[SkunkApe]

I picked up a Taurus .38 Special snubbie today, and started researching loads for concealed carry. What I found stunned me.

I have a Bulgarian Makarov in 9X18. Its my usual CCW gun. The popular opinion is that the 9X18 cartridge is a little more powerful that the .380 auto. But guess what? In terms of muzzle energy, the 9X18 is equal or superior to the .38 Special +P when fired form a 2" barrell!

Golden Loki's excellent site shows muzzle energies up to 272 fpe for the 9X18 fired form a Makarov.

http://goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/9x18/gel9x18.htm

Using the data from this article on the .38 Special +P when fired from a 2" snubbie, the best load in terms of muzzle energy is the Winchester +P 158-grain LSWCHP. I did the math, its 249 fpe.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/pocket_dynomite/

The formula, for those interested, is energy= bullet weight X velocity squared/450400. Energy is in fpe, bullet weight is in grains, velocity is in fps.

I'm amazed. Am I the only one who didn't know the 9X18 is more powerful than the .38 Special +P?

[Mark IV Series 80]

But guess what? In terms of muzzle energy, the 9X18 is equal or superior to the .38 Special +P when fired form a 2" barrell!I would rather have the 158 grain bullet at +P velocity than a 95 grain bullet going 959-1135 fps.

BTW, I have heard it said that the .380 ACP is more powerful than the .38 Special out of a 2 inch barrel.

[jc2]

Foot pounds of energy (FPE) is a very small part of what makes a bullet effective--particularly handgun bullets. Depending on a number of other variables, .38 Special at 278 FPE may be (is probably?) more effective than a .44 Magnum at 741 FPE. Anybody who chooses a carry pound based strictly (or even primarily) on FPE is missing larges pieces of the big picture!

[Apple a Day]

5 rounds of .38 Special or 9 rounds (8+1) of Makarov.

.38 out of a 2" barrel or 9 Mak out of a 4" barrel (okay, 91mm to be exact... 93mm out of a Norinco. Out of a PA-63 it's 100mm.)

Personaly, I'd rather have a 12 gage. :p

[Greybeard]

Interesting links.

FWIW, after considerable testing in 340PD, I settled some time back on the 125 grain +P Gold Dots keyed up in the first 3 holes (altho I had none of the Winchester 130s available at the time).

My Dad, now pushing 80, was complaining a few months back that his S&W 4" Model 66 was just a little too bulky, so I got him lined out with an extra Mak. One thing I like about the Maks is that 9X18 Silver Bear JHPs can be easily found around here for around $6 a box.

I've not had a malfunction with either of my Maks with any type of ammo and feel that Dad is just as well armed - if not better - with 8 lighter rounds in the Mak as I am with 5 heavier ones in the snub (with the last 2 being 125g Federal Classic 357s).

[matsaleh]

Greybeard: One thing I like about the Maks is that 9X18 Silver Bear JHPs can be easily found around here for around $6 a box.

I am in the Austin area. Any suggestions for Silver Bear in my area? Denton is just a tad far to drive. I know this is a long shot and TX is big, but gun folks seem to know each other...

Thanks.

[tbeb]

I'll take a snub .38 that fires a 158 gr. lead hollowpoint at 800 fps. I'll take a .380 that fires a Federal or Corbon 90 gr. JHP at 950-1000 fps. I do not know how effective the 9 X 18 is as a manstopper. I am not knocking the Makarov 9 X 18 at all. It is a very reliable weapon. For self defense purposes I do not consider it better than .38 special+P or .380 ACP.

[SkunkApe]

"I'll take a .380 that fires a Federal or Corbon 90 gr. JHP at 950-1000 fps." -Tbeb

Corbon's 9X18 load fires a 95 grain hollowpoint at 1135 fps. Too bad its discontinued.

I'm questioning the effectiveness of the 9X18 compared to the .38 Special +P. Unquestionably the 9X18 is superior to the .380 auto. It fires bigger projectiles at a higher velocity.

[tbeb]

SkunkApe,

You feel the 9 X 18 is superior to the .380 ACP for self defense. That's cool. I don't agree.

Fact, not theory, is the .380 ACP works on the streets just as well as a +P loaded snub thirty-eight. Does this mean the 9 X 18 is superior to the .38? I say no.

I say they're all equal so take your pick.

[SkunkApe]

tbeb,

To support my position, I offer physics as evidence. To support your position, you offer...

[Greybeard]

Mat - Yea, a small world sometimes. In fact, I'll be making a run to Austin and back tomorrow. Gonna be getting daughter back to northwest corner of UT sometime in the p.m. If ya happen to be in the area, I might can throw in a box or two and let ya try 'em. I buy 'em off the shelf at Cheaper Than Dirt showroom on north edge of Fort Worth. I've not checked, but they likely have 'em in catalog. PM me as ya see fit. I've got good cell coverage in Austin.

[Greybeard]

SkunkApe & tbeb - Before y'all carry on much further with the little spittin' contest, possibly a pertinent link just posted on another thread. http://greent.com/40Page/ammo/45/45-advoc.htm Despite the title, it's more than about just 45s ...

Well, The Wife tells me I'm cookin' tonight, so outta here for a while ... Y'all have at it ... :D

P.S. Note the caliber I went to for Dad. And there was also a .380 in the safe. ;)

[tech]

I carry either a EG Mak or a S&W M-36 on my person every day. I am more accurate with the mak, possibly because I can afford to shoot it alot. The 38 will do the job when I can... I gues thats what it boils down to. If you do your job either pistol aught to do its. www.dansammo.com has the best deal in my area for 9x18 $110 shipped for HP. SOG has some 38 special for 99.00 a thousand + the shipping. I bought some and it works good for me.


Just bring one of those pistols with you all the time.

Mike

[SkunkApe]

Tech, what is "SOG"?

Sportsman's Guide has the Barnaul hollowpoints for $92.97 per thousand. If you pay to join their "buyer's club", its $88.32.

I've ordered 1000 rounds twice from them. They shipped fast both times.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/

[cratz2]

SOG is www.SouthernOhioGun.com

Between the 9x18 or the 38 Special, I think it still comes down to which one you can shoot more effectively or which platform type you feel more comfortable with. I prefer pistols for carry due to their trimness and thinness. The few times I've carried the Mak (more as a gimick than anything... just showing it off) I was torn between the hard plastic Russian grips that weren't too comfortable to shoot but wouldn't catch on clothing and the Pearce grips that are much more comfortable and a bit more hand-filling, but I've never been a big fan of rubber grips for CCW. I went with the Russian Grips.

The Barnaul HPs seem to open up pretty consistantly and as long as the bad guy isn't wearing a leather jacket, two flannel shirts and a wife beater (which he surely will be ;) ) I'd have to think that the Mak is going to get in at least 6" or 8". In a longer barrel revolver such as you might carry for duty work, I'd probably rather have the 38 Special +P. Also there is a much wider range of ammunition choices with the 38 that you can match to your particular thought-up needs.

[Dave Markowitz]

Has anyone (here or elsewhere) ever done any expansion tests of the Russian-made 9mm Mak JHPs? I wonder if they are any good.

I'm big fan of the Mak myself. My Bulgarian Mak is the most reliable semiauto pistol I've owned (compared with 2 BHPs, a CZ-85, and a Buckmark).

That being said, I bought a used S&W M-640 in .38 with a 3" barrel for carry last month. :) I will carry it loaded with 158 LSWC-HP +Ps.

[3 gun]

No, you're not the only one who has noticed that the 9x18 can have better numbers than the 38s. Numbers don't always equal performance. Given that both or all three, if you count the 380, are on the bottom of the power scale, I'd base my choice on what I could shoot and carry the easiest. A Mak for me please.

[Sarge]

They're both just as good as you shoot them, same as any other handgun rounds.

[Greybeard]

Quote/uestion: "Has anyone (here or elsewhere) ever done any expansion tests of the Russian-made 9mm Mak JHPs? I wonder if they are any good."

Nothing very scientific here. But, I sorta go with same theory as JHPs in .45ACP: if they happen not to expand for whatever reason, then more pentration - which could possibly be more desirable anyway ...

Being a little slower and lighter than 9X19s, I think even FMJs from a Mak would be a bit less likely to just drill a through and through 9mm hole ...

[Dr.Rob]

"On paper" is just that, on paper. I haven't seen any 380 or 9x18 load that will out penetrate a 38/158 lswhp, especially in HP trim. I've always hear the 380/38 to be "about the same" ballisticly, but this is a BIG difference.

[SkunkApe]

Dr. Rob,

You hit the nail on the head. The problem with the 9X18 is the lack of a hollowpoint that penetrates 12" or more. There is none. In fact, the popular Barnaul 95-grain HP penetrates only 7.5" in gelatin.

In 9X18, you can get hollowpoints with less than 12" of penetration, or ball with more than 20" of penetration. Nothing in between. What the 9x18 needs is a cartridge with a good hollowpoint design that achieves 12-15". Too bad it doesn't exist.

[Greybeard]

I just rounded up a couple of boxes of the Silver Bear 9 X18 JHPs to take to Austin shortly. I noticed they are 120 grain bullets. I've not seen specific lab tests or looked into actual fps? Anyone ???

FWIW, also noticed on a box of Wolfe FMJs, they are 109 grain - and pretty pointy. Gotta roll for now.

[cratz2]

Has anyone (here or elsewhere) ever done any expansion tests of the Russian-made 9mm Mak JHPs? I wonder if they are any good.

Mr. Stephen A. Camp has done some not-quite-exactly-scientific expansion tests in water and/or mud and they seem to expand pretty reliably.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5589

[Lone_Gunman]

OK, now wait a minute here...

I need something explained to me.

jc2 says:

"Depending on a number of other variables, .38 Special at 278 FPE may be (is probably?) more effective than a .44 Magnum at 741 FPE."


Now, that would seem hard to believe, unless the variable you are talking about is shot placement.

[Gordon]

My standard .38spl load is a 173 grain Kieth type SWC kinda hard (wheel weights chilled) , it does 850fps in 2" barrels, 900 in 3" barrels 950 in 4" barrels and almost 1050 in 6" barrels. My friend tested it with Oehler strain guage chrono before he helped me load another 1000. It uses power pistol now , I used to use red dot for similar results for 20 years. It has around 20000psi so it isn't a blue burner round. It cuts a clean 3/8" hole thru anything made of flesh and bone less than 24" thick. In a custom Colt Dick Spec. it shoots in 3" at 25 yds on my good days. In an PPC bull barrel 6" it goes less than 2". Any one can load like this or buy a Corbon equivalent. It 'pangs ' pepper popper where maks 'ping' them.

[jc2]

jc2 says:
"Depending on a number of other variables, .38 Special at 278 FPE may be (is probably?) more effective than a .44 Magnum at 741 FPE."

Now, that would seem hard to believe, unless the variable you are talking about is shot placement.
While shot placement is certainly one variable, there are others at work. For example, .38 Special LSWCHP that expands to .55 or .60 calibre and penetrates to 12 to 14 inches will probably be more effective than a .44 Magnum that punches a .429 slug straight through the body. If I had to chose between a four inch .44 Magnum with typical JSP or hunting ammunition versus a four inch .38 Special with 158-grain +P LSWCHPs, I would glady, without a doubt, pick the .38 Special (and that doesn't even address controllability/speed issues).

Or, in the case of the .380/9mm Mak versus .38 snub, a .38 Special 148-grain wadcutter that cuts/tears a true .36 calibre hole all the through will be more effective than a FMJ (or HP that doesn't expand) that pokes a small (sub-.36 calibre) hole straight through (or a HP that stops well short of any major blood vessels of organs). The .38 Special will give you a far better wound channel, and that's really what it's all about with these weapons/velocities (barring a CNS hit). Throw into the mixture a load like Gordon talks about, and it really becomes a no-brainer.

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. I'll offer an opinion and it's only mine and not intended to slam or knock any caliber or gun.

I, too, have some concerns over either lots of penetration with ball in 9x18mm Makarov or maybe too little for anything but a frontal shot with either the Corbon, Hornady, Barnaul JHPs, or the 115 and 120 gr JHPs sold under the White and Silver Bear names.
I do believe that any of these JHPs will expand in tissue. Personally, I think Hornady missed an opportunity here in that unlike the other handgun calibers I've used their XTPs in, their 9mm Mak XTP expands more aggressively. Perhaps, had it gone to a bit less diameter an done the usual XTP thing at these velocities (about a caliber-and-a-half expansion), penetration would've been a bit deeper.

For face-to-face shootings, I suspect that the Makarov will do the trick in making felons fall down because they have to rather than just want to, assuming vitals are hit.

With the .38 +P 158 gr LSWCHP, you do get more penetration and I do feel better in the event that an arm gets in the bullet's way while enroute to the torso. Ditto, side shots.

I have seen no pictures of recovered bullets from humans in which the Makarov JHPs have been used, but have seen a couple in which the Remington load and Winchester's equivalent were used on people and they both expanded pretty nicely and both were recovered under the skin on the back. One had penetrated a forearm before passing through the lower portion of the heart.

It's my understanding that these .38 loads won't expand if fired through the now commonly-used 4-layers of denim before smacking the 10% ballistic gelation, but not every shooting incident will involve this.

There seems to be no perfect caliber and I've still not been able to find the perfect pistol after looking for 30+ years.

I own and shoot both the J-frame .38 S&Ws as well as a couple of Makarovs. I distinctly prefer shooting the Maks, but continue to practice with and carry the thirty-eight for reasons stated above.

Perhaps the gun that the individual can hit best with is the way to go for that individual. If a bullet from either can get to the heart or aorta, I suspect the results will be the same.

What I'd like to see for the Makarov round would be a bit less aggressive expansion in a JHP weighing somewhere around 110 to 120 grains if it can be made to feed in the Maks as reliably as the more common 95 gr rounds. I've shot quite a bit of the Brown Bear or LVE 115 gr JHP and it works fine in SOME magazines, but is too long in others. It also worked fine in a Bulgarian Mak, but not an E. German until I did a minor beveling job at the lower edge of the feed ramp. Anyway, I'd want a JHP in this weight range at around 1,000 ft/sec that expanded to about 0.50". That's a little less than caliber-and-a-half expansion and perhaps with the bit of extra weight, we'd get 12" penetration or so. If something like that, be it via JHP or something like PowRball, I might very well go to a Makarov for "little gun" carry.

I mainly hope that no one reading (or writing!) this ever has to use a pistol of any caliber against anyone.

Best.

[matsaleh]

Does anyone on here know what it takes for an existing manufacturer to bring a new bullet to market? I'm sure there is a minimum market size below which the major manufacturers would not be interested, but I have no idea what that is.

I do know that Maks have been growing in popularity in the U.S., and more keep coming into the country.

It would be cool if we could get some ammo with the heavier bullet like Silver Bear that would also increase the pressure (a bit - I don't know what the Mak can take, but it's a tank).

[gumshoe4]

Mr. Camp-you are truly a man who understands the essentials and articulates them so anyone can grasp them. I know if your name is attached to an entry, there will be a well-reasoned discourse and an objective approach. This is an issue which is not necessarily based upon logical thought (".45 hardball knocks 'em down 19 times out of 20", etc.), which means that your approach is of great value to those of us trying to pull the fundamentals out of the static.

Your last statement, however, is the most important.

Thanks again for your usual excellence.

Bob

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello, again.

Matsaleh: I can only guess that there would have to be a large monetary potential for most any ammo maker to come out with a new round in any caliber if they are going to do the T&E required to "get it right" and meet the requests for the desired performance standards. IF such a bullet existed, I'd bet ProLoad or some of the other smaller, but fine quality makers might be our best bet for loaded ammo.

gumshoe4: Thank you very much for the high compliment. As time goes on, I tend to believe I understand less and less and that even less is "for certain." I'm not really allied to any particular "camp" (hahaha, sorry for the pun) in terms of "stopping power" and don't get into the topic publicly very much. Now that I've retired from police service, my orbits are extremely tame, but I do go legally armed 24/7. While I do believe that some handgun calibers are "better" than others amongst the commonly used defensive rounds, I think that all of them are weaker than any of us prefer. Personally, I think it's a good thing to load with as effective a round for a given caliber as is possible, but don't believe that any of them are instantly potent enough to make a determined aggressor stop for physiological reasons rather than psychological ones unless he's hit very well.

I prefer revolvers and pistols to other firearms for fun and certainly use them for "serious" purposes more than long guns, but my primary "house gun" remains a 12 ga. pump with 000 buck. Problem is I cannot put that in my pocket.

Mainly, I like to have fun shooting targets.

Best and thank you again.

[4thHorseman]

Lone_Gunman, I too always had problems with that. I think Marshall and Sanow took the whole gun club for a ride. People still use their info for the only source of information.
Handguns do not have much energy transfer.
If anyone ever shot a hog with a 38 and compared it to a 44 mag the difference is clear. People will say,"the human body is not like a hog's body." That may be so, but the human body is not all ballist gelatin either. The body consists of a lot of bones. 44 mags have no problems putting a fine hole in things, and bones just shatter with the passing of the bullet. 38's often deflect off of bones. Bones create secondary projectiles.
I'm not sure what size a 44 mag expands to while passing through the body... but does it really matter? Cannon balls don't expand either.
The 44 mag like the 45 does not need to expand to be effective.
The 38 special is a great defensive round, dispite what the gun rags have to say. It worked fine in the hollow point 158 gr for many, many years. I do not think the round point is effective though.
The 44 mag is a handful. I carried a 44 mag for a short time. It was like carrying a boat anchor around all day.
If I was like Dirty Harry, and used the hand gun every other day, I too would carry the 44 mag.
It will be a wonderful blessing if I never have to pull the weapon.
Years ago I asked a question on the TFL. It went something like this, " If you had to have one handgun that you own now in a riot, which gun would you choose?" Many, many people thought the way I did, many chose the 44 mag.

[Jim March]

Lone_Gunman:

If a 38Spl hollowpoint with 278ft/lbs of energy expands well and dumps ALL that energy into it's target, it may indeed be more effective than a 44Mag solid that doesn't expand and blows most of it's energy on the air or whatever else is behind the target - even if they both hit in the same place.

Put simply, you don't get "hydrostatic shock effects" until somewhere up past 2,000fps. With the 44Mag, even most JHPs either fail to expand in humans or do so very late in their travel straight through, because they're designed to "punch deep" for use on critters like deer and black bear.

That said, if you have a 44Mag gun, there ARE rounds designed for use against human targets and if you're smart enough to use THOSE, the 44Mag will proceed to stomp hot 38+P completely into the ground. I'm a big fan of frangibles in the 44Mag, I think they come into a whole new level of effectiveness when driven hot enough :evil:. (Somebody will be along shortly to talk about how frangibles don't punch deep enough - my point is, the better ones like Glaser Silvers and Magsafe Defenders DO punch deep in 44Maggie - about 14" worth of utter "hamburgerization" :eek:.)

That's why the Evans&Marshall stats on the 357 are consistently higher than the stats on the 44Mag - most people just don't understand how ammo works, they assume "hot is good" and energy is all that matters, and hence they grab 44Mag hunting ammo and wonder why it doesn't work well on people. This is also a classic example of why the E&M stats need to be taken with a grain of salt - they show the results for "most people" and especially in calibers that aren't used by cops (like 44Mag, and the Mak) the ammo effectiveness is all over the map based on whatever was cheapest or most available at the local Wally World sporting goods department :rolleyes:.

----------------

Which brings us back to the Mak - first issue is penetration depth. With a 158+P lead hollowpoint, I'll get moderate expansion and good depth, exactly what you CAN'T get in the Mak yet - although I'd like to see some tests with a Gold Dot projectile driven as fast as possible (Proload?), if anything will do it, that will.

The other issue I have with the Mak is the trigger - I *hate* the very idea of a trigger that switches from DA first stroke to SA for all subsequent, I think it's a disaster. Either convert it to cocked'n'locked with an SA first shot, or smooth out the DA stroke and convert to DAO.

[SkunkApe]

Good information and analyses guys, especially Stephen A. Camp and Jim March.

The more I read here and think about it, the more I wish someone would make a 9X18 hollowoint load that can penetrate 12-15". Certainly, the bullet weights and velocities of that caliber would seem to allow it.

[4thHorseman]

Jim, thanks for the "suttle" correction. It is Evans and Marshall. I don't know where I came up with the name Sanow at for that info.:) Maybe because Sanow quotes E&M so much...don't know.

[Jim March]

You know, talking about Gold Dots got me thinking about who might be loading it hotter than Speer/CCI in 9x18. Proload's site doesn't list 9x18 but Georgia Arms does, in their "premium line" which is all Gold Dot based:

http://www.georgia-arms.com/power.htm

95 grains, rated at 1,000fps (unknown barrel length) and hey, pretty cheap!

If *anything* is gonna meet spec (expand and pull 12+ inches), that'd be my first guess.

[SkunkApe]

Thanks, Jim March.

[David4516]

I realize this is pretty old, but I have a few things to add :rolleyes:

"Or, in the case of the .380/9mm Mak versus .38 snub, a .38 Special 148-grain wadcutter that cuts/tears a true .36 calibre hole all the through will be more effective than a FMJ (or HP that doesn't expand) that pokes a small (sub-.36 calibre) hole straight through (or a HP that stops well short of any major blood vessels of organs). "

I hate to break it to ya, but in terms of diameter, the 9mm Mak is bigger than .38 special. The 9mm Mak is .365 caliber, compared to .357, it's not a big differance but the Mak will leave a slightly larger hole assuming that neither round expands.

As far as Mak ammo goes, I feel that the Hornady 95 gr XTP is the best bullet out there. I hand-load them to about 1050 FPS. I've done some informal expansion tests, and this combo sure can take out 2 liter pop bottles (filled with water of course). I took several bottles and lined them up, and found that the my handloads will reliably expand and punch thur 2 bottles. And those bottles sure jumped when they were hit. I wish it would take out 3, but you can't expect too much from a round this size.

One a side note, since we are talking about russian rounds, a friend tried the same test with his 7.62X25 Tokarev. I'm not sure how many bottles it will go thur, because it took out all 6 that we had lined up :what:

Of course that is a smaller, faster bullet (1400 FPS), and one that doesn't expand...


Overall, I'd consider the 9mm Mak round about eqaul to a .38 fired from a 2 inch barrel. I think the Makarov (the pistol itself) has the advantage over the .38 snub because you get more rounds in a smaller gun with faster reloads...

[SnWnMe]

My EG Mak is uber reliable. I have yet to see this gun jam! My 442 is probably just as reliable (too new to tell). I would feel adequately going about armed with either because I practice. But I will say this: If I were to carry JIC I would bring the Smith because it is lighter. However, if I were given a choice between the two guns (only) and going to a gunfight, then I would obviously pick the Mak (more ammo, easier to shoot and hit with)

As for terminal performance in a defensive situation, maybe the 38 has an edge. It does go deeper. So even if my HP FTE then at least I get a deep wound. At any rate, I don't dwell on such things, my lifestyle does not put me at much risk against 2 legged predators (I do get on So Cal's freeways alot tho:(). All things being equal, it's the shooter not the gun.

[Oracle]

For example, .38 Special LSWCHP that expands to .55 or .60 calibre and penetrates to 12 to 14 inches

I've never seen a .38 Special load, +P or otherwise, that will reliably expand to this diameter and penetrate to the depth listed in calibrated ballistic gelatin, especially out of a 2-inch snubbie barrel (the, by far, most popular kind of .38 Special revolver). I truly do not think that load exists.

Check these tests out: http://www.ammolab.com/38spcl_-1.htm

[coldshot03/04]

Im a Mak owner myself. I really dont believe that the 9x18 or the 380acp has anything on the 38spl. Except number of rounds. I like those big 158 grainers.