw and Katadyn Micoropur treatment tabs should do.

Carry a map and learn to use the compass with it. Loose the GPS. It's nearly useless without a map anyway.

If you've got the Leatherman you can give up the folder. You should be carrying one on you at all times anyway so why add it to the BOB?

The common mistake is loading up on weapons and ammo like you're going into video game combat. The point is survival and you survive by staying out of conflict. Like a rabbit you hide and move to live. Food is more important than ammo. Water is more important than ammo. Even a small am/fm radio is more important than ammo. One mag in the weapon and 3 spares is plenty.

Your med supplies are far in excess of what you need. You're focus should be taking care of yourself not a whole scout troop. If you end up where you need all these supplies you are immobilized and dead anyway. 12 3cc syringes?

2 lbs of dried Buffalo meat? That's enough for 2 weeks. Reduce to 1/2 lb. Remember you want to keep the short term energy up for 3 days to get to staged supplies. Add small packets of Gatoraid or something similar so that you can add some flavor to the water and some electrolytes back to your system.

Prepaid ATT calling card. You'd be amazed how many folks forget that long lines will be working when local lines are flooded and cell service is swamped. Set up a prearranged person as a relay between you and your family and call them so you and they can try to stay in contact.

You don't have a picture of your family. Put one in there and keep looking at your kid's faces. Getting to them is your only objective and if you have to crawl through a mile of entrails to get home that's the only motivation you'll need.

Keep the toothbrush and toothpaste. They're comforting and have great psychological value.

[trickyasafox]

your heavy on ammo, escape and evade, not engage and mow down :)

[Farnham]

Less ammo, more fire. One lighter??? ONE??? Blastmatch, magnesium, and Strike-Anywheres. Fire separates man from the animals. Well, fire and opposable thumbs...

S/F

Farnham

[mr_dove]

I think your BOB looks pretty great. I might be forgetting a few things but I have a few comments to make.

1. I'd agree that you have too many light sources and not enough fire sources. I'd probably stick with one or two light sources with long run times. I like to carry 3 fire sources in my BOB.

2. I also agree about dropping the folding knife since you already have the wave.

3. This is just a person preference but I would reduce the amount of buffalo meat and switch some of the cliff bars for freeze dried foods.

4. You might cut back a bit on the ammo but I don't think you're carrying a huge amount. I think that you GPS, tactical gloves and pepper spray might be considered optional. I wouldn't feel too bad about leaving any of them out.

5. I like to carry more food sources because being able to have an actual meal is a real psychological boost during an emergency.

6. You may have left these out on purpose but I didn't see any shelter in your BOB. A tarp and some para cord might be enough since you live in warm weather. It would protect you from possible rainstorms.

[mr.trooper]

Good points.

Forgot to ask if he is going for a survival pack, or a 3-day assault pack. You are a bit heavy on ammo. If this is a survival pack, you will want to be loosing some of that Ammo at the least.

[SRMohawk]

You people are so gracious for taking the time to submit such extensive suggestions. Thank you! It means alot to me. You've pretty much all made me go :what: , and then feel :o , and then go :banghead: . And as always, you've made me laugh . . . something I don't do enough of anymore.

HSO and Mr. Trooper,
I've gotta speak to some of your questions and comments, first, since I thought they were particularly compelling.

I see from what you've both asked and/or stated that I've clearly allowed my judgement to become clouded by romantic notions of what 'bugging-out' would be like insofar as what all I've put into this BOB. As to your specific questions, I do, in fact, work in the CBD of the city in which I live. And it's at night, too. I keep my BOB and a pair of Lowa boots in the trunk of my car when I'm at work. Wouldn't be difficult to get back to it on the double if I had to, either. Also, my family situation is particularly disconcerting in light of our discussion here. You see, my ex-wife (who is only important because she has my little boy) lives about 40 miles west of town, while my wife and step-son live about 30 miles south of town. I still maintain an apartment in the city so I can be halfway between each place at least some of the time as well as for numerous other reasons with which I'm sure you can sympathize. Does this information change anything in your mind?

As for all the medical supplies, they're part of this cache exactly because I have accepted that becoming 'immobilzed and dead anyway' is a very real possibility since I am only one, average man. Not some ex-Navy SEAL or Army Ranger even. If I have to crawl into a hole and die, I want to be able to do it in comfort and style :D . Seriously!

So, I'm gonna go for the Under Armour stat, losing the boxers. Boxers will cause chafing when walking in them for miles and miles anyway. But the 5.11 pants are staying! They're all I wear anymore in the first place. And it's not because they look cool either. In fact, they make you look like a fag from behind. I just love 'em because they're the only pants I've ever worn or even tried on that are pretty much acceptable attire anywhere you go and I can still sleep in them for 12 hrs comfortably with the pockets all full of crap! The pistol might also have to be changed out. Under another thread herein, someone suggested a revolver as opposed to an autoloader since the former doesn't use magazines which are easily lost in stressful situations. That really put the hook in me. After all, I have a S&W 686 and a bunch of speedloaders! Clearly, my Benchmade Nimravus is completely superfluous, too. And as for all the light sources, you're all right. I've gotta lose at least one of 'em. GPS handheld and batteries are outta there, too. And the inline filter for the Camelback reservoir? Brilliant! As well as are a phone card and firestarting materials that don't require fuels. BTW, I forgot to mention that I also have a Midland two-way radio in my BOB that has a 14-mile range. My wife, best friend, and ex-wife have the other three I bought along with it (all are set to the same station). Oh, and the food! 1 lb of buffalo is as low as I go ;) !

Best to you all!
SRM

[Thin Black Line]

your heavy on ammo, escape and evade, not engage and mow down

I agree. I only carried 7 pistol mags in Iraq. And, having used wet-wipes
for an extended period of time, I'd recommend splurging the five bucks on
adult wipes in the resealable pack.

I'd keep the headlamp --first time you're working on something in the dark, you'll
be gald you did!

[warriorsociologist]

Nice set-up.

My BOB is based on a CB Motherlode pack (OD). I would agree with the more fire (lighter + matches + firesteel + small magnifier)/less ammo logic...and that a good LED headlamp is essential.

Also, my pack differs in a few ways - most notably that I use a single filter (MSR miniworks), a small titanium cookset / cup (Snowpeak is nice) + salt/pepper shakers :cool:, no GPS (not yet anyway - I just have a nice compass and that's all I have ever needed), my binos = my LRF, since my headlamp has "hi & low mode" I only carry an additional on-board pistol-mounted weapon light for when I need "bright light NOW.", only 1 SF spares carrier (I carry fewer things that use 123s) and 2 sets of spare lithium AAs for my headlamp), a regular black gore-tex ECWS parka & pants (beats a poncho when it's really raining), nomex coveralls instead of your tac clothes + a antimicrobial (silver thread) poly/wool mix undershirt & skivvies, 2 particulate facemasks (I forget what these are rated - highest I could get) in plastic, a disposable tyvek suit/booties & nitrite gloves + GI poncho, good on the fixed blade (mine's a Swamprat Camp Tramp w/ a large flint, ceramic sharpener, and LM Wave onboard in its sheath), good on the pistol - mine's a Glock 20 w/ 6+1 15rd mags + a .22lR slide/mag kit + 400rds, and I'd add an inflatable splint (SAM-splint), salt-tabs, and bio-suds/camp-suds (clean hands & wounds are happy hands & wounds), to your Kitchen/First aid kit), a 40-count box of handi-wipes (size = about 2x2x4), and about 1 half-doz cotton hankerchiefs... That's all off the top of my head for now. I'll try to clean up my post later (or repost) when I get home and actually look again at what I have).

[riverdog]

I won't get into specifics, but a couple things to think about. One is battery compatibility. My lights and GPS run on the same batteries. I don't see the need for a Surefire light for night navigation -- lots of throw, but really bad battery life. Many other LED lights will do which have much better battery life and run on standard batteries (AA & AAA alkaline). My choice is the UK4AAeLED (http://www.pocketlights.com/uk4aa_eled.asp). If you only need to travel 40 mileson roads/streets, do you even need a GPS? maybe a compass to get back on track, but hopefully you've traveled the route and have alternates. Navigation should be a non-issue.

A second point is that a BOB is not a substitute for your cache. The cache should be securely stored wherever you decide to bug-out to. A secure trunk or whatever that you can store stuff you may need. Trim the BOB down to what you would need to travel to your cache. Most of your ammo, fresh batteries, food, water purification et al should be stored at this location. You may want to have more than one. The BOB is just to get you there.

I don't know where you live, but the 40 miles you mentioned is bicycle distance for me -- faster and much easier than hoofing it. Unless you really expect to be fighting your way to your cache/home. My primary BOB is my truck. Unless things get really bad I don't leave the truck. Plan B is walking, no place to store my bike at work.

BTW, 5:11's are available in nylon -- keep a pair in your trunk. I wear denim or canvas 5:11 too, but in a survival situation, cotton kills. Nylon is much better for traveling. Ditto on the UnderArmor recommendation.

[SRMohawk]

Whoa Nellie! It's funny to me now that I actually thought I had a good thing together with this BOB of mine. But it still requires some major modifications.

WS,
I can't believe I didn't think of good, strong anti-septic/anti-bacterial agents like soap! I'm gonna put some betadine, chlorhexadine gluconate, and oil of oregano into the bag as well.

RiverDog,
I was totally unaware that 5.11s are available in nylon. I've gotta check those out posthaste!

Now, I've gotta share something that kept me from getting to sleep this morning. (I work nights. But even on nights off, I keep an up-all-night schedule.) After my lovely, little wife got up to get ready for work, she went into the office and read this thread. Then she came downstairs and submitted the following: "I think your new buddies at this forum all have country homes or hideouts. And though we'll eventually have one, too, for the time being we need to be thinking about what we're gonna do to survive right here if SHTF. I, for one, would think about assembling a BIB (bugging-in bag) rather than worrying about what you need for bugging out! Just where do you think you're gonna bug-out to in the event of a bird flu epidemic, for example? The only thing you're gonna need to worry about is getting between here, your ex-wife's home, Lee's house (my best friend), and your parents (who have a huge, fortress-like home 30 miles north of the city)! And with the way this place is gonna get under those circumstances, I think we gonna need to learn to travel on foot under the cover of dark and off of the roads!"

Hmmm! I knew I married that gal for more than her beautiful blue eyes and great ass!

So what about it, boys?

SRM

[riverdog]

"I think your new buddies at this forum all have country homes or hideouts. And though we'll eventually have one, too, for the time being we need to be thinking about what we're gonna do to survive right here if SHTF. I, for one, would think about assembling a BIB (bugging-in bag) rather than worrying about what you need for bugging out! Just where do you think you're gonna bug-out to in the event of a bird flu epidemic, for example? The only thing you're gonna need to worry about is getting between here, your ex-wife's home, Lee's house (my best friend), and your parents (who have a huge, fortress-like home 30 miles north of the city)! And with the way this place is gonna get under those circumstances, I think we gonna need to learn to travel on foot under the cover of dark and off of the roads!"I agree with bugging in. Unless circumstances require you to leave, it's much better to prepare your home to handle long term problems. Since you have family around the city, you may want to discuss this issue with them and broach the subject of setting up at your parents. That's for you and your family to decide, not us. If you do decide to go to your parent's home, you should consider prepositioning a lot of your emergency supplies there. Plan ahead and you won't need to carry them.

With that in mind, you need to work out contingency plans and equipment (BOB) to 1) Get home, and then stay there or make a decision to 2) get to your folks home. How much do you need to get home walking? Can you walk to your apartment and then ride a bicycle that's stashed there?

Decisions, decisions. Ongoing process.

[hso]

Your BOB is to get you to your BIB and your smarter half. Without it you may not make home to help your wife bug in. I think the two of you are still missing the point of a BOB. It isn't a wilderness pack for a solo 3 month AT hike (I've got friends who've done this). It's the bare minimums to let you get from your office in the CBD to your wife 30 miles away. Since you can't run 30 miles in a day you've got to have supplies to allow you to cover that intervening territory in 3 days. Assuming that you can make it in 3 days.

Unless you have a medical condition that won't allow you to safely go without eating you don't need a lot of food. Just enough to keep energy levels up while you schlog your way home on foot.

If you've got an apartment in town and you have your vehicle close to the office a bike could let you make that 30 miles in one day. Run out of road for the bike? Ditch it and go on on foot. If you were able to eat up 10 of those 30 miles in 30 minutes instead of 10 hours you've shaved a day off your travel time home.

I agree that LEDs allow you to pick a combat light that performs close to the level of the Surefire (I've got both Surefires and Innovas), but since you've already spent the money on the light and batteries it would be foolish to toss them in favor of spending more money on a "compatable" light.

Your BIB becomes a set of bug in bins or a BIC (bug in closet) stocked with supplies to last a minimum of 6 weeks. If you are concerned about a pandemic you shouldn't be going anywhere and probabaly won't be allowed to. Mask and hand sanitizer.

[SRMohawk]

Guys,
My wife's home is already stocked with about 2 weeks of emergency water and food stuffs for a family of four (we keep it in a locked closet and don't pull any of it out just because we don't wanna go to the grocery store or something). And the wife has been telling me we need to triple or even quadruple the amount. But the other 3 safe houses in my network are completely unprepared except for the fact that I keep at least one handgun, one long gun and lots of ammo at each. Even my friend Lee has nothing that would do us any good in a seige except lots or guns and ammo. As for my dad, he's retired and trying to get out of this place altogether. He and mom have alot of money and dad wants to use a chunck of it to get a spread way out in the sticks (w/ a well, 25 kw generator, and close to a lake with alot of fish in it). But my mom keeps him from doing this. We were discussing the matter just this morning after my wife left for work. He told me that mom was gonna have to deal with alot of guilt if something cataclysmic happens and none of us can leave the city for a safe haven in the country. But I digress. The point here is that mom pretty much runs dad and she has forbidden me to keep anything in their home aside from the guns and ammo I've been keeping there for years. And the ex-wife . . . she and my mother are cut from the same cloth. Bloody hell!

I tell ya, boys, I'm not too worried about myself really. I stay in excellent condition, train hard with rifle, shotgun, and handgun, and maintain an elevated sense of alertness. I'm pretty sure of my new wife, too. She stays in good shape as well, has her own BOB (I've gotta look and see what all she's got in there. It's probably alot better than mine!), and gets to the range with me once a week. (She's getting ready to order herself an LBC Stinger with Novak night sights and T-Chrome finish, too. I'm so proud of her.) But the rest of my loved ones are another matter! I have a 3-year old son that is kept on a really short lease by my ex-wife, and a 4-year old step-son who has severe ADHD. I can just see me caught in a situation where I've gotten to and secured one and then have to 'rescue' the other!

Woe is me :( .

I can't thank you all enough for your advice/counsel. Gotta go hit the gym now. Be back soon.

SRM

[trickyasafox]

if you hit the woods, how bout a survival 22 that folds down to just the stock?

[c_yeager]

As much as I love lithium flashlights I feel that they are impracticle for this application. The somewhat eccentric and hard to find batteries combined with the outrageously low run-time of the light itself really makes them impracticle for a survival accessory. They are great for when you need to generate a LOT of light out of a small package, but they are not usefull for providing a usable light source over a long period of time. As much as I love my 9volt surefire, I would pack a lowly mini-maglight first.

I think you also have too much redundency. For example do you really *need* three knives? I know, I know. I love knives too, but they are simple tools, and I cant think of many tasks that can be accomplished with a Benchmade folder that cannot be accomplished with a Benchmade fixed blade, or visa versa. Just pick one, and carry that. The whole point of buying finely crafted cutting instruments is that they dont need backups.

I see that you have a compass listed, but I dont see an actual MAP anywhere on your list. I would be sure to have one handy. In fact, I would ditch the GPS and just use the map and compass myself. Batteries have a nasty habit of going bad while they sit in your pack, and you know that the one time your GPS quits working is when your really need it.

In the interest of firemaking I think you should include a tinderbox of somekind as well as a hatchet, which I think is among the most overlooked pieces of survival gear, try chopping wood with a 4 inch pocketknife some time, it aint fun. ALso throw in some BIC lighters just for the heck of it. There are a *lot* of fire starts in those little things.

A thing that a lot of people forget is to plan for the commonplace before they plan for the uncommon. Take care of your basic needs first and foremost. You have food pretty well covered, but what about shelter and warmth? Those basic needs are things that you need every single day without exception. As much as I like being prepared I would ditch every firearm I have if I had to choose between them and a warm and dry place to sleep and a meal to eat. You are nicely set of for treating battle injuries and fending off a herd of attackers, but if you freeze to death on day one it wont matter.

[LAK]

- 2 black T-shirts
Replace with: one olive drab or light brown T. One set of silk long johns, which weigh almost nothing, add considerable warmth if needed and dry quickly.
- 3 pairs boxers
Reduce to one pair. When what you have on needs washing, you only need one spare unless you are planning on a longer bugout. In which case three is probably OK.
- Katadyn heavy-duty water filter (the size of a 2 D-cell Maglite)
- MSR water purifer (size of a large fountain pen)
Make sure you have a filter with a carbon element; ceramic filters etc will not take out chemical pollutants. Katadyn makes the Micro which takes carbon elements.

I think the 2 lb of dried buffalo is a very good idea. That will take you a long way. Might add some dried fruit and nuts, oatmeal, and a small bottle of olive oil and a few of the "niceties" described in a related thread.

So far I would also add:

- .22 pistol like a Browning Buckmark, at least a hundred rounds of any .22 solid that feed and group well, and a cleaning kit.
- A little fishing kit
- Quality sunglasses and a brimmed hat
- USGS topo maps.
- Fire making gear. Matches, a BlastMatch, Magnesium bar and striker etc
- Vitamin tablets. Lots of C, a multi- and B etc.
- Closed cell foam matt weighs nothing and makes nights more comfortable.
- Mosquito headnet

What part of the country are you in?

----------------------------------------
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[cookekdjr]

If you keep the magazines loaded all the time, won't the springs wear out?
Maybe a .357 revolver with a box or two of ammo and some speedloaders would be better. I'd also add a Ruger Single Six or S&W 63 and some .22 ammo as a game-getter.
But...I am no expert on this subject.
-David

[riverdog]

Given SRMohawk's situation, multiple firearms for wilderness survival isn't an issue. Leaving the mags loaded won't effect the springs.

[trickyasafox]

i agree with riverdog, its not leaving mags loaded that weaken them, its repetitive compression and relaxation of the spring that does it in.

[c_yeager]

I dont buy the magazine spring weakening idea, its been discussed here in the past. People have been hauling out magazines that have been loaded for decades without having function problems. It is constant cycling that wears out springs, not sitting at rest. You are doing more harm to your springs by loading and unloading them than ou are by letting them sit.

[SRMohawk]

I could just have an MI here listening to you fellas! I'm that ill-prepared!!!

Since this is one of those threads that is really starting to piss off the moderators (e.g. Jeff White), let's take five . . . weeks. During that time I'm gonna take the education that has heretofore been imparted and get better prepared. I need to have sitdowns with my ex-wife, best friend, and parents anyway!

BTW C. Yeager (Is that REALLY you, Chuck?), your advice really blew my hair back (like that of HSO, Mr. Trooper, WS, and RiverDog's early)! My Katadyn does, in fact, not incorporate an activated charcoal element! It's the $220 job based on a silver-impregnated ceramic element alone! Damn!

I've gotta get my #### together, boys!

Talk to ya'll in five weeks or so!

SRM

PS - Those of you who KNOW how extraordinary a food buffalo meat is need to pull up the website www.woodys-smokehouse.com and order a pound of the dried buffalo. I keep 10 lbs of it at my apartment! It is expensive, however, at $32/lb. But it's both delicious and nutritious (a mere 4 ounces of this stuff has more than 100% of the USRDA for protein). The really cool thing is that as long as it's kept dry, it lasts for months out in the open without refridgeration . . . YEARS if left in the un-opened original packaging!!!

[hso]

As a painful experiment see how far you can walk towards home in half a day without your pack. You'll have a better idea what it's like without conjecture. Then make the same walk with you pack filled with an inert load of the same weight as fully loaded today and reevaluate your contents. Let us know what you think.

[Grump]

For when you come back, I sure hope you've decided to put some sort of aluminized "space" type blanket in there. I've heard too many stories from Vietnam about how COLD it can get at night during any warm zone's rainy season.:eek:

I see no 550 cord. Can come in handy to drag stuff across the chasm if a 1960-whatever Alaska-type earthquake is your bug-out cirucumstance. I think mine has only 50 foot of the stuff.

Can opener on your version of the Leatherman? Sure hope so!

I'm with the less light, more fire crowd. Got a candle or two? Packaging is critical in hot climates. Several variations of a "can" candle, including the low-tech spiral of cardboard in an empty tuna can, with paraffin poured on top (one would be plenty), would serve quite nicely, especially if your 3-day bugout turns into 5.:(

Mine puts only a sidearm and 45 rounds on the belt, and maybe 50 more rounds in the bag, depending on how I've fiddled it...haven't worked with it lately and need to cycle the food. But with water running only 5 liters, socks and undies, poncho and 8 meals--a mix of MREs and store-bought real food including Gatorade packs, I have a good "comfort" pack that runs only about 25 pounds without sleeping bag. No stove, though, that got swiped with a full BOB, along with a backseat full of Christmas gifts several years ago. I now just have 3 USGI chemical heat packs for the evening meals and plan to either use fire for breakfast or eat it cold, and eat lunch at room temperature.

I was going to suggest a radio but you have one. Good.

Consider changing the light situation to either an LED shaker-charge light (barely bright enough) or a AA-cell maglight +4 batteries, then a weaponlight and one spare battery set if you are dead-set on it. [edit to add] Radios take AA batteries too? Hope so. Add enough batteries to reload the radio too. [end edit]

Finally, where is your pot and utensils? You want to be able to use anything you find along the way, including boiling your water if it goes really long... Comb if you have hair, and a tiny mirror even if you're bald. Gotta be able to see those rose thorns you pick up when ducking through the gardens to evade the BGs! Tweezers anywhere in your kit?

Where's your short batch of duct tape? 6 feet is probably enough--wrap it around something else that is likely to last the whole trip--like your flashlight... Safety pins, at least two regular and two huge, can help a lot in unexpected ways. Both the pins and the tape can help with the tiniest splinters and cactus thorns. Don't ask me how I know.:o

Oh, yeah, I suggest a roll or two of quarters along with the phone card--AND a credit card and $50 in fives and ones. [edit to add] Since you sound at least suburban most of the way, remember than you can still find coin-ops in many places, pay phones run on quarters, and some coin ops are mechanical and work without electricity. [end edit]

Where's the hat, sunglasses and sunscreen and bug repellent? Hat should be at least sprayed with Camp-Dry or something to make it water repellent--Gore-Tex(r) might be overkill if you have a poncho or other rain gear.

Footblister treatment in your kit? You might have it but I didn't notice it.

:evil: A dime bag of weed for trading???:evil: Well, maybe not. I'd be nervous about trading with anyone who wanted the stuff...:uhoh:

[fantacmet]

My only Q is what happened to the guns? Shouldn't there be at least 1 firearm and some ammo? At least some ammo. I don't have a BOB. I do however carry a few things in my truck. Sleeping bag, tight rolled fleece blankets, some powerbar type things and some kind of drink other then water like powerade or gatorade or even pedialyte. They have far more nutrients then water. Bad side is they have to be replaced more often. Although I do keep water in there as well. I've always got some spare ammo in the truck and I've always got my gun on me and it takes me less then 30 seconds to throw my rifle and shotgun into the case and get it into the truck. 5 Minutes for everything else. I know because I've timed it. I still have a 10 minute rule though, and I have priorities set. These things go first. Anything not in the truck in 10 minutes stays. I also carry a toolbox in the truck with a bunch of stuff suitable for survival. Clothes I don't haev much of a selection. It's all in the same place. I grab a garbage bag, and it only takes about a minute to get my entire wardrobe into the bag. I can also wash my entire wardrobe in a load and a half.

Rev. Michael

[riverdog]

- 1 HK .40 USP w/ 10 full, 13-round magazinesIt's already on the list, with a lot more ammo than he needs given the goal he's laid out throughout the thread.

[fantacmet]

Ah ok, I must have missed it. My bad.

Rev. Michael

[ctdonath]

One thing I've been thinking about more is not just the BOB, but a "pre-BOB": a sack of stuff that you won't carry, but want to get you on your way if you have a few minutes to transition:
- A complete change of non-cotton clothes. My "business casual" daily outfits are not suitable for hiking 100 miles. Get changed in a few minutes, and you won't have to rely entirely on the set in the BOB.
- Extra food & water. Chug a couple bottles of water and chow some granola bars as you get moving, and you've extended the supplies on your back by at least half a day.
- Weather-suitable gear. You'll have an idea what the next few day's weather will be, may want particular gear and not take the rest.
- Misc. other gear which you'll want to start off the trip but expect to consume or jettison early.
The idea is to preserve the BOB's contents for further down the line, using that valuable space for longer-term storage. Rarely would you have to grab-and-run in a matter of seconds; I'd expect at least a few minutes to prep without diving into the BOB.

[NineseveN]

This is probably off-topic here so I won't post my thoughts at this point, I'll PM them to the OP.

You guys are gonna make Jeff White go crazy. :(


Good discussion though.

[SRMohawk]

HSO,
Man, I'm gonna do it! But I'm goin' the whole distance with the pack loaded out all the way . . . handgun and all (minus a few magazines). I'm gonna do it at night, too. It'll be a hoot, especially seein' as what kind of neighborhoods I'm gonna have to walk/run through for the first 10 miles! Hadn't been a lone white boy in them parts for some time I bet (except for police officers, fire fighters, and EMTs).

SRM

[hso]

Don't be a dumbass.

Trial runs are done under safe conditions so that when you have to deal with the danger you are not still shaking out your kit.

Load it with bags of flour or water and make the test in daylight when it's safest. If it's for $hit then you can regroup safely.

I'm of the opinion that you're more fascinated with the crap in the bag than paring it down so that you can move fast and get to your wife and kid. That's fine for now, when it doesn't matter, but when you gotta get there don't just ditch the whole boat anchor and leave yourself with a bunch of ammo and a dozen different flavors of sanitizer. Try to remember what the "light and fast" crowd here have been repeating to you.

If you hump the whole thing all 30 miles home then let us know and I'll change MY sig to dumbass.

[SRMohawk]

HSO,
Man, I'm laughing right now picturing the look that went along with the thought of; "What an idiot, this guy is!" Of course, when I said I was gonna make this trial run all loaded out, I meant after I made the changes that have heretofore been suggested. For instance, I'm not running/walking 30 miles (10 of it through rough, all-black neighborhoods) in cotton 5.11s and with some $1500 in fancy-schmancy survival 'toys' on my back.

But I am gonna do this! After all, it'll be that much more dangerous if and when the day comes that I have no choice but to do it. I just have to keep my eyes open for packs of 2 or more YBMs on the night I decide to go!

I'm tellin' ya, HSO, it's gonna be fun!!!

SRM

[SRMohawk]

Crap! One of the police officers who works a second job here at the hospital just stopped by during his rounds. I told him about my plan. And he said; "If we catch you down in those neighborhoods trying to pull off a stunt like that, we'll arrest you for criminal mischief!"

Hmmm! I'll have to try for my ex-wife's house. It's due west of town. No Indian country between here and there!

SRM

[wheelgunslinger]

You may want to add a tube of superglue to your med kit for a fast way to fix up cuts that would otherwise need stitching.

HSO is right. Do your trial run in safer conditions because something will go wrong or your loadout wil be more than you anticipated. etc.
Try walking on a track with your BOB loaded for the proper weight.

Oh, and if the $ hit the fan, some tacticool guy in supercommando pants carrying a supercommando ruck filled with what I would assume to be ninja survival stuff would be one of my most sought after targets of opportunity (I know. Oxymoron...:p ) were I the unprepared type. I'm just saying...
I walk and hike a lot with my Kelty internal frame medium sized pack loaded with a 45# sandbag.
I think a lot of guys don't give any attention to the idea that they're walking targets with all that tactical stuff brimming from a tactical looking bag.
FWIW, you've got a good setup. It just needs some tweaking, which is why you're here.:D

[riverdog]

Agree, The walk home bag I keep in my truck is a plain Camelback without the tactical look. I leave it in the truck empty and if I need to walk I'll draw from the stuff I keep in the truck and take only what is needed for those conditions. I'll probably take more water than anything.

Knowing now that you have a section of badlands between your home and work, I'll reiterate the bicycle recommendation. Scout out different routes and take one around the badlands rather than a direct path. It may be a lot longer, but a bike will still get you home faster. It will also allow you to carry more stuff if you feel the need.

[hso]

Tell the cop he should go phuk himself for threatening your effort to test Darwin's theory.;)

That does bring up a salient point. Why plot a route through a known hazard? It certainly won't be less hazardous if people are desperate. I'd advise plotting a safer route, around, over, under, but safer. It it adds 5 miles to your trip it's nothing compared to how much slower you'd go with a shank in the ribs.


Run an 8 hr sim and then a full 3 day sim. "Camp" in hotels with just your supplies for the 3 day sim.

[roscoe]

Travel light and carry a ratty-looking bag. 25-30 lbs is probably more like it. Should you ever have to move fast, 50 lbs is too much. Tactical pants? I say try to look like less of a target.

[Vern Humphrey]

Here's what I carry on the trail -- I can survive for two weeks on around 20 libs.

Backpacking is a minimalist's sport. Every ounce you take with you has to be carried up and down mountains, until even the lightest pack become burdensome. Most backpackers agree it is better to leave luxuries home than to carry them. What follows is a discussion of gear aimed at minimum weights.

Packs

Most packs are waaay too big and waaay too heavy, even empty. You should to hold your total load below 20 pounds -- and that's hard to do if the pack weights a full seven pounds!

Nevertheless, you need a pack with a frame and a waistbelt. The waistbelt transfers weight to your hips (which were designed for carrying loads), and off your shoulders (which were not.) In order to do that, the pack needs a frame, too.

Frames come in two kinds, external (usually a ladder-like affair of aluminum) or internal (usually foam reinforced with a strip or two of bendable aluminum.) External pockets are nice and help your organize your load, but too many "nice to have" features add weight. Small packs encourage you to hold your load down. Large packs seem to demand you add more and more until they're full.

You can buy a canteen, or hook a plastic soft drink bottle to your belt, or carry it in your pack or pocket.

Remember also you'll need gear straps -- to hold your sleeping bag and closed cell foam pad to your pack.

You also need a walking stick. I like one 6 feet long or even a bit more -- when wading creeks, crossing on log bridges and so on, a long stick is a great advantage. I keep my eyes open for stands of bamboo and cut one just right to fill the hand, and put a crutch tip on each end.

Footgear

Boots vary from running shoes to heavy leather affairs. If you're buying boots, buy them at least a size too large, so you can wear two pairs of thick socks. Wal Mart hunting socks are the best I've found -- and I've tried everything, including expen$ive Norwegian Ragg socks. You should carry at least spare three pairs in a sealed plastic bag. You may wish to carry 'liner socks' -- ordinary smooth finish dress socks to wear under your thick socks. DO NOT WEAR COTTON SOCKS!

Clothing

Shorts are better than long pants (except in very cold weather.) Lift you knee as high as you can and feel the pull of your trouser leg -- it robs energy from every step as you toil your way uphill. In wet conditions, the lower pant legs get soaked, also robbing you of energy.

Shirtsleeves should be capable of being rolled way up. An unlined, cheap jacket makes a very good windbreaker. A day or so on the trail and you will find even at fairly cool temperatures it will be enough. For raingear, a cheap pocket-sized plastic rain jacket (Wal Mart) will do. Add a hat and a couple of bandanas and that's all you need.

Cook kit

I like as light a cook kit as I can get. I make "anti-gravity stoves" out of Sam's Choice Diet Cola cans (Diet, so the food won't be fattening.) A nice steel or aluminum can serves as a cook pot, and a strip cut from two cans and taped together makes a great windscreen. Add a cup, plastic bowl, spoon, pot lifter pot scrubber and an "anti-government" lighter, and it all makes one small package. You'll need a pint of denatured alcohol for the stove. Buy it in any paint store.


Sleeping and shelter

I use a big poncho I made ("Poncho Villa") which is 7X9 feet with a hood in the middle. It also serves as a tarp tent. Any lightweight tarp about this size will do. Just find a level spot between two trees some 12 to 24 feet apart. Stretch a cord between them (with the foot end lower than the head and the wind coming from the foot end, if possible.) Drape the poncho or tarp over it and secure it with loops stuck through the grommets and secured with small sticks. Stake it out with short pieces of cord and light-weight aluminum tent stakes.

You need a groundsheet to keep your sleeping bag from contact with the ground. A sheet of plastic 6 or 7 feet long and 2 to 3 feet wide is fine. Put a closed cell foam pad on it (Wal Mart) to insulate you from the ground. You don't need the heaviest, warmest sleeping bag you can find. Get one that is small and light if you're buying one new.

First aid and sanitation

This is mostly common sense articles -- toothpaste, brush, soap, bandaids, bug repellent, water purifiers and so on. You definitely need toilet paper, in a plastic ziplock bag.


Food

Freeze dried meals are the standard. One meal can be split in two -- half at noon and half at night. You just boil water and add to the mix, that's all there is to it. As an alternative, I also like a bag of instant rice. Add some teriyaki jerky and a dash of hot sauce, pour on the boiling water and wait a few minutes. For breakfast, I like instant oatmeal -- two or three packets. A few packets of instant cocoa are also welcome.

Navigation

Map and compass are the prime tools, but a GPS is also helpful. At least one member of the party should have map and compass and be a proficient navigator. I normally use a small compass on my wrist watch, and carry a computer print-out of the appropriate USGS maps.

Firearms

Guns are for self-protection and foraging. For self-protection, the threat is usually adequate. Let them see your gun, and they will usually leave you alone. For foraging, you will kill a lot of small game, and rarely kill a large animal. I prefer a .22 pistol and about 50 rounds of ammo, max.

Miscellaneous

You want to keep stuff dry. Ziplock plastic bags are great for everything from rice to socks. Cheap (light) trash bags make good liners for your sleeping bag's stuff bag. Take care of your sleeping bag and it will take care of you.

Don't forget to bring a small flashlight with extra batteries and a good pocket knife.

[SRMohawk]

Guys (especially HSO),
Remember when I told you fellas that I had walked all day with this Camelback BFM loaded out pretty much the way it is now. Well, on all those occassions it was up at Lake Tahoe during the winter months, hand in hand with my hot little wife and two close friends of ours who are police officers in San Jose, CA. Somehow, it just won't be the same walking the 35 miles from downtown Houston to my ex-wife's home in Richmond, by myself, and in typical spring weather. Comparatively speaking, it's gonna SUCK.

Thank you all for your counsel, advice, and even concern. I promise you, none of it shall have been in vain. I have even downloaded some of the posts herein for the purposes of discussions with my family and friends. Now, shall we put this thread to bed before Jeff White opens up a can of whoop-ass on us?

SRM

[Shell Shucker]

This topic is new to me and I've been reading this thread with great interest. Can someone elaborate on the "cotton kills" issue. Almost everything I wear on a daily basis is cotton. What are the alternatives and why? Would you really take the time to change socks and underwear when bugging out? Thanks

[hso]

"cotton kills" comes from the fact that cotton wets easily, doesn't wick and doesn't dry quickly. It can contribute to hypothermia in cool conditions. It stays damp and can lead to chafing and rash in the armpits and crotch in hot conditions, both of which make moving quickly with a pack more of a challenge.

Changing socks and underwear will reduce the potential for rash and blisters which can make the difference between walking 2 miles in a day or 10.

Try walking 10 miles in various weather conditions wearing the clothing you normally wear. Then try doing it for 3 days in a row. Tell us how you do.

[roscoe]

It actually depends on the climate. Here in Southern Arizona, cotton is king. In Flagstaff (Northern Arizona), it can kill you.

[Shell Shucker]

What SHOULD I wear? I'm addmitantly ignorant on the subject. Tell me what and why. Thanks

[hso]

Go to the local backpacking shops (real ones not big box) and see what they have.

[riverdog]

I looked into this a while back and my recemmendation would be to go to REI (http://www.rei.com/)or similar online shop and look around. In pants I looked at Supplex (a nylon weave) which is very comfortable but dries quickly. There are lots of good choices in under garments Ex-Officio, UnderArmor et al. 5.11 Nylon (http://www.511tactical.com/index.asp?dlrID=511&dept=8&number=74158) is another choice IMO. They're very similar to the 511 cotton canvas pants that everybody loves, but they're made from a very comfortable nylon.

I went for a short walk on a logging road in the north Cascades -- beautiful day. I didn't take a jacket or anything because it was nice. Half way up it started raining and I got soaked. I was wearing cotton canvas 5:11's and a nylon Columbia shirt. It stopped raining and the shirt just air dried while I was wearing it. The cotton pants stayed wet.

I like cotton too for just casual wear when it doesn't count, but I keep a set of nylon clothes in the back of my truck in case my requirements suddenly change.

[Vern Humphrey]

What SHOULD I wear? I'm addmitantly ignorant on the subject. Tell me what and why. Thanks

It depends on the climate and time of year. If you read my post, I recommend:

Boots -- you can get either those designed like running shoes, or the more traditional all-leather with stitch-down (welted) soles. The former are lighter, the latter can be resoled. Goretex lining is a very good idea if you can afford it.

Socks -- the thick socks Wal Mart sells as hunting socks are as good as any I've tried.

Shorts -- best in most climates and weather. Get them loose.

Shirt -- long sleeve, and big enough so you can roll the sleeves up.

Hat.

Bandannas (can be used for many things -- including a havelock for your hat.)

Poncho -- I made mine 7X9 feet and it doubles as a tarp tent.

Pocket-sized rain gear (a couple of bucks from Wal Mart.)

Cheap, unlined nylon windbreaker.

[Shell Shucker]

Glad to hear that I don't need a silk bannana hamook and ballet slippers! Thanks:)

[LAK]

Summer wear has been pretty well covered here. I would add that good fitting quality boots are worth their weight in gold. And speaking of weight, for summer use go light. An extra half pound on the feet will drain you faster on the move than many pounds in a properly balanced load on the back.

Here is my cold winter input from another thread:

First recommendation is a base clothing layer of silk long johns; available at good sport chain stores. They weigh almost nothing, but add a degree of insulation all out of proportion to their bulk. Regular cotton long johns can be worn over silks if desired.

I like an intermediate layer of 100% cotton flannel; pants and a collared shirt (buttoned up to the neck, the collar can be turned up to cover the neck).

A quality pure wool sweater can be added as an intermediate layer depending on your state of metabolism.

Quality pure wool jacket and pants. I have a number of jackets; Harris tweed etc, and a particularly good pair of vintage brown wool Australian Army pants. Hold your pants up with (depending on what side of the Atlantic you went to school) suspenders or braces in place of a belt. A belt restricts movement, blood flow, digestion etc - you'll be far more comfortable without one.

Outer shell; wax cotton jacket is good if the freeze turns to rain unexpectedly. Otherwise I like a windproof cotton shell. Genuine Ventile cotton is excellent if you can afford it. Likewise overpants if desired; I have a pair of lightly insulated British Army overpants made of cotton or polycotton with Goretex interlining.

I like these combinations because if things warm up considerably into the day the outer items/layers can be shed one at a time.

Pointer: know your size and meaurements in general, feet and inches, metric and anything else - and browse the evilBay. I have aquired a number of very upmarket, very high-dollar clothing items, some new with tags, for a fraction of their retail price.

Surplus Russian military hats - the ones with the thick lining and wraparound flap are hitting the market in great numbers at this time. I have an old East German Army version that has served well for about 15 years but I am adding a couple of the new Russian ones. These hats are very warm and versatile; I've used mine in temperatures as low as minus 60 F.

Pointer: Scour the 'Bay, surf the web, keywords: Ushanka Russian hat. They are going for $10 to $25. Expect to pay alot for shipping if you buy from a seller in Russia because of their export permit costs etc. But they are well worth the money.

Best gloves or mitts are soft wool. Some of the best I have used are the traditional Dachsteins made in Austria. Although popular for winter mountainering they are suited to any cold environment. For shooting you can modify them (or have someone else) by cutting a longitudal slit in the right place for the trigger finger. The slit can be lightly buttonhole stitched to stop it fraying if desired. A lihter pair of gloves can be worn inside mitts, and of course additionally silk gloves can be worn as excellent liners.

The right socks are very important. I like quality wool, or brands like Thorlo of various materials and weights. Sometimes a lighter weight pair inside a heavyweight pair. Silk liners add comfort and warmth.

Best boots for lounging around in cold weather are felt-lined like Sorel brand etc. Make sure you buy them matched to the socks, number of sock layers, you will wear in them; and not too small. If you habitually wear your boots laced up very snug for walking or climbing, loosen them when you settle down to allow your blood to circulate more freely.

A couple of other pointers offhand; a closed-cell foam pad to sit on and lean against. In other words cover your seat or chair. It will stop the heat rushing out through the compressed clothing under your backside and back.

A versatile combination is a down parka and a child's sleeping bag. The parka can be worn - as an extreme cold weather jacket of course. Worn in combination with a child's sleeping back up to the waist one can have a pretty warm bivouac. When getting up for those middle of the night chores (like when nature calls) the jacket is already on, and one can don boots, or they can be worn loosely tied or untied in the bag.
---------------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[Optical Serenity]

LAK,
Do you recommend any online military surplus dealers?

[LAK]

I've done most of my surplus shopping with suppliers selling on the evilBay; bought much excellent gear on there at great prices. I think the last regular online surplus dealer I ordered from was Sportmans Guide or Cheaper Than Dirt. Haven't had a bad deal from any online surplus seller I can recall.


http://cheaperthandirt.com

http://www.sportsmansguide.com

-------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[Optical Serenity]

Thanks I just ordered their catalogs.

[LAK]

Are you looking for particular items or just browsing for now?