[larryw]

A buddy just inherited two guns.

One is an old 10ga exposed hammer SxS WC Scott/Winchester gun. Neat stuff.

The other is a 1911, chambered in 455 Webley. Apparently Colt made some of these for the British during and after WWI. I've never heard of such a thing. My buddy is talking about getting it chambered in 45ACP, something I'm not sure is a good idea... :eek: Any insight, links on the history of this one?

[Sunray]

The shotgun may have Damascus barrels and be unsafe to shoot. If the barrel has spirals, plainly visible, it is Damascus.
As I recall, there were some 1911's made for the Brits in .455 Auto, not the same as the .455 Webley. Your buddy won't be able to have it re-chambered though. He'd have to rebarrel and use a different mag. Different case lengths.

[Johnny Guest]

Your buddy needs expert help.

The old 10 ga COULD be safe to shoot but, as stated above, NOT if it has Damascus or twist steel barrels. Not even once, not with the lightest possible loads, not even with specially loaded black powder shells. The shotgun should be examined by someone who is familiar with old shotguns, not merely a kitchen table gun tinkerer who might or might not have knowledge of barrel construction. Hopefully he can locate your state shooting association, an antique arms dealer, or even just a big gun show, and can get together with a specialist in old shotguns.

The British contract .455 Government Model is a valuable piece. According to Wilson and Sutherland, in their Book of Colt Firearms, the British contract was let in 1915, and a total of 11,000 pistols was produced by 1916. They had their own serial number range, beginning at W10001. Special markings included:
CALIBRE 455 on R side of the slide, GOVERNMENT MODEL on R side of frame above the special serial number, and upon inspection in the US by British government inspectors, the broad arrow was stamped on each pistol. They were issued to the Royal Navy and to the British and Canadian Armies. Considering the horrors of trench warfare and the stunning losses of company-grade officers, a huge number of these handguns were lost forever, contributing to their relative rarity.

Following the Great War, the surviving pistols were reissued to the Royal Air Force and were marked RAF or R.A.F. on the L side of frame, above the front bow of the triggerguard. As arms collectors tend to specialize, these .455 pistols are particularly desired by collectors of - -
Colt firearms in general,
Colt Automatic Pistols,
British militaria in general and firearms particularly,
and those specializing in RAF and Royal Navy arms.

For the right buyer, a British contract .455 in even fair condition could be worth twice the price of another 1916-era commercial Government Model.

ANY Colt automatic from that era is very nice to have, but this is an especially interesting variant. If your buddy just wants to shoot it a bit, the best way is to get a competent pistolsmith to fit another barrel to the pistol, WITHOUT modifying the frame or slide at all. The original magazine would probably work with .45 ACP, but there's no use in risking damage, and he should obtain another mag as well.

In any case, your buddy will want to carefully preserve the original pieces so that the pistol can be returned to the proper configuration. If it is a family keepsake, he'll probably want to hang onto it. If he just wants a .45 to shoot, he'll find plenty of collectors who'll be happy to swap him a much newer 1911-type or other good firearm. That way, this valuable bit of history would be preserved for posterity, and your buddy would have a nice handgun that might suit his needs better. :)

Please let us know what happens with your buddy's guns.

Best
Johnny

[larryw]

Gentlemen,

Thank you very much.

Now that he knows the story, I'm sure they'll be properly preserved.

LW

[Crosshair]

All I have to say is that your friend has a very valuable piece. Be carefull, he is going to have collectors outside his house like dogs in heat.:rolleyes:

[mrmeval]

You might have that checked to see what caliber it is. The last link is to a translated page that I think means 11,000 were converted to .45

Pictures
http://www.coolgunsite.com/pistols/1911/1916455.htm

Some info

http://www.coolgunsite.com/pistols/barrels.htm

Colt .455 barrels:
These pistols are commercial production and not USGI, however some were used by British military. Colt barrels in .455 calibre have a E for English or W for Webley stamp forward of the lugs on the barrel for identification. These were normally found only in commercial pistols with slides marked “Calibre .455”. These pistols had a slightly larger magazine well that would accept the special .455 magazines required for proper feeding of the .455 cartridges. These magazines will normally not fit into a .45 1911 pistol. A .455 barrel installed in a 1911 would possibly function, but would not headspace properly and create a dangerous situation. A .45 barrel installed in a .455 pistol would probably function so long as .45 cartridges were used.

What's 1000 Euro's
http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm47.pl?f=NR&c=30336&t=temartic_S_GB&db=kat47_S.txt

Ammo
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.armeetpassion.com/455webleyauto.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3D1911%2BCALIBRE%2B455%26start%3D60%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN

[larryw]

I just got some pics (http://www.kodakgallery.com/Slideshow.jsp?mode=fromshare&Uc=qtq5mqo.aosriq0&Uy=-mhadyy&Ux=0) of the 1911.

Edited to add that pics of the SxS are here too.

[Jim K]

I hope your friend didn't lose the .455 magazine. They are NOT the same as the .45 magazine and bring around $200 or so in good shape.

A lot of .455 pistols were converted to .45 ACP simply by replacing the barrel, which, of course, wrecks the collector value. You can't "rechamber" the .455 to .45 ACP because the chamber profiles are different and that too would destroy the value of the gun.

Jim

[larryw]

OK, let me clarify the "rechamber" comment. No, this isn't a rifle where one hauls out the 45ACP reamer and cuts a new chamber. It is a 1911 where one buys a readily available barrel and extractor and magazine to "rechamber" the gun for 45ACP (or other cartridge). But as the (historical) value of the gun has been noted and confirmed, it will be preserved.

mrmeval, thanks for the links!

[Jim K]

Just to clarify. Collector value aside, you couldn't rechamber that .455 barrel to .45 ACP because the chamber is already too long. If you get hold of the barrel, compare it with that of a .45 ACP barrel and you will see that the area where the .45 ACP shoulder has to be cut is not there, as the .455 case is longer. The .455 doesn't need a shoulder, since it headspaces on the semi-rim, not on the case mouth. You can see the little cut in the barrel hood where the .455 semi rim fits for support.

If you drop a .45ACP into a .455 chamber, it will go way below the proper headspace point. .45 ACP can be fired in a .455 auto but only if the round is held by the extractor enough for proper ignition.

Jim

[Ross]

I'm waiting for more on this one.

an old 10ga exposed hammer SxS WC Scott/Winchester gun

Cheers from Darkest California,
Ross

[Jim K]

This from Madis' The Winchester Book:

"In 1878, Winchester's New York sales office sold a variety of arms not manufactured by Winchester... Double barrel shotguns were purchased from England from C.G. Bonehill, W.C. McEntree Co., Richard Redman, and W.C. Scott and Sons.

The shotguns were not marked with the Winchester name until 1879, when they were offered to the general and mail order trade. At that time, Winchester began to import the guns in an unfinished state and the locks were marked 'Winchester Repeating Arms Co./Class____.'

Markings on the barrel rib read from butt to muzzle:

'Winchester Repeating Arms Co. (Class ___) New Haven, Conn., U.S.A.' "

Classes were Match, Club, and A, B, C, D. Class D guns were fitted with English twist barrels, others had laminated steel barrels.

Twist barrels are now commonly called Damascus barrels; laminated steel is a variant built from welded together plates rather than wrapped iron and steel bars.

HTH

Jim

[larryw]

Thank you very much, Jim. His is the "Match" variant; pictures forthcoming... ;)

[larryw]

32 pics of the 10ga SxS are now at the link listed above in post 7. :cool:

[sikander]

may be interested in buying the 1911 if its in .455

as legal to own in the uk with no license (obselete calibre!!)

justin

smuggleruk@hotmail.com

[larryw]

Sorry Justin, but that gun was sold well over three years ago...it is in 455W.

[talkingcats]

Justin, 455 is not considered obsolete in the UK and a 455 1911 cannot be possessed as an antique firearm. However 455 is considered 'not readily available' so a 1911 may be possessed on a frirearms certificate if kept as part of a collection under the terms of section 7(1) of the 1997 Firearms Act. I should know as I own a mint one that was shipped to the UK on 14th November 1918 and which I keep on my firearms certificate.