[MajorPowerchord]

I recently bought a house in Colorado. I drove there over the weekend to close on the house and to store one of my cars in the garage. Since I was going there, I took a few things I didnt want the movers to take. Included were my firearms. I had all firearms in the trunk except for my pistol (which I had besides me on top of my backpack. I had two magazines that were both in my backpack. One was loaded, one was empty.

So I am at the airport ready to fly home when I get a scared feeling at the check-in line. I think "Did I put my gun in my backpack?". I reach in and feel no gun and remember that I put it in the trunk before leaving the house. So I carry my backpack through security and as it goes through the xray machine I see the guy get a 'second opinion' and hear the work "spring". I think they are looking at my wired spiral-bound pad of paper and think nothing of it as he tells the security girl to do a bag check. I'm standing there while she goes through my bag and as she gets to the bottom of the bag her eyes get big and she loudly says "SUPERVISOR". I immediately know that it is a clip and am praying that it is the empty one. The supervisor comes over and shows the empty clip (whew!) to me and asks me to come over to the security admin area about 10 feet away. They do some report, run a criminal check on me and then tell me that I will probably get a nasty-gram in the mail about unauthorized items. I am then led back to check-in where I proceed to put the magazine in a box and check it as baggage.

I was scared for about 10 seconds that I was about to be arrested. I hate it when I do stupid things like that.

[Zundfolge]

It angers me that a law abiding American has to fear serious trouble over what amounts to a minor oversight.

:fire:

[beerslurpy]

I air travel a lot less now that we have all these zero tolerance BS rules. I have to check all my pockets and bags 10x over for ammo, mags and small pistols before I go to the airport. It is quite annoying.

[Deavis]

Are magazines on the ban list? I can't remember seeing them mentioned on any list I've seen posted. It isn't any different than a pex dispensor and it is empty.

[Michigander]

I hate it when I do stupid things like that.

Man! They really have us on a chain, don't they? :(

[hammer4nc]

I'd be curious to know if your nasty-gram includes a monetary fine for breaking TSA rules. Keep us posted. Congratulations, you're now on a "selectee" list, also.

Link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7806697/

['Card]

In December of 2001 I was about 500 feet from the security checkpoint at the airport in Louisville, KY when I realized I'd accidentally left a 'training grenade' (real baseball-style grenade with explosive and primer removed - handle painted blue) in my backpack.

That could have been an unfortunate situation. :)

Honestly though, the only time I've really ever felt threatened by the current set of draconian security measures was when I visited the Empire State Building in New York City. I was standing there waiting to go through the scanner so I could go up to the viewing deck and all the 'touristy' stuff on top of the building. Guy asked me if I had any knives in my possession. I said "Just my Leatherman" and held it up so he could see it. The way they reacted you would have thought I'd whipped out an MP5 and emptied a magazine into the ceiling while shouting "Allah ackbar!" or something.

Who would have thought a Leatherman would be considered a lethal weapon? I guess they were afraid I'd go all McGyver with it and disassemble the elevator or something.

[GTSteve03]

I'd be curious to know if your nasty-gram includes a monetary fine for breaking TSA rules. Keep us posted. Congratulations, you're now on a "selectee" list, also.

So the TSA steals your knife, sells it on eBay (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7670500/), AND wants to fine you for it as well?

When did we start putting up with this kind of crap? Oh, right 9/11! 9/11! Turrists! BOO! :barf:

[Maxwell]

When did we start putting up with this kind of crap? Oh, right 9/11! 9/11! Turrists! BOO!

Something tells me that the terrorist would have accomplished what they did even without weapons.

Its our own fault for giving power to the government, now every agency is in a grab to see how far it can go before someone files a successful lawsuit. Theres probly some old law against molesting a passenger we need to brush off and make useful again.

[brickeyee]

You have not been allowed to bring a firearm or ANY part of a firearm on a plane for many years.
Even a scope is not allowed.
This is not a 9/11 thing, but has been in the rules for much longer.
A magazine is a firearm part and not allowed.

[Nitrogen]

Something tells me that the terrorist would have accomplished what they did even without weapons.


I agree with you, but not for the reasons you listed.
When experts tell you, "Give the man your money, don't fight back!" that kind of thinking gets ingraned into your mind.

A planeload of people, even people soggy around the midsection like most Americans (and myself unfortunately) could have taken a plane back from terrorists armed only with knives. The heros on flight 93 proved that. My feeling is that those people shouldn't have been "heroes" per se. Their reaction should be the reaction of ANY American under fire from terrorists.

Unfortunately, our government tells us that it's never a good idea to fight back. Leave situations like this up to the "professionals" That kind of thought process gets ingrained on you. That's the side effect to cowtowing to the Anti's.

Unfortunately, on an airplane, there's no way for the professionals to get there. The movie "Executive Decision" is pure fantasy. If something were to go down, all you have is the people on board. When you're told, "Don't resist. Give the man what he wants and hope he doesn't hurt you" this kind of thing is inevitible.

EDIT: I don't mean to downplay what the heroes on 93 did. My only point is, that when something like that happens, I wish the reaction from the masses was, "Heck yeah! You don't eff with Americans, they won't take it!" not, "wow, they faught back? How brave!" I'm basically wishing more of us average "non-highroaders" were braver I guess is what i'm saying.

[walking arsenal]

Man! They really have us on a chain, don't they?

No, they don't.

It's like here at THR, "Don't feed the troll".


Dont fly on an airline, drive, tell them WHY you wont get on an airline.

My reason would be the INSANE security checks.

Authorized baggage, yeah right.

Ve is da Gubbamint, ve is har to hep.

When the airlines go (more) bankrupt, maybe theyll loosen things a bit.

[HankB]

Unfortunately, our government tells us that it's never a good idea to fight back. Leave situations like this up to the "professionals" That kind of thought process gets ingrained on you. Why does government cultivate a "Don't fight back when you're being violated" mindset in the general population? Simple - a passive populace used to compliance is easier to deal with when the violators happen to work for the government.

[MS .45]

This kind of no tolerance b.s. really gets to me. I would like them to explain exactly how an unloaded magazine, with no weapon to put it in, is a danger.

[Art Eatman]

Back about 20 years ago, I forgot I had a spare mag in my carry-on bag. The security guys stared at it like it was some strange animal. After a bunch of mumbling discussion, they kept the ammo and let me take the empty mag. I guess what torqued me was the attitude. Total puzzlement that "just a person" would have a spare mag for a 1911.

To tie into some of the thread drift above: Ever think of the irony involved in all the messages from on high about how one's future success in the 21st Century involves independent thought and a quality education? Yet every government program strives to quash independent thought?

Art

[Nitrogen]

This kind of no tolerance b.s. really gets to me. I would like them to explain exactly how an unloaded magazine, with no weapon to put it in, is a danger.


I'll tell you exactly why.
Let's say that there wasn't a zero tolerance. Especially with the idiots that are currently in charge of airport security:

Let's say I bring an empty mag with me through security at DFW, on a flight from Dallas to San Francisco. It's only a magazine, so I get through.

Let's say that a friend of mine brings a gun barrel with him through security at Philadelphia airport. He's also flying to SFO. Since it's only a gun barrel, they let him through.

Then another friend of mine brings a frame through phoenix sky harbor. He's also flying to SFO. Since it's just a frame, no slide, barrel, or mag, they let him through...

Then my last conspirator brings a slide through denver. Since it's only a slide, he's allowed to continue on his flight to san francisco.

I slip one of the janitors at SFO a hundred dollar bill to get me 15 rounds of 9mm ammo past security. Since it's only ammo......

Guess what? I got a firearm into a secure area.

THATS why there's zero tolerance. First of all, it's easier for the people making $10/hr to follow those rules.
Second of all, if you can't get any parts of a gun past security, you can't get a gun past security.

[Gordon Fink]

And if other passengers and the flight crew were also armed, it would hardly matter. :rolleyes:

~G. Fink

[Nitrogen]

This kind of no tolerance b.s. really gets to me. I would like them to explain exactly how an unloaded magazine, with no weapon to put it in, is a danger.


There you go again, trying to win an argument with facts and logic. :neener: :rolleyes:

[Double Naught Spy]

Zundfolge stated, It angers me that a law abiding American has to fear serious trouble over what amounts to a minor oversight.

I understand your frustration. The problem, however, is how the strangers working at places like airports, police departments, etc. can know the difference between a law abiding American that has been so irresponsible where an oversight results in a breakage of the law verus a bad guy who knows quite well that the infraction he is making is illegal and is intentionally committing it in hopes that he will be successful and if not, then he will claim the problem to be an oversight.

Citizens are law abiding until they break the law. Contrary to defense attorney arguments, a lack of a criminal history does not mean one is law abiding. It simply means one has not been caught.

You have to understand that minor oversights can have significant consequences. Calling it a minor oversight seems a bit parallel to the excuse given that such an oversight is a "simple mistake." It is not the complexity of the mistake that is at issue, but the rammifications of making that mistake. There are countless distasterous results from minor oversights and simple mistakes. Not seeing that the light has turned red before you blast through an intersection and t-bone a mom with a carload of kids is minor oversight and a simple mistake. Had there been no collision or you not spotted by the cops for running the light, what's the damage, nothing. It is the same minor oversight and same level of simple mistake whether you kill a car load of kids or not.

So the laws are often focussed on the potential consequences of what such claimed minor oversights might actually turn into when they are in fact not minor oversights, but intentional acts.

There are inherent responsibilities by the passengers who enter security areas at airports in hopes of getting on airiplanes. MajorPowerChord was smart enough and responsible enough to do a "personal systems check" before going through security. That is something more law-abiding people should do, like Barry Switzer, at the time who was head coach of the Dallas Cowboys and doing quite well in the world when he had the minor oversight of leaving a gun in his briefcase and trying to go through airport security. Apparently he wasn't as thoughtful as MajorPowerChord to do a systems check to preclude from getting himself arrested.

Maybe if folks are not responsibile enough to abide by the law for things like guns, then maybe those folks should reconsider. Firearms infractions are not seen as minor oversights by law enforcement most of the time.

[El Barto]

I was flying out of Dallas a couple of months ago when I had a a little trouble at security.

I had bought a gun cleaning kit and was carrying it back in my carry on, so I knew I would get extra attention because of the metal rods in it. They ran it thru the x-ray, then ran it thru again. The security politely asked me to step aside and then asked if I had a gun. I said I didn't and the problem is probably with the kit. They pulled it out and ran my bag thru again and they still found something odd. It turned out that my mini-tripod in my camera case was the culprit. The cleaning kit would have been an issue if it had "chemicals" in it. Overall, polite decent security.

[phonesysphonesys]

My solution to the airline security problem is simple. As everyone boards the plane they are issued a pistol. First person to stand up and be stupid gets
popped.

phonesysphonesys

Semper Fi

[Ezekiel]

And if other passengers and the flight crew were also armed, it would hardly matter.

This is just SO wrong.

My solution to the airline security problem is simple. As everyone boards the plane they are issued a pistol. First person to stand up and be stupid gets popped.

And this is why citizens on airplanes should NOT be armed.

"By all means, let's turn John Q. loose in a pressurized closet at 42,000 feet with .357's." :banghead:

If folks are going to get all antsy about being unable to carry, "don't fly." Merely think of the airlines as private property that you choose to not do business with.

At this point, the odds of me being hijacked between Tulsa and Minneapolis are far, far less risky then offering up firearms to yokels within a limited tactical scope.

[mp510]

I think it's draconian but that's the way it is. I too need to check myself over several times before going through a security check point.

The thing is it is a CRIMINAL and civil offense to bring prohibite items to the checkpoint, even if it is and ACCIDENT.

For years, when the police confiscate an item from somebody it has and is sold at auction. It's nothing new.

[Standing Wolf]

Where does it say all that in the Second Amendment?

[rbernie]

"By all means, let's turn John Q. loose in a pressurized closet at 42,000 feet with .357's."Ever been thru a rapid depressurization on a plane? It's not like in the moooooovies, where people go flying around and get sucked thru the sides of the plane along with everything that's not tied down. In fact, it's about as much of a non-event as there can be.... :rolleyes:

[DRZinn]

Merely think of the airlines as private property that you choose to not do business with.If all the airlines decided not to allow firearms aboard their planes, then that would be a valid point. Since that is not the case, it isn't. Government coercion has taken that decision out of the airlines' control.

[larry_minn]

Thing is TSA is a BAD JOKE> Ihad to fly again. (delivered a truck to CO so needed to get home) Worse part is I had to fly thru Chicago. So I left my gun in CO. :(
I made it thru metal detector and was told to get my bag when the thing BEEPED. (good 4 seconds after I went thru) So lady says "please go back again" The guy says "you have SHOES ON!!!" "you MUST remove them" I reply "no thanks" and go into corral.
The idiot does NOT know how to use a wand and finally realizes it is broke. He moves it in air and it BEEPS. (after checking my wrist/forarm with SHORT SLEEVE SHIRT 5 times. ) He even palpates the skin. (yep its fake I cut my arm off to instal a gattling gun) After all this crap he swabs my shoes and gusss what (THEY TEST POSITIVE So I need to go back and take them off. "No thanks you can take them thru if you want" He of course must get his gloves again. (same gloves he used all day on hundreds of people) :( Walks back holding them at arms length (I did warn him I was NOT responsible for any oders) :)
After going thru I put my stuff back on for flight.

[22-rimfire]

About 10 years years back, I some how forgot that I had left a little switch blade (Itallian stilleto) in my brief case as I went through airport security. I had tried to sell it to some acquaintances on a prior trip and completely forgot about it. Still have the dang cheap thing. (Needless to say, it had made a couple of trips through xray before anyone discovered it.) It was still in the box and had fallen behind the fabric at the hinges in the brief case.... security found it. oops! I had to put it in my checked luggage... actually checked in my briefcase as luggage. My brief case was an airport security person's nightmare as it was crammed full of things like calculators, chargers, and all kinds of odds and ends. Those wrapped wires from the chargers might lead someone to think it was something other than a charger.

Even more years prior to that, I routinely took along a 22 revolver when I went back to visit family to plink and so forth. I never wanted to declare it as I was afraid it would be stolen and just tucked it into my luggage unloaded.... many trips like that. I would never even try such a thing now... I was younger then and they xray luggage too now.

9/11 has changed things. I always carried a swiss army knife ("tinker" usually) in my pocket through airport security. I frequently didn't even take it out my pocket and put it in the tray... those days are over. Steel shanks in hiking boots always did a number on the metal detector walk through thing too. Now you take off your shoes.

My latest swiss army knife is the "locksmith"... big knife, but I really like it! It is certainly a knife to be used. Even has the tooth pick and tweezers. Sorry for diverging from the topic.

[DontBurnMyFlag]

one time I was at the baggage check line at the airport. In my wallet, I had a .223 bullet. NOT the cartridge with the shell, just the bullet. It was a little trinket I got when I was young.

They told me they had to confiscate it because it was prohibited.

Seriously, if these people knew the science behind ammo, explosives and guns, there would be a lot less trouble at airports.

[cracked butt]

I'll tell you exactly why.
Let's say that there wasn't a zero tolerance. Especially with the idiots that are currently in charge of airport security:

Let's say I bring an empty mag with me through security at DFW, on a flight from Dallas to San Francisco. It's only a magazine, so I get through.

Let's say that a friend of mine brings a gun barrel with him through security at Philadelphia airport. He's also flying to SFO. Since it's only a gun barrel, they let him through.

Then another friend of mine brings a frame through phoenix sky harbor. He's also flying to SFO. Since it's just a frame, no slide, barrel, or mag, they let him through...

Then my last conspirator brings a slide through denver. Since it's only a slide, he's allowed to continue on his flight to san francisco.

I slip one of the janitors at SFO a hundred dollar bill to get me 15 rounds of 9mm ammo past security. Since it's only ammo......

Guess what? I got a firearm into a secure area.

THATS why there's zero tolerance. First of all, it's easier for the people making $10/hr to follow those rules.
Second of all, if you can't get any parts of a gun past security, you can't get a gun past security.



That or wait until one of the airport security people leave their sidearm on top of the toilet or on the wash room sink in the secure area. Remember, they are from the government so logically they have to be more competent than the rest of us;)

[cracked butt]

Seriously, if these people knew the science behind ammo, explosives and guns, there would be a lot less trouble at airports.

Then again, if they let you bring a bullet on board, another guy might be allowed to bring a Lee loader on another flight, while another guy gets on a flight with a piece of primed brass, and another guy is allowed to bring on a baggy of smokeless powder and you all meet at the Atlanta airport......:D

[AndyC]

Argh - this reminds me of my first trip out of Kuwait Airport. I'd packed what I'd thought was all my military-type kit into my checked baggage - but forgot that I had a very nice Gerber Legend MultiPlier and CRKT folder in my carry-on pack. Man, those Kuwaiti guards must go to some school where smiles are outlawed - but I guess I deserved that.

[DRZinn]

but I guess I deserved that.Why?

[AndyC]

For being switched-off enough not to realise that my tools are considered weapons by airlines :o

[Lone_Gunman]

Stories like this remind me why I voted for Bush.

He is doing everything in his power to keep us safe, we should just cooperate.

[DRZinn]

For being switched-off enough not to realise that my tools are considered weapons by airlinesBah.

Don't accept the guilt when the real guilt lies in the decision that air travel requires suspension of your rights.

[Gordon Fink]

It may have taken me a while to actually put my finger on it, but I eventually realized that I have always hated being treated like a criminal.

~G. Fink

[3rdpig]

A couple of points.

1. We were warned many years ago about giving up liberties for a perceived sense of safety and despite the warning many in this country are bound and determined to do it anyway.

2. 90% or more of the people living in the US are sheep. They've handed the responsibility for their personal protection over to law enforcement. They don't own guns, are afraid of guns and anyone who even has a gun part and does not have a uniform MUST be a wolf, and wolves are to be feared. Since the TSA people themselves are sheep whenever they see a gun or gun part they do what sheep do best, run in circles and bleat loudly for Momma.

As the mistake in #1 becomes greater and greater, the sheeps fear of wolves (perceived or real) will also become greater and greater. Since they can't protect themselves they don't want to see guns in the hands of anyone without a uniform or government credentials. Their fear is already bordering on phobia, what will they do as it grows even greater?

[BigFatKen]

WASHINGTON -- The skies haven't been friendly lately for David Nelson.

Any David Nelson.


http://archives.californiaaviation.org/airport/msg26610.html

I know this guy. He used to be a nice guy. I know he liked to collect big S&Ws. He was the truck manager at Nelson Bros. Pontiac, Brookfield, WI.

Hhmm, it MAY be someone else, however. I visited Duluth, MN once. I was bored sitting in a bank manager's office. So I opened the phonebook and tried to see if the Viking's kicker was listed. Yes, John Anderson was listed 27 times. There were five pages of Andersons.

[Erebus]

My solution to the airline security problem is simple. As everyone boards the plane they are issued a pistol. First person to stand up and be stupid gets
popped.

I prefer aluminum bats. I don't wanna get shot 40 times by people who close their eyes and empty the gun trying to hit a terrorist. That and how many of these people will know enough to not fire in the direction of the cockpit. If you think guns would be a great deterent to hijacking watch the end of Casino. :D

[SMMAssociates]

I flew from CLE to DFW last week, and back to CLE on Monday.

The folks at CLE were really good about the CS45 in the big suitcase....

Luggage handling and the rent-a-car agency at DFW was a PITA (no carts).

Coming back though, two problems.

The countergal at DFW almost forgot the declaration tag (whee!) and then didn't know where they were when I reminded her. Nice about it, though.

However, when I got home and opened the case, I noticed a TSA "note" in the bag. They'd opened it....

I really don't appreciate that, but between the gun, fifty hollow points, and a bunch of electronic goodies (wall warts for my PDA, Camera, and cellphone), I'm not too surprised.

However, I had packed the ammunition in a "factory" box, secured it with a rubber band, and put a plastic bag around the whole mess just in case something wandered out of the box.

The TSA employee just tossed the ammunition back into the suitcase without "re-assembling" the packaging.... Checking the bag through at another airport may have been a problem due to "loose" ammunition. Wasn't any, but....

Could have been worse.... I took the CS45 'cause it's one that I really don't care about. I'd rather have the insurance money :) .

Ezekiel doesn't seem to understand the pressurization issue, and I kind of like "arm the passengers", but the proper response likely is to simply let those with the appropriate licensing carry without comment....

Regards,

[MagnumCaliber357]

It is very trobling to hear that you should be afraid of having an empty mag in your bag." Youll get a nasy letter" Is really inappropriate.

When was the last time you saw someone get assaulted with an empty magazine :rolleyes:

[Robert Hairless]

I remember that about ten or so years ago a great many people pushed hard for "zero tolerance" policies, especially in schools. So then a little kid is suspended because his mommy accidentally packed a sharp utensil with his lunch, another little kid is suspended because he makes believe his fingers are a gun and he goes "Bang, bang," and another little kid is suspended because he kisses a female classmate. And then a lot of people--many of them the same people who wanted "zero tolerance," I think--are upset because the schools aren't using good judgment.

A lot of people wanted mandatory sentences in criminal courts: tough laws and tough penalties. They don't want the courts to use judgment because human judgment is fallible. A lot of people even supported "three strikes and you're out" laws requiring mandatory life sentences for what they considered habitual offenders, and that's what happened. Many people wanted mandatory death sentences for certain crimes. But then a lot of people get upset because some criminals kill anyone who might be a witness, because they don't want that third strike or the mandatory death sentence.

Much of that has come to pass because that's what people wanted. Why be unhappy?

[c_yeager]

Are we absolutely sure that an empty magazine is even a prohibited item? The thing is completely inert and less of a threat than a pair of nail clippers.

[Lone_Gunman]

Yes, we are completely sure magazines are banned.

The TSA bans all gun parts in carry on baggage, though they can be placed in checked baggage.

Here is a link:

http://www.airsafe.com/issues/security/tsalist_Dec2005.pdf

That is a PDF TSA document. The reference is located on page 2, in the third column (on the right) under the section firearms, guns, and ammunition.