Has the new Charles Daly HP been released yet?


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Beorn
April 19, 2003, 09:14 PM
This looks good. A Charles Daly clone of the old Browning Hi Power. With the exception of 10-rd mags (thanks Klinton) and the writing on the slide, it looks exactly like the original.

Any knowledge on this one folks? I'd love to have a HP for a ESP gun in IDPA...

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railroader
April 19, 2003, 09:57 PM
Just a thought, "Charles Daly" is also known as "KBI" and KBI has imported FEG hipowers in the past. Do you think these hipowers are assembled here with FEG parts? Mark

cratz2
April 19, 2003, 10:07 PM
I don't think it will have the same parts as the FEG. No offense to the FEG as my experience with them is generally positive but the actual metal doesn't seem like it would hold up as long as the FNs.

George Hill
April 28, 2003, 12:24 AM
ETA for this pistol is 5.11.03

Comes with Express sights as standard! SWEEETNESS!
Jonesing for this gun big time. I want one bad. 500 bucks suggested retail.
http://www.charlesdaly.com/images/firearms/pistols/dalyhp/dalyhpromance.jpg
I gotta have it.

Handy
April 28, 2003, 12:34 AM
$500 for a gun that used to retail for $250.

This is the best thing to come along since the HS2000 became the XD and went up several hundred.:uhoh:



Anybody noticed those FM HPs CDNN is selling for $269?

Dr.Rob
April 28, 2003, 05:06 AM
Based on the slide cuts I'd wager its a true clone, but I'd still bet its built by FEG of Hungary. And while it might not say FN on the slide they do make dandy IDPA/Defensive pistols.

The FEG was up to over $250 with the old sights, I'd guess we'll see $350-400 street price on this.

And yeah Handy when i bought mine you could still trade a pair of Levis for a car in Budapest, but times change.

Rocko
April 28, 2003, 11:35 AM
Word at http://www.fnhipower.com is that these are assembled in the US out of FEG parts - supposedly this info is direct from KBI. So, basically the same pistol with a few cosmetic changes (sights, grips, etc) at a significantly higher price. Based on the suggested retail vs. street on the other guns in the Charles Daly line, they'll likely go for around $400.

Rocko

chaim
April 28, 2003, 12:40 PM
Even if true that they are FEG parts, you put on a set of $50-80 sights, nicer grips, use a much nicer finish and make it in the US with possible better workmanship and you no longer have simply the same gun at a higher price. Add the "Made in the USA" label (better quality or not), better finish, better sights and nicer grips and I think it is easily worth the extra $150 it will probably cost over the basic FEG. I know I'm interested.

Wildalaska
April 28, 2003, 01:11 PM
And golly for about $150 more you can get the real thing, not some Hungarian junk,,,,

In fact go to Guns America there are usually used Belginas there for asbout $499...

Why get a clone then....

WildyagetwhatyapayforAlaska

Handy
April 28, 2003, 01:20 PM
Dr. Rob,

How many pairs of Levi's will you pay me for these new $200 FEGs:

http://www.southernohiogun.com/new_hand.html

Sure, the P9M isn't a perfect clone, but who cares? It's a quality steel gun with a nice finish that takes Hi-Power mags, shoots like a Hi-Power, feels like a Hi-Power and looks like a Hi-Power.

The differences between the two guns aren't even economic, some parts are just shaped different.

Daly is going to pay FEG to make an older version of a gun they currently produce, and double the price. Wow, thanks alot.


I'm thinking of buying an HS2000 and see if the SA custom shop can melt "XD" into the grip for $200.

If I buy some Taurus 92s and put the safety on the slide like the Beretta, will you guys pay me $500 for them?

George Hill
April 28, 2003, 02:15 PM
Charles Daly has something that a base FEG doesn't have.
1. A good finish with no tool marks.
2. Good sights right out of the box. (the best sights?)
3. Coverage under a warranty to protect the gun...

#3 is probably the most important. If you have a problem, you call CD, they tell you to send it in, and a month later, your gun comes back better than new. This was what made the Springfield XD such a hit over the HS2000... that and a lot better marketing... but even with marketing, if that crazy design wasn't covered by Springfield, few would have ponied up to try it.

Handy
April 28, 2003, 02:27 PM
All KBI imported firearms also had a warranty. It's the same company, after all.

I'm willing to bet that nearly every new firearm is required to be warranteed by the domestic importer/manufacturer.

Daly is offering a better warranty now. And better sights. For twice the price.


Hopefully, this 100% price increase will help remove the cheap gun stigma from from the FEG products.:rolleyes:

Handy
April 28, 2003, 02:46 PM
I was just looking at the Daly website. There is no way of telling where the parts came from. They only list manufacturers for the DDA and 1911 pistols.

This raises the question, is this an FEG gun at all? Israel also makes HP parts (DDA was Israeli). Or they could be Argentine FMs. Anyone know?


George, how did you know there were fewer machine marks? When did you see one?


Hey, if these things end up being perfect HPs and cost $300 or so, I'm all for them. But considering the availability of FEG guns at $200 and FM guns for $270, I advise caution before hailing this new clone as the American dream when it is still just a clone.

And those goofy Ashley sights would be the first thing I'd change. What else fits in that dovetail?

firestar
April 28, 2003, 02:48 PM
If I buy some Taurus 92s and put the safety on the slide like the Beretta, will you guys pay me $500 for them?

Not if it still says "Taurus" on it!:D

Handy
April 28, 2003, 02:58 PM
No Firestar,

It will say "Handy" and "made in USA".

railroader
April 28, 2003, 03:49 PM
Here's something you should know about the "Charles Daly" warranty. If you or any smith does anything to your gun your warranty will voided. So if you take out the mag disconnect your warranty will be worthless. I have a DDa that has no warranty because I put more tension on the slide stop spring because the slide was locking open with rounds in the mag. It still had problems so the gun was sent to Daly and they fixed it and voided the warranty because the spring had been tweaked. They said no one can work on their guns but them. Mark

Correia
April 28, 2003, 04:03 PM
No dog in this fight, but I will say one thing. Ashley sights are not "goofy". They actually work very well. They are quick, and your eye picks up the large dot really fast. Much quicker than traditional sights, dots, or night sights.

George Hill
April 28, 2003, 04:16 PM
I've handled several FEG HPs that did indeed have tool marks on them. The finish was pathetic and the overall gun felt like it was made from a special alloy of Zinc and Pot Metal.

In other words, the gun felt like crap to me, and looked worse.
Other HPs never felt like that.

Spackler
April 28, 2003, 05:00 PM
Here's something you should know about the "Charles Daly" warranty. If you or any smith does anything to your gun your warranty will voided.

You'd be hard-pressed to find any manufacturer who doesn't have the same policy.

Handy
April 28, 2003, 06:06 PM
George,

What did FEG do to make the good tool steel feel like zinc?

Also, where did you see the tool mark-less Daly HP?


Corriea,

The sights may work well for defense shooting, but a lot of people use the accurate HP for targets, and it is my understanding that the Ashley system gives up a fair amount of precision for speed. It just seems strange to offer a "classic" with such modern (and possibly goofy) sights.

George Hill
April 28, 2003, 06:38 PM
Handy, your questions are seeming to me to be like personal attacks. I was talking about the picture... :rolleyes:

Handy
April 28, 2003, 06:51 PM
George,

I'm sorry you feel that way.


I was actually asking you what quality a steel gun might have to make it feel like pot metal. The C&S people say the FEGs are made of quite decent steel, so that cheap feel must come from somewhere else, and I was asking what you think it might be.


As far as tool marks go, I had never noticed them being particularly conspicuous on the on the PJKs I've handled, so I assumed you were speaking of internal tool marks. Hence my question about where you examined the Daly HP (and its guts).

I hadn't realized you were saying it was externally mark free because of the picture from the brochure.

railroader
April 28, 2003, 08:58 PM
Spackler, you mean if you changed the sights or put a steel mainspring housing in a kimber they would void your warranty? Kimber has sent me grip busings for me to install. I also have a CZ that needed more tension on the slide stop spring. Cz's gunsmith gave me instructions on how to tweak the spring which I did on both the cz and the daly. Heck I have had parts sent to me under warranty for my HS 2000. I just think daly is being overly picky. Mark

Spackler
April 28, 2003, 09:13 PM
What I mean is, if you send your Sig, Glock, Beretta, etc. to a gunsmith for a trigger job, or new sights, or grip reduction, the factory warranty is voided. Most factory warranties are written that way. I believe they do this as a CYA thing, and don't always enforce this rule, although they can and will if it suits them.

It's the same principle as the "no reloads" thing that's in every warranty out there. They have to know that people are going to shoot reloads, but they put it in there anyway.

George Hill
April 28, 2003, 09:38 PM
I can't put my finger on it Handy... the FEGs just didn't feel right.
Something about the weight... the surface finish...
It reminded me of the Pheonix .22 but I can't explain why.
It radiated "Cheap" vibes to me.

As soon as a Utah dealer gets a CD HP in, I'm there.

HankB
April 28, 2003, 10:43 PM
I'll reserve judgement until I see one of these Charles Daly HP's.

I will say that the FN-marked HiPowers don't impress me at all with fit or finish, and the plethora of deep numbers and importer marks really uglifies (is that a word?) these guns.

On the other hand, I just handled a NEWLY IMPORTED BROWNING MkIII HP - the dealer had it labeled "Type S" - that had much better workmanship. The exposed part of the barrel over the chamber is contoured a bit differently than my late '90's MkIII, and the finish is not quite as nice, but it's still much nicer than the FN-marked pistols.

He was asking around $625 . . .

Dr.Rob
April 28, 2003, 10:53 PM
OK since I own a few FEG's.. I'll pipe in.

Yes this Charles Daley LOOKS better, but thats just a promo photo.

My early model PJK 9HP indeed has tooling marks, particularly on the muzzle crown on the slide (big nicks) and the bluing is wearing to grey on the back strap. Now understand when I bought this I didn't HAVE $400 for a nicer pistol so a few marks were no big deal and it doesn't jam if you clean it once in a while. I turned in a warrenty card when I bought the gun (FEG has been around for 100 years or so, like CZ). I had to replace the tiny safety with an extended one I could use.

Now my buddy Dan was so impressed he bought the same one as me. He left the tiny safety, his had less toolibng marks than mine. His blueing is holding up better. However, he's only shot his maybe 500 times total, where as I'm shooting 200 rds a month or so through mine (and I wear the blue off all my autos along the backstrap).

Dad was so impressed HE bought an FEG PJK9HP, but his is newer, no machine marks but its NOT really a clone as the slide stop and slide stop cut on the slide are different. Feels a little better in your hand as the controls are better from trhe factory, sights were painted better as well.

Now I have another buddy that wants an FEG. I warned him they have been going up in price, partially thanks to guys like me that shoot and praise them as a bargain. Maybe KBI/Charles Daily realized they already have a pistol that can shoot, they just need to buff it up a bit to be able to charge $400+ for it. (ie put some nice sights on it, better controls and a decent set of grips)

Fact is I spent $200 on mine when I bought it, spent another $75 replacing the safety and $30 on grips, so I now have $305 in mine as it is.

Every smith Iv'e talked to (and I'd say I've takled to 4 here in Denver) agrees the TRUE CLONE FEG's are good ordinance quality steel and are well made, if a little thinly blued. The SW-Hybrid DA guns from FEG don't get that kind of praise and are apparently hard to work on.

My best guess? The Charles Daley will have a nicer fit and finish and will sell well, provided it's still a bargain compared to other new 9mm's on the market.

Heck I might even get one (if you can't still find a NIB true clone FEG)

Oh and since a pair of pre-shrunk fitted 501's are running about $50 a pair these days.. 4 piars ought to do fine, oh wait make it 5 for the background check and sales tax :neener:

Spackler
April 28, 2003, 10:54 PM
Check out the rollmark in this photo and tell me you still want one:

http://www.handgunsmag.com/HGshot_7_527.jpg

George Hill
April 28, 2003, 11:10 PM
Now that just ruined it.


Why the hell does Charles Daly have to paint everything like it's a danged billboard?
I HATE THAT.
Well, if the gun is still good, I'd still get one, but only after I had the coin to send it to some place for refinishing work... Which is the reason I was liking the idea of a CD HP... because I wouldn't have to do that.

FETCH.

*sigh*

Handy
April 28, 2003, 11:31 PM
Jeez. George, I'd wait until the shop gets one in, rather than ordering sight unseen.

That reminds me more of the Armscorp 1911s Daly sells than an Browning product.


So, anybody see those FM HPs for $269?;)

PCRCCW
April 29, 2003, 12:35 AM
The REAL FEG clone HP is a nice gun. You guys can say what ever you want...Ive only shot 2 and they were both the 9HP's with nice deep blueing too. One was a little tuned and was nicer than the FN's we shot at the same shoot.

Id take a Daly...good sights and good sights :D
Scotch brite the name off and reblue it..youd be set.


Shoot well

ojibweindian
April 29, 2003, 11:58 AM
I don't see me trading my CZ75 for one of these.

George Hill
April 29, 2003, 01:32 PM
Reblue?
Nay... if you have to refinish... do it right.
NP3 the frame and Roguard the slide.

Handy
April 29, 2003, 01:37 PM
George,

At the risk of offending (again), why do you care about machine marks when you plan on covering the slide in paint (albeit, very nice teflon paint)?

I would have pegged you for high-gloss blue HP kindofguy.

Dr.Rob
April 30, 2003, 06:34 AM
See.. that's the damn problem with 1911 owners.

Rob: See this? its a bargain only $200 bucks! I Can get into IDPA for cheap!

George: yeah well that MIGHT shoot well but any pistolero worth his brass would put a $500 purple teflon coating that will stand up to saltwater sand and kryptonite!

Rob: and how will this affect accuracy?

George: Then get some virgin coconoboluat wood grown only in sweden at odd times of the year.. or better yet mammoth ivory.

Rob: maybe a couple extra magazines

George: Oh and nickeled hex-headed grip screws!

Rob: and this will affect accuracy how?

George: then file off the sights and replace them with millet rangfinding odometric glow in zero g sights.. $200 plus machining

Rob: ok so for $400 I can get a gun and sights

George: plus machining... at least get it hard chromed!

Rob: I kinda like it glossy-blue black

George: NO! Not that my brother in law does np6 finishes.. have you considered electric titanium oxide wash? Looks cooooooool adds .00025 seconds in your split times when you add wd-40 in a kydex holster

Rob: and the way it 'breaks in' it has character, I kinda like the rub marks

George: GRIP SCREWS!

Rob: Think I'll buy more ammo

George: BEAVERTAIL! MAGAZINE WELL! ONE PIECE GUIDE ROD!

Rob: dude it works JUST FINE!

George: You will just never understand me!

Rob: uhhhhh

George: next thing you know you'll buy a .. a.. don't make me say it

Rob: what?

George: a GLOCK are you happy now? Look youv'e ruined Christmas! I hope you are happy.

(with apologies to George)

WHY take a $200 pistol and make it into a $600 pistol if it works out of the box?? It's not a bargain anymore if you do that.

George Hill
April 30, 2003, 05:02 PM
Uh, Rob? When did we get married? :scrutiny:



The NP3 finish comment was a joke. Geeze guys... cut me some slack. Of course it would have been more obvious had I suggested such a refinishing on a Hi Point, instead of a Hi Power.

My point was that I don't want to do anything to the gun. If I wanted a tinker toy, I'd get an FEG. I am told (I've never owned) FEG HPs are reliable, just not what anyone would call "Match Grade" in terms of accuracy. Then again, it's only a 200 dollar pistol. If I wanted to build up my own custom HP, an FEG might not be a bad way to go. But Id rather just pick up a CD, if they are a worthy clone, and call it Good Enough right out of the box. The sights are a huge plus, as those are what I would pick given the choice.

I would have pegged you for high-gloss blue HP kindofguy.

Actually, I'm all about practicality in my guns. A gun that is too pretty might not ever be fired. I have 2 such handguns that I never mention... let alone shoot. I fired them each one mag full, cleaned them up, lubed them well with CLP, and they lay resting in a safe deposit box. They are a matched pair of autos, engraved with my sons names. They will never be sold. They will never be taken out to the desert. Never be worn in holsters. Anyways... All my other autos are all about being used. You should see my Beretta. NRA would only call it GOOD Condition, but man, is it a shooter!
HEX GRIP SCREWS ROCK!!

Dr.Rob
April 30, 2003, 11:35 PM
lol should I have used "steve?"

It was meant to be funny George.

bubbygator
April 30, 2003, 11:48 PM
It might be interesting to read reviews here (http://www.handgunreview.com/reviews/charlesdaly.asp) about Daly's efforts concerning the 1911 model - which people do have in-hand.

George Hill
May 1, 2003, 12:56 AM
Oh it was... Rob...
Now shut up and put on the dress... it's your turn tonight.

;)

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