[Uprising]

Hmm... Great posts. Much interesting to learn from experienced shooters!

I have an small problem to solve and hope someone with knowledge would like to help me out. I'd like to buy some spare cylinders for my .44 brass framed 1860 Colt Army repro. The issue is, that I don't know for sure which brand it is... I have searched the internet for info, asked some people, but still it seems that there are some options to choose between. I belive the weapon I own is a Pietta, but that's merely a wild guess and I want to be sure that I get the right parts from the start! The pics uploaded shows detaild measures of my cylinder in mm, inches within the (), some pics of it, the only stamp I find on the gun and a profile photo of the grips. I've measured with a vernier caliper and I guess close is good enough...
Any help is appreciated!

[sjohns]

The first trick is figuring out what you have!

Here are places to look for makers marks:

on the heel of the grip
on the side of the barrel, of course.
under the loading lever on the barrel
on the end of the barrel.
Oh yeah.. where the barrel meets the frame.

What you are looking for besides "Black powder only" are letters such as:
sm
asm
fap (fap is usually in caps inside a diamond)
a. uberti

But on the end of the barrel and on the face of the cylinder you can sometimes find a "U" in what looks like an octagon. The uberti symbol is supposed to represent a U inside of a 51 barrel with 6 lans and grooves. Some marks are large, some are small.

The PN and Gardone marks should always be there and they are proof house marks.

There should also be a square with two letters in it, or a marking of roman numerals. That will give you the year of manufacture all the way back to the 50's. (54 to be exact)

But if you're not finding any marks, it seems apparent that they may have been ground off. You can use the serial number and email it to pietta and uberti and they will respond. ASM is about impossible to find out about.

I hope this helps.

[sjohns]

So have you looked yet?

[Uprising]

Have been busy for a couple of days...
Thanks for the info! I have checked, but I can't find no other markings, not even a serial. I doesn't seem as any modifications, i.e grinding, has been done on this piece. Maybe it's intended as some kind of "non-firing" replica from the beginning? It's fully shootable though and the quality seems to be rather good, not like the replica "toyguns" you se here and there. My guess is that it's an asm or a pietta as I've been told that uberti didn't do the 1860 army in brass. The question is if the cylinders are interchangable between the asm and pietta?

[sjohns]

No they aren't.
I think ASM parts are more compatible with Uberti. But they aren't a perfect match for Uberti either.
From what I have seen, and I am no expert, 1860 models in brass primarily have been made by ASM and ususally they were obtained through Navy Arms a long time ago.
I have seen lots of brass framed 51s in 44 cal from Pietta, but I can't recall having seen a brass framed 1860 model from Pietta, although it is possible that they are out there.
The best clue about the frame and to whether it is Pietta or Armi San Marco is that the screws for the trigger and bolt are slightly larger on the asm and will not fit a pietta. The internal parts won't interchange properly.

[sjohns]

I take that back about Pietta brass framed 60. They make plenty of them. Sorry Uprising

[Uprising]

Hey easy to miss, there are quite plenty of manufacturers and models... I'm very glad that you're taking your time trying help me out! From what I've heard the Uberti, their likes and Pietta and similar has different cylinder radius, ie the center circle of the chambers aren't the same. Also I believe the length of the cylinder may differ too. As the drawing shows the chamber c/c on my cylinder is precisely 1". It would be nice if theese measures could be compared and verified with an other known cylinder. Have asked my local supplier for help, but he doesn't seem to be too interested in black powder parts nor to help me out in this matter...:fire:

[Ferret]

I'll try and dig out my mic and measure the cylinder on my Pietta. It may take a while, we just moved and everything is buried by everything else.:barf:

[sjohns]

I think Old Dragoon said that the pietta cylinders ar .018 to .020 longer than the Ubertis.

He filed down a Pietta cylinder and fit it in an Uberti.

This means that an Uberti cylinder would have too much head space when placed in a Pietta and that a Pietta cylinder would be too tight, if you could even get it in an Uberti.

Look up his posts about 58 carbines.

[Old Dragoon]

I believe you will find that the chambers are on the same radius in both Uberti and Pietta cylinders, (ASM I haven't a clue except I was told that ASM had ties to Uberti and bought Uberti Castings, Whether that tale is true I haven't a clue), else how would the Kirst Konversion cylinder for the Pietta that I shortened work in the Uberti Carbine or the two Euroarms, the only differences that I can see are the length and possibly the pawl design, but the two Konvertors I have swap and align the chambers with the bore perfectly. the ouside Dia may be different on the C & B cylinders. I have not checked the Cylinder Dia.s in the two Kirst Konvertors but it doesn't matter as they both work as they should in all three of mine. Two Euroarms '58 Remington Pistols and the Uberti Carbine and none are brand new. the Carbine is 14 years old, the one Pistol is a 1973 and one is newer(last 5 years or so, maybe) but I cannot tell how new as it has been defarbed.

So I can tell you that Pietta, Uberti, and Euroarms cylinder Chambers are on the same radius and they all seem to have the same cylinder pin hole also.

[Uprising]

Ok, so the issue is primary the length of the cylinder. Guess I'll wait until Ferret is settled and get's his bits in place :) Hopefully the Pietta cylinder is a match, but it would be great to get some figures of it first. If everything else works and the cylinder is too long, it's no problem to mill it down to the correct fit...

[Ferret]

Measurements taken from my Pietta Cylinder

A 1.991 in
B 1.855 in
C 1.062in
D 1.594 in
E 0.435 in

Chamber 0.446 in

[gmatov]

My dimension, on my ASM '60, all concur with those above, to within a couple thou, my dial caliper, your dial caliper, my touch, your touch.

They ARE copies of the Colt, they should be close. Not that Colt, from 140 years ago probably held tolerances that well. They did hand fit, also, probably moreso than today.

Cheers,

George

[Derek]

George, Old Dragoon, Sjohns, can you help? I have a 61 new navy by ASM,it needed a lot of smoothing at first, but shoots well now , ONCE YOU GET IT CAPPED! Every damned nipple is a different size, mostly too large, so you have to shove the caps on [in great fear and trembling!]with a piece of brass rod. I want to buy a spare set of nipples, but I'm not sure which ones to order.The threads mike .208" If I could find out the thread size, I could order a set of nipples, drill and tap a piece of brass rod to hold them and "custom fit " them to my caps.

[sjohns]

Look here:

http://www.thunder-ridge-muzzleloading.com/

or

http://www.thunder-ridge-muzzleloading.com/parts_nipples.htm

or

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/default.php?cPath=22_434_435_442&osCsid=c40f53afcbe90eb8d2c5d8b63e4829c2

[Uprising]

Hey, thanks for the good work here! Just one question about the "A" measure, Ferret and gmatov, have you measured from the grooves in the ratchet or from the tips? (I've measured from tip to tip) As mentioned, the tolerances would of course have been less strict back then :D

[Ferret]

Tip.

[Uprising]

Great, guess I'll try out a Pietta cylinder. Many thx for the help folks!

[sjohns]

Uprising,
Tell me how much they are. I'll send you one for less, and if it doesn't fit you can just send it back. I have a couple of extra and you are welcome to one of them. I'll send it in one of those little priority mail boxes with tracking.
Scott

[gmatov]

Uprising,

You might be surprised at the accuracy of the 1850's mensuration.

A Brit named Whitworth had developed measuring instruments to rival our best micrometers, measuring to tenths of a thousandth of an inch, and was adamant that you could detect a millionth of an inch with your fingertips, had you the tactility.

Colt did not make millions of handguns by having them hand filed from scratch. In fact, he closed his London factory because the mechanics there were incapable of running his truly accurate machines, which produced faithful copies piece after piece.

These were mass produced firearms, moreso than the copies today, requiring less hand fitting than the ones today, from what I read in these posts. "Well, Uberti fits theirs better, and polishes more." "Well, Pietta gives you better value, but you have to play with them to get the timing right." "Well, Cimmarron gives more TLC to any they buy, so you should pay the tariff."

Colt shipped them to the distributors, I never heard of any Hickock types going back to the store saying it just don't shoot right. They left the factory in prime condition and were shot from the git go.

Cheers,

George

[Uprising]

Same Whitworth that got threads named after himself perhaps? There's a point in what you say, but still, one can't quite get a grip of the quality of the machines that were used to make thoose lengendary weapons. I'm no expert in cutting machines but I know for sure that it takes some accuracy in the machines and knowledge to producer, to get a decent product. I find it interresting to hear this, as I've always have thought that the machines used were more or less random accurate!

Have been at some old "tech" museums and every time I'm amazed what they could produce with thoose seemingly clumpsy tools. For instance the powersource would have been steam, right? They had speed regulators at the time, but the speed of the spindles would pend from time to time. And how about the quality and precision of the bearings used? The phrase "who examines the doctors" makes one think about the conditions, which under they built the machineparts for lathes, mills and so on... But of course, not to forget, much of the handcraft performed then is probaly obsolete, forgotten and replaced by automated procedures today.

Regards, Jens

[Uprising]

Scott,

I'd happily purchase one from you, if you care to ship overseas... VTI takes $47 for a new Pietta cylinder. If you still are keen to sell, just PM me and we´ll find something out. I might use some other parts as well.

Thanks, Jens

[sjohns]

Jens,
I am reasonably sure that I can send an unserialized part over seas. I paid approximately 30 for this one in bulk with some other parts. Its in its original plastic bag.

But having sold stuffola on ebay for awhile, I'm not sure that I can get it to you letter post (cheap), but I would try, and there are definite tracking problems.
Global priority mail is the only mail that the US will put insurance on. But IMO it is cost prohibitive, 14 19 dollars.
On the customs form, I would put only "Pietta cylinder" and I doubt the post office folks there would know what it is.

I'm thinking 38.00 to send it letter post.

But for the sake of gab, if anyone thinks, and can show, this is a legal no no let us know. It probably is no problem.

[sundance44s]

Ya might ought to just mark it Pietta parts .. it is a part or parts . not capable of harming anyone .. man with the govements the way they are its a shame , some of the stuff that is excepted over the pond as a way of life .. makes ya want to donate to the NRA .. this is why i stay with the black powder guns .. its a royal pain in the ... to buy a modern gun of any kind here now .. bought a shot gun lately and was so pissed off with the paper work i almost went off .. and walked out .. what a bunch of BS.

[gmatov]

Uprising,

Yes, the same man.

No, the machine quality in those days was not bad, at all. Depending on where you were.

When Sam'l Colt decided to open his London factory, he found that there were NO machines in Europe that were accurate enough for his product, had to have them shipped from the US. After a few years, he found that there was not the skill in London to use even THOSE machines, and closed the factory.

That rather puts the lie to those fabled German mechanical magicians, at least for that time, and the Scottish masters of mechanics, who were the most sought after mechanics of the first half of the 20th century in the US.

Read the book "The Story of the Gun", by Tennent. The English Master Mechanics were working to a 1/32 or 1/16 of an inch, and could not hold that tolrerance, and their peers were loath to point it out, when they missed the mark, lest they be ridiculed when they missed the mark.

Love it. 150 year old book. Have to find a paper copy of it. Easier to read, just flip back to a page, or to the next page to read an extended footnote.

Here is a link:

http://www.again.net/~steve/index.html

Go to "My Pages", "Firearms", "Books", or somesuch, download any or all, 600 plus megs, all zipped PDF files.

Enjoy.

Cheers,

George

I don't know why I am here instead of there, reading. Think I'll go there.

[Uprising]

gmatov,

You're right, that's really impressive! The link you submitted contains quite a load of nice reading! I'm also about to complete my hunting license here, so I'll be glued to the screen this weekend sipping in this useable info and good reading!

Hope you all get a nice weekend too!

Regards, Jens