[Lebe]

Seems as if peaceful protest is a dangerous past-time for young Americans and Brits in Israel.

The death of Rachel Corrie, A young American:

http://www.counterpunch.org/niva03172003.html

Rachels e-mail to her parents preceding her death:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,916299,00.html

Details of the shooting of Tom Hurndall, a young Brit:

http://www.electronicintifada.net/v2/article1358.shtml

The assault on Brian Avery, a young American:

http://www.electronicintifada.net/v2/article1336.shtml

[Tim Burke]

Trying to stop homicide bombers is fraught with danger, too; I don't suppose we'll be hearing about that from the electronic intifada any time soon.
Here's the deal. The Palestinian people have been used as a pawn by the Arab world for 2 generations. There is a reason they haven't been assimilated into other countries. Most of the Arab powers-that-be like having Israel to blame for their troubles, and like having the Palestinian problem to serve as their grievance. Many of them don't want a resolution, short of the anhilation of Israel. That's the reason why the homicide bomb attacks step up when there is progress toward a peaceful resolution.
Many Israelis would welcome a peaceful solution. Those currently in power know that a peaceful solution is not something that can be achieved without the help of the Palestinians. The Palestinians are working against peace. "Peace" activists are lending support to the very factions that are working against peace, and toward the destruction of Israel. I wonder why the Israelis aren't distraught over these mishaps?

[Standing Wolf]

Leftist extremist self-styled "peace activists" are active supporters of Islamic terrorism. As far as I'm concerned, they need to be put down like rabid dogs whenever and wherever they show up.

[cordex]

Okay, let's make a few things clear.

Peace activism does not carry the death penalty. Your subject doesn't qualify as distortion, it is simply a lie

Laying under bulldozers or running into bullets generally involves some inheirent health risks.

When you choose to play "human shield", you accept the fact that shields exist merely to absorb punishment and that being of a different nationality than those involved in the conflict does not make you bulletproof.

When the Isreali's kill one of these delusional young people, they at least pretend to be sorry. Ever hear even the simplest "We regret that noncombatants were killed" from the terrorist bombers who target markets? I haven't.

Is ugliness on both sides and lies told all around, but this is a bit more blatant than many.

[Justin]

What Cordex said.
If you want to go try to step between two factions of people who've been violently bickering since 1947, go ahead. But you know what?
Don't be surprised if getting caught in the middle means that you will die an unfortunate death. To expect that you can be a human shield without actually endangering yourself is not only misguided, it's stupid as well as hypocritical. If you're going to stand up and say 'I'm a prostester willing to lay my life on the line for a cause' don't be surprised if it gets snuffed out.
:rolleyes:

[Lebe]

Some have suggested that Israelis have been particularly motivated to push Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank in order to make room for the enormous surge of immigrants from the former Soviet Union. According to the following figures, over 1 million immigrants have arrived from the former USSR alone since 1989. Obviously, this represents a significant population increase for a small country like Israel. No doubt such a situation is having a cultural and political impact on the country.

http://www.jafi.org.il/aliyah/aliyah/clock/table.html

[Preacherman]

Lebe, I have the greatest respect for individual opinion, and I fully and freely grant you the right to express yours. However, I must take issue with one aspect of your posts here on this thread, and on THR in general. You always cite sources from the mid- to extreme left of the political spectrum. Of the four you cite to open this thread, one (the Guardian) is a UK mid-left-wing newspaper; one (Counterpunch) is a reasonably-far-left-wing US source; and two (electronicintifada.net) are from a pro-Palestinian, anti-Israeli source which has demonstrated extreme left-wing views in the past.

I have to point out, with the greatest of respect, that there are many differing views on this matter. You are, of course, free to believe those that you judge to be nearest to the truth: but I would point out that facts are facts, and to view them through a permanent left-wing "filter" merely distorts your world-view and prevents you seeing that there are other ways of looking at the same event. I respectfully suggest that you're being blinded by the very selective viewing you seem to be choosing for your information.

I would add that I'm not at all solely pro-Israeli on this matter. I believe that Israel has the right to exist, but that this right does not encompass the right to hold on to captured territory. I believe that Palestinians have the right to an independent state, and to compensation for land taken from them by Israel, but that these rights do not entitle them to take up terrorism and deny Israel the right to exist. The Middle East has been a can of particularly nasty worms for the past several thousand years, as far as I can see, and I don't think much has changed... :(

I'm sorry that these so-called "peaceful protestors" have died or been injured: but they chose to inject themselves into a vicious and bitter conflict, taking sides in a situation where to do so is extremely dangerous to themselves, and extremely provocative to those of differing views. They made their choice: now they must live (or die) by the consequences of their choice. That's the way it is!

[John G]

I'm no expert, but a site called "Electronic Intifada" may be slightly biased.

[M1911]

Lebe:

Have you ever driven a bulldozer, let alone an armored one?

I have. I drove a Cat D7 which is a modest sized tractor. What you typically see on most highway construction is a D8. When you get in the drivers seat on a D7, the first thing you notice is that you can't see a thing. The only parts of the blade that you can see are the top left and top right corners -- that's it. You can't see directly in front of the thing, because the engine cowling is in the way. The two large hydraulic cylinders that hold up the blade and the exhaust pipe are additional blind spots. If someone is standing 10 feet in front of the thing, you can't see them. If they are 20 feet in front of it and sit down, you can't see them -- they are hidden by the cowl.

The Israeli bulldozers are D9s, much, much larger than a D7. With even larger blind spots. And they are armored, which means instead of having a wide open space in front of the driver, they have these tiny little windows. In other words, you can't see a thing out of them. Here's the civilian version (the military version has much worse visibility): http://cmms.cat.com/cmms/servlet/cat.dcs.cmms.servlet.GetModelSummary?classid=406&langid=en&rgnid=NACD&view=html&familyid=482

You know how on school buses these days, they have an arm on the front of the bus that swings out when the kids are let off? The purpose of the arm is to prevent kids from walking right in front of the bus where the driver can't see them. School buses have much, much better visibility than bulldozers, and yet school buses have run over kids on enough occasions that we've gone to the expense of putting these arms on school buses. Think about it.

If you play chicken long enough with a 62 ton bulldozer (heavier than an M1 tank!!!), guess what? You get squashed.

A bulldozer is large, slow, and has poor visibility. I've worked on construction sites. When you are around heavy equipment, your most important jobs are to: 1) make sure the operator sees you at all times and 2) stay the *($! out of the way! When in doubt, get back behind your pickup truck.

Sorry, but she's a Darwin Award nominee. My sympathies to the tractor driver.

[Lebe]

Preacherman, I agree that some sources for the mentioned occurances tend to lean away from the extreme right,.. and I realize that political ideology can color the way that certain events are portrayed,.. but the fact is, 3 young western protestors have been shot or killed in a very short time span under nearly identical circumstances in Israel, by Israelis. It would be extremely difficult to view this in a positive light. (although many cold hearted people will see it as such)

I have to ask,... would you be as tolerant of the situation if those young people had suffered and died at the hands of the Palestinians? Would you still say,

"That's the way it is!",..?

[Lebe]

M1911,.. I wholeheartedly agree with you about one thing. It's very naive and unwise to taunt a member of the IDF. Especially when he's "doing business". I would never do it and I'd never encourage anyone else to do it. But I also wouldn't have ran over anyone.

The expected explanation is that "it was an accident". To that I say, the Israelis must be the most accident prone culture in the history of mankind.

[Preacherman]

Lebe, I'm afraid you just don't get it...I agree that some sources for the mentioned occurances tend to lean away from the extreme rightThat's the understatement of the century! The sources you cite don't just "lean away from the extreme right" - they don't even approach the moderate center! They are among the most blinkered-vision sources available. Sure, there are sources on the right that are just as blinkered, and just as biased: but let's face it, if we all chose such biased sources, we'd never get anywhere. Let's find sources that state the facts, and don't put an ideological spin on them, and we'll be far better off.would you be as tolerant of the situation if those young people had suffered and died at the hands of the Palestinians? Would you still say,

"That's the way it is!",..?Yes, I would! I remind you of what I said in my post above:they chose to inject themselves into a vicious and bitter conflict, taking sides in a situation where to do so is extremely dangerous to themselves, and extremely provocative to those of differing views. They made their choice: now they must live (or die) by the consequences of their choice.Whether they chose the Israeli or the Palestinian side, those words apply. They made their bed, when the consequences of doing so were obvious and painfully clear to them. Now they must lie on it. I don't like it, but it's reality.

I would add that I worked right through eighteen years of civil war in South Africa, trying to help the victims of violence. I learned the hard way that if one tries to help victims, without taking sides, one becomes a target for both sides in the struggle. In South Africa's case, the apartheid government ruled by fear and division, while the guerillas/terrorists/freedom fighters (take your pick... the terms range from neutral to right-wing to left-wing! :) ) tried counter-terror to ensure that the people would support them in their struggle. Ideology and violence killed tens of thousands of people who wanted freedom, but wanted a peaceful life even more!

I learned the hard way that extremists on both sides, and extreme views on either side, were automatically to be distrusted, even feared. Only a balanced view could reveal the truth. Those of us who tried to take a middle road, helping victims, suffered greatly. I buried 27 friends during those years, and bear a large number of scars myself. We learned in the hardest way possible that when political polarization and an ideologically hide-bound mindset prevail, ordinary, decent men and women don't stand much of a chance. Their only value to the hard-liners is as supporters or enemies, either of which are to be used to further the cause - if necessary, as brutal examples of what happens to resisters... Ask the Red Cross, or Medécins Sans Frontiéres, or Caritas, what happens to genuinely non-partisan aid workers in a war zone. They'll tell you!

[cordex]

but the fact is, 3 young western protestors have been shot or killed in a very short time span under nearly identical circumstances in Israel, by Israelis. It would be extremely difficult to view this in a positive light. (although many cold hearted people will see it as such)
No it is not a positive thing. It is horrible, sad and disgusting. Still, I stand by the fact that your subject line was an outright lie and that these kids accepted the possiblity of being killed (by either side) when they decided to act as "human shields".
would you be as tolerant of the situation if those young people had suffered and died at the hands of the Palestinians? Would you still say,

"That's the way it is!",..?
Tolerant? Of kids committing suicide by Mideastern Conflict? They're choice. I don't care which side they try to get to kill them. If the Palestinians accidentally gunned down a couple of "human shields", then I'd probably have the same attitude, yeah. They want to soak up bullets to keep two sides from slaughtering each other, that's their call.

But I have a question for you, Lebe ... how would you feel if (<diety> forbid) noncombattants were killed by Palestinian militants?
What if they were openly targeted by said militants?
Just a question ...
The expected explanation is that "it was an accident". To that I say, the Israelis must be the most accident prone culture in the history of mankind.
Hardly. When there is a shooting war going on between a government and a group of people willing to target civilians, and then mix in suicidal kids who run in front of bullets and bulldozers, there are bound to be far more unintentional foreign casualties than in Anywhere USA.

[Rawlings]

I have a feeling that, were there a comparable amount of protesters laying down in front of bulldozers in the U.S., there would be a comparable amount of deaths.

Protesting something you believe is wrong is a noble cause, but getting literally in the middle of something that's been going on so long, with either side heavily armed and short strung, is just asking for trouble. Nobody ever got shot or run over writing letters, but then, they never got on TV either. Such are the risks when you lay down in front of construction machinery or jump in the middle of two groups shooting at each other. This isn't the Matrix - good intentions aren't going to stop those bullets.

[Drjones]

What is your point with this thread, lebe?

The incidents of people getting killed have already been discussed here at length.

You wouldn't simply be trying to stir the pot, would you? :rolleyes:

[Lebe]

Cordex,... in response to your question about how I would feel if the young Americans had been killed by Palestinians,..

I feel outrage whenever an innocent un armed American civilian is killed by a foreign national. The difference between myself and many people is, I make no allowance for the fact that the aggressors are sometimes Israelis.

[Lebe]

I'm afraid that I don't understand your question, DrJones. What pot is it that you say that I'm stirring?

I'm discussing an issue,.. just as everyone else who starts a thread is doing.

[Drjones]

Apparently you didn't read my post.

I said that these incidents have already been discussed at length.

The outright lie you chose to use for your title *really* makes me question your motives in starting this thread.

I do not know anything much about the Israel/Palestine situation, but I DO know that your title for this thread is pure BS, and threads that begin with lies are usually begun with less-than-pure motives.

I also think you are intentionally bringing up a topic which can and has gotten very heated on this board for no good reason.
(Israel/Palestine.)

JMO...

[Lebe]

The topic must have been covered prior to my association with this forum. I can't recall seeing it. Would you post a link to it so that I could read through it?

,.. and yes,.. I *did* read your post. You stated:

"The incidents of people getting killed have already been discussed here at length."

??

You neglected to say "what" people.

[Drjones]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14314&highlight=bulldozer

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13914&highlight=bulldozer

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14808&highlight=bulldozer

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17296

EDIT: One more: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13955&highlight=bulldozer

[Diesle]

Lebe,

Were you there when it happened?

What’s interesting about this forum is that sensationalistic BS rarely flies here. Its always called out for what it is in short order.

I like to visit some of the lefty sites where you’ve basically got a 'moderator' cutting and pasting a bunch of news that we can read out on the web for ourselves. Not a shred of original thought to be found. Seems like your familiar with the format....

Lebe, let me help you out. Gun owner/enthusiast does not necessarily = fascist/enemy. You don’t have to go through the effort here that you would at other sites in engaging conversation on a topic. If you want to discuss what happened to that girl, throw your cards out on the table and lets talk about it. But for god sake, try not to belittle yourself and us in the process. I don’t think the experience will be as valuable for any of us.

Diesle

[Lebe]

,... hmmmm,.. I'd be more than happy to respond to your post, diesel,.. but it's a bit too disjointed for me to follow.


gun owner/enthusiast does not necessarily = fascist/enemy?

(totally perplexed expression)

As for "throwing my cards on the table" and discussing what happened to Rachel Corrie,... I believe that I have.

She tried to prevent an Israeli killdozer from flattening the home of a Palestinian. The dozer operator tolerated her for a while, then he killed her with the dozer.

She was young,.. she was naive,.. she thought that Israelis placed as high a value on her life as an American would have. She learned differently. Unfortunately, the lesson cost her her life.

[Drjones]

She tried to prevent an Israeli killdozer from flattening the home of a Palestinian. The dozer operator tolerated her for a while, then he killed her with the dozer.

She was young,.. she was naive,.. she thought that Israelis placed as high a value on her life as an American would have. She learned differently. Unfortunately, the lesson cost her her life.

Exactly.

End of story.

You summed it up perfectly.

What more do you wish to gain from this topic?

[Lebe]

If Rachel Corries death had been an isolated incident, I'd be more willing to concede that it was an accident committed during a heated, emotional moment. However, reports of Israeli aggression on non combatants are quite widespread. Many journalists who have attempted to cover the actions of Israel have found that they haven't been welcomed to do so.

I have to wonder about a culture which isn't comfortable being viewed by the worlds eyes.

http://www.ifj.org/publications/press/pr/324.html

[Lebe]

DrJones, I suppose that you could ask that question of anyone who posts a topic in the political/legal forum. I can't say that there's anything to be "gained" from any discussion on the internet,.. well,.. except for technical information.

I just enjoy an exchange of thoughts.

Tell me,.. why does it bother you so? This is twice that you've made comments which are attempting to squelch the discussion of this topic.

You realize,of course, that you're not required to participate in it if it doesn't interest you.

[CZ-75]

Please don't feed the Trolls.



Really, folks, don't play into their hand.

The continued citation of left leaning sources without an attempt to provide balance is sufficient to lead one to believe this is a fishing expedition designed to aggravate. I don't want to give a Troll their jollies.

Think of the time wasted on "Metallic Kitty."

[Diesle]

Not that this topic is a dead horse or anything but....

She unfortunately committed suicide that day. Her life was not taken from her, she made a concious decision to give her life for her cause. Good for her!

You’re crying and bleeding for someone that would slap your face for such shaming actions.

One day maybe, you’ll give your life for something that you believe in. And then again, one day you might not. Such is life.

BTW, I won’t contribute to the continuation of this thread by responding again. As the Dr. stated, just about every thought that could possibly exist on the matter has been covered some time ago.

I’m going to be keeping my eye on your psotings Lebe. Your kind of dim (whoops was that a personal jab...! sorry), but amusing.

Diesle

[Preacherman]

I think this thread is degenerating into rather more heat than light. Lebe, it appears that you don't listen to reasoned argument very well, as you don't answer the points made. For several others, please remember our High Road approach that we attack the argument, rather than the arguer...

Closed.