[thefitzvh]

Malone LaVeigh, you raised some interesting questions in a post now closed, and I feel that others may benefit from this. You're a reasonable man, and I'd like to give ya my perspective on things.

The hole you speak of in the video of the pentagon was cut out by my fellow search and rescue personell to gain access to help fight the fires. The reason for the smoldering above it is that the fire was still burning (and smoke still pouring out) as we used the access hole.

As for why there wasn't too much wreckage, there actually was quite a bit. We hauled it out as soon as possible because we had a lot of rubble to sift through while looking for victims.

Beachmaster's statement of the angle of the plane was also correct.

In addition, in the video the question was raised about the cabling that was "unscathed" by the plane. The cabling was moved there, as the fort belvoir urban search and rescue guys were using it for something. I'm no firefighter (the soldiers from my unit were just there to carry things and help with the manual labor) so i can't tell you what that cable is used for.


Please let's keep it civil in here. I intend to use this thread to answer people's questions about the pentagon attack from the perspective of a rescue worker... some people want answers, and I believe that as a government employed rescue worker, I have a duty to answer them. Lemme know what else you all have questions about, please.

I've posted this info once before, a LOOONG time ago, but i was very angry at the theories... now i just want people to hear the truth from someone who was there.

[MechAg94]

That was one of the problems with the video that I saw. It was raising questions about the pictures but didn't tell you when the pictures were taken, who took them, or give you alternate angles of the same area.

It was typical of conspiracy stuff in that it gave you a limited view of things intended to slant you toward the same conclusion, and throws it all at you quickly with limited time to study the pics. It still wasn't very believable to me when you think about what it was actually saying. I am usually suspicious of that stuff I guess.

[TexasRifleman]

now i just want people to hear the truth from someone who was there.

The reason the other post was closed, and the reason this one will soon be, is that there are a certain number of people that do not want to hear the truth.

They prefer the conspiracy theories because it puts the current administration at fault. That group will accept nothing less than total blame on GW Bush for this and everything else that has gone wrong in this country and their lives since 9/11. If it wasn't Bush it would be Kerry. It has nothing to do with Republicans or Democrats.
They just need a single source to blame for their woes and this is handy.

Don't waste your time.....

[tulsamal]

I used to have students ask me if I watched "The X-Files." I told them no. I didn't watch the show because it was promoting the idea that virtually everything is a vast conspiracy. You can never really know just exactly who is behind what. Sometimes it will be the government. Sometimes it will be people who somehow secretly control the government. Sometimes this whole outlook leads them further to space aliens, etc. but it doesn't have to go that far.

It's just not a useful way of understanding the world. It leads to people who feel like they have no real control over their destiny. If they succeed or fail, it is all really outside of their actions. I thought at the time (and still do) that the TV show was promoting and reinforcing ideas that were going to result in even fewer people voting or getting interested in politics. What's the point? The "smoking man" is controlling everything! Don't listen to anything any politician says; they are all lying. Seems unlikely to me. I always start thinking of a certain razor when I hear some of their convoluted theories. (I think these people all "came into their own" with the JFK assasination and then the "fake moon landings." They've just been shifting their targets ever since!)

Gregg

[beerslurpy]

Thanks for posting fitz. First hand accounts are indispensible in settling conspiracy theories or exposing coverups.

[NukemJim]

Thanks for posting fitz. First hand accounts are indispensible in settling conspiracy theories or exposing coverups.


+1

And to "thefitz" thanks for serving our country.

NukemJim

[Thin Black Line]

Questions are always good. Asking why 3 buildings collapsed in under 12
hours almost perfectly onto their own footprints, obstensibly due to fire
when many other buildings have burned and not done that, is not a
sign of a feeble mind, but rather that of an inquiring mind.

I had a distant relative (a rescue worker) killed on 9-11, and another
family member lost a neighbor as well.

I'm going to ask questions. Asking why one of the hijacker's IDs was
found in the rubble is akin to asking how a perfectly 100% intact rifle
bullet that was found on a Texas governor's stretcher was also able
somehow able to leave fragments in his leg after a president was
assassinated during the same shooting incident.

I suppose a paper ID can survive a fire that melts steel and causes
a building to collapse is just as possible as a complete rifle bullet still
leaving additional fragments? :confused: :rolleyes:

[jd25q]

Questions are always good. Asking why 3 buildings collapsed in under 12 hours almost perfectly onto their own footprints, obstensibly due to fire
when many other buildings have burned and not done that, is not a
sign of a feeble mind, but rather that of an inquiring mind.


I heard this argument somewhere as well. They showed all these buildings that burned for longer than the twin towers and didn't fall. Must be a conspiracy huh? What they conveniently didn't mention in the comparison was that none of these other buildings were struck by a 200 ton airplane traveling at 400 mph.

I'm still amazed that people can see a building sustain such an impact, and burn with such a fury as there must have been with all that jet fuel, and be suprised that it fell.

[thefitzvh]

"I suppose a paper ID can survive a fire that melts steel and causes
a building to collapse is just as possible as a complete rifle bullet still
leaving additional fragments? "


Odd objects survive fires all the time. It's the same principle as two houses being destroyed by a twister and the one in between them is untouched... chance.

A fire that melted steel and caused buildings to collapse also left some of the bodies untouched... i found someone dead of smoke inhalation literally RIGHT NEXT to someone who had been burned to death.

EDIT: Odd that my post count clicked over to "911" for this post... lol... creeeeeeepy

[TexasRifleman]

Odd that my post count clicked over to "911" for this post... lol... creeeeeeepy

It didn't. The government hacked into Olegs servers to change your post count.

It's a warning from the Inner Sanctum. :rolleyes:

[thefitzvh]

Guess i'm safe now, then, huh?:evil:

[Thin Black Line]

What they conveniently didn't mention in the comparison was that none of these other buildings were struck by a 200 ton airplane traveling at 400 mph.

What plane struck WTC7?

Odd objects survive fires all the time.

Sure, just like a cup of water can be left standing after a tornado tears
a house in half or a piece of straw can be stuck in a tree trunk. However,
these things do not happen all the time and it's the exceptions that do
stand out for us. This is what makes the natural world so interesting.

How many IDs have you found after a fire that melts steel and caused a
high rise to collapse? I wonder how many IDs of the other people on
the same flight were found?

Sometimes it's the unlikely things that stand out. Sometimes it's the
little impossibilities that make people question things....like finding an
ID after such an inferno.

I'm not ruling it out. I suppose it's just as likely as finding a 100% intact
bullet that leaves behind fragments, part of itself, in someone's leg.
Probably has something to do with advance physics that I can't comprehend.

[Erebus]

Not to mention the design of those buildings as compared the WTC was not even mentioned. They were/are tall buildings and WTC was tall buildings so they should all respond exactly the same to very different conditions? The only commonality was that flames were involved.

Saw a program on The History Channel(if memory serves) that had the architect of the towers on it and he said that the buildings collapsed due to the design of the floor trusses. The fireproof coating was blown off of the trusses by the plane impact and explosion. Then the fire caused them to soften and eventualy sag under the weight of the concrete and pull out of the beams. The trusses never actually failed, they just sagged enough to fall from where they were connected to the perimeter beams. Once enough had fallen out the entire floor pancaked the one below it and started a chain reaction. THe demolition argument doesn't fly as controlled collapse starts at the base not the top.

My assumption of what happened in the lobbies would be pressure and a shockwave produced by the explosion of the plane traveling down stairwells and elevator shafts.

The secondary explosions people were reporting prior to the building collapsing was likely those giant floor trusses falling onto the floor below. The sound echoing through the building could very easily been mistaken for explosions considering the stress those involved were under.

The "explosions" that were shown as the buildings were collapsing probably weren't explosions at all. As one floor pancaked the one below the air between those floors had to go somewhere. It likely went out the sides and down to the floors below and caused dust and debris to blow out holes in windows.

[ReadyontheRight]

They prefer the conspiracy theories because it puts the current administration at fault. That group will accept nothing less than total blame on GW Bush for this and everything else that has gone wrong in this country and their lives since 9/11. If it wasn't Bush it would be Kerry. It has nothing to do with Republicans or Democrats.
They just need a single source to blame for their woes and this is handy.


There seems to be an increasing desire to create a "King" to shift responsibility for everything - good or bad - to the government.

[jd25q]

What plane struck WTC7?

Again, you drop 1,000,000 tons of steel and concrete in the middle of a city and you are suprised there was collateral damage? What must that have done to the foundations of nearby buildings? Think the equivilant of 16 (fully loaded) panamax bulk cargo ships.

[Thin Black Line]

And it's amazing how many other buildings, including those much smaller,
survived the same impact within the same perimeter, that WTC7 did not.

Yeah, I need help understanding that one --like most people living in NYC
now do....:confused:

[Thin Black Line]

There seems to be an increasing desire to create a "King" to shift responsibility for everything - good or bad - to the government.

Or, likewise, not to question what your government has to say --especially
when the Partiya you voted for is in power.

[Erebus]

From what I heard WtC7 had a large amount of deisel fuel under it for generators that caught fire. THat and the equivalent of 2 major earthquakes brought that building down.

I don't think "Why did WTC7 fall?" is the question, but how did the others manage to remain standing?

[TallPine]

I am more interested in knowing:

1) why the govt (president) ignored warnings that a major terrorist attack was going to occur?

2) why the FBI refused to investigate the tips from citizens that Arabs were wanting to learn to fly but not take off and land jetliners? (and why they now claim to want "tips" from alert citizens?)

3) why the "Patriot Act" was all written up and ready to go before 9-11-01?

4) why the Bush administration (through his appointed cabinet members) has fought tooth and nail to keep airline pilots from being effectively armed despite the mandate from congress to do so?

5) why the Bush administration refuses to secure our borders?

6) For that matter, why did Clinton basically ignore Arab terror threats for 8 years ...? :rolleyes:


All of the fruitcake conspiracy theories only serve to muddy the waters and divert discussion from actual known issues.

[antsi]

-----quote--------
Thanks for posting fitz. First hand accounts are indispensible in settling conspiracy theories or exposing coverups.
-------------------

If he was allowed to be there, then he must be part of the conspiracy [putting my tinfoil hat back on]

That's the problem with conspiracy theory buffs. Any kind of witness account or evidence you offer to disprove their theory is "just another part of the conspiracy." That flake Bart Sibrel who believes the moon landings were a hoax is totally convinced that Aldrin and Armstrong and the others are all lying to us - the firsthand account isn't dispelling his conspiracy mindset.

I also do not buy the "mild version" conspiracy theories such as the FBI ignoring leads, etc. This is the same thing as the Pearl Harbor conspiracy theories. First of all, the FBI/CIA get all kinds of tips and info coming in all the time, most of it irrelevant, much of it false, and it isn't easy to put the information together into a coherent picture, especially if you don't know what you're looking for.

Pearl Harbor was not anticipated because the people in charge didn't think something like that could happen. It is in the nature of shocking unexpected events that people don't tend to be on the lookout for them beforehand. Afterwards, looking through the retrospectoscope, you can always say "we should have seen this coming," but that is the nature of hindsight.

[roo_ster]

antsi, let me play the gramma nazi:
That's the problem with conspiracy theory buff[oon]s.
Hey, anybody can make a spelling error.

[Thin Black Line]

I also do not buy the "mild version" conspiracy theories such as the FBI ignoring leads, etc.

The field agent who was investigating Mouss certainly was NOT ignoring
leads, in fact, yes a FACT, he was hindered by superiors. The Army under
Able Danger was NOT ignoring leads, in fact, yes another FACT, they were
also hindered by superiors.

You can claim the Gov't investigated and others can claim it did not and
both are somewhat right. Isn't it great to have your cake and eat it, too ;)

[TallPine]

I also do not buy the "mild version" conspiracy theories such as the FBI ignoring leads, etc.
You know, I might not either if it was the only thing. Obviously, the govt doesn't have god-like powers to predict the future. (though they might like us to think that when it is convenient to them)

But when you combine it with the way the govt has capitalized on the 9-11 tragedy to increase it's powers while at the same time ignoring some things (like the borders, armed pilots, etc) that actually might provide a little security. But it's easier for the TSA to traumatize ladies at airport terminals:rolleyes:

And not that I totally blame Bush for all this (he is, of course, the one currently responsible), because Gore & Co would have done the same thing or worse. In fact, I truly believe that most of the Democrat/leftist venom against Bush is because They weren't in power on 9-11-01 and able to take advantage of the situation to increase their powers.

[geekWithA.45]

Never attribute to conspiracy that which can be explained by cockup.

[TallPine]

Never attribute to conspiracy that which can be explained by cockup.
That's always a possiblity as well, in which case the feral govt isn't competent enough to pour water out of a bucket with the directions printed on the bottom, let alone impose new restrictions on civil liberties or start foreign wars.:(

[FireBreather01]

One of the reasons the towers fell as they did is due to their design - being built more like an exo-skeleton with the lion's share of weight supported by the vertical steel frame-work that surrounded the building, as opposed to traditional sky-scrapers that have vertical steel beams throughout the structure. While that traditional construction is prone to twisting, falling, and tipping should they fail, the towers' structure lent itself to inward collapse, especially because, as someone else posted, the floors then were able to pancake upon themselves all the way down, without any interference from vertical steel within the structures.

[thefitzvh]

If there was a missile in the pentagon, how did they cram civilian women and a child (there may have been more than one, but I pulled one out), as well as civilian airliner seats, drink carts, lavatory parts etc, into a missile?

I'm not saying that the government may have ignored signs... all I'm saying is that our government was definately not the perp.

Now, does the gov. ignoring signs infer that they were malicious? No... but remember, our government is for the large part incompetent. They may have had information about the attacks, but they are a large, slow, dumb, bureaucratic institution... they are HORRIBLE at their jobs...

There's no conspiracy here. Incompetence, arrogance, and stupidity maybe... but no conspiracy.

[Thin Black Line]

No one mentioned a missile....but, hey let's just add that to the whole
moon landing thing, too. After all, if I'm questioning a couple things
about 911, I must be questioning everything, right? :rolleyes:

Oh, how I love sophistry and we Americans are all so expert at it.

[John Hicks]

I have a coworker who was on his way to the Pentagon for a meeting that day. He was stuck on I-395 and the Washington Blvd. Exit to get to the parking lot. The plane flew right over his car. He said it was the most surreal thing he'd ever seen.

He's definitely not part of the .gov and he's certainly not high enough to be part of any conspiracy. Plane hit building. Damage, fire, and explosions resulted. End of story.

jh

[bowfin]

I don't think you can fight conspiracy theories with facts, because you just become part of the conspiracy.

I was once labelled a Right Wing apologist for pointing out that F-15 Eagles could not go 2,000 mph at sea level to catch and shoot down the second plane that hit the Twin Towers, and even if they could, they would have burned up all their onboard fuel in six minutes, becoming inefficient gliders long before reaching any conceivable intercept point.

[Dain Bramage]

Not to hijack this thread, but this is gun related:

how a perfectly 100% intact rifle
bullet that was found on a Texas governor's stretcher was also able
somehow able to leave fragments in his leg after a president was
assassinated during the same shooting incident

The "Pristine Bullet" only looks pristine from one angle, and that is the photograph most commonly shown. Other angles clearly show the bullet to be flattened and with lead fragments squeezed out of the base. As a lot of things in conspiracy theories, it depends on your point of view.

The other clear lie about this bullet is that it had to zigzag to hit both the President and Gov. Connally. In diagrams claiming this as fact, Connally and JFK are shown sitting at the same level, directly in line, as they would in a standard Lincoln car of the time. This claim has died down somewhat as it became known that the limousine was not a stock Lincoln. The Governor was sitting in a jump seat that was both lower and further in that Kennedy's seat, lining up the shot perfectly.

[Trip20]

Can someone give me a pithy thesis on the motive for the apparent conspiracy(ies) involving 9/11?

I've paid very little attention to the conspiracy theories. The little attention I have paid never really revealed the motive.

Thanks. It'll give me something to consider in between rolling my eyes and knodding off.

[TallPine]

Can someone give me a pithy thesis on the motive for the apparent conspiracy(ies) involving 9/11?
"War is the health of the state"

[Can'thavenuthingood]

Motive is to sell books, make money and be important.

http://usinfo.state.gov/media/Archive/2005/Jun/28-581634.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To investigate 16 of the most prevalent claims made by conspiracy theorists, POPULAR MECHANICS assembled a team of nine researchers and reporters who, together with PM editors, consulted more than 70 professionals in fields that form the core content of this magazine, including aviation, engineering and the military.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=1&c=y

Best debunkers I've seen.

Vick

[roo_ster]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...tml?page=1&c=y

Best debunkers I've seen.
That just proves that PM is part of the conspiracy. :rolleyes:

I prefer the commercial grade tinfoil at Costco, BTW.

[autospike]

The "Pristine Bullet" only looks pristine from one angle, and that is the photograph most commonly shown. Other angles clearly show the bullet to be flattened and with lead fragments squeezed out of the base. As a lot of things in conspiracy theories, it depends on your point of view.

The other clear lie about this bullet is that it had to zigzag to hit both the President and Gov. Connally. In diagrams claiming this as fact, Connally and JFK are shown sitting at the same level, directly in line, as they would in a standard Lincoln car of the time. This claim has died down somewhat as it became known that the limousine was not a stock Lincoln. The Governor was sitting in a jump seat that was both lower and further in that Kennedy's seat, lining up the shot perfectly.

Thanks for posting that. Saved me the trouble. This info has been out there for a LONG time. I really don't understand why folks can't (refuse) to acknowledge it.

I saw a bank burn to the ground once. 3 or 4 blocks away, we found hundreds - maybe thousands - of pristine deposit slips. Not the slightest bit suprised to find an ID from someone after a plane crash.

[leroy]

it was a cleverly planned and executed diversion.:scrutiny:

so nobody noticed the aliens landing in antartica.:what: :D

[Hutch]

Y'know, 10% of the people in this country think that the Moon landings were faked, but studio wrestling is real. Let it be.

[Strings]

>but studio wrestling is real<

Are you saying it's not?!?? :scrutiny:















:neener:

[Art Eatman]

Questions for fitz? Fine. Thread's open.

Wandering off through the rosebushes? Oops.

Art

[Thin Black Line]

Hmmm...more sophistry....I never said there weren't planes that
hit buildings.....

Two pics of the pristine bullet --maybe the other showing the
back half missing? Source?

Mod, don't forget to lock the gate behind ya otherwise the cows
will leave the pasture ;)

[Dravur]

Ok, class, time to put on the tinfoil hats and wait for the aliens...

You were wondering why Able Danger and the OP who was tracking a couple of these dudes were ignored and the kibosh was put ont hem. Well, you know it was Karl Rove! Yep, he told these guys to ignore it. He went around and ungreased the wheels. Yep, and why? cuz the aliens told him to.

Now for the real reason....You are dealing with Beureacrats. Simple as that. The easiest thing for a beureaucrat to do is....nothing. That way, they cannot be blamed for anything. When Able Danger says that there are arab dudes learning how to fly planes but not land, pass it up the food chain until someone sits on it. When the agent watching a dude is giving a warning, the response is... well, watch him and let us know if he does anything else.

And now the biggy! GW waas warned that an atack could take place... ok, Now follow the logic. I tell you that maybe, just maybe, my dog will be coming to your yard to take a dump.... We don't know when, and we don't know how hes going to get in your yard, maybe he has a parachute. We also don't know if he really is going to take the dump. You now have to protect your 300 million blades of grass. do you...
A. Hire several dozen police to watch your yard, knowing you would need about 1 million of them to protect every blade?
B. File this under "Things I cannot do much about until they happen"
c. Be as vigilant as possible and blow the dogs brains out when he steps into the yard.

Simply put, we were complacent and did not realize we were in WWIV and didnt even know it. When something like a maybe proposition comes across the president's desk that may or may not happen, has not happened and has no way of knowing if it will happen, should he get immediatly on the phone with Batman or trust his Intelligence assets that they are doing what they need to to correct this situation. Now, admittedly, our intelligence departments were run like a herd of mangled cats, but that is not the Prez's fault.

You do realize that the Prez appoints top level dudes, but the generic CIA wonk is just that. some dude trying to make a mortgage payment. These are the guys just trying to CYA.

Just remember, There is never a good Conspiracy that can't be explained by the incompetence of a few government b'crats.

I'm done

[TallPine]

Now for the real reason....You are dealing with Beureacrats. Simple as that. The easiest thing for a beureaucrat to do is....nothing. That way, they cannot be blamed for anything. When Able Danger says that there are arab dudes learning how to fly planes but not land, pass it up the food chain until someone sits on it. When the agent watching a dude is giving a warning, the response is... well, watch him and let us know if he does anything else.

Which is of course why the government needs more powers to spy on and detain American citizens without a trial, so that they can ignore whatever information that they collect ... :rolleyes:

The govt is either stupid or evil, which isn't a lot of comfort either way:p

[Trip20]

Thought this video was fitting (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7501020220921158523&q=bull****&pl=true).

[Leatherneck]

Another Pentagon witness here. I was in my office on the ground floor right around the corner from the impact site at 9:32 am on 9/11/01. We all thought it was a truck bomb at the South loading dock. It was a HUGE explosion, and during a career in attack aviation and airplane testing, I've gathered some little knowledge of explosions. There was an immediate overwhelming smell of jet aviation fuel permeating the Pentagon and center court following the explosion. Unmistakable. A friend who was working up the hill at the Navy Annex that morning heard and felt a large aircraft very low over the Annex. By the time she could get to the window, the impact had accurred, so she never actually laid eyes on Flight 77.

For days afterward, the core of a high-bypass turbofan engine (like the AA 757's RB-211) laid in AE Drive, an internal driveway about halfway through the building.

The reasons, I believe, for the relatively limited damage to the Pentagon are two:
1. The impact area had just completed a renovation intended to extend the life of the Pentagon another 50 years, and
2. The honeycomb structure is of 50-year-old concrete, poured during WW II with extra concrete to make up for a paucity of structural steel. Most parts of the structure are immense and hard.

Conspiracy theories are fun, but I wouldn't recommend anybody bet the house payment on this particular one.

TC