[jd25q]

We get a new channel called "documentary" on Dish Network now. The programs are not as polished as what you expect to see on the major channels, but not bad content sometimes.

They aired one on the Waco incident and I think they were trying to disprove the FBI's claims that they never fired a shot. They had a lot of aerial FLIR footage. They were claiming that the footage showed muzzle flashes from around the perimeter on several occasions up to and during the fire.

I'm no expert on FLIR, but while there did appear to be muzzle flashes visible, there was no heat signature from either a body, or a barrel at all. Once the flashes were gone there was absolutely nothing. This was on open ground. There was no overhead cover whatsoever.

Did anyone else see this? What did you think?

[Creeping Incrementalism]

That's probably Waco: Rules of Engagement

I noticed the same thing. The ground temperature might have been about body temperature, and the barrels might have been shrouded, small enough, and the images were grainy enough that it would be hard to see them. So its possible that people and firearms would have not been visible, though when I saw it, I thought people should have been visible anyway. The government said the flashes were relfections of the sun, though they sure looked like muzzle flashes to me, and the expert the documentary had, one of the men who originally designed FLIR, said it wasn't reflections.

I believe there was some testing later that the government did with men in suits that hid body heat, armed with ARs with flash suppressors and low-flash powdered ammunition, and it didn't look like the video in the documentary, but the accusations was that the gov't would have been using different weapons with more muzzle flash.

[ebd10]

I'm no expert on FLIR, but while there did appear to be muzzle flashes visible

If I recall correctly, in "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" the man that evaluated the FLIR footage was one of the people that developed FLIR, and his assertion was that those were muzzle flashes.

The test that was done to reproduce that film was done using different weapons, with different ammo using a different propellant. Oddly enough, the results came out different. :D

[engineer151515]

I was up very early and caught some of that.

It was disturbing to hear how evidence requested at the Congressional hearings was not available - such as the front door of the compound. There were bullet holes - might have been able to tell if they were coming or going (shot from inside or from the outside). The door "disappeared".

It was also interesting to hear the negotiator promise David K. that they would never do something like burn him out. How prophetic.

Heard the BATF negotiator state to David that there were no guns on the circling helicopters. David called him a liar and said some of his people were shot from those choppers. The negotiator finally admitted that there were armed officers in the choppers, that they may have had automatic weapons and they may have fired, but he ment in his original statement the helicopters had no fixed armament guns. (eng note: What a song and dance).

Heard the BATF state in a news conference that they were willing to wait as long as it takes to resolve this with no further loss of life.


Then the FBI took over.

Out came the loudspeakers. (One Congressman asked in the hearing why the FBI, in negotiation with a man they considered "unstable", deliberately undertook tactics designed to drive him crazy? ) The decisions at that point were being made in Washington DC. The LEO at the sight had no decision authority. (Vietnam showed us how crazy that sort of micromanagement gets - we just repeated it on a smaller scale at Waco).

I changed the channel when they trucked in the tanks.
Use of those tanks was so blatantly illegal that Janet Reno should have been immediately FIRED and replaced.

[jd25q]

At one point they showed the tanks circling the compound, which I thought were engineer conversions on M-1 chassis'. They showed what appeared to be muzzle flashes from behind the turret. I don't think there are any firing ports at that location on the m-1. It could have been a bradly, but I think those firing ports are in the side.

[Oldtimer]

The Waco fiasco will continue to be a tragic moment in history, filled with conspiracy theories, misinformation, one-sided "facts", and a whole lot of questions.

Personally, I can't condone the "cult" atmosphere that was present, NOR can I condone the "jack-booted thug" tactics that were used! I have often wondered what the outcome would have been if the siege of the Branch Davidian compound had continued for a longer time.

Having reviewed numerous "documentary" tapes through the years, I tend to believe that the "authorities" became over-anxious, and didn't mind using FORCE to bring the conclusion to some sort of "timely" ending point. TIME was on the side of the "authorities", and it appears as if a lot of "fabrication" of facts were conveniently disclosed AFTER the disastrous results!

It's too bad that a "space case", such as David Koresh, was so effective in putting together his "cult" followers.....but that doesn't excuse the actions of the "authorities"!

[ebd10]

I have often wondered what the outcome would have been if the siege of the Branch Davidian compound had continued for a longer time.


I seem to recall that it used to be that the tactic used was "wait them out". Cut off water, power, and any phone contact other than with the negotiator, then just talk to them, reason, cajole, and negotiate with them to come out, the emphasis on saving innocent lives. Waco was a situation where the preservation of life appeared to be secondary to "winning".

I have often wondered what would have happened if the Davidians had decided to resist force with force.

[Fly320s]

A question on the FLIR footage and heat signature... I haven't seen the footage.

It is my understanding that the FLIR film was taken during daylight hours. Is that correct? Is so, does the film show any areas of large differences in temperature compared to other nearby areas?

What I'm getting at: The siege started in February in Texas. That is still early enough in the year that the area hasn't really become hot. So, if the weather is not hot but the sunshine is directly hitting the area, then some objects would heat quicker and get hotter that others. Items like dark colored metals, ie: vehicles, guns. And other areas or items should be slightly cooler. Does the FLIR video show any thing like that? Is the resolution good enough to determine?

If the FLIR does not show enough detail to determine what is hot and what is not, can it still be good enough to show the short-duration muzzle flashes?

I'm not trying to prove or disprove that anyone fired. I'm just curious about how good the FLIR was.

[psychophipps]

I've read accounts by people in the FBI who were actually there at the scene of both the Ruby Ridge and Waco incidents. It's really nice for a lot of people to see the "jackbooted thug" in these scenarios but they forget that both incidents were sparked by the killing of one or more federal agents. I don't care what religion or politics you adhere to, you shoot a fed and IT'S YOUR ASS. FULL-f'in'-STOP! I can see a lot of leeway in many self-defense situations but killing a law enforcement officer and then expecting them to simply forgive and forget is the height of arrogance, naivety or both. They also forget that if the feeb 'death squad' was there then the the perps would have died a lot faster. The accounts I've read state clearly that they had plenty of opportunity to storm the places and blow everything inside to the consistency of pink snot. No muss, no fuss.

While I can see situations were our government has done some non-optimal things, going after the killers of federal agents isn't one of them...
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

[Derek Zeanah]

killing a law enforcement officer and then expecting them to simply forgive and forget is the height of arrogance, naivety or both.You misspelled "fedgoon friendly fire."

[odysseus]

You see, I have one small problem with what you have said here. What you say about the FBI agents being killed and back and forth has merit. Of course like Derek mentions, they shot themselves too, and the quesiton of who shot first is in deep doubt. Of course from what you say, you can fully expect a retaliation by them - and boy sure those Davidians got it didn't they.:scrutiny:

However the FBI and other agencies are there to protect people and work for the people. Getting hurt by a "crazy" is part of the risk. Sometimes, that crazy has innocent people around them. Are you aware of the many children who were burnt alive? Are you fully feeling you are on stable ground to say that they acted with the BEST interests in mind when they were shooting into that building and sending in the armor and gassing the place with gallons of this stuff that they were acting in the best interest of those children? You don't think it could have been handled better? You are aware also that Koresh and others were often leaving the compound in their daily lives?

Waco was an epic tragedy. I don't think anyone can sit on the Davidians or the FBI and say one was on the side of rightousness on this. Anyone who does in my book is simply out of wack and not thinking on it. The Davidians did not deserve this, nor the many children who are there. This was an absolute failure of the government in so many ways.

I've read accounts by people in the FBI who were actually there at the scene of both the Ruby Ridge and Waco incidents. It's really nice for a lot of people to see the "jackbooted thug" in these scenarios but they forget that both incidents were sparked by the killing of one or more federal agents. I don't care what religion or politics you adhere to, you shoot a fed and IT'S YOUR ASS. FULL-f'in'-STOP! I can see a lot of leeway in many self-defense situations but killing a law enforcement officer and then expecting them to simply forgive and forget is the height of arrogance, naivety or both. They also forget that if the feeb 'death squad' was there then the the perps would have died a lot faster. The accounts I've read state clearly that they had plenty of opportunity to storm the places and blow everything inside to the consistency of pink snot. No muss, no fuss.

While I can see situations were our government has done some non-optimal things, going after the killers of federal agents isn't one of them...
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

[Fred Fuller]

You misspelled "fedgoon friendly fire."

In both cases...

lpl/nc

[odysseus]

I'm no expert on FLIR, but while there did appear to be muzzle flashes visible, there was no heat signature from either a body, or a barrel at all. Once the flashes were gone there was absolutely nothing. This was on open ground. There was no overhead cover whatsoever.

BTW - I meant to add here that in the video in Rules of Engagement, you could see some signature of body if it wasn't a vehicle, but the contrast was grainy. The signature from the flashes were very pronounced on the screen due to their source, which really should not be in dispute as muzzle flash.

[LAK]

Well, the one person who was was best qualified and hired by the U.S. gov, to investigate the FLIR images was Carlos Ghigliotti, (owner) Infrared Technologies Corporation. And like most people who are a serious threat to the real criminals in this country; he mysteriously - and so conveniently - wound up dead.

He had a "heart attack" of course; but announcing someone "had a heart attack" as a cause of death is akin to simply saying "their plane crashed". It does address why and how.

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a390e04762fed.htm

Run: Carlos Ghigliotti FLIR Waco on google.com for plenty more links.
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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[jd25q]

BTW - I meant to add here that in the video in Rules of Engagement, you could see some signature of body if it wasn't a vehicle, but the contrast was grainy. The signature from the flashes were very pronounced on the screen due to their source, which really should not be in dispute as muzzle flash.

The flashes were very pronounced. No question about that. I don't know how hot it was, so I'll even discount the invisible bodies. What makes me most skeptical is the lack of any heat signature from a barrel. It doesn't take much full auto fire to make a barrel hot. There should be some residual signature from the barrels. Once the flashes are gone there is absolutely nothing.

[odysseus]

There should be some residual signature from the barrels. Once the flashes are gone there is absolutely nothing.

I will have to see that again, however from the movie I don't think the resolution showed the viewer enough finite material to see barrels. Suffice it to say it was about showing the expert FLIR engineer and his opinion.

[Sindawe]

It's really nice for a lot of people to see the "jackbooted thug" in these scenarios but they forget that both incidents were sparked by the killing of one or more federal agents. I don't care what religion or politics you adhere to, you shoot a fed and IT'S YOUR ASS. FULL-f'in'-STOP!You had better review your history lessons psychophipps. The assults on the Weavers and the Branch Davidians in Waco TX. were NOT sparked by killing one or more federal agents. In BOTH instances of JBTery the stated spark was the alleged violation of TAX CODE.

Weavers: Randy Weaver was alleged to have shortened the barrels of a couple of shotguns a portion of an inch too much without filing the proper paperwork and paying the proper fees. Here Fedgoons fired first, killing Sammy Weavers dog w/o identifying themselves as Fedgoons. Sammy Weaver and Kevin Harris returned fire apon the unidentified individuals, killing one of them.

Waco: The Branch Davidians were alleged to be assembling select fire weapons without filing the proper paperwork and paying the proper fees. Who fired first is still in question since the physical evidence thay may give the answer turned up "missing" and has yet to be found. Curious that....I don't think anyone can sit on the Davidians or the FBI and say one was on the side of rightousness on this. Then I guess I'm "out of wack", even though I've thought long and hard on it. The Davidians in Waco were minding their own business, living their own lives as they saw fit, in the company of fellows who shared their viewpoints.. Sure, it may look downright 'odd' to some, but then I suspet that more than a few of us here in THR live 'odd' lifestyles to others perspective. IMAO the Davidians were righteous here, and it was those who planned, approved and carried out the "raid" that are soiled.

[engineer151515]

psychophipps
While I can see situations were our government has done some non-optimal things

That's an understatement.

[Crosshair]

I saw a website where someone independently tested the theories about the muzzle flashes. He got an IR camera and fired weapons in front of it, reflected sunlight into the camera, and other things. He had a very good writeup with plenty of photographs. Anyone have a link to that site?:confused:

[LAK]

SindaweThen I guess I'm "out of wack", even though I've thought long and hard on it. The Davidians in Waco were minding their own business, living their own lives as they saw fit, in the company of fellows who shared their viewpoints.. Sure, it may look downright 'odd' to some, but then I suspet that more than a few of us here in THR live 'odd' lifestyles to others perspective.
Yep; you got that right. Can't get much odder than those freaks at Skull & Bones - although the frolickers at Bohemian Grove might give them a run for their money.

We have yet to see the FBI or BATmen raid their .. uh .. "get togethers". ;)

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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[Carl N. Brown]

It always struck me as odd that the FBI claimed they never fired a shot,
but the Texas Rangers have evidence on their website of hundreds
of forty millimeter Ferret plastic CS gas rounds, a few flash bangs, and
at least two 651 metal CS gas rounds capable of starting fires.

Branch Davidian Clive Doyle testified he witnessed a fellow Davidian
hit in the face by a 40mm gas round and knocked off his feet. But the
Danforth report only counts small arms rounds as gunfire.