Pulled over w/ CCW in Minnesota


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usmarine0352_2005
March 31, 2006, 03:23 AM
I got pulled over by a cop tonite, for going thru a stoplight. It was pouring rain out, and I didn't want to get rear-ended if I slammed my brakes on. I didn't actually think he was going to give me a ticket, with the mitigating circumstances and all. I also turned on my interior lights before he walked up.

After he asked for my license, he asked for my Proof of Insurance. I told him, "Officer, before I get my Proof of Insurance for you, I want you to know I have a concealed carry permit, and I have a pistol in a soft case in my glove compartment box. So when I open my glove compartment to get my Proof of Insurance it will be in there."

He said, ok, thanks for telling me, and he got out his Streamlight to shine on my glovebox. I opened up the glovebox, got my Proof of Insurance and gave it to him. He looked at it, gave it back and went back to his car.

He then came back, gave me my ticket, and then said, "Once again, I appreciate you telling me about your CCW." And then went on his way.

Pretty good all the way around.....accept for the damned ticket.

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jeepmor
March 31, 2006, 03:42 AM
Aren't you required to state your CCW when pulled over? You should be able to contest the ticket as running the redlight out of defensive necessity.

Something like "I was being tailgated, the road was wet, and I did not want to slide out into the middle of the intersection or be rear ended."

Or, reschedule your court date to insure the LEO will not be present to contest it. Say your out of town on business or the like, reschedule, LEOs rarely show for traffic citations anyway, especially to citations such as yours where you were honest and polite and quite uneventful. Had you been a cantankerous cuss, he'd probably make a point to show up.

Or, I've heard this one, not used it. Pay the fine and add about 2 dollars to the tab. (claiming a transposition or clerical error on your part) Govt agencies cannot "keep" the change and then must issue you a check for the overage that you mistakenly provided. Then, it being only a few bucks, they will usually just drop the ticket and never cash the check because it's not worth all the extra paperwork and effort on a single ticket. Again, I've heard this works, but have not used it. Actually, I've never used any of them, but I did get ticket dropped because the officer did not show up.

jeepmor

creampuff
March 31, 2006, 08:59 AM
Or, I've heard this one, not used it. Pay the fine and add about 2 dollars to the tab. (claiming a transposition or clerical error on your part) Govt agencies cannot "keep" the change and then must issue you a check for the overage that you mistakenly provided. Then, it being only a few bucks, they will usually just drop the ticket and never cash the check because it's not worth all the extra paperwork and effort on a single ticket. Again, I've heard this works, but have not used it. Actually, I've never used any of them, but I did get ticket dropped because the officer did not show up.

Sorry, someone emailed me this tip before, but it is an urban legend. You'll just be out a couple of extra of dollars.

Info, on this urban legend can be found here.
http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/ticket.asp

The Drew
March 31, 2006, 09:56 AM
Don't know about Minn, but in PA you DO NOT have to notify the officer that you are carrying, I personally would notify as a courtesy, but I am not required to do so by law.

HankB
March 31, 2006, 09:58 AM
A friend of mine got a ticket once in Minneapolis . . . he mailed in the fine using a check made out to "Hennepin County Den of Thieves"

They cashed it!

He kept the framed, cancelled check in his office.

Today, you'd probably be cited for "comtempt of idiots" or something . . .

jazurell
March 31, 2006, 10:41 AM
ticket fighting information here:
http://www.motorists.org/

Kim
March 31, 2006, 01:59 PM
Hank-----------Each year when I send in my income taxes it always put in the occupation box------------taxpayer.

pete f
March 31, 2006, 11:20 PM
where did you get pulled over?

I live in the north suburbs of the Twin cities and have been pulled over several times since getting my permit and NOT ONCE have I gotten a ticket.

Here we are not req
uired to state we have a CCW permit or that we are carrying, but experience has taught me that handing the permit over when I hand the license over is good for my record.

As far as the ticket goes, DO not just pay it. Go to court. First off explain to the prosecutor/hearing officer what the circumstances where, ask if there are traffic cameras on the intersection that would prove your statement, they have to provide the footage if one is available and more likely they will just drop it. If not and the Hearing officer or prosecutor wants to push the case he will offer a deal,consider the deal and then ask if there is alternative restitution, which allows you to pay a higher fine in exchange for a non-adjudication of the case. Sorta like pleading No Contest. Meaning you do not admit guilt but recongnise that you have no chance with the evidence available to you to fight the case. This takes the case out of traffic arena and into civil court, which means NO POINTS>NO INSURANCE INCREASE.

THIS ONLY APPLIES TO MINNESOTA AS FAR AS I KNOW, SO DO NOT TELL ME IT IS DIFFERENT IN MICHIGAN OR ALABAMA. I KNOW THAT ALREADY.

My nephew got a ticket in my truck for NPI and someother stuff, by going thru the channels we got it dropped significantly, with no points being added.

Jeff22
April 1, 2006, 08:04 AM
I don't know how it is in other states, but in Wisconsin the officer doesn't have to be in court for your initial appearance. You're just there to make a plea, not to have a trial. This is true for both municipal and county circuit court. If you plead "not guilty" they'll set a trial date and the officer gets subpoenaed for the trial. At initial appearance, you can try to change it as many times as you want and it won't make a difference . . .

BigFatKen
April 1, 2006, 12:17 PM
http://www.motorists.org/issues/tickets/build_a_case.html
This is a GREAT site!!

Fighting The Typical Radar Ticket


On a sunny Monday afternoon, you are driving to a nearby community. As you enter the outskirts of town, you begin to decelerate from highway speeds. As you round a corner, you notice a police car parked off the road on a sidestreet, just behind a tree and a few bushes. As you pass by the police car, you detect a flurry of activity and a block down the road the police car is behind you with lights "ablazin."

The officer walks up to the car and he asks you if you know why he has stopped you. You stammer something about not knowing why he stopped you and he replies "I clocked you on my radar going 39 miles per hour in a 25 mph zone." He then takes your license, walks back to his car to check your record and eventually returns with a ticket for speeding.

Seems pretty hopeless, doesn't it? You aren't positive just how fast you were going, but you know you weren't speeding in the sense of driving too fast for conditions or in anyway that could be described as "reckless." Yet, the officer says he clocked you on radar and a radar reading is proof positive of your speed.

The situation isn't as hopeless as you might first suspect. Let's jump ahead to the testimony the police officer will give at your trial.

As the lead witness for the prosecution the officer will testify that he observed your vehicle entering the Village of Podunk and he estimated your speed to be 40 miles per hour. He activated his radar device, clocked your vehicle for 3 seconds and locked your speed in at 39 miles per hour. He will also attest to his training and skill with a radar device and assure the court that he is an expert in radar operation.

Now, let's return to the steps you can take to develop a strong defense to this, the most typical of speeding tickets.

You should return to the scene of the crime with a camera, a 100-foot tape or similar measuring device and a friend to help you. Park your car where the police car was parked and determine where he could have first seen your vehicle. Measure this distance and take a photograph that captures this scene. Also take photographs of signs, utility lines, and traffic using the same roadway. Take a picture of your car as it was parked where the patrol car had been parked.

Next you should determine how far your car would travel in the time it took for the officer to "observe your speed, at least one or two seconds, and the three seconds he will have claimed to clock you before "locking in your speed." (A vehicle traveling one mile per hour will cover 1.47 feet per second. To determine how far you would travel at any claimed speed you simply multiply 1.47 times the speed. In this example you would multiply 1.47 times 39, your speed in miles per hour. Be prepared to show the court how you arrived at this distance (See Fighting "Time Over Distance" Calculations.). Take a photo that shows where your vehicle would be at the time the officer claims to have "locked in" your speed.

Here's a sampling of the kinds of things you might learn from the above exercise: There were metal signs that could have reflected the radar signal, utility lines that may cause spurious signals, traffic patterns that could readily cause another vehicle to be the cause of the officer's radar reading, or the fact that the distance you would travel, according to the time sequence the officer is likely to testify to, would result in serious cosine errors.

The "cosine error" will prove to be very troublesome for the prosecution. Here's why. Let's assume that you determine that the earliest the officer could have seen your car was when you were 260 feet away. At 39 mph your vehicle would be moving at 39 X 1.47 feet or approximately 57 feet per second. Assuming at least one second for the officer to see your vehicle and engage his radar device added to the three seconds he will claim to have clocked you, or four seconds total, during which you will have traveled 228 feet. This puts you only 32 feet from the officers car at the time he "locked in" your speed from his sidestreet hiding spot. The angle of his radar beam to your direction of travel would result in a very serious cosine error. (You would have to be going 150 mph to register a 39-mph reading on a radar device at this type of angle. The officer will have already testified that he estimated your speed at 40 mph, therefore no one will seriously suggest you were actually going 150 mph!).

Radar operator manuals such as those provided in the NMA Legal Defense Kit (also available for sale from the NMA) include cosine error tables as well as descriptions of cosine error. Most courts will accept these manuals, give them judicial notice, to validate your arguments.

In reality, here's what really happened when the officer clocked your vehicle. He waited for the first glimpse of a vehicle and triggered his radar device; the number 39 popped up instantaneously. The truth is the "39" could have been a reading from his heater fan, another vehicle he didn't immediately notice, or the result of a reflected reading off of a metal sign that captured the speed of a vehicle in the opposite direction. He really doesn't know. But what he does know is that the script to uphold a radar reading in court requires that he claims to "have observed you speeding, estimated your speed, and verified his estimation with a radar reading of at least 3 to 5 seconds." In more cases than anyone wants to admit there was no radar reading of merit, just the officer saying he had a radar reading to intimidate the ticket recipient.

A combination of court case requirements and proven radar operation procedures have evolved to protect motorists from bogus radar based tickets. The scripts the police use when testifying are designed to fulfill the requirements of these cases and radar operator requirements spelled out in official training manuals. They often forget that hard facts that are easily proven can disassemble contrived testimony.

By using "discovery", "Freedom of Information laws" and "interrogatories" you can assemble enough information to have a good idea of what the officer is actually going to testify to during your trial. Attending a previous court hearing will also give you a good idea of the local script being used by police officers who are testifying in radar cases. You can use their own testimonies to undercut the prosecution's case. When you prove to the court that what the officer has testified to is physically impossible or technically in violation of proper radar operation procedures there will be little choice but to declare you "not guilty."

As you can see from reading this general overview, your situation is not as hopeless as you first thought. You can fight your ticket if you are fully prepared. With specific information on the technology that was used to measure your speed, knowledge of the Discovery Laws and Public Record Laws for your state, and other information on speeding tickets you can win!

BigRobT
April 1, 2006, 03:18 PM
In Minnesota, one must inform a police officer IF they are carrying. A cased, unloaded weapon doesn't constitute "carrying". There's some argument about if the magazines are loaded and in the case with the gun. Minnesota statutes don't really address that issue directly. However, if one DOES have a permit to carry and a cased gun in the car, it can't hurt to inform the police officer, but it's NOT a requirement. Many times, LEOs will give permit holders a "break", but there are still some that are anti-carry.

Some really GOOD info on MN carry laws can be found here: http://www.twincitiescarry.com/forum/index.php

F4GIB
April 1, 2006, 05:09 PM
In Minnesota, one must inform a police officer IF they are carrying.

Only if HE asks. The burden is on the officer to inquire.

RVSinOK
April 1, 2006, 05:26 PM
I would think that since the gun was in the glove compartment where you were going to reach, it would be a good idea to tell the officer beforehand even if you weren't required to. I am not a LEO, but I would think that if I was and the person I had pulled over was reaching into a glovebox where I saw a gun, I'd be a little concerned.

I realize the gun was in a case in this situation, I'm just sayin'.....

:p

meef
April 1, 2006, 05:38 PM
I agree with RVSinOK.

I may not HAVE to tell the officer that I have a CCW, but there's NO freaking way I'm going to pop open my glove compartment and have him unexpectedly see a pistol in there (case or no case)! Huh-uh!!

Common sense says just go ahead and do what usmarine0352_2005 did.

Why not? What's the big deal?

Beats the heck out of maybe winding up at the wrong end of the officer's piece while he invites you out into the pouring rain for a while.

:)

BigRobT
April 1, 2006, 09:50 PM
F4GIB, yes, you are correct. However the consensus here seems to go with informing. It generally places the officer at ease, etc.

goalie
April 1, 2006, 10:02 PM
F4GIB, yes, you are correct. However the consensus here seems to go with informing. It generally places the officer at ease, etc.

No consensus here. No way I am telling them unless asked. The only time I get pulled over anyhow has been when I'm driving too fast to get into the hospital. Cops seem to shy away from ticketing ER nurses. ;)

usmarine0352_2005
April 2, 2006, 12:20 AM
No Same or Similar or Pay More.

Depending on what city you get a ticket in you can do a few things:

In Ramsey County: one of the things u can do is "No Same or Similar" which means you pay your fine, admit guilt and as long as you do not get another ticket for the same thing in one year it will never go on your record.

In Dakota County: sometimes you can pay more and it won't go on.

Mortech
April 2, 2006, 12:31 AM
Here in Washington we are not required to notify the officer when you are armed w/ccw . When you have a valid ccw , it comes up when the officer runs your license automatically . I've been pulled over several times and in every case the officers attitude is totally different when he comes back from running my ID . I've been pulled over for doing 68 in a 50 zone and 75 in a 60 zone , neither time was I issued a ticket nor a written warning . After talking to several others with CCWs this seems to be the norm , especially in really rural areas .

CraigJS
April 2, 2006, 12:59 AM
From what I was told by a retired LEO here in Minn., as soon as they run your plate they know if your a permit holder... Still a good idea to let him know your carrying.

LiquidTension
April 2, 2006, 03:14 AM
Craig - not all state DMVs have permit info when your license is run. Personally, unless you're in a very gun unfriendly area, I'd tell the officer regardless.

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