.38 Spcl Ammo Questions

[perpster]

I would like to bulk-buy .38 Spcl ammo for breaking-in new shooters at the range (paper targets). However, I'd like the ammo to have some defensive use if needed. Yes, I have some good .38 +P Speer GDHP ammo, but if I'm going to buy 500 or 1,000 rounds I'd like it to be somewhat effective for both target (primarily) and defense (secondarily).

Would +P be too much for new shooters? They'd be learning on S&W Model 10 4" mostly, maybe a 686 4" or longer, and maybe J-frame later on.

Any thoughts? Thanks in advance, Perp

[Dave Markowitz]

I would not start new shooters with +Ps in a K-Frame. Too much recoil. Normally I start newbies with a .22, but a .38 loaded with wadcutters works well, too. The most powerful load I'd use for a new shooter would be a standard pressure .38 158 grain LRN or SWC.

The cheapest good .38 loads out there are stuff like the 130 grain Ball from Federal, Remington or Winchester, and WWB 150 grain LRN. I've shot over a thousand rounds of the latter through K-Frames and J-Frames, and it works well.

BTW, I would definitely not start anyone off on a J-Frame. They are too small and the recoil from a .38 is a lot sharper than in a belt sized gun.

[Greek]

I would go with regular 158 gr semi wadcutters.

[RidgwayCO]

Fiocchi makes a very nice 148gr JHP at standard pressure in .38 Special. Sportman's Guide has them at $9.47 for a box of 50. The factory rates them at 820 fps, and they're very comfortable and accurate in my 4" 686 Plus.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=92045

[HankB]

Would +P be too much for new shooters? They'd be learning on S&W Model 10 4" mostly, maybe a 686 4" or longer, and maybe J-frame later on.
ANY .38 load will be mild out of a 686 - even a "newbie" ought to have no problem with it. Just don't be "funny" and slip in a full .357, especially if the new shooter is female. (Hint: Be sure the newbie has protective eyewear and GOOD, WELL-FITTING ear protectors. The loud "BANG" of a real gun is usually more disconcerting to new shooters than the recoil.)

Once they're used to the 686, you can move down to the M10 and - lastly - the J-frame.

[the kurch man]

and when I switch from my 642 to my 686, it's night and day. I had a couple of newbies at the range the other night who had never shot, and I let them shoot both of them. The 642 had some kick to it and I was not running anything other than a .38 spcl load. Put the same loads in the 686 and it was definately more comfortable for them. I did not run any .357s in the 686 nor did I do any +p loads in the 642.

Bottom line, I agree with the others. Stick with the basic and if you run some .38 ammo thru the 686, all the better for the shooters (and wallet).

[perpster]

Does jacketed vs. lead make any difference shooting or cleaning wise?

[Poodleshooter]

Jacketed will almost always shoot cleaner. Accuracy between the two is a matter of opinion.
Some generic 130gr TMJ/FMJ in .38 from Remington or Winchester would make a good newbie round.
If I wanted a round for "everything" I'd choose the old reliable lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint. It will cause leading of course,but it's an accurate load and was the standard for terminal performance in the old days.

[the kurch man]

My local range will not allow lead, so I use FMJ, but in the times I have shot lead, it is a much dirtier proposition. You can almost see the dirt cloud each time it's discharged.

[psychophipps]

I'm also looking at a .38 Special for my Dad when he's down in Mexico. Seems they don't like anything hotter for civilian use down in that part of the world. Anyone with any experience with the 125-grain +P Golden Saber?

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

[RON in PA]

psychophipps: unless you hate your father (assuming he's a tourist) don't allow him to even have a single cartridge if he going to Mexico. Mexican prisons make American prisons look like resorts.

[psychophipps]

Well, he'd get it registered legally, of course. You can send a request to the Mexican government to bring a pistol and ammunition acrossed the border, easily enough. I'll be going for a Mexican CCW while I'm at it.

Two states should be enough, I think...
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

[dawei]

http://www.magtechammunition.com/sitepages/pid103.php?productId=578&ltemplate=details&templateId=14&pageId=103&search=details

http://www.magtechammunition.com/sitepages/pid103.php?productId=580&ltemplate=details&templateId=14&pageId=103&search=details

[perpster]

Thanks for all the replies. I checked out a number of the recommendations and from what was both reasonably priced and available, the cheapest seems to be Aguila 158 gr semi-jacketed HP. Including shipping it comes out to 16.7 cents/round.

Would this be a good learning round and still have some credible self-defense usage? (To get that price have to buy 1,000 rounds).

Edited to add:
The nearest alternative was 1,200 rounds of Cabela's remanufactured 158 gr LSWC at 19.1 cents/round shipped, and that includes 4 plastic "ammo dry boxes". However, I'm thinking it's a lot easier to clean the barrel after shooting semi-jacketed to make the Aguila the better pick (and Aguila is factory new, not remanufactured).

Any thoughts?

[DaltonSpringfield]

My local range will not allow lead,

Why not, I have heard of it the other way, some ranges (i.e. CAS) will not allow FMJ due to ricoches, But I have never heard of a range banning lead ammo, Please enlighten me, For I am ignorant of such things.


I have shot lead, it is a much dirtier proposition.

While that may be true in some cases, the vast majority of fouling is powder fouling from factory loads, It all depends on what powder the loader/reloader used, I use Trailboss and Clays, both seem to burn clean and leave minimal fouling, I have used Unique in the past and It is a mess. I am not sure on what factory loads use what powder as I reload myown ammo.


If you intend to use a great deal of ammo, consider one of these options.
1. Reload yourself, if using only .38SPC you can pick up a Lee reloading press and all the goodies that go along with it for under $300, then your cost per round and quality is totaly in your hands, and much cheaper than buying factory ammo.

2. If you don't want to learn the art of reloading (it is not for everyone) or just plain don't have the time to reload 1000+ rounds a week, consider using a 3rd party reloader, I am not sure where you are, but at gun shows in Ohio you can go to any number of reloader's booths and buy/order custom handloads. Going that route, you can decide what you want, order it in bulk and save a bundle of $$$. The reloader I used to use was "Pop's Place" and ordering 5000 rounds per month of .38SPC Using 3.3gr Trailboss powder and a 125gr LFN bullet (custom loaded to my specs for cowboy action shooting). Would cost me $450, that is $4.50 per box for a total cost per round of 9 cents. Reloading myself costs about 6 cents per round or about $3 per box.
Your milage may vary, Just some ideas from the peanut gallery.

Dalton

[perpster]

Don't have the time, space or inclination (at present) to reload. Here in PRNY gun shows are few and far between.

[DaltonSpringfield]

Somewhere I have the Name and number of a reloading outfit in cleveland OH that I and some friends have used. They will ship to you (provided that is legal in PRNY). They are slightly more expensive than the $4.50 a box deal unless you get into brass exchange with them. I totaly understand the time crunch, I used to have to load for hours friday night before the CAS matches. Now I come home thursday night and load enough for a month on friday. I will look that number up again and post it here, probably tommorrow.


Dalton

[V-fib]

Perpster,

I’ll be heading down to Dundee MI Cabelas this weekend to get 1,200 rds of the .38sp 158gr. swc myself. I’ve shot this for a couple of years in my 642 and have not noticed the gun any dirtier than with any other round. The quality of the ammo is very good and I’ve never had a ftf. Like you, I don’t have the urge to reload and since I routinely shoot only about 30 to 50 rounds a month this will last me for a while. (prices are climbing on ammo!) Some may disagree but I also use it as my carry ammo. :cool:

[Dave Markowitz]

<definitely not start anyone off on a J-Frame. They are too small and the recoil from a .38 is a lot sharper than in a belt sized gun>

You have just made the argument in favor of the J-frame .32 MAG. Slight drop in ballistics from .38, half the recoil, so they say. Never shot one. Maybe someone out there who has could add comment.

Aside from recoil, MOST J-Frames are 2" snubbies, which some of the most difficult handguns to shoot well. Most J-Frames, even in .22 LR, make poor guns for training a newbie.

Don't get me wrong, I own two S&W M-640s in .38 Special (2" and 3"). But introducing a newbie to shooting is not an appropriate use for a snubbie.

[innerpiece9]

Hi perpster!

would you be so kind as to provide a link to that Aguila SJHP ammo you found?

Thanks!
ip9.

[perpster]

Was looking to buy CCI Blazer 158 gr +P JHP for when students are ready to advance from standard pressure but they don't seem to be made anymore (not on CCI's website anyway).

Is there an inexpensively priced .38 spcl +P cartridge with a bullet config that would have at least marginal self-defense value (eg hollow point) but that is partially jacketed (for easier cleaning)? I don't want to go with FMJ/TMJ/Ball because of its poor self-defense terminal ballistics.

The Aguilla or even Cabella's would be perfect (158 grain SJHP) but they seem to made in standard pressure only, not +P (unless I'm missing it).

Innerpiece9: Here's where I got the Aguilla: http://aimsurplus.com/acatalog/copy_of__38spl.html

Please note that it is the ONLY .38 ammo they have listed at the moment. IIRC months ago they had at least a few other offerings, so you might not want to wait too long.

Dave Markowitz and the other conernced posters: I will definately not be starting new shooters on a snubby. 38 standard pressure from a 4" K (or L if I find a good used shooter at a fair price) frame will be elementary/grade school. High school will be +P from the 4" K/L. They'll go to college on the J in standard pressure. If they want to go to grad school it'll be on a snubby with +P. Those seeking the highest higher education can enroll for .357 school. :)

Thanks to all who have posted here and in advance to all who will be posting.

Perp

[dawei]

http://www.magtechammunition.com/sitepages/pid103.php

#38E is a 158gr SJHP

[perpster]

Dawei: Thanks. 38H is the +P version, 38E is std pressure.

Any idea who carries Magtech at good prices online? On their website MSRP is 30 cents/round. Yikes!

[Hammerdown]

Would +P be too much for new shooters? They'd be learning on S&W Model 10 4" mostly, maybe a 686 4" or longer, and maybe J-frame later on.

Hello perpster
I see a concern here. Not ALL S&W revolver's in the model you mention ARE safe to Fire the Plus-P. loads due to excessive pressure over the standard .38 special.I recently gave my Father a gun he wanted for Christmas. It was an early Flat latch Chief special made around 1954. This revolver was NOT made to use Plus-P ammo in. He had a hard time digesting this, and I told him if you want it to blow up in your hand then by all means USE the Plus-P !This statement placed enough common sense in him that he will use the appropriate ammo for this revolver. The Plus-P. ammo will only ADD a measly 200 F.P.S. to it's claim as a much faster ammo any ways, and this is not enough velocity to CHANCE spoiling a perfectly good revolver over or placing ones self in the direct line of such failure to get hurt from it. If one Want's Magnum performance from a revolver, then I suggest buying a magnum rated revolver..Plus-P ammo is not a good ammo to coach new comer's that are just learning about handguns as well. This MAY lead them to think plus-P. ammo can be fired from ANY revolver that is marked .38 Special causing harm to them as well. I would start them off with standard .38 special ammo intended for the revolver's it was made for, and as other's mentioned it should have less recoil. I personally used a K-22 to complete my hand gun carry course, and some that brought .45 semi-Auto's snickered at this BEFORE they saw the ten ring results, when compared to THERES. The .22 rimefire is an excellent caliber for newbies and will gain ten ring confidence and make them better marksman due to its non existent recoil.. Just a thought,Hammerdown

[perpster]

Thanks for your concern, Hammerdown. I'm well aware of which of my revolvers can fire +P safely.

[Hammerdown]

I'm well aware of which of my revolvers can fire +P safely.

Hello Perpster :uhoh:
I did not mean to come across in a negative way,nor mean no disrespect but too many times this Plus-P. ammo get's shoved into any .38 special without even a thought, on the user's part.:eek: I assume most of the older K-frames would not have trouble digesting any of the Plus-P. ammo unless they were the real old Hand eject's being Pre-10's I would not hesitate on using Plus-P. ;) The problem lies in the fact I have seen alot of instructors NOT touch on the hazard that can arrise from using Plus-P. ammo in a revolver not rated for it, and would say that is exactly Why S&W is branding the newer-J-frame barrels that will shoot the Plus-P. without issues..:) Hammerdown

[perpster]

Hammerdown, it's a valid concern and no offense taken.

[innerpiece9]

thanks forthe link perpster!

if yer after +p.. mabey look into Remington UMC 130Gr SJHP.
(2 brass cased loads in pic)

By the box they are about $16 bux at a walmart... Im shure you could find a deal on them better than that.http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=38573&d=1145326237

[innerpiece9]

PS: thats $16 bux for a 100rd box..... not 50... and they may be 125 Gr...


ip9

[perpster]

Innerpiece: I'm looking for 158 grain because supposedly S&W snubs are POA=POA with 158 grain. I'm looking for it in hollow point so it will have at least some defensive capability, and I'm looking for semi-jacketed for easier cleaning/less leading. However, the ammo you quoted is tempting. Hmmm.

BTW, what model is that nice looking outerpiece? I'm curious about that full length underlug but part-length extractor.

[DaltonSpringfield]

Sorry it took me so long, here is the contact info for Pop's Place reloading out of Northeast Ohio (Cleveland area). Once you decide what load you want just call Dave at 440-355-4450 and place your order. I can say from experiance his ammo is 100% reliable and loaded to your specs. And his prices are great.

Pop's Place Ammo
440-355-4450
Contact: Dave

Happy shooting.

Dalton

[DWARREN123]

I have had incidences of spitting with some 158 gr LRN ammo in 38spl and 357mag revolvers, please be aware of this as it may scare new shooters.