.30-06 M2 Ball on Deer?


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sithanas
March 28, 2006, 01:30 PM
I'm planning on purchasing a CMP Garand as well as a case of surplus M2 Ball ammunition. Is this ammo deer-usable, or should I invest in a couple boxes of commercial ammo for hunting?

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dakotasin
March 28, 2006, 01:34 PM
fmj on deer is unethical at best, and probably illegal. buy some soft points for deer-whacking.

'Card
March 28, 2006, 01:34 PM
It's not the latest, greatest, hottest, hardest, or fastest, but it'll do just fine for deer.

ArmedBear
March 28, 2006, 01:38 PM
I know that my state requires "expanding bullets" for any kind of single-projectile hunting.

That means soft points, hollow points, NBT's, Accu-tips, LEVERlution, lead bullets, pretty much anything EXCEPT ball ammo, which is FMJ.

Check your state's web site for laws (Natural Resources Dept., Fish and Game, Game and Fish, or whatever they call it in MI). I don't believe any US state's hunting laws allow the use of FMJ ammo, but even if the law is silent on bullet type, it's not considered an ethical way to take game. FMJ ammo tends to wound, not drop, an animal, including a human animal.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr

Note also that the southern half of Michigan's lower peninsula doesn't allow rifles for deer hunting at all, apparently.

Didn't they cover this stuff in Hunter Safety?

'Card
March 28, 2006, 01:47 PM
None of the three states that I hunt in on a regular basis seem to have any prohibitions at all against FMJ ammo from a centerfire rifle (just checked) and to be honest it had never occurred to me that some states would bother regulating that sort of thing - but I guess it's always a good idea to say "...check your local laws first!" :)

mustanger98
March 28, 2006, 01:54 PM
I see you're in Michigan, so check your Michigan hunting regs for legality. But for ethical issues, for the M1, I recommend handloading some Hornady 150gr spitzer type SP's which come as flat base or boat tail. My recommendation from my own shooting with my own M1 is to load that bullet over 42-50grs of IMR 4895 so it'll run anywhere from 2400fps on the low end up to 2900 or so max. But check the Hornady 5th Edition manual before you do that and realize that they have a section for .30-06 in general and a section for the M1 in particular and also realize that the numbers DO cross up between those two sections. (The only real reason I see the manual having a separate section for the M1 is match loads.) But as far as using FMJ on a deer, I wouldn't unless it was an all out case of having to.

One mention was of using a cast lead bullet, which ain't supposed to work in a Garand, but it'd work in a '03 or 1917. Thing about that is there seems to be some grey area in the Georgia regs as to what an expanding bullet is. It seems that except during muzzleloader season lead bullets appear to be frowned on at best. I'll have to do some checking around on that.

Stickjockey
March 28, 2006, 01:57 PM
Unethical in my opinion, and illegal in Oregon:

General Provisions

Centerfire Firearm

Fully automatic firearms prohibited.


Semiautomatic rifles with a magazine capacity greater than five cartridges prohibited (except for western gray squirrel).


Military or full-metal jacket bullets in original or altered form prohibited.


Hunters may use any muzzleloader with any ignition type, except matchlock, any legal sight, any propellant, or any bullet type during centerfire firearm seasons, provided the weapon meets caliber restriction for the species.

From the 2006 Oregon Big Game regulations

ID_shooting
March 28, 2006, 01:59 PM
Sure, they will work, if you dont mind making .30 holes in one side and right out the other and then chasing your deer for three counties, LOL

MFJ is great for range work but terrible for hunting. A bullet doesnt have to be the latest, greatest, whiz-bang design, but a good hunting bullet is hard to beat for well, hunting.

ArmedBear
March 28, 2006, 01:59 PM
From what I can see on the MI web site, MI does not prohibit FMJ ammo for hunting deer. That doesn't mean you shouldn't spend the $15 on a box of hunting ammo, but it looks like it's not against MI law. "Anything larger than a .22 rimfire" is legal. Doesn't mean that it's ethical for hunting, effective for bringing down a deer, or a good idea.

HOWEVER and this is a big however because it could be a serious offense...

The Garand itself is illegal for hunting if unmodified.

Michigan has a 5+1 round limit for semiautos. I'm not sure how to block a Garand magazine, but I'm sure people do it in states that limit magazine size for hunting.

Also, in the area around East Lansing, ALL RIFLES are illegal for deer (from how I read the map anyway) though it's not too long of a drive to where they are legal.

Again, check the laws!

Ohen Cepel
March 28, 2006, 02:07 PM
It's a bad idea even if it is legal. A box of good 30-06 at Wal-Mart usually isn't over $20.

Red Tornado
March 28, 2006, 03:07 PM
You can get 2 round or 5 round en bloc clips for your Garand. That should make it legal for hunting, just make sure you don't bring along a bunch of 8 rounders.
RT

mp510
March 28, 2006, 03:14 PM
http://www.champchoice.com/detail.php?item=M1G2

clange
March 28, 2006, 03:48 PM
Sure, they will work, if you dont mind making .30 holes in one side and right out the other and then chasing your deer for three counties, LOL

Exactly. It'll work, just not quickly.

When I was young, like 14 or 15, and didnt know any better I used an SKS with FMJ ammo. The first deer I shot through the heart luckily, it only went 30 ft. My dad saw the holes and said to use JHP. Little did we know, JHP 7.62x39 acts exactly like FMJ. The next deer field dressed at 200 lbs even, and with a lung shot it took us 4 hours to find it and finally bring it down. Tiny hole on both sides. .30-06 has more behind it, but it doesnt matter, FMJ .30-06 would do EXACTLY the same thing as in my example.

Use good ammo. FMJ or similar is unethical.

mustanger98
March 28, 2006, 04:34 PM
Here's another issue- most .30-06 hunting ammo is not geared for the Garand's gas system. Most of it is loaded with powders that are slower burning than that loaded in military M2 ball or civilian equivelants. Use of such powders means port pressure will be too high and from what I understand, you're likely to get a bent op rod or, worst case, a bolt kicking out the heel of the receiver right in your face. My understanding is it has happened. That's why I recommended handloading the .30-06 with IMR 4895 under a 150gr SP. According to the Hornady 5th Edition manual I cited earlier as well as my own experience, IMR 4064 is also a good choice.

Now, this matter of the Garand itself being legal or illegal for deer hunting... it seems to be grey area again. The magazine capacity can be reduced by the use of a 2rd or 5rd clip, but the rifle is still capable of loading 8rd clips. So it falls into whether the game warden sees it your way about those 2rd and 5rd clips as to whether you wind up in front of a judge. Then, the prosecutor is sure to argue you were using a rifle with capacity greater than legal. Question is, when your 2rd or 5rd clips are entered as evidence, will the judge and jury look at the clips or will they keep their focus on the rifle's issue capacity.

My opinion... if you want to hunt with a military rifle, get a bolt action and you can use factory hunting ammo safely in most cases I've ever been around or heard of. Of course, my opinion there is based on Georgia not looking at bolts and levers, most of which carry 5-10rds, in the same light as semi-autos. But really, if you want .30caliber, I still go back to .30-30... much lighter rifle that still gets the job done quite well within 200yds if the shooter does his part.

dakotasin
March 28, 2006, 06:15 PM
Question is, when your 2rd or 5rd clips are entered as evidence, will the judge and jury look at the clips or will they keep their focus on the rifle's issue capacity.


that would depend on how the law reads. here, it would be illegal if the capacity was there, regardless how many were on your clip. if you blocked the magazine, though, you'd be fine.

not sure why somebody would hunt w/ a garand, anyway... not the most wieldy of weapons, but i suppose it beats the tar out of watching tv...

mp510
March 28, 2006, 08:29 PM
Then arguablt any rifle with a detachable magazine would be verbotten.

Think about it, an M-1A accepts 20 (and even 10, 30 or 40) round magazines. With no magazine over 5 rounds in posession while hunting, would that mean your using an illegal implement?

How about a Remington 700 modified to use M-14 mags?

dakotasin
March 28, 2006, 08:40 PM
if it has a 5-round mag, or a mag blocked to accept no more than 5, then it is legal, detachable or not. if the mag is unblocked and capable of carrying more than 5, then it is not legal.

ar-15, ak, remington 700, 6-shot revolvers, all legal as long as the mag in the gun holds 5 or less for 5+1 capacity (and revolvers can carry 6).

sithanas
March 28, 2006, 09:24 PM
Okay, so we've ruled out FMJ. (This would be why I ask before I go and do something stupid.)

Anyone know any good commercial hunting loads that could be used in the Garand without damaging the gas system? I remember something about a variable gas release upgrade somewhere, and I don't really want to tune a handload if there's a commercial one available. Yet.

GeoW
March 28, 2006, 09:36 PM
Quote 'Card

It's not the latest, greatest, hottest, hardest, or fastest, but it'll do just fine for deer.
__________________

Pure horse sh*t........:cuss:

Will not do fine for deer, rather inhumane.

GeoW

confed sailor
March 29, 2006, 12:21 AM
shoot FMJ in SC and DNR will hang you out to dry,

not to mention i wanna eat what i shot, not run it down halfway to GA:neener:

Sam
March 29, 2006, 12:24 AM
lots of mileage gotten on this thread.

How many of you have ever tried M2 Ball on deer?

Seems like most everywhere else in the world the the FMJ is preferred by the local pro's, here it's exactly opposite.

M2 Ball works wonderfully on deer.
M2 Ball on all but the smallest deer does exactly what the 5.56 does(and M80 ball from the 7.62) just takes a bit more meat to get it to swap ends and break.

Now the 173 grain stuff is a diffrent animal all together. It WILL drill through a deer, so forget your GI match ammo.

Of course you do have to obey the law in your jurisdiction, but do not discount something simply because it is illegal or you heard it from uncle Nick.
Lots of hot air pumped over little knowledge.


Sam

confed sailor
March 29, 2006, 12:39 AM
perhaps sam, i guess thats why sc banned FMJs, our deer arent big enough to get the tumble going.

mp510
March 29, 2006, 01:01 AM
I always was under the impression that the purpose of having the FMJ bullets on safari rounds was to get the penetration, not expansion on rather large critters.

What else is a fact, is that M2 ball probably did take down a whole heckuva lot aof 2 legged critters.

No, I have never shot any animals with m2 ball, and I don't intend on trying.

dakotasin
March 29, 2006, 01:24 AM
no, fmj on safari is usually used as a backup for penetration (like breaking pelvis), not expansion. first shot soft point thru chest, second shot fmj thru pelvis, or something like that. at any rate, fmj doesn't expand, so it isn't used for that.

cracked butt
March 29, 2006, 02:33 AM
Whole lot of good information on this thread with a bunch of BS mixed in.

FMJ or solids are used for dangerous big game because they can penetrate thick bones and skulls reliably, not to mention that they are fired from big bore rifles.

FMJs will not do anything reliably for deer except reliably zip right through causing minimal damage. Don't believe me, thry this experiment- get a bunch of pumpkins, watermelons, and canteloupe and shoot them with fmjs and softpints. I've shot some very large pumpkins up to over 100lbs with FMJs, and I've never seen evidence of bullets tumbing or expaning while passing through- they simply just pass straight through and do minimal damage.

A 5 or 2 round en bloc will be just fine and legal, I've talked to people from Pennsylvania who have a similar law and have used M1s for hunting. Its impossible to load more than 1 shot in a m1 without an enbloc, let alone more than 5 rounds.

For hunting ammo, just buy Remington corelokt (cheapest remington hunting ammo) ammo. Its not loaded hot, and if you only shoot a 1/2 box of the ammo through it a year to sight it in and hunt with, the odds are very very low that you'll do any damage to your oprod. Use M2 ball ammo for practice, use the corelokts for hunting, they are a very good hunting bullet.

Consider taking up reloading if you own an M1. Your rifle will never shoot to its potential with M2 ball ammo, handloads tuned to the rifle will always shoot better.

Sam
March 30, 2006, 12:57 AM
cracked butt,
Punkins ain't deer. How many deer have you shot with M2 ball ammo?

I'm not talking about FMJ "solids" on safari use either. Just plain old GI Ball for shooting "plains game". Quite popular.

confed sailor,
Most states that have banned it, have done so based on the same on rumor and propaganda running rampant in this thread, not testing.

Sam

MechAg94
March 30, 2006, 11:28 AM
:) Next time I read one of the threads where people are bragging that .30 caliber military rifles are so much more effective and always kill a man with one shot every time, I will have to link back to this thread. :)

dakotasin
March 30, 2006, 11:43 AM
so if it is banned, sam, are you advocating breaking the law in the name of testing on live deer?

Creeping Incrementalism
March 30, 2006, 01:09 PM
Next time I read one of the threads where people are bragging that .30 caliber military rifles are so much more effective and always kill a man with one shot every time.

Good point, but in combat, a wounded man will usually stop fighting and cry for a medic, which is all you really need. Plus FMJs will penetrate cover better, whereas deer hunters aren't supposed to shoot unless they have an unobstructed view.

ArmedBear
March 30, 2006, 01:22 PM
F&G or G&F or DNR or whatever doesn't have a problem with a gun that COULD hold more than 5+1 (or 7+1 or 2+1 or whatever the law is for the locale, gun and game in question).

As long as you don't have a larger magazine than the law allows in your possession while hunting, a detachable mag gun is legal. Generally, a magazine that is blocked in a way that requires disassembly of the gun or magazine to unblock it is legal, too.

Pump and autoloader shotguns with tubular magazines are almost always blocked for hunting with a plastic or wood rod (or a recoil reducer), and that's perfectly legal. But a shotgun that is NOT blocked but is loaded with 2+1 is still illegal.

It's just something that a hunter needs to be aware of. Smaller en bloc clips should be fine as long as you don't have any full-sized clips in your possession.

Gun Wielding Maniac
March 31, 2006, 10:58 AM
I've listened to the garbage that "FMJ's are unethical for deer" for years. If you score a hit in the heart, lungs, or liver the deer will go down, just as with any other shot. Honestly, do you think the differance between a .30 caliber hole straight through or a .30 caliber hole which expands to .50 inches about 1/2 of the way through the deer is going to mean everything? Either you plug them where it counts or you dont.
As for "overpenetration" what the hell does this mean? Rule #4 of firearms safety says "Be sure of your target and what is beyond it at all times". That means if you are concerned a bullet passing through your target will strike something valuable on the far side, you dont shoot! Newsflash, most .30 caliber ammunition softpoint or otherwise will go right through a deer.

Personally, I think this stuff about FMJ's being unethical was started by cartridge manufacturers and gun hacks so that people would spend more money on their overpriced ammunition.

I've shot deer with 5.56 FMJ, 5.45x39mm FMJ, 7.62x39mm FMJ, .303 FMJ, .308 FMJ... I've never had one go further then 75 meters from the place I shot it. I was always close enough to the deer that when I fired I was sure of exactly where the bullet would go. THAT is the differance. Some moron who blasts away at 300 meters with his .338 Win Mag is not more ethical because he is using $20 dollar a box ammo.

USSR
March 31, 2006, 02:43 PM
I've shot deer with 5.56 FMJ, 5.45x39mm FMJ, 7.62x39mm FMJ, .303 FMJ, .308 FMJ...

And I know someone who's shot a deer with a .22LR. Doesn't make it a deer cartridge. It's a question of ethics; using a cartridge/bullet combination that has the best possible chance of dispatching the game in the quickest and most humane manner. And that is not a full metal jacket bullet.

Don

MechAg94
March 31, 2006, 03:24 PM
I know my older brother got his first deer with a .30 carbine. It was fairly short range though.

I think what was pointed out above is important. There is no problem using FMJ, but you need to be aware of the slightly reduced effect and take a little more care to be sure you hit your target where you need to hit it. That is really true even with expanding bullets. For the average hunter, expanding bullets are probably preferred.

cracked butt
March 31, 2006, 05:48 PM
Personally, I think this stuff about FMJ's being unethical was started by cartridge manufacturers and gun hacks so that people would spend more money on their overpriced ammunition.

Yup, because there isn't a 1/2 century or more of lab and field testing to show that expanding bullets are far more efective. Next thing you know people will be telling me that broadheads aren't really needed for bowhunting either, they are just a scam to get you to buy expensive razor sharppoints when field tips will do if you hit the deer in the heart every time. :rolleyes:

colt.45
March 31, 2006, 05:56 PM
hell, if you can take em with 5.56 M-855 then im sure it will

Gun Wielding Maniac
March 31, 2006, 07:40 PM
Yup, because there isn't a 1/2 century or more of lab and field testing to show that expanding bullets are far more efective. Next thing you know people will be telling me that broadheads aren't really needed for bowhunting either, they are just a scam to get you to buy expensive razor sharppoints when field tips will do if you hit the deer in the heart every time.

Lab testing, eh? Mind linking me to the study? Preferably one that isnt done by a gun hack or an ammo company? Perhaps by the Army? What irks me is that people say that FMJ bullets are unethical for hunting, yet they wont hesitate to use far less effective and powerful weapons to do the same job... without anyone accusing them of doing anything unethical. Handgun hunting? I cant think of a handgun cartridge with as much killing power as a .30/06 FMJ. For that matter, people will plug a broadhead into the side of a deer at 60 yards fully accepting that it will take a couple of minutes to bleed out, and never bother themselves about ethics of humane killing. This is not to say that softpoints dont have a place... I just dont think people running around chortling and getting all red faced becuase someone dares to use anything other then the latest and greatest fodder put out by Remchester is appropriate.

Gewehr98
March 31, 2006, 08:19 PM
That plain outlaw FMJ for hunting? Do you think they're smoking crack, and pulled the rule from a dark place on their posteriors, just to f**k with you? Or perhaps there's a rational reason behind the laws. I dunno, why don't you tell me? :scrutiny:

telomerase
March 31, 2006, 09:15 PM
Here's another issue- most .30-06 hunting ammo is not geared for the Garand's gas system.

Any new Garand owners, focus on this. It's amazing how many people don't know that not every commercial 30-06 load has the right pressure curve.

It's nice to be humane to deer, but the first step is not to eat the operating rod.

mustanger98
March 31, 2006, 09:44 PM
Any new Garand owners, focus on this. It's amazing how many people don't know that not every commercial 30-06 load has the right pressure curve.

My understanding is that most commercial .30-06 loads, especially the newer whizbang stuff, is geared to bolt action sporters. You won't notice the difference in the pressure curve between the different crankbolts. But with a Garand, you WILL notice when you "eat the op rod". When that happens, you'll either have a medical emergency or you'll be sick from ruining (in part or in whole) your rifle. Either way, you're gonna be sorry.

MechAg94
March 31, 2006, 10:23 PM
I am sure you can find 30.06 loads that will work in your Garand.

I agree that it is a bit rediculous to get all bent out of shape over using FMJ.
And Yes I do think those states were smoking crack. :) Some states ban all but shotguns. Some states ban "assualt weapons". Just because a state has a law against it, does not make it bad.

Gun Wielding Maniac
March 31, 2006, 10:57 PM
That plain outlaw FMJ for hunting? Do you think they're smoking crack, and pulled the rule from a dark place on their posteriors, just to f**k with you? Or perhaps there's a rational reason behind the laws. I dunno, why don't you tell me?

Their rational reason comes from the same place as "Guns are bad, M'kaaay?". Laws aren't necessarily passed because they are reasonable or just. Sometimes, they pass just because they are popular. Many hunters and the public BELIEVE that FMJ ammunition is cruel and inhumane for hunting, not having ever tried it themselves. Just as many people say you can't hunt a deer with an AK :scrutiny:

In Indiana, the rational for banning centerfire rifles for big game hunting is that the bullets "go too far" and that therefore shotguns are much safer. Oddly, many states also limit the magazine capacity of the rifle or shotgun you use to hunt with. Would you seriously claim that an AK with a 30 round magazine was less "sporting" then a scoped .338 Win Mag? Yet the public believes it... as if having a 30 round magazine would drive a hunter to randomly spray the treeline in the hopes of hitting a deer. Sorry, my confidence in the public is shot.

Burt Blade
March 31, 2006, 11:13 PM
Midwayusa.com carries a replacement gas plug for a Garand. It allows the shooter to adjust the gas pressure delivered to the operating rod. This (in theory) allows you to tune the gas system for the higher pressures found in most commercial .30-06 ammunition. There is a second version of the plug that looks enough like a normal G.I. part to qualify for CMP matches.

A rather cool idea, eh? But I would not use the high-end "hot rod" .30 caliber ammo even with one of these devices installed. None of the other Garand parts were designed for such ammo, so an adjustable gas port plug is not a cure-all.

Sam
April 1, 2006, 01:44 AM
gewehr,
I do in fact believe that most states pulled it straight from deepest darkest Heinyland. Matter of fact the ink still stinks.:D

Sam

cracked butt
April 1, 2006, 05:53 PM
None of the other Garand parts were designed for such ammo, so an adjustable gas port plug is not a cure-all.

The M1 action is just as strong as any modern bolt action, and like modern bolt actions its only limited to the pressures it can take by its metallurgy. Take care of the oprod issue, and you can chamber an M1 in any caliber that you can make function in it.

CPLofMARINES
April 1, 2006, 06:57 PM
.30-06 Sprg. FMJ on deer...

NO!


Semper FI

Sleeping Dog
April 1, 2006, 07:00 PM
FMJ is illegal for deer in MI. Besides being a bad idea.

Remington Kore-Lokt shoots fine in my Garand. Just keep the bullet weight low, under 165gr.

And have a 5-round clip. 8 rounds is illegal in a semi-auto.

Regards.

CPLofMARINES
April 1, 2006, 07:00 PM
For what you will pay for that CMP rifle, you could buy a bolt action with a scope and plenty of ammo.

Semper Fi

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