Small caliber automatic mouseguns....what's the attraction?


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WonderNine
April 20, 2003, 03:37 AM
I'm not talking about 9mm Kahr MK9's or derringers or my Cop Industries .357 that I absolutely love....

I'm talking about the small .22-.380 caliber mouseguns. Why carry such a small caliber piece nowadays when 9mm's and .357's are the same size?

Honestly I'd much rather carry a 9mm two barrel derringer with reloads (that I know won't jam, or break in my pocket and that will fire) than a P-32 or a Guardian or Seecamp ect......

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Mark IV Series 80
April 20, 2003, 03:53 AM
Why carry such a small caliber piece nowadays when 9mm's and .357's are the same size?I'm not aware of any 9mm or .357 that is as small and light as the Beretta 950 Jetfire..... and if there is one, I don't want to fire it.

A 5-shot, snub nosed, .38 Special Airweight with +P ammo is the optimal weight/size/power combination for me.

Wildalaska
April 20, 2003, 03:53 AM
I carry a NAA 22 every day, every day, every day. Its so small and light I forget I have it. The only other thing that compares IMHO is the Seecamp or Kel Tec (orr NAA magnum).

The beauty of a mousegun is that you can carry it anywhere there isnt a metal detector. That way you are always armed (not that I would ever do anyhting like that, ie carry where Im not supposed to).

I have never had a KelTec or Seecamp jam. Id rather not limit myself to two shots.

WildwhateverfloatsyourboatthoughAlaska

MikeJ
April 20, 2003, 04:53 AM
When it comes to pocket carry, which is the only way I can sometimes have a gun with me, my Guardian .32 does the trick. I find that anything larger just doesn't always work. I'd prefer to always have something larger but its not always possible.

WonderNine
April 20, 2003, 05:01 AM
A weapon being extremely light is not the main deciding factor on whether or not I go armed. I always will. However, the size factor is of major concern. That is why I love my Cop Industries .357 4 barreled derringer so much. There is no place I can carry this gun and have to worry about being made unless there is a metal detector.

The Kahr MK9 seems to have similiar size proportions with slightly less weight! If there's anyone out there that can't carry an MK9 (9mm) in all situations that truly baffles me.

The new 9mm Rohrbaugh will be even smaller and lighter with (I believe) the same capacity as the MK9 and PM9.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=162980

WonderNine
April 20, 2003, 05:10 AM
I'm not aware of any 9mm or .357 that is as small and light as the Beretta 950 Jetfire.....

I'd rather have a heavy rock than a .25 auto.

Come to think of it, I'd rather have one .22 rimfire auto than five fully loaded .25 autos.

WonderNine
April 20, 2003, 05:14 AM
I carry a NAA 22 every day, every day, every day. Its so small and light I forget I have it. - Wildalaska

I agree that a (longer barreled) NAA .22 magnum five shot revolver is a neat self defense tool as they are so small, light and disapear in your pocket..............

But they take forever to reload and the .22 magnum (out of a tiny revolver barrel) is not exactly a .357 Remington Golden Saber or even a .32.

WonderNine
April 20, 2003, 05:27 AM
Id rather not limit myself to two shots. - Wildalaska

Well, I can't blame you, however as well all know most self defense situations require two shots at the most to resolve. I'm not going by personal experience, just statistics.

I don't carry for the average situation though, I carry for the extraordinary situation. I prefer to always have AT LEAST 15 rounds on me at any time with two or more shots ready to go. Typically I have four (one in each chamber) with my Cop derringer that I carry 24/7 every day of the week guaranteed.

I know how weird this sounds after what I've just said, but I'd rather carry a 9mm auto than a revolver. And I'd rather carry a two shot derringer 9mm/.357 derringer than a automatic .380 with 8 shots.

WonderNine
April 20, 2003, 05:56 AM
Btw Wildalaska, I carry a .357 everyday, everyday, everyday. At work with just a shirt and blue jeans even. That's why this whole .380 and less mousegun thing vexes me so.

Wildalaska
April 20, 2003, 06:03 AM
I'd rather have a heavy rock than a .25 auto.

As I said on another thread with respect to a different caliber, if you think a 25 auto is ineffective, let me shoot you in the face with one...:D :neener:

But they take forever to reload and the .22 magnum (out of a tiny revolver barrel) is not exactly a .357 Remington Golden Saber or even a .32.

Ditto my previous statement...

. don't carry for the average situation though, I carry for the extraordinary situation

The purpose of carrying a gun as an armed civilian is to defend your self against the imminent use of deadly physical force in a situation where you reasonable beleive your life is in danger and you have no other alternative. That being the case, I question whether under any circumstances, one needs more than a pocket pistol.

WildimalmostalwaysarmedAlaska

arinvolvo
April 20, 2003, 08:21 AM
I purchased my Autauga 32 because it was cheap, small and 32 cal seems like enough to get the job done...

It has also proven to be very reliable, which is a plus...I live in a wam climate, and wearing a holster on a belt is not always feasible....I am not willing to wear jeas and a vest just to conceal my piece when it is 115 degrees out...id much rather toss the 32 in my shorts pocket, and still feel like I am better armed than a thug with a knife...

Tamara
April 20, 2003, 11:02 AM
I'm just finding it amusing to receive lectures about weapon reliability from someone who in the same breath then brags that he carries a C.O.P. .357. :D

railroader
April 20, 2003, 11:17 AM
"And I'd rather carry a two shot derringer 9mm/.357 derringer than a automatic .380 with 8 shots." What if there are two guys you are having to deal with? The reason I ask is I use to to have a double barrel 38 derringer that was accurate out to about 7 feet, I could shoot any other gun I own better. You miss and you SOL. Don't rounds like 357 and 38's lose alot of velocity out these very short barrels? Most of the barrel is taken up by the brass. Mark

ruger357
April 20, 2003, 12:16 PM
Love my Jetfire 950.

George Hill
April 20, 2003, 12:29 PM
COP .357. Isn't that what Leon carried? Personally, I'd much rather have Dekkard's pistol, being a .44 Bulldog and all.

Oh, where was I?

.32 NAA is about the most reliable automatic mouser I've ever tried. 200 rounds and not one fumble. Even ejected the last rounds in the mag, something other Guardians don't always do.

I wouldn't hesitate packing one of those. Of course, I'd probably rather have a small lightweight Colt in .357 Mag, but sometimes even that is too big. In those cases, a Guardian would be my choice.

cratz2
April 20, 2003, 01:32 PM
Well, I have a Kahr P9 Covert which is on the very small and light side for a 7 round 9mm but it pretty much dwarfs my KelTec P32.

If someone will carry a P32 all the time, it's more effective than a 1911 that gets left at home.

Lone_Gunman
April 20, 2003, 01:48 PM
Mode of dress determines what size of gun you can conceal.

Wondernine, I see you are from ND, as in North Dakota? I have heard it is kind of cold up there sometimes, and I bet you wear more clothes, or bulkier clothes, than someone in the south east. So you therefore have more choices.

How would you carry your Kahr while in 100 degree heat and 95% humidity wearing say normal jeans (ie, non-rapper style) or shorts and a tucked in shirt?

MoNsTeR
April 20, 2003, 02:33 PM
If there's anyone out there that can't carry an MK9 (9mm) in all situations that truly baffles me.
You must not have much of an imagination!
I think people who've been carrying for some time lose perspective, bigtime. As someone who's gearing up to start carrying for the first time, it amazes me how anyone can carry more than a mousegun under even ideal circumstances. It seems some people prefer to integrate their life into their carry, rather than the other way around.

TheMariner
April 20, 2003, 04:33 PM
Lone_Gunman, I think wondernine is smart enough to not live where it gets that hot AND humid. One or the other isn't bad but both isn't my idea of pleasant.

p35
April 20, 2003, 05:23 PM
Well, my Beretta .22 drops into my pocket like a Zippo lighter and I can rapid fire 8 stingers into a pie plate in about 2 seconds. Not ideal, but easy to carry when there's no way to carry anything heavier.

Old Fuff
April 20, 2003, 06:42 PM
W9:

I'll admit it - I'm a wimp. Worse then that, I'm a wimp with an attitude. I actually believe that if I have to defend myself I can do so with a -less-then-major cartridge/pistol. Oh yes, I know that "bigger is better," but "better" may not be necessary if you know what you're doing.

I got this way after hanging around a Brit. SAS Major during my younger years. His experience far exceeded mine, and he didn't exactly feel "at risk" if he was carrying a smaller gun. If you watched him shoot (anything) you'd know why.

But all of this really doesn't matter because you have a right to pick what you like and I can do the same. If you feel more secure with a "little gun/big cartridge" by all means go that way. At least no one will think you're ... well ... wimppy.

Gerald McDonald
April 20, 2003, 07:17 PM
If someone wants to carry full size or for that matter if you can conceal a Smith 29 with 8 3/8" barrel, more power to you. Here by July the humidity will be a bear and the temp will be bumping 100 every day for the next 60 days. Work calls for jeans or slacks with shirt tucked in. I've been the sport coat route and when its a hundred and your climbing in and out of the car all day and half of your customers are unairconditioned, your miserable. I went with the Beretta tomcat in a Galco deepcover IWB and while it was concealed it dug into my gut or pressed against the seat belt release and left a bruise on my love handles. Off work its no big deal to carry full size as long as the shirt tail is out and I am not sitting all day. Normally its jeans/shorts, aloha shirts or black tees with an IWB carry/BHP. But if I will be sitting or climbing in and out of a car all day its a mouse gun in a front or back pocket.
Gerald

Darrin
April 20, 2003, 09:26 PM
I'd rather be shot at by a .45 from a bad shooter than a .22 from a good shooter. :neener:

If that makes any sense... :uhoh:


edit: btw, my Walther P22 is just damn fun at the range! :D

Dr.Rob
April 21, 2003, 02:17 AM
Why? Because pocket guns hail back to a time where every gentleman's vest pocket held an equalizer and even a lady's coin purse might contain a fist full of fight-back.

That and the hig noise/fire ball bark of my 1908 Colt Vest Pocket spouting .25 cal Fiocchi FMJ is just somehow amusing, and suprisingly accurate.

Sure there are better ways to skin a cat, preferably with a bigger faster heavier rock than the average mouse can throw, but the mouse tries his best and we have to applaud him, and show him support.

Besides, aren't they cute?

Mute
April 21, 2003, 04:20 PM
What's not to love about these:


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=237758

Matt G
April 21, 2003, 05:13 PM
Smaller and yet smaller still has an attraction. Carrying ALL THE TIME is a lifestyle that few participate in. When one does, smaller and lighter has a huge appeal.

But they take forever to reload...
Honestly, I know of precisely ZERO cases of mouse guns being reloaded in a SD gunfight. The whole point is that they are there when you need them, regardless of how effective they are, tactically. So long as you've got 4 or so shots and it's with you, you can probably get out of your bad situation.

I'd rather have a heavy rock than a .25 auto.Come to think of it, I'd rather have one .22 rimfire auto than five fully loaded .25 autos.Why? An auto cartridge (i.e.: designed to be fired out of an auto) with a 50gr. .250 bullet with .0491" facial area at 750 fps at least as effective as a 39gr. bullet at 1000 fps with a surface area of .0387", which is a long rimmed cartridge that was NOT designed exclusively for auto pistols, and may well have feeding troubles in autos.

I see a lot written about minimum calibers by people whom I question carry all the time.

Cooter Brown
April 21, 2003, 05:33 PM
Based on lots of experience, I just can't think of a .32 acp (or bigger) as a "mouse gun"with proper bullets. You have to own and shoot a quality gun like a PP-32 to appreciate the round. The .32 acp is VERY accurate and has a rather long bullet for its diameter. While certainly not the "Hammer of Thor", with a good FMJ it just pokes right on through. A .22 LR Stinger in a "non-pocket pistol" can also be quite effective, and is preferable to a .25 acp, which IS the definitive "mouser". Of course, if a wise man has time,can't avoid the encounter, and has a choice, he'll rely on a HP rifle or 12 gauge shotgun every time, thank you. IMHO, of course.

JohnBT
April 21, 2003, 06:30 PM
I want my Kel-Tec P-3AT and I want it before it the daily high hits 90*F.

John

P.S. - Seen this recall?

_________________________________________

C.O.P.
MODEL “COP”,
357 MAGNUM CALIBER, 4 BARRELED PISTOL

This make and model pistol may have the potential for “SYMPATHETIC”, MULTIPLE CHAMBER, DISCHARGE and may DISCHARGE WHEN DROPPED.

The C.O.P. pistol design did not incorporate a Drop Safety until late 1982 or early 1983. Pistols produced before this time-frame may be subject to discharge if dropped. At approximately the same time an internal design change was incorporated to prevent the retaining plate from allowing a second firing pin from coming in contact with a live cartridge not under the hammer.

Bellmore Johnson Tool Company
445 Putnam Avenue
Hamden, CT

Source:

AFTE Journal, January 1982; Volume 14, Number 1:44-47

AFTE Journal, October 1983; Volume 15, Number 4:18

______________________________

Blackhawk
April 21, 2003, 06:44 PM
Welcome to THR, Cooter! :D

I tend to classify mouse guns as being of small overall size and weight rather than by caliber. The new Rohrbaugh R-9 is the size (shorter, actually) than the definitive (IMO) mouse gun, the P-32. It's a few ounces heavier, but shoots 9mm Luger rounds.

If it can fit in my pocket like a mouse (or sugar glider, if rodents aren't your thing) it can have the term of endearment "mouse gun" as far as I'm concerned. :D

Selfdfenz
April 21, 2003, 06:54 PM
I carry a 22 or 380 or 9 or 45 depending on circumstances. But recently a 380 a lot.
It's no hand cannon.

Everyone knows from watching Bogart shoot the BG's with those small .380 and less Brownings the BGs :
-clutch tummy
-say "Ug" and look startled
-fall down in a most polite manner
-the female interest always jumps at the sound, and sometimes exclaims, but never excessively so

That, combined with the relatively small size makes the Mouse Gun ever so attractive a carry option.

I have yet to see any gun, Mouse or otherwise, I want someone shooting at me. I hope the BGs feel the same and will leave me alone should I elect to uncork mine in their general direction. I know some of the corks will connect!
S-

P95Carry
April 21, 2003, 07:08 PM
Attraction??

PLINKING! :p :)

My HP22 has been great fun as a plinker. Just now and again tho .... when I really do have prob concealing much at all .... I will resort to this (providing well cleaned, to ensure reliability)..... and feel that 10 ''mouse'' rounds will still serve me well better than nothing at all.

As someone else commented ... I'd still not want to be on the receiving end of that at all .... at a mere 5 yds or so ..... there is still potential for damage. Plus .. if I was toting it it'd be cos of hot, hot weather .... meaning any assailant would most likely also have little more than a T shirt for protection!!

BHP9
April 21, 2003, 08:21 PM
Well I was very suprised by the many posts that base their carry gun on practical experience rather than the fantacy world of Walter Mitty as he vaults through the various gun forums.

In todays rushed and hurried world packing the super blaster for most people is just too much of a hassle. As I have said many times before they all start out with the big bore blasters and in the end either end up not carrying at all most of the time or gravitating to the very, very, small pocket guns wether they be derringers or automatics.

Heres one that will twist your mind

Even though I-------------
1. Do not like stainless.

2. Do not particularly love the .32.

3. Know quite well through testing with numerous top pistol shooters that very small double action automatics are about impossible to hit with any regularity much beyond a few feet (3 or 4 feet max).

4. Know that small auto's no matter who made them are notorius for jamming at the wrong moment if one shoots them with a limp wrist.

Believe it or not this is what I carry.

Seecamp .32.

Why?

Convenience, Concealbility, and Corrosition resistance

You do not need a bulky holster

You do not have to go through the hassle of strapping a holster on.

It is so comfortable to carry it can be carried all day long in complete comfort. Try that with even a light .380.

Even when caught in a rain shower or snow storm it will not begin to rust immedietely.

The fantasy world of the gun forums are one thing but everyday living is quite another.

It is heavily rumored that even Walter Mitty eventually retired his huge "Webley/Vickers Automatic" (chuckle) for a very small Browning .25 automatic.

Boats
April 21, 2003, 08:51 PM
Didn't any of you read Hot Springs by Stephen A. Hunter?

Your mousegun is called a "Jesus Gun" in that fine novel. Why was a five-shot .32 rimfire, nickle plated, revolver lacking a trigger guard called a "Jesus Gun?" Because when you saw it the next person you were meeting would be Jesus. The name denotes its surprise employment after one was thought to not be armed.

My Jesus Guns are all Berettas, a 21, a Jetfire, and a 3032 Tomcat. depending on my mode of dress. They are not all that potent, but they are flat, reliable for at least a mag at a time, and far better than being unarmed or only packing some sort of knife.

WonderNine
April 22, 2003, 06:44 AM
As I said on another thread with respect to a different caliber, if you think a 25 auto is ineffective, let me shoot you in the face with one...

No claims here that a .25 is ineffective, just that a heavy rock is more so :neener:

The purpose of carrying a gun as an armed civilian is to defend your self against the imminent use of deadly physical force in a situation where you reasonable beleive your life is in danger and you have no other alternative. That being the case, I question whether under any circumstances, one needs more than a pocket pistol.

Then why do you need mags that hold more than ten rounds? :neener:

WonderNine
April 22, 2003, 06:46 AM
I live in a wam climate, and wearing a holster on a belt is not always feasible....I am not willing to wear jeas and a vest just to conceal my piece when it is 115 degrees out...I am not willing to wear jeas and a vest just to conceal my piece when it is 115 degrees out...id much rather toss the 32 in my shorts pocket,

I toss a .357 in my shorts pocket. It's not bigger than a .32. The same with the Rorhbaugh and possibly the Kahr.

WonderNine
April 22, 2003, 06:49 AM
I'm just finding it amusing to receive lectures about weapon reliability from someone who in the same breath then brags that he carries a C.O.P. .357. :D

I know you're extremely biased against my CCW piece of choice as I've read before. Probably because of uninformed posts you've read? I've fired 500 rounds through mine with (no failures to extract hahaah).....and it's extremely durable, unlike most mouseguns. .357 Golden Sabers baby! You can keep your Kel-Tec P32....lol

:neener:

WonderNine
April 22, 2003, 06:52 AM
What if there are two guys you are having to deal with? The reason I ask is I use to to have a double barrel 38 derringer that was accurate out to about 7 feet, I could shoot any other gun I own better. You miss and you SOL. Don't rounds like 357 and 38's lose alot of velocity out these very short barrels? Most of the barrel is taken up by the brass.

Yep, they lose alot of velocity. About as much as a snubby and more. But they work. I'd rather NOT JUST carry just a derringer. They fire TWO shots btw, not one.

WonderNine
April 22, 2003, 06:56 AM
COP .357. Isn't that what Leon carried? Personally, I'd much rather have Dekkard's pistol, being a .44 Bulldog and all.

Oh, where was I?

.32 NAA is about the most reliable automatic mouser I've ever tried. 200 rounds and not one fumble.

What .44 Bulldogs are the same size as a four shot derringer and can be carried in the front pocket? Please let me know.

Do you carry that automatic mouser in your front pocket holster with lint getting in there an all?

Even ejected the last rounds in the mag, something other Guardians don't always do.

Wow, that really gives me alot of faith in North American Arms....:barf:

:D

I wouldn't hesitate packing one of those. Of course, I'd probably rather have a small lightweight Colt in .357 Mag, but sometimes even that is too big.

In those cases you need a Cop .357 derringer or a Kahr MK9/PM9 or a Rohrbaugh (whever they are available). And a little old two shot derringer for backup wouldn't hurt...

In those cases, a Guardian would be my choice.

Wrong choice...

WonderNine
April 22, 2003, 06:57 AM
If someone will carry a P32 all the time, it's more effective than a 1911 that gets left at home.

Yep, but that's just the obvious....I get tired of hearing it in every mousegun thread :rolleyes:

WonderNine
April 22, 2003, 07:01 AM
Wondernine, I see you are from ND, as in North Dakota? I have heard it is kind of cold up there sometimes, and I bet you wear more clothes, or bulkier clothes, than someone in the south east. So you therefore have more choices.

Not anymore than you do!

It was 94 degrees here one day over a week ago already!

Believe me we see the hundred degree heat here all summer, this is a continental climate which is known for extremes, please don't push 'north = cold weather' stereotypes here because it just won't work.

I'll even wager that our record high here is hotter than yours.

How would you carry your Kahr while in 100 degree heat and 95% humidity wearing say normal jeans (ie, non-rapper style) or shorts and a tucked in shirt?

Front pocket holster or IWB. I carry a Cop .357 in a front pocket holster daily in shorts or jeans which is actually slightly heavier than a Kahr MK9.

WonderNine
April 22, 2003, 07:02 AM
You must not have much of an imagination!
I think people who've been carrying for some time lose perspective, bigtime. As someone who's gearing up to start carrying for the first time, it amazes me how anyone can carry more than a mousegun under even ideal circumstances.

You must not have much of an imagination! :rolleyes:

:neener:

WonderNine
April 22, 2003, 07:03 AM
Lone_Gunman, I think wondernine is smart enough to not live where it gets that hot AND humid. One or the other isn't bad but both isn't my idea of pleasant.

Oh that's very funny :scrutiny:....plz read my above posts....

WonderNine
April 22, 2003, 07:05 AM
If someone wants to carry full size or for that matter if you can conceal a Smith 29 with 8 3/8" barrel, more power to you. Here by July the humidity will be a bear and the temp will be bumping 100 every day for the next 60 days. Work calls for jeans or slacks with shirt tucked in. I've been the sport coat route and when its a hundred and your climbing in and out of the car all day and half of your customers are unairconditioned, your miserable. I went with the Beretta tomcat in a Galco deepcover IWB and while it was concealed it dug into my gut or pressed against the seat belt release and left a bruise on my love handles. Off work its no big deal to carry full size as long as the shirt tail is out and I am not sitting all day. Normally its jeans/shorts, aloha shirts or black tees with an IWB carry/BHP. But if I will be sitting or climbing in and out of a car all day its a mouse gun in a front or back pocket.
Gerald

I can understand that very well.

That's why I don't understand why you don't carry a pocket 9 or a pocket .357 in a front pocket holster!!!!

WonderNine
April 22, 2003, 07:06 AM
I'd rather be shot at by a .45 from a bad shooter than a .22 from a good shooter.

If that makes any sense...

Makes plently of sense to us all....and after all....it's not like any of us haven't heard that saying a thousand times before :rolleyes:

WonderNine
April 22, 2003, 07:08 AM
I see a lot written about minimum calibers by people whom I question carry all the time.

Well then, I must be a refreshing change!

WonderNine
April 22, 2003, 07:14 AM
P.S. - Seen this recall?

_________________________________________

C.O.P.
MODEL “COP”,
357 MAGNUM CALIBER, 4 BARRELED PISTOL

This make and model pistol may have the potential for “SYMPATHETIC”, MULTIPLE CHAMBER, DISCHARGE and may DISCHARGE WHEN DROPPED.

The C.O.P. pistol design did not incorporate a Drop Safety until late 1982 or early 1983. Pistols produced before this time-frame may be subject to discharge if dropped. At approximately the same time an internal design change was incorporated to prevent the retaining plate from allowing a second firing pin from coming in contact with a live cartridge not under the hammer.

Bellmore Johnson Tool Company
445 Putnam Avenue
Hamden, CT

Source:

AFTE Journal, January 1982; Volume 14, Number 1:44-47

AFTE Journal, October 1983; Volume 15, Number 4:18

That's a load of bollocks! check out this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3913&highlight=Cop)

It is no more likely to discharge any chamber dropped from 20 feet than a Colt Model 1911 series 70 or any other gun using an inertial firing pin.

Time to dispel the myths once and for all!

There's also a myth going around how it will fire more than one chamber at a time! Impossible! More bollocks!

Marko Kloos
April 22, 2003, 08:20 AM
Post count isn't everything. :rolleyes:

Gerald McDonald
April 22, 2003, 10:22 AM
Wondernine, the reason I dont carry a 357 in my fron pocket is the same reason I dont carry a full size 1911 in my front pocket. It doesnt fit worth a darn. Take a pair of jeans, add one set of office keys,car keys,house keys (12 keys in all) in the right pocket put a Case sowbelly along with money clip and spare change in left pocket. Add one 357 and I got a bulge like long John Holmes. Unless I choose to wear the low rider pants of a gang banger all that fire power wont fit in my jeans. For the life of me I dont understand why what others may carry would bother you so much. I would suspect people like wildalaska have thought about what they carry and dont feel the need to carry big.

Lone_Gunman
April 22, 2003, 10:27 AM
Wonder Nine, I guess I can't argue with you about the weather in North Dakota... I have never been to ND, so I will just take your word for it that it is as hot and humid there as it is in, say South Florida...

Are you really sure though that you have as many hot days as Orlando? You know that from May to October nearly every day breaks 95 down there.

As for carrying your Kahr IWB, doesnt it show when you have your shirt tucked in?

I do not believe that normal fitting pants would allow me to carry a Kahr in a pocket holster without printing. How exactly do you get away with that?

mini14jac
April 22, 2003, 01:19 PM
Wonder Nine, why didn't you name your post "I want to bash all carry guns except mine."?
That would have been more accurate. :rolleyes:

Hey, BHP9,
If you can't hit with your Seecamp past 3 or 4 ft., you should try a P32.
You can make a Coke can dance all day from 20' with no problem.

I have a PM9 as a front pocket gun.
Yet, with some jeans, the pocket is too tight to allow a reasonable draw.
(Not to mention that it looks like I'm hiding my pet turtle in there.)
Yet, the P32 disappears.
Or, wearing cotton shorts and a tee shirt when the temp and humidity are closing on 100:
hand me a P32!

KMKeller
April 22, 2003, 01:34 PM
BHP9: Know quite well through testing with numerous top pistol shooters that very small double action automatics are about impossible to hit with any regularity much beyond a few feet (3 or 4 feet max).


Not buying this for a second. My wife, son and I took a few pistols to the local range this weekend. Included in the selection was a Beretta .21a in .25ACP. Rapid fire put all rounds in a 4 inch circle at 21 feet. Aimed fire shot at 1 inch. My wife managed to put 3 mags into a 6 inch group, and it was the first time she had ever shot it. So I'll have to disagree with your "top pistol shooters" as to the accuracy of small autos. Of course, mine is a DA/SA.

Gerald McDonald
April 22, 2003, 01:52 PM
Wondernine, I hope you gave more thought to the mouse gun issue than you did about your statement saying that ND is as hot as other climes in the south. Doesnt hold much water when you consider the average for Austin Tx is 107 days a year of 90+ temps with an average 70% humidty. Worst temps that show for ND were around 26 days of +90 with maybe 4 or 5 of +100. Here we will pull 10 or 15 100 degrees in a row with the miniumum never getting below 85 or so. Maybe 20 to 30 over 100 degrees. Big difference, you pull southern winds from the deserts of Mexico and mix with gulf coast breeze and you get that 70% humidity where sweat no longer works. You probably get a hot day every now and then but trust me, its not the same. And I have been there. It would be more believable if you were posting from souther Az or Ca.

George Hill
April 22, 2003, 02:51 PM
"Know quite well through testing with numerous top pistol shooters that very small double action automatics are about impossible to hit with any regularity much beyond a few feet (3 or 4 feet max)."



LOL... Someone needs to stop reading so many gun rags and websites and actually get out and go shooting more often.
:neener:

Hey, that's not a bad idea.
I have a box of 9MM, some time, and a place to shoot 5 minutes in any direction.

I'm outta here!

Blackhawk
April 22, 2003, 04:03 PM
Know quite well through testing with numerous top pistol shooters that very small double action automatics are about impossible to hit with any regularity much beyond a few feet (3 or 4 feet max).Never considered myself to be a top pistol shooter or that everybody I've let try out my P-32 was as well, but I guess we are. Nobody's had any trouble getting or keeping 8" groups at 21 feet and 6" groups are very common. In fact, my favorite P-32 shot is between the eyes of a silhouette target at 50 feet.

Can we show up somewhere and get "Top Shooter" wall plaques, certificates or something like them to brag about...? :D

MJRW
April 22, 2003, 04:06 PM
6 posts in a row and 13 posts in a row by wondernine all in the same thread. Maybe wondernine should get his own forum where no one else is allowed to post.

10-Ring
April 22, 2003, 04:10 PM
I can carry my Jefire easily & more often than anything else. Would I rather carry anything larger...of course, but sometimes, less is more!

Darrin
April 22, 2003, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by BLUNDERWHINE
Makes plently of sense to us all....and after all....it's not like any of us haven't heard that saying a thousand times before Good, you have heard it. Do you actually understand what it means?

Ever heard this phrase? "Too each his own."

Anywho, I see your :rolleyes: and raise you 2. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

JohnBT
April 22, 2003, 05:15 PM
28 OUNCES? That's a big honker.

Pics at...

http://members.tripod.com/~Slippery_Jim/Single-Shot-Pistols/COP_357.htm

www.racprops.com/issue4/leonsgun/cop357_2.htm

And from...

http://home.earthlink.net/~scrhymer/section1.htm

...an Evaluation:

"The COP is a favorite backup weapon for police officers and also as an issue weapon for the CIA.
It is often preferred over the Glock and Beretta by many agents for undercover or assassination work."

Wildalaska
April 22, 2003, 05:24 PM
No claims here that a .25 is ineffective, just that a heavy rock is more so

Good then there is no need for guns, we can just pack a rock..

WADR...get real....

Then why do you need mags that hold more than ten rounds

You dont

WildthisisastupidthreadAlaska

cratz2
April 22, 2003, 05:35 PM
Yep, but that's just the obvious....I get tired of hearing it in every mousegun thread :rolleyes:

Man... I was dismissed! I admit it is not original and quite uninspired but consider it. I am a 1911 nut. I've been shooting them my entire shooting life. I recently made the switch from a 1911 for carry to a Kahr P9 Covert. Why? Because I found myself leaving the 1911 at home and carrying only the P32 that I originally bought as a backup gun. I absolutely assure you that I am not the only person on this forum (or probably even on this thread) that has made this same transition. Full size guns are bulky. Regardless of what Mr Marshall says, many folks consider the 9mm less effective than the 45ACP. If you're going to have something that is less effective than your first choice, why not make it as convinient as possible. The P32 is small, trim, think, light weight, easily goes in most any pocket and is more effective than any rock that you can pick up quickly, I promise.

As to the original question in this thread, I agree. If you can carry a average weight 32ACP, you can probably carry something a bit more effective just as easily. But the P32 is inexpensive, reliable and very confinient. The Glock 26/27 is not as much so nor are the standard size Kahrs. I cannot put my P9 Covert in my front pocket and forget about it, but I can my P32.

Just my opinion. Doesn't count for much.

Gerald McDonald
April 22, 2003, 06:19 PM
I wonder where I get an IWB for a rock, might work pretty good as a backup for my brick.

Darrin
April 22, 2003, 06:22 PM
I wonder where I get an IWB for a rock, might work pretty good as a backup for my brick. Not sure about the IWB, but an ankle holster is available at www.hidden.rocks.in.your.pants.com ;)

kalibear45
April 22, 2003, 06:24 PM
I like my mousegun! :D

http://home.attbi.com/~kbug1/images/walther_pair.jpg

mercedesrules
April 22, 2003, 08:17 PM
The COP is a favorite backup weapon for police officers and also as an issue weapon for the CIA. It is often preferred over the Glock and Beretta by many agents for undercover or assassination work. :what:

MR

Blackhawk
April 22, 2003, 08:49 PM
mercedesrules, that's from the "Q Manual" as in James Bond's gadget wizard. The reviews and comments are mildly tongue-in-cheek, but I found them nearly hilarious!

Navy joe
April 22, 2003, 09:17 PM
My mousegun is a Kahr MK40, small as it gets. Hits the same spot every time too, not one POA for each barrel. I usually rotate between 1911, BHP, or Glock 17/34. People that carry little guns are just too lazy to carry something effective. I realize I am on the extreme side of large guns, but plenty of smaller better choices exist.

Reloads for a derringer? Do you prefer a plain stick or a tactical black one to push the empties out? Must be fast. All in stride for someone who thinks firearms development reached it's pinnacle with the COP derringer.

Gerald McDonald
April 22, 2003, 09:53 PM
Too lazy, naw, just dont care what others think of my choice.

Stevie-Ray
April 22, 2003, 10:30 PM
My pocketcarries are a Taurus PT-22 and a KelTec P-32. For the times I need them, they are invaluable to me. Disappear in a front or back pocket, and I remain armed where I used to forego carrying. Derringers are useless to me, and in any heavy caliber they are practically unshootable. The P3AT looks promising, but when? I looked at the P-32 and the NAA Guardian .380. The Guardian was nice, but was extremely heavy and was $150 more. The P-32 was the best option for me, and so far I'm happy about it, and can shoot it quite accurately.

WonderNine
April 23, 2003, 12:17 AM
Wondernine, the reason I dont carry a 357 in my fron pocket is the same reason I dont carry a full size 1911 in my front pocket. It doesnt fit worth a darn. Take a pair of jeans, add one set of office keys,car keys,house keys (12 keys in all) in the right pocket put a Case sowbelly along with money clip and spare change in left pocket. Add one 357 and I got a bulge like long John Holmes.

You're talking about .357 snubbies.

I'm talking about .357 mouseguns.

WonderNine
April 23, 2003, 12:20 AM
Wonder Nine, I guess I can't argue with you about the weather in North Dakota... I have never been to ND, so I will just take your word for it that it is as hot and humid there as it is in, say South Florida...

Are you really sure though that you have as many hot days as Orlando? You know that from May to October nearly every day breaks 95 down there.

As for carrying your Kahr IWB, doesnt it show when you have your shirt tucked in?

I do not believe that normal fitting pants would allow me to carry a Kahr in a pocket holster without printing. How exactly do you get away with that?

I never said that we have the same average temperature as Florida. If you go back and read my post I simply stated that we have Summer too. And that our tempurature EXTREMES are actually greater than yours. We definately have long months of 90-100 degree heat. And sometimes we see much hotter. And we do have plenty of humidity.

Printing? You've got to be kidding me. Everything prints. The point is the gun is with you and it fits in your pocket. If you're worried about a little bulge showing in your front pocket, than maybe CCW isn't for you.

WonderNine
April 23, 2003, 12:23 AM
Wonder Nine, why didn't you name your post "I want to bash all carry guns except mine."?
That would have been more accurate.

Sorry, but that makes no sense. As you've read, I like the Kahr MK9's and the Rohrbaughs and the larger caliber derringers. So why would I name my post "I want to bash everything else"

I have a PM9 as a front pocket gun.

Tell that to Lone_Gunman, he seems to think what we do everyday is impossible.

George Hill
April 23, 2003, 12:24 AM
COP .357. Glorified Derringer.
Sure, they are Da' Bomb...
Until you drop it and all 4 barrels fire at the same time. Generally back up in your direction.
Nice. Seems like the perfect gun... for the other guy.

WonderNine
April 23, 2003, 12:27 AM
Wondernine, I hope you gave more thought to the mouse gun issue than you did about your statement saying that ND is as hot as other climes in the south. Doesnt hold much water when you consider the average for Austin Tx is 107 days a year of 90+ temps with an average 70% humidty. Worst temps that show for ND were around 26 days of +90 with maybe 4 or 5 of +100. Here we will pull 10 or 15 100 degrees in a row with the miniumum never getting below 85 or so. Maybe 20 to 30 over 100 degrees. Big difference, you pull southern winds from the deserts of Mexico and mix with gulf coast breeze and you get that 70% humidity where sweat no longer works. You probably get a hot day every now and then but trust me, its not the same.

Oh really? Well then I guess that 94 degree day we had last week was the start of it. When does our "26 days of 90+ degree heat" end? May 14th? Then I guess we start settling into Winter right?

You really shouldn't talk about things you know nothing about. Such as North Dakota weather for instance.

WonderNine
April 23, 2003, 12:28 AM
6 posts in a row and 13 posts in a row by wondernine all in the same thread. Maybe wondernine should get his own forum where no one else is allowed to post.

Are you new to computers and message forums? :uhoh:

WonderNine
April 23, 2003, 12:32 AM
Good then there is no need for guns, we can just pack a rock..

Who said that? Did I say that? I don't recall saying that.

Just a need for BETTER guns, that's all.

Then why do you need mags that hold more than ten rounds

you don't

:barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf:

Then why are you posting in the handgun forum. Civilized sporting gentleman such as yourself only use fine Italian shotguns.

WonderNine
April 23, 2003, 12:33 AM
All in stride for someone who thinks firearms development reached it's pinnacle with the COP derringer.

Who's that?

WonderNine
April 23, 2003, 12:43 AM
COP .357. Glorified Derringer.
Sure, they are Da' Bomb...
Until you drop it and all 4 barrels fire at the same time. Generally back up in your direction.
Nice. Seems like the perfect gun... for the other guy.

Have you ever owned or even looked at one before? I can't believe that you have. Do you realize that there is only one hammer and that there is no pressure on the firing pins?

Also, haven't you heard, all Glock .40's blow up at 500 rounds.

And anyone who is shot even in the hand with a .45 will get knocked flat to the ground.




It would take a drop of 30 feet and the gun would have to hit muzzle first in order for the inertial firing pin to have enough energy to set a round off. But this would work with virtually any gun.

Lands on it's side....no dice.

Lands on it's back....gee still safe.


:cuss:

Gerald McDonald
April 23, 2003, 12:47 AM
Wondernine, trust me hotshot one or two days of 94 does not qualify you to the role of honor. You obviously worry way to much about why other people carry what they do. Do me a favor ignore my post and I'll ignore yours.
My last word on the subject
Gerald

WonderNine
April 23, 2003, 12:52 AM
I'm not here to ignore posts.

I just took issue with the fact that you seem to think we don't have hot summers.

All last summer in the heat I carried .357 everyday. What difference does it make if I only have to do it for 6 months and you do for 8 months? Suddenly, you're the authority on carry in hot weather? uhuh nope.


Another thing....

North Dakota's record high is 121F.

What is your record high?

Oh ya, that's right, 120F

MJRW
April 23, 2003, 12:54 PM
Think twice, post once. Think twice, post once.

As opposed to the Wondernine method: think not at all, post 400 times.

You are not looking for answers to your question. You are looking for arguments. You need to stop attacking people.

MoNsTeR
April 23, 2003, 02:30 PM
People that carry little guns are just too lazy to carry something effective.
This is complete nonsense and I'm sick of reading it over and over again. There are a great many people with modes of dress, climates, back problems, or other life factors that make carrying a large gun an uncomfortable if not infeasible option.

As I said before, it seems to me that some folks live to carry, instead of carrying to live. When you base your daily life around your choice of weapon, IMHO, you've missed the point.

Lone_Gunman
April 23, 2003, 07:47 PM
Quote from BlunderWhine:

"maybe CCW isn't for you"


Gee, I appreciate your opinion, but since I have been doing it for about 10 yrs, I really think it might be for me after all.


Maybe its not for you though?

Navy joe
April 23, 2003, 08:09 PM
This is complete nonsense and I'm sick of reading it over and over again. There are a great many people with modes of dress, climates, back problems, or other life factors that make carrying a large gun an uncomfortable if not infeasible option.

No, it is not complete nonsense. When someone carries a P32 for example as a primary weapon they have made two decisions. One, they wish to have a gun. Two, they have compromised with something like " a .32 in the pocket beats a .45 at home". In short they have bet their life on carrying a gun but not really needing it to save them. Is there anything a mousegun does better than a large gun besides sit in the pocket? I've not yet seen anyone with a mousegun that can get hits as fast or accurately as with a full size weapon. Add to that a minor caliber and the situation is less than ideal.

I most certainly have not missd the point, I'm gonna live. I do not base my life around my carry, just my mode of dress. A mode of dress that incidentally really suprises people with how much hardware you can easily and comfortably conceal. I don't dress much different than I normally would. Live to carry? No, but the few times recently I've been without carry have made me so nervous that I do it all the time. A P32 is not a big enough security blanket for me. Heck if they're that close I got a knife and a bad attitude.

A few gun guru groupie thoughts ;)

-Use enough gun.
-A handgun is supposed to comforting, not comfortable.
-Paranoid? What reason do I have to be paranoid? I've got a gun.

George Hill
April 23, 2003, 08:37 PM
Welp... This one is done.

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