[Cortez]

It is approaching that time of year again when the anti-gun organisations aided and abetted by a frenzied media, insititutes their annual pogrom against legitimate gun owners.

It is difficult for legitimate gun organisations to have their point of view fairly represented at any time of the year in this country but at this particular time, it becomes virtually impossible.

There have been many calls for a public inquiry into this massacre and the government won't have a bar of it. In fact they have clamped a 30 year embargo on the release of any information in relation to the massacre. Odd for a government which has nothing to hide, wouldn't you say?

I wish there were some American investigative journalists who would attempt to tackle an investigation into the massacre. Not a single Australian journalist will touch the story.

I have always believed that there was a lot more to the massacre than the public have been told but it would require a journalist with the tenacity of a ferret to really root out the information.

One thing that has always haunted me about this massacre was the fact that of the 35 people who were killed and the 20 odd who were wounded, NOT ONE of them had the means of protectiing themselves and thereby perhaps cutting down on the number of people killed and hurt.

It is even more damning that 2 weeks following the massacre, the Council of Australian Police Ministers in a formal meeting recommended to the Federal Government that the ownership of firearms for the purpose of self defence not be permitted. This was eventually ratified.

Quite an amazing recommendation considering what had just happened at Port Arthur.

I don't believe a citizen of the USA would be happy if such a law were introduced into the USA following a massacre there.

[mordechaianiliewicz]

I am an American but I have studied Port Aruthur just a little myself. I found out a couple of very fishy things. There were gun control advocates there who said if more restrictive laws are not passed, there WILL be a massacre in Tasmania.

Also, of the shots fired in the cafe, most of them resulted in deaths. That was over 20 people, all shotand killed. By a man with a .223 caliber rifle. In America, as well as the shooting in Canada with a Ruger Mini-14 the kill ratio was not nearly as high.

In fact, the point of the .223 is to wound as opposed to kill. And then we have Martin Bryant. Mr. Bryant was judged mentally ill, no one has spoken to Mr. Bryant about this since.

And the 30 year moratorium (after destroying the place this happened).

Then, we have the fact that all of the Australian gun control orgs seemed to be very well funded by the UN and "child" orgs and NGOs.

I believe that Australia was a test case for an international gun control movement whose ultimate goal is to disarm everyone except for governmental bodies (this of course making resistance to tyranny impossible).

Right now, Australian gun owners need to be a lot hotter than they are about all this (that or move en masse to America :) ) Your government sold you out. Stand up now and fight politically to get your rights back before the government makes it illegal to speak out against these abuses.

Yes, I say that seriously. Governments which disarm citizens are like husbands that beat their wives. It won't end, there is no just once. It will happen until the wife (or the citizenry) steps up. Otherwise the only recourse will be armed conflict. (I hope Aussie gun owners have the fire to do that)

[Standing Wolf]

Governments which disarm citizens are like husbands that beat their wives. It won't end, there is no just once. It will happen until the wife (or the citizenry) steps up. Otherwise the only recourse will be armed conflict.

Excellent comparison!

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Thanks, Standing Wolf

[Spiphel Rike]

Some Australians will come around to your way of thinking if you talk to them about it, but that's the ones who are receptive. Sadly there are no pro gun politicos likely to get into office, and the opposition would be worse and stand for nothing. Howard will stay until he retires. The only way this country will harden up is if the *grammaw wouldn't like what i said* judges get replaced with people with brains and guts. Of course, getting antis to contradict themselves is fun. Like this.
me: a university in the US raffled off an AK clone.
her: that's horrible!!!!
me: you know you'd want one.
her: yes maybe to shoot john howard!!

An anti gunner wanting to destroy an anti gunner, such a beautiful thing. :cool:

[Don of Kalifornia]

Rebecca Peters..know your enemy well..she was at the heart of Port Arthur

[Cortez]

I would love to have some proof of that because I have always felt that the Coalition for Gun COntrol AUstralia of which she was the head, was in some way responsible.

There is something that stinks about the whole business.

[3rdpig]

n fact, the point of the .223 is to wound as opposed to kill.

This statement is false and has been debunked time and time again. While the rest of your statement may be correct, when you put forth such obviously incorrect info as this it forces the question as to the validity of the rest of your information.

[sterling180]

::cuss: :banghead: G'day all of you Australian shooters, I have been doing some research on the internet and on this forum, on the content of your firearm-laws and I have to say,you have the worst Prime-minister in living memory John bloody Howard running your country. He is even worse than John Major and Tony Blair and even Paddy Ashdown,-the former Liberal-Democrat leader.

This man calls himself a Tory and acts as though he is a member of the Liberals.How the hell can he call himself a Conservative, when he pays lip-service to conservative values-including shooting???????? What a Wanker!!!!!!!!!!!
"I hate GUNS" WELL I THINK AUSSIE SHOOTERS HATE YOU,YOU DICK.:cuss: :rolleyes: :


In the UK we have had it tough, in terms of unwarranted attacks on our sport and the banning of full-bore self-loading centrefire rifles and later most kinds of pistols-but at least our pump and semi-auto rimfire rifles and shotties have remained safe to this day, THANK GOD, BUT NO OFFENCE AS YOUR RESTRICTIONS ALSO ANGER ME COMPLETELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On the other hand, you guys have certainly had it tough with the Port Arthur Massacre and all of the fallout and bollocks that accompanied it,but at least you still have proper pistols to shoot and can compete in most disciplines, that we in the UK cannot compete in, these days.

Do any of you think that your government or any government in the forseeable future, will drop the ban on military-appearance rifles?If they do then you can recieve military-style straight-pull rifles from us in the UK-if you want, so you can have the use of an AR-15, or Ruger M14 again, but in a bolt-action format.

It probably seems unlikely that this will happen because of that pompus prat Howard,preaching his anti-gun bull????, but one can hope and pray.

Do you or have any of you travelled to New-Zealand or even abroad to countries like the USA or even the UK, to shoot pump and semi-auto shotguns again and take part in sporting clays and practical disciplines?

Can any of you tell me if there are further planned restrictions and possibly bans on pistols and other legally-permitted firearms in Australia. If you look at our laws and what we have to do in order to get a license, it is far easier to acquire one here in the UK than in Australia, because we don't have to pass any exams to get a license. Training courses and exams in the UK are optional, but are prefered by some police forces, in terms of individual competantcy.

:what: :eek: The one thing that is totally ridiculous, is having to wait 30 goddam months for a collectors permit, to acquire a black-powder revolver, because in the UK these weapons can be acquired in a matter of a few-months, depending on your police force.

To think that my country was bad, in terms of anti-gun hostility, Iv'e only got to look at the wonderful land of OZ, to see that there are others suffering injustice, because of a dopey-bastard, called Martin Bryant-wait he's too thick to pull-off a massacre like that in Port Arthur. Isn't he border-line retarded or was he set up?Hmmmmm John Creepy Howard, you've got a lot to answer for.

Also I will check out this Australian anti-gun website and cause total and utter chaos and maximum outrage, to these pathetic liberal green party pissants.:neener: :evil: :evil: :D
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by sterling180 : Today at 11:05 PM.

[Mr.V.]

One thing that has always haunted me about this massacre was the fact that of the 35 people who were killed and the 20 odd who were wounded, NOT ONE of them had the means of protectiing themselves and thereby perhaps cutting down on the number of people killed and hurt.
Here's the problem.

The anti-gun argument is that if one of those people had been armed, there would be 70 dead and 40 wounded (since now there are two psychos with guns). People who are unfamiliar with firearms frequently don't recognize them as a form of protection, rather they view them exclusively as an implement of murder and terror.

They think if they block the legal market the number of guns in the hands of psychos will be reduced by lowering straw purchases. It denies such facts that tons of illegal narcotics are able to enter the country unscathed and end up in the hands of psychos...why are guns exempt?

But the bottom line is that if a majority of people don't own a gun, and they don't know how to operate a gun, and they haven't even held a gun...that majority will frequently be persuaded to relinquish their gun rights simply because someone says "They're dangerous and since you don't have one why should anyone else?"

The real reason for an assault weapon is to fight your government and its supporters. There are few other reasons. You can argue until you're blue in the face that in the last 100 years alone, more than 60 million people were murdered by their own government...but they'll probably look you in the face and smugly reply "that's not going to happen here, psycho..."

[Cortez]

Mr V

If what you say is the case then we may as well all behave as willing and compliant victims, because there is no hope for any of us.

As a retired professional soldier, I am not going to be anyone's victim and if I can't have a gun to defend myself then I'll find something equally lethal, although perhaps not quite as handy. The trouble in this country is, that if you harm a felon in the commission of a crime, regarless of how serious it is, the chances are he/she will get off and you, the victim, will go to jail.

I don't know how it happened but somewhere aloing the way, the Mad Hatter got his hands on the legislative cake in this country and we are now paying the consequences.

[Mr.V.]

If what you say is the case then we may as well all behave as willing and compliant victims, because there is no hope for any of us.

Cortez--

I don't see how what I said leads to that conclusion. My point is that when a society loses the gun culture...losing gun rights isn't far behind. It becomes easy to make the argument that "you don't have a gun, right? So you're better off if the other people don't have guns either."

If you do lose your gun rights you certainly aren't completely helpless. I never said that. However, you will be far more easily victimized if they're shooting at you with a Steyr-Aug and you're returning fire with a trusty yew bow and cloth-yard-shaft

[Cortez]

Mr V

You are absolutely correct. The thought of trying to string a longbow and draw a shaft in the middle of the night has me in stitiches.:eek: :)

God forbid anything like this should ever come to pass.

You will have to forgive me - I get a bit depressed with the whole firearms situation in Australia at the present time.

[Spiphel Rike]

"However, you will be far more easily victimized if they're shooting at you with a Steyr-Aug and you're returning fire with a trusty yew bow and cloth-yard-shaft."

Are you implying that the Australian army will be sent against its own people? Or do you just think the good old steyr is cool? Sorry, that line seemed a little ambiguous to me.

[fallingblock]

Why wouldn't it be, if little Johnny or some other potentate ordered it?

The nation was founded by Royal Marines guarding the first 'colonists' -

a significant number of whom were in chains.:D

[Spiphel Rike]

That is possible. I suppose the best I can say is that I will not fire, and I will try to get as many others to do the same. But being a lowly reservist the chances of me making a choice like that are pretty dang low.
I'm pretty sure firing at civilians would not qualify as a lawful command.

[fallingblock]

"I'm pretty sure firing at civilians would not qualify as a lawful command."
**********************************************************

I completely agree with your reluctance to fire on civilians,Sphiphel Rike.

Back in 1854, British troops were used to brutally suppress a revolt on Victoria's goldfields - a revolt brought on by government heavy-handedness in the issue and inspection of miners licences.

For the benefit of North American members who may not be familiar with the event, here's a brief account:

http://users.netconnect.com.au/~ianmac/eureka.html

A government force consisting of detachments of British Regiments, the 12th and 40th, plus mounted and foot police of the Victoria Police, attacked an entrenchment of aggrieved gold miners at BALLARAT at daybreak on 3 December 1854. The resulting action, the attack on the Eureka Stockade, is today among Australia's greatest legends.

For two days earlier the gold-miners in revolt seemed to hold the future of Victoria in their grasp. A well-armed group of 'Californians' and Canadians were among parties of 'foreign anarchists' set upon achieving Parliamentary democracy -- and nothing less. But the Irish seemed to predominate, and English Chartists, Scots, Swedes, at least two Italians (one, Raffaello Carboni, fresh from revolutionary Rome), a Jamaican, and an African-American said to be from Baltimore, Maryland, were involved in the uprising. The Ballarat Reform League gave some semblance of organisation to these strands of indignation about gold licensing fees, a desire for political reform, and the general disorder at Ballarat.

To complicate matters, a further force of 800 troops. including a Naval Brigade from HMS Fantome and HMS Electra, with howitzers and shrapnel ammunition, was on its way from Melbourne.Gold Commissioner Robert Rede (who later officiated as Sheriff during the 1880 hanging of bushranger Ned Kelly) decided to strike quickly without waiting for the large reinforcement from Melbourne. Captain J. W. Thomas (40th Regt) and a scout led the combined government force to the Stockade in the early hours of 3 December. The Stockade was all but deserted, few miners believing it would be attacked on the Sabbath. The Stockade was thus taken with minimal casualties, but these increased when mounted police attacked bystanders.

Of some 120 men captured at the Stockade, only 13 were committed for trial. The State Treason Trials commenced in February 1855. Successive Melbourne juries refused to convict any of the defendents. Democratic reforms ensued, with peace being eventually restored on Victoria's goldfields.

Captain Henry Ross, the Canadian
leader at the Eureka Stockade. Known
as Charles Ross in Australian documents,
such as his death certificate, Ross was
shot 10 or 15 minutes after being arrested.
Photograph by S. J. Dixon, of the Electric
Light Photo Galleries, Toronto, Canada
Photo provided by a proud relative in Canada.
**********************************************************

The precedent seems to suggest that when 'government' begins to worry about civil disorder - however justified the disorder may be - 'government' tends to use force at hand to retain control.

During 1968, as a lowly U.S. Army PFC, I was trained in 'riot control' and ordered on standby for civil unrest then in progress in first Washington, D.C. and later Chicago.

I have no doubt that should the situation have continued to spiral out of control in those cities, plenty of federal troops would have been on the scene in short order - with live ammo issued.:uhoh:

[AF_INT1N0]

Are you implying that the Australian army will be sent against its own people? Or do you just think the good old steyr is cool? Sorry, that line seemed a little ambiguous to me.

Thinking otherwise is a dangerous proposition.
see below.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM1.RINGS.OF.TEARS.HTM

No government supported mass murder can be perpetrated without first disarming the populace.

[Hawkmoon]

The precedent seems to suggest that when 'government' begins to worry about civil disorder - however justified the disorder may be - 'government' tends to use force at hand to retain control.

During 1968, as a lowly U.S. Army PFC, I was trained in 'riot control' and ordered on standby for civil unrest then in progress in first Washington, D.C. and later Chicago.

I have no doubt that should the situation have continued to spiral out of control in those cities, plenty of federal troops would have been on the scene in short order - with live ammo issued

Two words:

"Kent State"

[Kager]

Hi Cortez welcome to THR,

Joe Vialls has done some investigation

http://home.overflow.net.au/~nedwood/portarthur.html

He has some good points but I take his stuff with a grain of salt.;)

The latest attack came in the form of Australia Post refusing to carry any firearm related parts, not even scopes! Fortunately they largely backed down on this however they will still not take international post of major firearm parts. Forcing us to use exorbitantly priced courriers:cuss:

Duck and Quail hunting was recently "Banned" in QLD. The reason:

Low populations?
Over Hunting?
Irresponsible hunters?

If you picked one of the above, you were wrong. The real reason was that Peter Beattie QLD Premier decided that enough was enough and that it was "Uncivilized" to shoot poor little birds with nasty guns. Civilized people should only eat meat that they buy in the supermarket.:cuss: :cuss:

OK enough ranting.

Stirling; I like the idea of Bolt action copies of Auto Rifles. Technically speaking they are legal to own. However it is virtually impossible to get approval for importation. :cool: It is possible that we could build them ourselves. But there would be little market for them IMHO most aussie shooters are into either sport shooting or hunting.

I'm sick and tired of hearing from fellow shooters that gun ownership is a privilege and that we shouldn't do anything that might cause greater restrictions. Bunch of sheep.:fire:

Pump rifles are OK, I own one myself. Pump/auto shotguns, auto rimfires are Class C which is possible to obtain if you are an instructor or for pest management in rural areas.

Cortez I live in QLD maybe we could meet up for a shoot or something.

Josh

[ReadyontheRight]

Mr V

You are absolutely correct. The thought of trying to string a longbow and draw a shaft in the middle of the night has me in stitiches.

This brand of disarmament (http://www.opinion.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/10/31/do3102.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2004/10/31/ixopinion.html) would also take away your right to use a bow, arrow, baseball bat, cricket bat, rolling pin or your fists.

Sickening.:barf:

[fallingblock]

"Two words:

"Kent State""
**********************************************************

But those Ohio Guardsmen were still under the control of Ohio's Gov. Rhodes -who was responding to a request by Kent's Mayor for assistance.

I was a member of the regular Army and we were being trained to deal with increasing civil disorder around the U.S.. Events of that era were straining whatever remained of the federal system of government envisioned by the founders of the U.S.:uhoh:




Kagar:
********************************************************** "The latest attack came in the form of Australia Post refusing to carry any firearm related parts, not even scopes! Fortunately they largely backed down on this however they will still not take international post of major firearm parts. Forcing us to use exorbitantly priced courriers."
**********************************************************


Wasn't it interesting that there had been no prior consultation by Australia Post with the Minister for Communications?

I may be getting overly cynical, but methinks little Johnny is quite happy to bypass the system when he wants his way - especially if it helps to rid the civilian population of those 'e-e-e-vil' guns.:scrutiny:


**********************************************************
"Peter Beattie QLD Premier decided that enough was enough and that it was "Uncivilized" to shoot poor little birds with nasty guns."
**********************************************************


So much for "sport hunting" as our justification to own firearms.....:fire:




**********************************************************
"I'm sick and tired of hearing from fellow shooters that gun ownership is a privilege and that we shouldn't do anything that might cause greater restrictions. Bunch of sheep."
**********************************************************


You know how bad it is when SSAA presidents caution their members to never refer to their firearms as "weapons".:rolleyes:

Unfortunately, Australian shooters are relatively few in number and so far have been easy to marginalise politically. As you note, some of us encourage the process by seeking to accomodate government's "sensible firearms laws".
:banghead:

[sterling180]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The post that I supposedly sent a couple of days ago,-I didn't send because I was out and about with one of my friends in London, at the time it was posted.My girlfiend had had some of her friends over and this included some guys that I knew from school who turned up with her friends-and these guys, I dont think like me at all, because they think that I am a weird gun nut and that I am mental, that I have tourette-syndrome.

My drawers were raided and my rough-posts were taken and one of them was the one that was sent a couple of days ago-was modified, specifically offend people and was posted so that I would look like a complete fool in front of everybody and would get kicked-off by a moderator, like Mr Roberts.

My password and username were also taken from my drawer, in my bedroom.

The post that was taken and modified to impersonate my rantings, was actually a post destined for another forum that tolerates moderate language-not for this forum.

So I apologise for any persons who were offended because of the actions of these idiots who thought it was funny to impersonate myself and to trash my name on an internet forum, by posting offensive posts. I did not join up to get shunned and rejected by other members.

I had words with these blokes and I demanded an apology be made on behalf of those who might have been offended but they laughed and said:"No and what are you going to do about it?" and started to push me around, so I hit one of them and I wrestled with another one and stuck his head down my toilet and flushed it twice, whilst hitting his back.

I certainly do not approve of using the word Wanker on this forum, even though it sums up John Howard and Rebecca Peters and their misguided beliefs.

Now some might think that what I did was extreme, but this was also for other obscene insults made against me in the past.I sent the guy packing stinking of toilet water.

They won't come online anymore, because if they do and I hear about it, they will have to stay in hospital for a few-weeks.That will teach those scumbags, not to mess with me.

I am telling the truth so if you don't believed me, well thats your decision, to make.

The previous post was going to be toned down in some areas, before I submitted it, but to add wanker to it, seems too harsh for this forum.Those morons were planning to insult Americans and insult G36-UK, by calling him Scottish names on this forum and to use the F word frequently,as well.

I found a list of names to be insulted.

[Spiphel Rike]

The eureka stockade scenario would be highly unlikely in today's climate. They were english troops, today's troops are obviously a little different. We all got told that if an unlawful command was given we did not have to follow it, but that we'd better be damn sure it wasn't lawful. My sergeant at basic even told us some of the ways he'd managed to get himself out of being charged. :cool:

[sterling180]

:) What is the maximum barrel- length of the replica Winchester 1887 lever-action shotguns, made by Norinco and that Australian company?Do Norinco make interchangable barrells like remington, Mossberg, Ithaca and a few others do? because I am really interested in getting a lever-action 12 guage shottie,imported via one of the UKs main distributors.

When I talk about barrel length, I mean that there is a minimum of "24 on repeating shotguns, here in the UK and the pictures of the Winchester that I have seen, look a tad bit on the shortside.Could any of you guys supply me with some relevent information and also some similar info,on the Bentley pump-action Shotgun?

[mrmeval]

In fact, the point of the .223 is to wound as opposed to kill. And then we have Martin Bryant. Mr. Bryant was judged mentally ill, no one has spoken to Mr. Bryant about this since.

That has never been the case with any rifle ammo the US military has had made. Military 5.56 can be more damaging because seperation at the channelure on impact which causes more severe wounding that would normally be the case with FMJ. We were accused of making ammo against the Geneva convention but ours was outside the listed parameters.

[mrmeval]

All I can offer Australians is send all your women here so we can protect them. :)

[Radagast]

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18637891-2,00.html

AUSTRALIANS are more likely than people in any other developed nation to find themselves the victim of a serious crime, including those of a sexual nature, a major international report has found.
The Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), in its annual report comparing the group's members on a range of issues, found Australia had the highest rate of victimisation.

Between 1990 and the latest available figures, the number of victims of crime increased in Australia.

Australia had the highest proportion of victims of assaults, threats and crimes of a sexual nature of the OECD's member nations, the second highest proportion of burglaries, and high rates of robberies, car thefts and thefts from cars.

New Zealand had the second highest number of victims. The United States, which recorded a fall in victimisation rates, was mid-range.

-------------------

We are obviously a lot safer now!

[Radagast]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/driveby-shooting-number-nine/2006/03/24/1143083939654.html

The running total . . . NSW drive-by shootings since January:

- Mar 24: Man injured when several shots fired at an Auburn supermarket.

- Mar 23: Man shot in shoulder in front of home in Auburn.

- Mar 21: Elderly couple escape injury after drive-by shooting in West Dubbo.

- Mar 20: Shandele Macey dies following a drive-by shooting in Rutherford, near Maitland.

- Feb 27: Couple and three children escape injury after shots fired at their Heckenberg home.

- Feb 25: Man, 80, shot in foot as he slept in his house in Guildford.

- Feb 17: Mother and two children uninjured after shots fired at home in Arncliffe.

- Jan 17: Shots fired from a white Mitsubishi Lancer at a house in Fairfield West.

- Jan 3: Shots fired into a home in Smithfield.

- with AAP


Aussie gun laws obviously work.

[Mr.V.]

Aussie gun laws obviously work.
clearly they aren't strict enough...:rolleyes:

[LAR-15]

Correct me if I am wrong but I would like clarification on several things about Martin Bryant and the Port Arthur Massacre:

1) Was Tasmania the only place one could own semi automatic rifles?

2) What kind of ammo did he use? FMJ? AP? Soft point?

3) Where did he learn to shoot like a pro?

[Cortez]

For Mr V
clearly they aren't strict enough...

I suppose that's true, if you assume that all of these shootings and other gun related crime is being carried out by licensed gun owners. Is that what you are saying? If not, then how can more legislation stop people from acquuiring guns illegally and using them illegally?

If you know the answer to that one why don't you let all authorities world wide in on the secret because they don't seem to know.


FOR LAR-15

No, at the time of the Port Arthur massacre, you could get semi automatic rifles anywhere in Australia.

In Queensland, where I live, you didn't even need a licence - you just went into a shop and bought what ever you wanted. We never had massacres up here.

Bryant is supposed to have used FMJ ammo.

3) Where did he learn to shoot like a pro?


Ah, you noticed that too. A lot of other people have asked that question and been howled down for it here in Australia.

It's curious. I'm ex- regular army and have done a lot of shooting with a wide variety of firearms including the M16. I was considered to be a very good shot but I have to tell you something. IF THE DESCRIPTION OF THE SHOOTINGS ARE TRUE AS THEY ARE DESCRIBED IN THE COURT TRANSCRIPTS - then I for one could never have emulated that sort of marksmanship. (I have a copy of the court transcripts)

The transcripts state that in 90 seconds, Bryant fired 29 shots from a fully loaded 30 round magazine and managed to kill 20 people and wounded a further 12 inside the cafe. Yes you read rightly - 32 people hit with 29 rounds. He then changed to a fresh magazine and exited the cafe. It is worth noting, in case you missed it, that he changed his magazine just one shot short of running out of ammo from that magazine. No doubt a lucky coincidence.

But the really eye popping fact about the cafe shootings is this - every person killed had been shot in the head or the neck and the majority of the wounded also suffered from head or neck wounds. What is even more amazing is that Bryant is alleged to have shot all of these people by shooting from the hip according to the official ballistics report, which I happen to have a copy of.

If the court transcripts are to be accepted, then one has to accept that Bryant achieved a degree of marksmanship unprecedented in group shootings. I for one could never have achieved such a degree of accuracy and I was a very good shot with the M16. By his own admission, Bryant had NOT practised for the event and had not done much live firing with either the AR15 (which he used in the cafe) or the FN-FAL which he used in the car park. Add to this the fact that after the first couple of people had been killed, the vicitms were ducking and weaving around trying to save themselves, then you have to wonder even more how he managed to shoot so many people unerringly in the head and neck.

Give an M16 to any person and ask them to shoot at a number of close in targets, without telling them what to aim for and virtually ALL of them will shoot for the centre of mass ie the body, because that is the surest way of achieviing a hit. You might ponder on that for a while.

Anyway, what can I say? The court transcripts HAVE to be true, don't they?

Martin Bryant, in the cafe, achieved a kill ratio and accuracy unmatched anywhere in the world in mass shootings, without practice, shooting from the hip in 90 seconds, using 29 rounds and killing 20 and wounding a further 12, all with neck and head shots. He then went into the car park and changed his AR15 for a 7.62mm FN FAL rifle and shot and killed a further 15 people and wounded 8 more at ranges varying from point blank to moving targets at a distance of around 150 metres.

For these acts, every Australian legal firearm owner was made collectively responsible by the PM, John Howard, who instituted a ban on all semi automatic rifles in the interests, the PM said, of making the community safer.

Having done this the PM, then had the gall to say, a few weeks later, whilst speaking to a group of angry gun owners, at a rally at Sale in Victoria:

"Now I don’t pretend for a moment ladies and gentlemen that the decision that we have taken is going to guarantee that in the future there won’t be other mass murders. I don’t pretend that for a moment."
PM John Howard Sale Rally 16/6/96



If he really believed that then what were the bans about?

Incidentally, at the time that he addressed this rally, he was wearing a buillet proof vest under his suit jacket. Licensed shooters have never forgiven him for that.

As I mentioned in an earlier posting, soon after the massacre, the government approved a recommendation banning the possession of firearms for the purpose of self defence!!! SIGH. You really have to wonder, don't you?


In the meantime, this year's pogrom against legal gun owners has started already, no doubt because this is the 10th anniversary of the massacre. There was a major item on the news this morning about it and the Bulletin, one of our leading business magazines has a lengthy series of articles on it in its latest issue. If you want to read some of it, the URL is:

http://bulletin.ninemsn.com.au/bulletin/site/articleIDs/1A8DDF5680E127F3CA25713800167476

American readers who manage to wade through the lawyer interviews with Bryant will be struck by the fact that at no time was Bryant ever given a warning that anything he might say could be used in evidence against him and his own lawyer refused to permit Bryant making a plea of Not Guilty.


A monstrous evil took place at Port Arthur in Tasmania, Australia on 28 April 1996 - and it wasn't just the killing of 35 people and the wounding of a further 20. However, I doubt if the truth will ever be known about that massacre. What I do know for sure is that licensed gun owners in this country will continue to be vilified and demonised as they are currently, by anti-gun groups, politicians of all persuasions and the media and that as time goes on, further restrictions on legal gun ownership and use will be implemented "to make the community safer" - and gun crime with illegally owned firearms will contiunue to escalate.

Yep, someone profited greatly from the Port Arthur Massacre and it wasn't legal gun owners. But then, I'm just being a paranoid gun nut, aren't I?

[Carl N. Brown]

I would think you were paranoid, until I learned
that the official report on the Dublane massacre
in UK will be sealed under the Official Secrets Act
for 100 years.

Why?

The killer was a known mental case and police informant/
A set up?

[sterling180]

As I have said on other threads, Thomas Watt Hamilton-the guy responsible for the 1996 Dunblane Massacre, in Scotland- was able to obtain his license, despite the fact that he was mentally-unsound,(Actually stated in a 1991 report to the Cheif, into his background by a CID Detective-Sergent.) because some officers were into child-pornography and struck a deal with him, that if he supplied material, then he would get his license renewed.:fire: :cuss: :what: :eek:

The Cheif Constable counter-signed his license and he was able to buy four handguns-Two Browning Hi-power 9mms and two Smith and Wesson 586 .357s. He was also allowed to purchase 741 rounds of ammunition in total.:mad: :what:

Check out my other posts, if you want some more detailed information on Dunblane, because I have repeated this so many times.:)

As for the 100 year closure-act, well I have some good news for shooters because in the February 2006 Issue of gunmart -three shooters: Mike Wells, Richard Malbon(Editor of Gunmart) and William Scott (Sportsmans Association.) all went to Edinburgh in Scotland to get access to 10,000 pages of files from the Lord-Cullen enquiry. Previously they were denied, even by the BBC and by Sky news from obtaining certain footage and paperwork.

THIS NERD WASN'T AN INFORMANT, HE WAS THE COPS ERRAND BOY(IN OTHER WORDS A 43 YEAR OLD SLIGHTLY-OVERWEIGHT BALDING CREEP, WHO HAD HIS USES- IN EXCHANGE FOR BEING ARRESTED FOR SEXUAL ABUSE AND ILLEGAL PORN.

HE WAS ALSO A FREE-MASON, AS ARE ALOT OF COPS AND PROBABLY MET ALOT THROUGH FREE-MASONRY EVENTS.

[R-Tex12]

Kager wrote: Duck and Quail hunting was recently "Banned" in QLD.

Kager, can you (or any of our Aussie members) give us a little more info on this? Was it done "overnight" or was there some debate? Did Beattie do this on his own or was there some type of legislation?

Queensland certainly has changed since I lived on the Sunshine Coast in the early seventies. :(

Thanks & have a Four X for me!

Rick

[The Viking]

In Queensland, where I live, you didn't even need a licence - you just went into a shop and bought what ever you wanted. We never had massacres up here.
Is there any figures on how many rifles that were sold, and how many that were turned in after the ban? ;) :evil:
How long did it take to get the ban in place after the massacre? Were there an increase in the numbers of rifles sold during that time? Did the stores run out of ammo? :D :evil:
Also, I read somewhere that Bryant had a semi-automatic or maybe fully automatic shotgun in his trunk? Any info on this? What did the law say about shotguns?
Is it true that Bryant is lefthanded, but alledgedly shot from the right hip? (or the other way around). Also a bit strange if so...

[Cortez]

FOR R-TEX12

Duck hunting was banned in Qld as 1 Sep 2005, with virtually no debate and certainly no consultation with shooter orgs here. The Environment Minister, Ms Desley Boyle said, amongst other things:

But overwhelmingly most people concentrated on the cruelty, describing duck and quail shooting as this unnecessary barbaric pastime


Heavily involved in lobbying for this decision was the Animal Liberation Queensland organisation which waged a most effective and long term campaign to ensure that the sport was killed. One of their postings in support of the the bans included the following which I, personally, had never heard of before:

Studies into ‘clean’ kill
A mathematical analysis carried out by Dr G. Russell showed that shooters with a shots per bagged bird ratio of between 4 and 10, will wound approximately 50-150 birds for every 100 birds bagged.

This was also highlighted in a particularly gruesome laboratory experiment conducted by Winchester, (a company that manufactures both arms and ammunition) which indicates the percentage of ducks injured. The researchers tied live ducks to sleds, which moved along at constant speed. A shotgun was fixed to a stand and set up to fire automatically as a sled attached to a live duck moved past. Shooting was therefore conducted under 'ideal conditions' as the gun was completely steady, perfectly aimed and the sled with the ducks moved across the line of fire at a constant speed. Findings reveal:
• When the ducks were 30 metres from the gun, the wounding rate was low
• However at 40 metres, 8% of the birds were not injured badly enough to be classed as 'bagged' (eg they were injured but probably would have got away from the shooter)
• By 50 metres, 50 birds were injured but not 'bagged' for every 100 birds 'bagged'.
So between 40 and 50 metres the injury rate increases sharply with shooters less likely to be able to retrieve ('bag') the injured ducks.

Taking into account this information and understanding that shooters would not possibly be within the 'perfect range' for a definite kill, shows how many ducks are really left injured or left to suffer a slow agonising death.



In my opinion, people who object to hunting should be forced to visit cattle, pig, sheep and poultry abattoirs before being permitted to make criticism of hunting as a "cruel" sport, particularly if they are meat and poultry eaters.


FOR UNARMED SHOOTER

Exact figures are difficult to come by but it is estimated that there were sales of some 3 to 4 million semi automatic rifles in Australia (and the figure could be even hgher) long before the bans came into effect.

During the "buyback" around 650,000 firearms were handed in. There are still a large number of semi autos being held by once legitimate owners who refused to be railroaded by the Federal Governments bans. These people are now "criminals" according to the firearms acts.

As far as I am aware there was no "buy up" of ammo or guns before the bans. The bans were brought into force almost immediately following the massacre, without consultation, (I believe within a fortnight of the massacre) and it was clear that the legislation had been drafted well in advance.

Re Bryant - yes he had a semi automatic Daewoo 12 guage shotgun with him but didn't use it, because, during the police interview, he revealed that this particular gun "frightened" him and he didn't like shooting it!!!

During the police interviews Bryant was asked several times whether he was left or right handed and he maintained vehemently that he was left handed. The DPP case, witness statements and the Ballistics report indicate that the shooter fired the rifles from the right hip. These reports also indicate that the shooter was very calm and controlled during the shooting spree and very methodical in all of his actions.

During the police interviews, Bryant denied he visited Port Arthur that day, not once but many times.

I could go on forever with inconsistencies in the official version of events but as soon as one does this, one is accused of making up "conspiracy theories".

Well I have no such theories other than, that if what happened at Port Arthur that day was exactly as described in the court transcripts and the ballistics report, then either Martin Bryant was a highly trained, highly self-controlled shooter, who also happened to be "mentally retarded and very excitable" OR the Court transcripts and Ballistics report were produced in such a way as to give a particular impression about how events unfolded that day.

I have no other personal views on the matter, except that I, as a highly trained professional soldier, could not have done what Bryant was claimed to have done, in the manner and time in which it was described in the Court transcript. Clearly, Bryant was far better trained than I had ever been, if the court transcipts are to be believed.

[DKSuddeth]

He then changed to a fresh magazine and exited the cafe. It is worth noting, in case you missed it, that he changed his magazine just one shot short of running out of ammo from that magazine. No doubt a lucky coincidence.
This caught my eye. This guy was a professional. In the USMC, we were taught to only load 29 rounds in to the mag so we wouldn't wear the spring out and cause misfeeds in the magazines later life.

[sterling180]

Iv'e fired an assault rifle-the H&k/Enfield SA80 assault rifle, as part of basic training and like many firearms requires alot of practice and concentration.I have also fired the FAL SLR,on certain occasions and this gun is quite heavy has has quite a heavy recoil-only this is my opinion,so others might share a different opinion.You also have to have a level of concentration, when firing a gun.

This guy Bryant, managed to change magazines in the Broad Arrow Cafe, despite being borderline-retarded and having an IQ of 66,-34 points below the average persons intelligence. How does this comprehend logically? he was apparently uncoordinated,when asked about driving, apparently he couldn't drive because he couldn't pass both theory and practical tests.He didn't know his weapons properly either and kept stuttering, rambling incoherantly during his interview with the police.

Can anyone tell me if they think this was a set-up, by the state?

Now in 1987 we had our very own version of Martin Bryant, in the form of Micheal Robert Ryan, who was an unemployed labourer, he was 27 years old,had no girlfriend and lived at home with his mother in their house in the now-infamous market town of Hungerford, Berkshire. He was regarded by many people-including women as socially inadequate and a mummys or momma's boy.

This guy Micheal Ryan was roughly the same age as Martin Bryant in 1987, but was more intelligent.He had a full-manual car license, a Vauxhall Astra(that his mother had bought him.) and a huge collection of guns that mainly consisted of:riot-shotguns, pistols,sub-machine guns-both UK-legal and illegal, a couple of assault rifles and a few pistols.He also had two fragmentation-grenades with him as back-up.

He also made homemade pipe-bombs, that he called:Ryan's specials and apparently brought some to work with him and gave a demonstration to collegues-in the hope that they would buy them off him. His boss caught him with his Beretta at work, tucked into his trouser waistband.When asked what it was doing
at work, Mike replied :"It's for my protection". His boss told him he was an idiot and told him to take it home and never bring it to work again.


On the 19th August 1987, Micheal Ryan,dressed in military fatigues and carrying an AK-47,An M1-Carbine and a Beretta M92FS pistol-that was holstered-went on a Rambo-style killing-spree in his hometown and wasted most people that got in his way.He wore green face-paint and carried his hand-grenades and had pipe-bombs as well-possibly to use against Thames Vally's Swat teams.

He ended up killing 17 people and seriously injured 30 or more others in the killing-spree at Hungerford.He kicked in doors of local residents and attacked them-one being a disabled old-lady in a wheel-chair-whom he shot 15 times with his Beretta and used his AK-47 to waste her husband.

He ended up killing himself with his Beretta and luckly not using any of his explosives against the Swat teams surrounding his former highschool-where he took refuge from the cops and their helicopter.

Now this guy was nuts, but was intelligent-far more][intelligent than Bryant in terms of individual IQ levels and coordination. Plus Ryan practised as many times as possible, with all of his guns, whereas Bryant disliked his Shotgun, rather odd behaviour for a mass-murderer, considering most people thought Bryant was a total invalid/space cadet, whereas with Ryan, people thought he was a Rambo-style freak and shunned him as often asthey could.

The truth is out there somewhere and answers might become available if John Howard opens up. But that won't happen or will it?

[LAR-15]

Cortez,

Thanks for the info.

One other question:

I thought Bryant had recently bought his guns and had never shot anything other an an air (pellet) rifle?

Is this true?

[R-Tex12]

Thanks for the info, Cortez. My condolences on the events in Queensland. Things certainly have changed: when I lived there, one couldn't buy a copy of "Playboy" as Bjelke-Peterson's government had banned it. We could get "Pix", though. :rolleyes:

I still remember the road sign on the Pacific Highway north of Rockhampton stating, "Next 19 Miles Paved"!

We were last in Queensland in 2005 - it is still a truly beautiful place with extraordinarily hospitable people.

Cheers,

Rick

[Radagast]

I don't have links for any of this as I'm going off memory of news reports at the time:

Bryant inherited a load of money from a lotteries heiress who died in a single vehicle car accident with him in the car, IIRC he was driving.

Bryants woke up his parents one morning. He had doused them and their bed with petrol and was holding a lighter.

Bryant was seen to be cleaning up his family property and told neighbours his father had died so he was preparing it for sale. His father was alive. Shortly after his father was found dead in a dam with lead weights on the body.

Bryant was a ward of the state due to his psychiatric record, dating back to being a young child.

His shrink was one Cunningham Dax, a Victorian. I'd be curious to know wether any of the other mass shooters we have had were also his patients or patients of his associates.

Anyone who has seen the movie 'Chopper' about an Australian serial killer might be interested to know he was institutionalised as a child in Victoria, and several other multiple victim shootings have occurred there, each time the media stating the shooter was a product of the mental health system.

Correllation is not causation, but any cop knows to start looking where the links are.

[Cortez]

FOR LAR 15

No - according to Bryant's statement to the police, he had owned the 7.62mm FN for about 7 years and had bought the AR 15, 5 months before the massacre.

He claims to have shot no more than 20 rounds through either rifle.

He also states that he had used an air rifle as a child.

Bryant's interview with the police is a long rambling affair with a lot of contradictions in it, but he was most adamant about his firearms, and the amount of shooting he had done.

He also repeatedly claimed, emphatically, that he did not go to Port Arthur the day of the massacre. Make of that what you will.

For Sterling 180

I don't subscribe to the theory that the federal or state governments had anything to do with the massacre - although I suppose anything is possible. I do have a view, however, that one of the gun control organisations, which had a somewhat notorious female as its head, and was backed by a very powerful media organisation, had something to do with arranging the massacre. Why? Because that organisation had been giving warning for months and weeks before the massacre that a massacre of that type using that type of gun would happen in Tasmania "soon".

One of its spokesmen even appeared on TV a week or so before the massacre, wielding a semi automatic SKS carbine, predicting, again, that a massacre would occur using a gun similar to the one he was holding.

This "forecast" even appeared in the newspapers but no one in authority seemed to follow it up.

In addition, one has to ask who would "benefit" from such a massacre. Judging by the concerted campaign waged by this Tasmanian gun control group it is clear to me that the aiim of having semi automatic firearms banned Australia wide, was their major and oft stated goal and this was achieved.

Clearly the gun control organisation made a lucky guess and the fact that the massacre occurred as described was pure coincidence:rolleyes: I don't know if I mentioned it before but I'm really the Virgin Mary, too.

For R-TEX12

Yes Queensland used to be really great and still is in some ways and not so good in others. I was born here and lived a lot of my life here, so I know about how things have changed.

Incidentally, an amusing aspect of the "Playboy" ban was that whilst I was serving in Vietnam, in 1968/69, sales of "Playboy" through the Australian PX were forbidden because it was thought to have it available would be "bad for morale"(!!) and "unfair" to those back home in Australia who couldn't get it.
Our invitation to those Australians who thought they would be unfairly treated, to join us in Vietnam was never answered. Strange that.

Anyway, we used to get copies through the US PXs plus every other type of pornography you could lay your hands on. Morale, by the way, was never better:)

[LAR-15]

Thanks

20 rounds through three guns sounds awful fishy for such good shooting

[Cortez]

FOR LAR-15

20 rounds through three guns sounds awful fishy for such good shooting


Oh, according to the gun control organisations here "anyone" could do what Bryant did. That's why they were determined to have all semi automatics banned - because they couldn't trust ANY shooter not to go off the rails and commit a massacre.

Some interesting stats re deaths in Australia:

1. It is so rare for a licensed gun owner to commit ANY sort of crime with his firearms that statistics on this simply aren't available. It would be less than one perhaps in every 3 years or more. More restrictions on legal owneership are desperately needed.

2. Meantime, legal drivers kill around 1600 people every year on our roads and maim thousands more - jolly good sport, eh?

3. According to Federal Government statistics, around 18,000 people are killed each year by doctors and nurses in Australian hospitals through carelessness, negligence, incorrect procedure and inappropriate "care". Moral - try NOT to get sick in Australia.


Cleary the problem in Australia, in terms of community safety, is with legal gun owners whose dangerous urges need to be kept rigorously in check at all times.
:banghead:

[The Viking]

Cortez, thanks for the info.
Also read that Bryant had been into a gunstore just days before the shooting took place, cuz he had some trouble with unloading the AR15...more things that don't match.
BTW, what was the laws in Tasmania regarding longarms?
I wont ask about your status as an owner of a semi-automatic rifle :evil:
Oh, and you got the tools for a radical change of politics, should the need arise...keep on to them :)

[Cortez]

THis weekend, several of our major newspapers ran long articles (the Weekend Australian Magazine artilces was 7 pages long) about the Port Arthur Massacre. I imagine the pace and amount of copy will increase as April 28 approaches, this being the 10th anniversary of the massacre.

The articles concentrated mainly on Bryant himself. Some interesting information was revealed.

He originally pleaded Not Guilty to all the charges and maintained that plea for two months. He was given a different lawyer, who, together with his mother, persuaded him to change his plea to guilty. In fact his new lawyer would not entertain the idea of permitting Bryant to plead Not Guilty. (could this ever happen in the US?)

The following excerpts are enlightening:

In a rare interview before the anniversary of the April 28, 1996 killings,
Bryant's mother Carleen says her son won't speak to her.

"Martin is like a zombie," she told The Bulletin magazine. Mrs Bryant, who
lives in southern Tasmania, says one of her deepest regrets is agreeing to
persuade her son to plead guilty.

"My poor Martin," she says. "He couldn't have shot all those people down at
Port Arthur. He didn't have the brains to do it."

Forensic psychologist Ian Joblin examined Bryant after the massacre and
concluded he was borderline intellectually disabled, his IQ equivalent to an
11-year-old.

He also found Bryant was sane at the time of the massacre - a conclusion he
now doubts.

"I now have serious doubts about whether he was sane, but I'm probably the
only one in the world who thinks this," Mr Joblin says.



The Prison psychiatrist who also examined Bryant, confirmed the findings that his IQ was equivalent to an 11 year old, but also noted that he had the emotional development of a 2 year old.

Persoanlly, I don't know if Bryant committed the massacre or not. All I know is that for a person who was of such limited intelligence and even more limited emotional development, he displayed, during the massacre, according to eye witnesses a "cool, unhurried and deliberate manner as he shot his vicitms". If all of this is true, it makes Bryant unique amongst all of the mass murderers the world has ever known.

The is a rotten stench about this whole affair. I wonder if the truth will ever be known?

[Mr.V.]

cortez...sure it could happen here.
Texas has executed several mentally retarded people for murder. It sends the message to the mentally retarded community that they should think long and hard about murder before they commit it. :rolleyes:

However, about what you said. The whole thing sounds creepy. You would have thought there would be more wounded. Forget about the caliber, that many dead:wounded means the guy who did it was a great shot. While some autistics may have the ability to carry out such a massacre, having worked with several developmentally disabled individuals, I find it hard to believe that the amount of planning required for such an event could be carried out by one.

So I agree...something's wrong if he really is mentally retarded. Maybe a cop gone bad? or someone in the mob who paid off the right people?

[Spiphel Rike]

"I wonder if the truth will ever be known?"

I suspect it will be known whenever the gag is released/the documents unsealed. Recently the paper had an article about the black market of weapons in queensland, with statements from the police that it "didn't exist" and various prices ($2300 for a glock 19).

At the end they had a few lines for the SSAA (sporting shooters association of australia) to say "laws only effect good people, they're useless". Of course this might just be some crazy campaign, get people to question the laws then do a big sob story on the 10th anniversary of the massacre. That would of course cement the whole argument into people's minds, sadly.

Mr Bryant being able to shoot lots of head and neck shots with his weak hand from the hip is highly questionable.

[Bluey]

I can safely say the gun laws worked. :rolleyes:
I got offered a new in box ruger .22 pistol with 15 round mag for AU$500 a couple of months ago. Dunno how much that works out to in USD, but I suspect it's not terribly much considering.

[mordechaianiliewicz]

I'm going to advise you now Cortez, you and all Australian gun owners, get your hands on Enemies, Foreign, and Domestic, and unintended Consequences by John Ross. Order. read. meditate. :evil:

Seriously, this was a pro job. There are people capable of this, but most are in units of SAS, Navy Seals, etc. They are pros. There are of course private contractor companies like Blackwater in the US, and Executive Outcomes in South Africa. Someone who is a merk, and assassin, trained in SpecOps by a government did this.

I believe that the forthought and planning seen here makes coincidence an impossibility. I'd suggest you look at future laws. Guns are a tool, kind of like the internet, and lawyers. They are tools which protect your liberty. Taking guns is the 1st step. Afterwards, it's things you can't say, government checks of private property.

I know most Australians (most Americans, for that matter), would think I'm crazy for saying this, but your country is being set up for truly nasty things.

the government is planning these things probably for a couple decades away though. Get gun owners dead, or too old to fight. Make sure the young are afraid. Now, not later, now is the time to take action.

An NRA-esque group should be set up by you to regain your god-given rights (b/c you have the right to self-defense regardless of nation), then do a time limit. 10 years. If there is no change in 10 years, if the government still refuses to admit atleast it's complicity in aiding and abetting mass murder (possibly planning and carrying it out), well as we have been known to say on this site from time to time VOTE FROM THE ROOFTOPS

[Zedicus]

Carl N. Brown: I would think you were paranoid, until I learned
that the official report on the Dublane massacre
in UK will be sealed under the Official Secrets Act
for 100 years.

Why?

The killer was a known mental case and police informant/
A set up?


I used to get called a Tinfoil Hat Yank Nutjob among other things (mostly derogatory) when I mentioned that in the UK.:rolleyes:

One Frothing at the mouth (almost literally) Uber Liberal actually went as far as to say that for questioning the "Official Story" that I was "A Traitor to the Crown" and that I should be Publicly executed & my remains put on public display as a warning...:scrutiny:

needless to say I avoided that person after that & it was one more reason for me to move back to the US...

Cortez, come to Idaho, you both you & your guns would be welcome here.:cool:http://www.thehighroad.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Cortez]

Zedicus

If I were younger and in good health I would LOVE to move permanently to the States.

Could you please persuade President Bush to invade us soon. You'll defeat us easily, because our armed forces have been stripped bare and then you can take us over as your 53(?) state and we could come under your constitution.

Thanks for the invite and I meant what I said at the beginning of this answer.:)

[RevDisk]

Could you please persuade President Bush to invade us soon. You'll defeat us easily, because our armed forces have been stripped bare and then you can take us over as your 53(?) state and we could come under your constitution.

Yes, bringing freedom to your country would be nice and all that. But the real question is, could we get good beer instead of the cheap nasty stuff mass produced domestically? :D

I can see the anti-war t-shirts now, "No blood for beer". Good luck finding college kids to protest THAT.

[Cortez]

mordechaianiliewicz

I always found it strange that everyone except for gun owners accepted the "government" version of what happenend at Port Arthur. However any attempt to try to examine the massacre with a clinical and critical eye is always greeted with derision and outright vilification and those who do not accept the "accepted" version are labelled "conspiracy theorist gun nuts" and are consequently marginalised.

It is impossible to have a rational discussion about the massacre. From the point of view of propaganda and shaping people's minds, the Port Arthur Massacre and its reporting may well go down, one day, as a classical piece of misinformation deliberately designed to hide the truth and shape people's views. The fact that the Federal Government has a 30 year embargo on information relating to the case indicates that there is stuff to hide.

What worries me about Australia is that this country started life as a penal colony, which was ruled by an elite governing class, aided by a strong military force initially and then a para-military police force. This history shaped a lot of the attitudes that exist in Australia today. People who live in the cities for the most part will always toe the government line without question and those that live on the land well away from urban centres have a very much more questioning attitude and a healthy dislike and suspicion of government and the dictates of government. This latter does not sit well with the various governments in this country.

Much of what passes for democratic government here would never be tolerated in the USA. Your constitution is your greatest shield. We have no such thing. We are controlled by "Common Law" and this is a reflection of what ever the parliament of the day wants it to be. Most people don't know this, but Australia is probably one of the most heavily regulated contries in the world.

I have often felt, that, because of our isolation and our small population and the power of government here, we are often used, without our knowledge, as a laboratory for various social engineering experiments. I won't go into detail about this because you'd really think I was a nut case. You have to live here to understand and experience what I'm talking about but I will mention two things that are relevant.

Multiculturalism was thrust down the Austrlian public's collective throats and proclaimed as the answer to the worlds problems. It has proved to be anything but. It has resulted in ethnic enclaves in every capital city in Australia and a refusal by many immigrants who have since become citizens, to integrate into the Australian community. This "ism" is slowly tearing this country apart.

The other thing, which in its own way is even more insidious is what is happening with industry and jobs in this country. You've got similar problems in the States. Most of our major industries have some or all of their operations moved overseas to places like India or China where labour is dirt cheap. We are losing expertise in the industrial area at an ever accelerating pace.

It is highly likely that in the forseeable future this country will be reduce to a dual layered workforce - one layer consisting of those whose qualifications are such that they are in demand anywhere in the world and they can command their own price, and the second layer consisting of the majority of the population whose skills can be matched by poorer countries, thereby destroying employment opportunities here at home. I fear that we will become a country which is purely a resources bin for the world, populated for the greater part by a subservient population which relies for its existence on Social Security.

I'm glad I won't be around a lot longer.:mad:

[Zedicus]

Cortez: I have often felt, that, because of our isolation and our small population and the power of government here, we are often used, without our knowledge, as a laboratory for various social engineering experiments. I won't go into detail about this because you'd really think I was a nut case.

Not me, I spent 10 years in the UK & saw much the same.
(For which many call me a nutjob when I talk about it *shrugs*)


Multiculturalism was thrust down the Austrlian public's collective throats and proclaimed as the answer to the worlds problems. It has proved to be anything but. It has resulted in ethnic enclaves in every capital city in Australia and a refusal by many immigrants who have since become citizens, to integrate into the Australian community. This "ism" is slowly tearing this country apart.

Like I said above In the UK it was much the same, they welcome them with open arms by the boatload, give them everything under the sun, then wonder why the country is deep in debt & there isn't even a fraction of enough jobs to go around & they blame everyone else.

On top of that the UK instead of Hunting down Terrorist's, prefers to "try" to appease them while at the same time stomping their own Citizens rights into the dust.

Where did that get them? oh yeah, the London Bombings:banghead:
which the media was quick to blame everyone else in the world for...:rolleyes: :banghead:

[Mr.V.]

I always found it strange that everyone except for gun owners accepted the "government" version of what happenend at Port Arthur. However...those who do not accept the "accepted" version are labelled "conspiracy theorist gun nuts" and are consequently marginalised.
It's a simple reason, really. Unless a person has actually fired a gun, if someone tells them you can easily convert a Winchester 1873 into a full-auto MG-42, then use it's pistol grip to fire 1200 headshots/second from the hip at 3 miles away, people say "wow really?! Let's get rid of them all!"

Then you're even worse off, because now you'll never be able to get them to a range where they find out like the rest of us how damn hard it is when starting out to get lead on a target at a measly 300ft.

Then they get downright silly, demanding that replica guns and pellet guns get banned because they're being held up by fake guns since they were promised that real guns would disappear into the ether after being banned. Now you have to start searching houses of anyone who may have owned a gun at some point.

Once you lose the gun-culture it's almost impossible to get it back, and then you're left with sillyness and further sillyness (and ultimately frightening violations of civil liberties) to solve the gun-problem. Let this be a lesson to us. At least here in Cali, we're well on our way to the culture's death.

[sterling180]

Martin Bryant


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mass murder in Australia:
Tavistock's Martin Bryant by Allen Douglas and Michael J. Sharp

On April 28, 1996, twenty-eight-year-old Martin Bryant entered the Broad Arrow cafeteria in Port Arthur, in the Australian state of Tasmania.

After eating lunch, he remarked to a patron, "There are a lot of WASPS, not a lot of Japs." He then picked up his bag and walked toward the entrance, where he took out a military-style semi-automatic rifle. Within 15 seconds, he had slaughtered 12 people and injured several more. Some tried to escape; he gunned them down systematically, laughing as he fired. He chased one man onto a waiting bus and killed him, then shot the bus driver. Others tried to hide beneath the bus, but he climbed underneath it and killed them, too.

A young mother with a six- and a three-year-old daughter begged, "Please don't hurt my babies." He shot her and the three-year-old, then pursued the six-year-old behind a tree, where he put the rifle to the girl's neck, and fired. After executing others in the parking lot, he drove some miles to a bed-and-breakfast, the Seascape Cottage, whose elderly owners he had known for most of his life, and whom he had murdered on his way to Port Arthur.

Armed with an extensive arsenal, moving from room to room and firing at police, he kept dozens of members of the elite Special Operations Groups of Tasmania and neighboring Victoria at bay throughout the night. Finally, at 8:45 the next morning, after setting the building afire, Bryant emerged with his clothes alight, screaming, into the arms of waiting police. The final toll, including a hostage Bryant had taken with him to Seascape from Port Arthur, was 35 dead and 20 wounded--the greatest mass murder in Australia's history.

Within days, the Liberal-National coalition government of Prime Minister John Howard called for the adoption of draconian gun control laws, which proposal was protested with huge demonstrations in Melbourne and other Australian cities; Deputy Prime Minister Tim Fischer repeatedly made the false, outlandish accusation that the demonstrations were organized by American statesman Lyndon LaRouche.

- The Tavistock Institute's lone nuts' - As {EIR} has documented (see issue of April 4, 1997), Great Britain is the command center for world terrorism today. This article will demonstrate, through examining the case of Martin Bryant, that the dozens of mass murderers who have exploded into the world's headlines over the last decade or so, constitute a special capability within the Crown's arsenal.

Already in May 1996, after a quick investigation of the Port Arthur massacre, including discussions with Australian police and counter-terror specialists, LaRouche's Australian associates in the Citizens Electoral Council charged in their newspaper, {The New Citizen}, that the incident "bore all the hallmarks of the blind terror' campaigns pioneered by the Tavistock Institute in London, an arm of British intelligence which ... has conducted precisely the kind of experiments necessary to create and manipulate damaged personalities such as Martin Bryant." The article recounted the evidence already in hand to support that conclusion; it was hysterically denounced by some of Australia's major media, and by the British Broadcasting Corporation, which broadcast the thesis all over Europe, in order to deny it.

Further investigations over the past year, supplemented by files on Tavistock which this news service has compiled since 1973, have established the following: 1. The Port Arthur events were indeed coordinated by Tavistock, the premier psychological warfare unit of the British Crown, which was founded in 1920 based upon studies of "shell shock" and related neuroses caused by the trauma of World War|I. Tavistock's strategic mission is to replace a civilization of self-ruling, industrial nation-states with a "post-industrial," globalized world ruled by a tiny oligarchy.

Toward this end, Tavistock specializes in what its own psychiatrists call "brainwashing"--the use of stress-induced fear to artificially create neurotic states of mind, which may be programmed as desired. For instance, Tavistock offered the anxiety-ridden American youth of the 1960s--hit by the Cuban missile crisis, the assassinations of political leaders, and the TV's incessant bloody images of Vietnam--a retreat from this horrifying reality, into the consolations of rock music, drugs, and sex.

Taking the bait, the future leaders of America and other nations regressed into an infantile preoccupation with self; patriotism, and an agapic concern for the "common good," were replaced by a hedonistic obsession with "my body," "my feelings"--a {counter}culture. More generally, Tavistock's "theory of turbulence" specifies that entire populations may be driven into a similar infantile regression by repeated terrorist shocks, such as the bombing of the Oklahoma City federal building, the sarin gas subway bombing in Japan, or the dozens of Martin Bryant-style mass murders around the world over the past decade.

It is precisely the "blind" nature of such events that makes them psychologically so devastating, since there seems to be no answer to the question, "Why?," and therefore, apparently there is little or nothing that can be done to prevent them. 2. British intelligence will trigger such terrorist events where it has control over the local media, and psychiatric, police, and intelligence networks.

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As an island-nation, Australia also offered a "controlled environment" for Tavistock's experiments; in turn, the most isolated part of Australia, the island-state of Tasmania, off the continent's southeastern tip, has served as the perfect Tavistock laboratory. And, Tavistock specifies that, because of the power of the modern mass media, no matter where a terrorist attack takes place, the shock is felt worldwide--it is a "global event." 3. Martin Bryant was monitored, directed, and, in all likelihood, programmed by Tavistock networks in Tasmania, from at least the time that one of Tavistock's senior representatives in Australia, the now 88-year-old Dr. Eric Cunningham Dax, first examined Bryant in 1983-84, and set the parameters for all his future "treatment."

Dax was for decades an associate of Tavistock's longtime leader and World Federation of Mental Health chairman, Dr. John Rawlings Rees. Beginning with his collaboration with Rees in the late 1930s, Dax, by his own account, had specialized in "brainwashing." To cover its tracks, Tavistock invariably circulates what might be called the "Lee Harvey Oswald theory of mass murder"--that each such incident is the result of a "lone nut," who one day just "went crazy."

Such was the "finding" of Melbourne-based British forensic psychiatrist Dr. Paul Mullen, in his evaluation of Bryant for Bryant's defense attorney, in which Mullen concluded, "It would be more satisfactory if one could point to some simple and direct cause of the tragedy at Port Arthur"; unfortunately, Mullen said, one could not.

But, notwithstanding that Bryant was a "lone nut," Mullen confidently predicted to the {Herald Sun} of Feb. 4, 1997, that there would be "more such massacres because of strong evidence of a copycat element," a warning echoed by other Tavistock assets in Australia and abroad. Curiously, Mullen himself reportedly participated in the investigation of two mass slaughters in New Zealand, before coming to Australia. The Bryant case provides some guidelines on how to rip up this Tavistock capability, before the next atrocity is unleashed. -

Shock troops of psychiatrists' - In 1944, Bank of England chief Montagu Norman suddenly quit his banking post in order to start a Tavistock spin-off called the National Association for Mental Health. Norman had been at the apex of the international financial oligarchy: One of his proteges, longtime Australian Reserve Bank head H.C. "Nugget" Coombs, called him the "head of a secret international freemasonry of central bankers."

As such, he had supervised the banking arrangements which put Adolf Hitler in power, as {EIR} History Editor Anton Chaitkin has documented. Norman tapped his Bank of England assistant, Sir Otto Niemeyer, to be the NAMH's treasurer, and Niemeyer's niece Mary Appleby, to be general secretary of the association. Niemeyer is well known to Australians: He headed the infamous "Niemeyer mission" to Depression-wracked Australia in 1930, to tell Australia to savagely cut its health and welfare spending, in order to pay her British creditors.

The British NAMH soon gave birth to the World Federation of Mental Health, one of the first of the innumerable, anti-nation-state "non-governmental organizations" spawned by Tavistock. Affiliated with the United Nations, the WFMH was one-worldist from the outset. To head up the new organization, Norman tapped Brig. Gen. John Rawlings Rees, the head of Tavistock in the 1930s, and then the chief of Britain's World War II Psychological Warfare Directorate.

Rees had commanded 300, mostly Tavistock-trained Army psychiatrists; since then, Tavistock has been almost indistinguishable from the various wings of British Military Intelligence (MI-6, MI-5, SAS, etc.)--a connection perhaps of relevance to the military precision with which Bryant planned and executed his mass slaughter. At the war's end, in a speech to U.S. Army psychiatrists in 1945, Rees called for the creation of "psychiatric shock troops," who would move out of the military and psychiatric institutions, in order to shape society as a whole:

"If we propose to come out into the open and to attack the social and national problems of our day, then we must have shock troops and these cannot be provided by psychiatry based wholly in institutions.

We must have mobile teams of psychiatrists who are free to move around and make contact with the local situation in their particular area.... In every country, groups of psychiatrists linked to each other ... [must begin] to move into the political and governmental field." The "mission" Rees outlined, was to create a situation "where it is possible for people of every social group to have treatment when they need it, {even when they do not wish it}, without the necessity to invoke the law" (emphasis added).

Tavistock's methods were outlined by Dr. William Sargant in his 1950s book, {The Battle for the Mind: A physiology of conversion and brain-washing.} A pioneer in the study of "shell shock," Sargant also emphasized the work of Soviet psychologist Pavlov in the 1920s and 1930s, in particular an incident in which a rising flood trapped some of Pavlov's dogs in their cages, while the water rose up to their heads, before receding. Pavlov found that the intense fear the dogs experienced "wiped clean" the tricks they had been taught, following which they could be "reprogrammed." Further experiments by the SAS/SIS during the 1950s, including in Malaya and Kenya, showed Tavistock that such stress, with resultant "reprogramming" capabilities, could be applied to entire societies.

In a 1961 series of lectures at the University of California Medical School, one of Sargant's closest collaborators, British novelist Aldous Huxley, assessed the notorious MK-Ultra mass drugging and brainwashing experiment which had been under way since the early 1950s. Huxley was the author of the 1952 book, {The Doors of Perception,} which first popularized LSD usage; he had long before fictionalized the results of such experimentation in his novel {Brave New World}. Huxley himself played a key role in MK-Ultra. With such methods, Huxley now said, in 1961 lectures entitled "Control of the Mind," there will be a "method of making people love their servitude and producing dictatorships without tears, so to speak, producing a kind of painless concentration camp for entire societies, so that people will in fact have their liberties taken away from them, but will rather enjoy it, because they will be distracted from any real desire to rebel--by propaganda, or brainwashing, or brainwashing enhanced by pharmacological methods.

And this seems to be the final revolution." Another pet project of Huxley's from the 1930s on, was the creation of what he called the "somatotonic personality": one who would not hesitate to murder. The Tavistockians operate with a construct of the human mind as a {tabula rasa} that can be imprinted, or a mechanical system that can be manipulated by such techniques. Since the essence of the human mind is, on the contrary, its inherent creative capability, Tavistockian brainwashing works only if the brainwashers can create a "controlled environment," in which the victim sees only the alternatives presented by his tormentors. - Tavistock deploys to Australia - In the early 1950s, Rees sent two of his "psychiatric shock troops" to Australia, Dr. Eric Cunningham Dax and Dr. Fred E. Emery.

Dax had written a chapter for Rees's 1949 book, {Modern Practise in Psychological Medicine}, and had trained at the same hospital where Rees had practiced. Dax was also a protege of Sargant. Sargant had initiated a brainwashing technique called "deep sleep," in which patients were given massive doses of drugs, to keep them asleep 20 hours or more a day, which increased their susceptibility to "programming." Under Sargant's tutelage, Dax performed 1,300 experiments in deep sleep, and rapidly became one of Britain's top practitioners of so-called "physical methods" of psychiatry, which included pre-frontal lobotomies, on which Dax wrote a monograph, and electric shock, which was often administered during "deep sleep." The acknowledged problem with "deep sleep," was that up to 2% of the patients subjected to it, died;

those who lived were often psychologically destroyed. Arriving in Australia In 1952, Dax set up the Mental Hygiene Department of Victoria, which in turn set up Australia's entire mental health care system. As Rees said in his introduction to the book he told Dax to write, {Asylum to Community: The Development of The Mental Hygiene Service in Victoria, Australia}: "The Mental Hygiene Service of Victoria, may, indeed, have provided a major training ground in psychiatry and mental health work for all the English-speaking populations of the South-western Pacific region, and this is a matter of very great importance."

[sterling180]

The second Tavistock brainwasher whom Rees dispatched to Melbourne around the same time, and whose work would help shape Dax's own, Dr. Fred Emery, set up shop as Senior Research Officer in the Department of Audio Visual Aids at Melbourne University. There, Emery began conducting experiments on schoolchildren, as described in his article "Psychological Effects of the Western' Film," to see how "oedipal patterns" could be induced in schoolchildren--a subject of some relevance to 28-year-old Martin Bryant, and the mysterious deaths of both his father and Martin's own elderly girl friend.

By the early 1960s, Emery, together with the chairman of Tavistock's governing council, Dr. Eric Trist, was giving lectures to select audiences at Tavistock on methods to brainwash entire societies. In this new age of mass communication, they said, a series of short, universal shocks would destabilize a targetted population, plunging it into a form of "shell shock," a mass neurosis.

If the shocks were repeated over a period of years, a more and more infantile pattern of thinking would develop. Emery elaborated these concepts in his 1967 article in Tavistock's magazine {Human Relations,} entitled, "The Next Thirty Years: Concepts, Methods and Anticipations," and in his 1975 "Futures We Are In." In the latter, he outlined the three stages of this process: 1) People would "lose their moral judgment"; 2) next, "segmentation"--societal disintegration--would begin, in which the individual's focus moves from the nation-state to preoccupation with local community or family; and finally, 3) "disassociation" would set in, "a world in which fantasy and reality are indistinguishable," in which the individual becomes the societal unit.

Emery calls this final result "Clockwork Orange," after the Anthony Burgess novel, in which habitual, random violence by gangs of youth is the order of the day, while adults retreat to their television sets and other forms of "virtual reality."

In 1980, Trist looked back at the last two decades of the assassination of the Kennedys, of Martin Luther King, the Vietnam War, the oil shocks, the Iranian hostage crisis, etc., and announced that the process Tavistock had predicted, had indeed begun, and would now accelerate. Meanwhile, in Australia, Dax brought Sargant to Melbourne on Aug. 14, 1962, to lecture on "The Mechanism of Brainwashing and Conversion." Another of Sargant's proteges, the Sydney-based psychiatrist Dr. Harry Bailey, was a fanatical practitioner of "deep sleep," and killed a number of patients during experiments at the Chelmsford Private Hospital in the 1960s and 1970s.

The resulting scandal led to the convening of an investigatory Royal Commission into Deep Sleep, and to Bailey's own suicide in 1985. As reported in the book {Deep Sleep,} by Brian Bromberger and Janet Fyfe-Yeomans, which chronicled Bailey's experiments, Bailey and Sargant "remained in constant contact for almost 30 years, and ... Bailey often spoke of the competition between them to see who could keep their patients in the deepest coma without killing them."

Dax himself pushed ahead with research on "turbulence," "aggression," and "brainwashing"--all from the Reesian perspective of using psychiatry to shape society as a whole, as exemplified by a speech he gave at the University of Melbourne on July 20, 1964, titled "Some Observations on Psychiatric Research." "It is no more than a few years past," he said, "when psychiatry was solely represented by the mental hospitals, before the child guidance clinics were first begun or the psychiatrists started to move into the outpatient diagnostic centres.... The mental hospitals may be likened to the grandmothers of community psychiatry....

Within the span of a single generation, psychiatrists have been thrown from the protective, circumscribed and alienating walls of these hospitals into a restless, changing and aggressive community, seething with turbulence, which struggles to adjust to the gathering speed of mechanization and the disrupting forces of a disordered society.

"Most of us are more experienced in the treatment of individuals than in correcting the pathological behavior of groups, though there may be an increasing tendency to seek our advice in these and related matters. For instance, the frightening implications of forcible indoctrination of individuals on the one level and communities on the other are closely related to our specialty. Yet almost paradoxically we are driven to consider as to whether modifications of such methods of indoctrination can be used in the treatment of some of the psychoses."

Foreshadowing his work on Martin Bryant, Dax continued: "In many of these fields, the {consideration of aggression is of the greatest importance. There is no more useful subject for research studies at the present time, whether it be in the individual or the group}.

Here, from the individual, the psychiatrist has much to learn. It may be that the aggression is turned inwards, ultimately resulting in suicide, outwards in homicide, or more specifically in hostility towards the community, in causing death on the road...

"Moreover many a murderer has the inability to postpone his strong emotional reactivity to thwarting, and this often has an association with a past history of repeated frustration of a variety with which he has been unable to deal.

Or again, the person who uses a motor car as an extension of his own aggressive body image may be using it in escaping from his anxieties and supposed rejection by the community. Yet it seems that none of these aggressive manifestations would be of the same magnitude were it not for the effect of alcohol. It releases these strains by depressing the inadequate control which spreads its thin veneer over the underlying aggression" (emphasis added).

Precisely these elements were to arise in the Martin Bryant case. In 1969, Dax left his prestigious, highly influential position in Melbourne to go to the backwater state of Tasmania, an island of some 300,000 people off Australia's southeast coast. A prominent U.S. psychiatrist who specializes in ritual abuse, and who is intimately familiar with Australian psychiatry over the past three decades, when queried by this news service as to why in the world Dax would move to Tasmania, replied: "Tasmania is the Appalachia of Australia.

There is a lot of alcoholism, a lot of incest. It is the poorest of all the states, very primitive, with a lot of descendants from very violent criminals from the British days. You will find many people there with no value system, no super-ego. It is the perfect place for Manchurian candidates, and for all sorts of experiments. He could do whatever he wanted there." Something of great interest must have been taking place in Tasmania, because two of Tavistock's leading international operatives, the Melbourne-based Dr. Alan Stoller, a past president of the World Federation of Mental Health and a close associate of John Rawlings Rees and of Dax, and Dr. John Bowlby, went to Tasmania for extended visits in 1971 and 1972, respectively. - Dax and Bryant - From early childhood, Martin Bryant was a very disturbed individual, as British psychiatrist Paul Mullen could not help but record in his evaluation for the defense:

"Mr. Bryant was assessed on a number of occasions by psychologists and psychiatrists.... He was noted to be aggressive, destructive and very difficult with other children.... There are references to him stealing, to him having violent outbursts and to tormenting vulnerable children.... There are records of Mr. Bryant torturing and harassing animals and of tormenting his sister."

Bryant was notorious among his schoolmates for carrying a green can of gasoline, which he constantly threatened to pour on things and set them alight, as he once did so on himself. His schoolmates would frequently remark, "Here comes silly Martin with his can."

Before long, this behavior brought him to the attention of Dax, as Mullen noted: "In February 1984 Mr. Bryant was assessed by a very experienced clinical psychiatrist, Dr. Cunningham-Dax," an evaluation which set the parameters for all further treatment of Bryant.

Contacted by an American academic on April 16, 1997 about his evaluation of Bryant, Dax said, "I left Tasmania in 1983, I think it was, and I had seen him a few times before that, but I had no notes on him, except that I thought that he was below normal intellectually and that his father was very permissive about him. And I wondered about the boy, whether later he might have some schizophrenic features. But that is as far as I went."

Judging by the impact Bryant made on another psychiatrist who examined Bryant soon after, Dax was singularly unobservant. Dr. Ian Sale, psychiatrist for the prosecution, recalled in a discussion on April 16: "When he was about 16 or 17, he was examined by a government doctor for the purpose of a pension assessment. It was to that doctor that he made some reference to having a wish to {shoot people}. She still remembers that to this day" (emphasis added).

Dr. Sale noted that, not only did Dax have "no recall of the assessment," but that, "unfortunately, the clinical notes that were made, were destroyed," ostensibly because Dax "was practicing in the rooms of another psychiatrist. When that psychiatrist died, it was a provision of his will, that his notes be destroyed, apparently, which is remarkable.

And not only were his notes destroyed, but also Dr. Cunningham-Dax's notes were destroyed." The psychiatrist, Dr. T.H.G. Dick, was also British, and had served as Tasmania's medical commissioner beginning in 1969, the year Dax moved to Tasmania. Shortly after, Dax joined Dick on the Medical Advisory Committee to Tasmania's Mental Health Commission. Despite Dax's fascination with aggression, suicide, and murder, Dax claimed he knew very little about Bryant. And, when asked to comment on the relevance of his associate Emery's "theory of turbulence" for the Port Arthur events, Dax replied, guardedly, "I don't think I can answer your question usefully."

This makes an interesting read,indeed.

[geekWithA.45]

Could you please persuade President Bush to invade us soon. You'll defeat us easily, because our armed forces have been stripped bare and then you can take us over as your 53(?) state and we could come under your constitution.

I'm sorry.

You'll have to take a number and get in line.

We have to (re)take NJ, NY, CA, IL and MA first, so they can come under our constitution.

Hint: Building nuclear bombs and acting crazy generally gets you bumped to the front of the list.

[Phetro]

Here is the Port Arthur Massacre in a nutshell:

"There will never be uniform gun laws in Australia until there is a massacre in Tasmania." Barry Unsworth, New South Wales Labour Premiere, spoken at a special meeting in Hobart. Reported by the Sun Herald edition on May 5, 1996.

Well, what a coincidence!

A highly trained combat soldier entered the cafe, and in 90 seconds killed 20 people, and wounded 12 others. Most with head shots. He went on to kill 15 more outside.

The media altered photos of some kid with an IQ of 66 to make him look evil, and proclaimed him as the killer before he had even entered a plea. A retarded kid with barely any firearms experience. Uh-huh, and he has a one-shot kill rate higher than the best snipers on Earth will ever dream of, with moving targets no less, not to mention quicker kills.

A video forgery of "Martin Bryant" running away from the cafe was released. In the background of the video can be seen three men casually standing around smoking, and one filming the runner. Not behavior people exhibit during a traumatic experience.

The .223 rifle used by the killer was found with a cartridge exploded in the chamber, obviously causing the firearm to Kaboom in such a way as would have seriously injured the shooter's hand. And Bryant? No hand injuries whatsoever.

The .223 rifle was documented as having been destroyed by police after its confiscation during a buyback of some sort, long before the killings. And we are expected to believe that Martin Bryant had the brains, know-how, and connections to get his hands on it, not to mention cause documentation of its make-believe destruction.

Yeah. That kid is really a murderer. He should sit in jail forever. :banghead: :cuss: