Just picked this one up for use as a home defense carbine and small to medium game rifle. I'm going to run it out to the range tomorrow time permitting. It's incredibly light and well balanced, and maneuvers easily even close quarters. I'd have to say it's the quickest rifle in hand I've ever used. There's really no comparison between it and the Mauser short rifles or carbines I've had before. This is truly on a smaller scale.
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April 1, 2006, 10:53 PM
Maybe you can answer this one for me. Can you mount one of the Ashley scout scope mounts on it? I really want to buy one but as a lefty the only way I can scope it is with a scout scope. It makes working the bolt a lot easier without having to dismount the rifle.
April 2, 2006, 12:22 AM
Probably one of the sweetest rifles I've ever shot was 280PLUS' CZ 527 in the same caliber. 2 stage trigger. Just had to think about firing and it was down range. You're gonna love it
April 2, 2006, 01:06 AM
The CZ 452 ZKM is one of my all-time favorite rifles. The only problem I've had with it up here is it sometimes lacks sufficient knock-down power for the larger ptarmigan and hare, and of course it's useless for anything larger you happen across on meat bag hunts. This new rifle should be more than enough medicine with FMJ's in the 123 range for small game and 150 grain SP's for medium fare. It's enough for smaller moose or black bear in heavy timber, which is about as big as I plan to go after. It's just amazingly compact, I can't get over it.
April 2, 2006, 01:49 AM
Congrats on your purchase you won't be sorry.
You may want to check out my thread in the handloading forum concering bullets for your rifle.
April 2, 2006, 06:59 AM
i have one of these with the 16.1 in bbl, and it makes even the crap ammo shoot moa. the best mounts are the factory cz's. they have to be high.
April 2, 2006, 07:17 AM
I have one and it's a fine little rifle. The only thing I don't like is that one has to mount the scope pretty high for the bolt to clear it, which makes for somewhat awkward aiming. I've also been thinking of mounting some type of scout mount on it.
April 2, 2006, 12:11 PM
it makes even the crap ammo shoot moa
I was going to ask about ammo. Thought maybe you'd have to use some premium stuff like Corbon to make it shoot up to potential. But no?
April 2, 2006, 12:33 PM
Never shoot american made 7.62x39 it's all innaccurate. Wolf on the other hand shoots sub MOA out of the CZ carbine. Barnaul is pretty good too. Sapsan isn't as accurate. And from what i understand the cheetah stuff is the most accurate if you can find it. Of course they do even better with handloads. Krochus posted about his carbine and the groups it shot if you want to search for it.
April 2, 2006, 01:02 PM
Those are very sweet, elegant rifles. Very handy, and quick. You'll like the set trigger!
I know this is personal taste: I dunno about it as a home defense rifle....and Cosmo, you've been here a while...the flashlight thing has got to go! Wouldn't an SKS be better for home defense, and the 527 better in the field? Unless you're looking to use the flashlight as a 'bubba tuner' ;) (and you won't need it 527s are notoriously accurate for the money, like your 452), I think it is nothing but problems. (Snagging on stuff in the field, scorn from us blue and walnut folks, etc!) Again, just my unsolicited $.02
April 2, 2006, 02:19 PM
Well think about it for a second. Why wouldn't it be the perfect home defense carbine? It's light and very fast. When loaded with quality 125 or even better 150 grain loads it delivers a devastating blow superior to almost any handgun. Plus, it aims easier and better even when you're groggy, thus maximizing the chance of hitting what you're aiming at.
The SKS-45, which I liked alot, is several pounds heavier and not quite as fast at target acquisition. It's sound as a defensive carbine, but not quite as good. It's also not as good as a hunting firearm, due to the noise of chambering a round and the difficulty swapping ammo types. Plus, it's a historical piece and I'm not thrilled about damaging it in the field. Plus, it's a semi and may have troubles cycling with small game loads running off unique. So that one I'm selling off.
The Wild West mount is on there because I have not yet developed the ability to see without light. It's just a quirk of mine that I like to be able to see what I'm shooting. All home defense carbines should be fitted for one. The mount on there now does not snag, esp. when you pop the flashlight off. It's also very nice to have a little night light on there when camping or going to the field in the dark. You can't use mount the light for hunting obviously, but for defense it's perfectly legitimate.
As far as scorn from the hoi polloi, they already don't think much of shooting grouse on the ground. :D This is to be a working rifle for camping, hunting, personal defense and home defense. It's one of only a tiny handful of firearms that fills all those roles so well. Like my 452, I expect it to get banged and beaten. It's not a closet queen, though, and if it's as well built as the 452 or the 550's I've owned it should be more than tough enough for the tasks.
April 2, 2006, 02:56 PM
lol! Fair enuf! It just looked a little out of place to me. They are tools...
April 2, 2006, 03:17 PM
Yes, it looks goofy. But it works! I'm calling it "Serenity"
April 2, 2006, 03:44 PM
The technical term is "ground sluicing" and it make the bird taste better. If you ever get the notion to see if one of the Ashleys scout mounts will fit I would love to know. After reading about the CZ 527 I think I am going to buy one this summer and give up the idea of an Enfield in 7.62x39. Do you know if there are any see through rings for it? I may just have to keep working on shooting right handed.
April 2, 2006, 04:05 PM
I don't know if the Ashley mount would work. The dovetail for the rear sight is quite a bit larger than most US rear sight dovetails I've seen on leverguns. You'd probably have to do some home home smithing and d&t the receiver. It would be some work, for sure.
But the irons on this thing are first rate, so I'm not sure why you'd need a scout scope on it. If you've never tried CZ irons, I'd suggest doing that before going to a scout scope. They're many times better than anything on a US made firearm.
April 2, 2006, 04:26 PM
...and if you go with irons, you could get a fullstock model.
How do you think this would look with Cosmo's flashlight? :neener:
(sorry, an ugly woman is functional, but a pretty woman is ART!)
- The hoi polloi ;)
April 2, 2006, 04:53 PM
Rings seem to be the biggest problem w/CZ rifles. Not many options. I know Warne, Talley, CZ, BKL, and leupold make 'em. Never did see a see-thru set.
...then again, I've never seen a 527 w/ a rail until today. (Just picking on you Cosmo!)
April 2, 2006, 04:53 PM
Being left handed I like scout scopes, it makes working the action easy. I am working on shooting righty, also. I think I mispoke, the scout mount is not the Ashley ghost rings, I think they call it XS mount. You have to glass bed it to the action, it would actually mount behind the rear sight where the barrel is attached to the receiver. I know they make one that fits Enfields and another for Mauser type actions. I don't think I would want to do any smithing to that gun it is just to pretty the way it is. I'm probably still going to buy one, being able to scout scope it would just be a big plus. I just agreed on a price for an FR-8 so I won't be buying the CZ till late summer. How do you adjust the sights on the CZ, I know the rear is drift adjustable, does it also adjust for elevation? Sweet looking little gun! I'm semi jealous!
April 2, 2006, 05:36 PM
The CZ has scope rails milled right in, so there are no holes for a regular scope mount. The trick would be to build a special mount that would fit the large dovetail on the barrel, on top of which you would have to mount a special bridge mount that would need to be level. It's not a small task, and it would ultimately be pretty pointless. You have to remember that this is a MINIATURE rifle in the true sense. It's literally smaller in every respect, which means the relief between your eye and the back of a scope mounted AO style would be quite close. In order to function as a scout scope, the scope would need to be kicked out to center over the rear sight.
Best move? Just learn to use iron sights.
April 2, 2006, 09:02 PM
I see your logic in choosing this rifle, and I agree with you.
I like your choice of name for her as well. :D
I think one of these would suit my wife. What is the fully loaded weight of that baby? More importantly, does it balance well? Anything that is front heavy throws her off.
April 2, 2006, 09:36 PM
I just took "Serenity" for a short spin at the range. I can't get used to the hair trigger, and my groups with it were actually much worse than the regular weight. My finger is used to the weight of a Mosin's trigger.
The rifle is quite light, and is so well balanced the felt weight is almost nil. Yet it does have some substance to it, so recoil is minimal. No greater than a .357 levergun. What's really interesting is that recoil is actually a lot LESS with the CZ than it is with the SKS, even though the SKS has about two pounds on it. I'm able to reaquire the target faster with the CZ. It would make a perfect rifle for a small-framed shooter, but it also works well for others. I may end up adding about an inch to the buttstock and replacing the rubber pad with a brass one. I found I didn't need the recoil reduction at all, and the rubber has a tendency to catch on clothes and the beard.
The whole platform is very small, which takes some getting used to after shooting a lot of full size military rifles. I capped off about 100 rounds and it wasn't until the very end that I finally started finding my way around it. Once I did, though, I was able to fire with excellent speed. I suspect my aimed rate of fire will be equal to or better than the SKS in time. There is no need to break the cheek weld or move your head at all to cycle the action.
I fired off five different types of ammo. It gave a range of groups at 75 yards from two inches to an inch and a half. But I wasn't really trying to do dime groups this time, I was too rushed. It is sighted in so that the target should rest on top of the sight dot.
April 2, 2006, 09:38 PM
Skofnung, I have the same rifle. It's very well balanced, IMO, and it shoulders quick for me.
April 2, 2006, 11:54 PM
RugerOldArmy.....have one just like your pic..in 223.....scary accurate!
April 3, 2006, 12:54 AM
They make a 550 in .223?
April 3, 2006, 09:51 AM
Actually, the pic is of a 452 FS (22LR). My 550 is a .308 Win. "Scary Accurate" was my impression too! (I kept my first almost-sighted group, pic below. 175 SMK(s) are even better, but you have to shoot farther to notice.) The 452 shoots just as well (the pic isn't mine, I have a 452 Varmint), it prefers the subsonic stuff. Under 1/2" at 50 scoped w/a rest.
The wood stock on mine isn't fully free-floated, or warped just a bit. It touches on one side just behind the forend. I haven't touched it yet, but I think it will clean up easily with a little sandpaper and a deep well socket. When I do that I plan to Accra-gel the action. For now, like the 452, it shoots too well to mess with.
CZ doesn't offer .223 550(s), but do have .223 527(s). There ARE .22-250 550(s) though.
I saw one in the 550 Laminate Varmint version at the ISRA range that shoots like a house-a-fire, better than my XR-100. I'm wondering if I should have gotten the CZ .22-250 (or held out for the Savage LRPV) instead of the remington, but it's still early. If the XR-100 won't shoot like my CZ(s), I'll spring for a Pac-Nor barrel in .22-250 Ackley.
I'm beginning to think Savage has a rival for out-of-the-box shooters in CZ. They're still cheaper, but CZ prices seem to be catching up a little now that folks know of them.
Cosmo, I'll bet that sucker shoots better than your first impression is. The trigger may grow on ya. (remember, they have an adjustable trigger, you may choose to adjust it heavier). But where you are, 10 min with a deep wall socket and some sandpaper, a quick seal of the sanded barrel channel with poly or tru-oil, and a fast accra-glass job may be worth it with the temp changes.
I'd like to see what the 7.62x39 would do with some handloading too. I see no reason why it couldn't be an accurate cartridge.
April 3, 2006, 01:13 PM
Keep in mind I wasn't shooting for groups, but to get a general feel for the rifle and check its action with an array of ammo types. It cycled perfectly for most of the cartridges. The only stickiness came with the heavily laquered Pact surplus rounds, and it wasn't that significant. The copper washed and brass ones went through very smoothly. Next trip out I'll try to work some handloads up for it and run it through the paces at 100 meters.
April 3, 2006, 05:06 PM
I'd like to see what the 7.62x39 would do with some handloading too. I see no reason why it couldn't be an accurate cartridge.
I'd DEARLY love to get my mits on some more of that heavy Wolf. It was sweet shooting stuff. But sadly it's been cleaned out of the local shops for almost two years now and they can't seem to get anymore from distributors.
April 3, 2006, 07:52 PM
Picked one of these carbine up a month ago and have yet to fire it....ugh. The sights look great, and functional and the single set trigger is neat. Magazines are not very cheap nor easy to come by.
April 3, 2006, 09:23 PM
Krochus: Any load details you can share with the masses? bullets, powder, primer, brass, OAL? I take it that it likes the bigger bullets?
Campusninja: You think mags are an issue, scope rings are my complaint w/CZ. Nice mounts, brittle flat-head screws. (They seem to snap REAL easy). I'm considering drilling, tapping, and replacing w/hex heads. There are alternatives in 1", but 30MM options don't seem to be stocked, and Warne or Talley won't sell direct. Leupolds are good for 1". CZ was nice about replacing screws tho.
April 3, 2006, 09:53 PM
I,ve had great sucess with both .311 and .308 diameter bullets the bore on MY CZ527 sluggs out to .310 in the grooves and .300 on the lands, my favorite being the 125gr Nosler ballistic tips but the 150gr sierras shoot very good as well. Stick with either Reloader7 or AA1680 in the powder dpt. After much testing I've come to the conclusion that if you want truly great accuracy from 7.62x39 you need to go with remington cases and ditch the cases that use large rifle primers, this cartrige is just way overprimed when using large rifle primers.
Oh! all my loads are loaded to a COL of 2.310" the max that will reiably fit and feed from the magazine
April 3, 2006, 09:54 PM
bullets, powder, primer, brass, OAL?AA1680 is da bomb if you can get it to meter accurately; it's a very fine ball powder that can gum up rotary-style drops.
I can get sub-MOA 7.62x39 performance out of my ARs with 24gr-25gr AA1680 in Remington (small primer) brass, under a Sierra 125gr and set to 2.250 OAL. The CZ will let you use a longer OAL....
April 3, 2006, 11:42 PM
Using small primers sounds preferable, even if remington brass was required. (It splits more on me, seems to be harder, I hate to anneal the cases).
Ever try H335? (Not that I have in 7.62x39, I just have some from a failed experiment with 110Gr VMax in .308).
April 4, 2006, 12:48 AM
I went ahead and splurged on a batch of Lapua brass. I've had fantastic results with it in 54R and it will be interesting to see how it works with the x39. I'm going to rig a mix of small game plinking loads with Unique and some larger bullet experimental loads. I'll report my results. There's a really huge lack of data for the x39. I guess it's because there's been so much cheap surplus for so long. Plus folks don't view it as a real reloading cartridge.
April 4, 2006, 01:19 AM
Whoa, Lapua, good stuff. I did a quick scan. No Sierra, Hodgdon, or Nosler data in the current books. I've got Lyman (the most, has a few light Unique loads. All large primer tho.), Hornady (a few), and Speer (only 1) loads.
If you need, I can scan a page or two. And if you narrow down your powder selection, I have a lot of powder company PDF(s). Hate to see you mar that fine flashlight, were you to exceed SAMII, but if you were to use it at night, it might give the burgular a good target. Might be a good thing to wobble it loose! ;) (Just kidding, I HAD to get one dig in!)
I never loaded 7.62x39. Looking out of curiousity, it was mentioned that if using .308 bullets, to consider the expander. Some 7.62x39 dies might have a .310 expander. Neck tension and all. You might want to get/use a .308 expander button on your sizing die, at least w/the smaller bullets. Maybe rbernie or krochus knows. Any particular bullets in mind? (It does sound a little like a headache with both .308 and .310 being listed. Small as that sounds, I think it may be enought to be a PITA).
I suspect all listed loads consider the semi-autos, rather than a bolt. But if you need something warmer, the 54R in your Mosin would be a better choice.
April 4, 2006, 03:05 AM
There's a really huge lack of data for the x39. I guess it's because there's been so much cheap surplus for so long. Plus folks don't view it as a real reloading cartridge.
It was none other than me who discovered sub 2 MOA groups were attainable from an SLR-95 with my painstakingly-crafted 123gr AA1680 handloads, then posted the results forst on TFL and then here.
BTW, C.E. "Ed" Harris had a wonderful, multi-page dissertation on the 7.62x39, and the reloading thereof in the March 1990 American Rifleman magazine. That's where I first heard about Accurate Arms #1680 powder, and how it was specifically created for the 7.62x39 cartridge.
Here's an addendum Ed did after the American Rifleman article:
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 16:37:36 -0600
Reply-To: FIREARMS Discussion List <FIREARMS@LISTSERV.UTA.EDU>
Sender: FIREARMS Discussion List <FIREARMS@LISTSERV.UTA.EDU>
From: Dan Major <lektric.dan@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: 7.62x39 article contunued
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SUMMARY DATA ON 7.62x39 - Revised CEH 4-23-90 - This is additional data which was not included in the recent American Rifleman article. I have reloaded thousands of rounds of this 7.62X39 ammunition with both cast bullets and jacketed, and have fired them in the AK and the SKS. I got frustrated with the AK as accuracy of these seems to be generally poor, but the SKS is more reasonable, and is a real bargain these days. It seems the best an AK will do is about 5-6 moa, and the SKS with good ammo will do 3-4, sometimes better.
The gas ports on these guns are larger than they need to be for reliable functioning, so light cast bullet loads down to about 1400 f.p.s. work fine. None of the common cast bullet designs are quite right for this caliber, because the necks are so short, and the groove diameters run large. I designed a bullet and had a custom mould made by NEI of Canyon City, OR, which they identify by the number 155.311GC. This bullet is .92" long and weighs 155 grs. in linotype or about 160-grs. in wheelweight alloy. I designed it with the idea to produce the heaviest bullet which could be loaded effectively without the GC poking into the powder space, and which would be big enough on the forepart to fill the large throats on the AK and SKS, as well as in the 7.62x54R Russian, .303 British, 7.65 Argentine, 7.7 Jap, etc. It has only one grease groove, and a crimp groove .26" from the base. The rear driving band casts .313", the front band .311" and the forepart ahead of the crimp groove is .310", and the ogival radius starts from this large diameter in order to maximize bearing length. The bullet has proven very accurate, and outshoots ball ammo in the SKS or AK with any reasonable load, and in a bolt- action rifle will stay under 1-1/4" 10-shot groups at 100 yards taking bullets out of a 5-cavity gang mould.
The Sierra 125-gr. .308" spitzer seems to be the most accurate of this weight, and shot better than the Hornady 123-gr. .310" and the 150-gr. Spire Points in either .308" or .312", which they make for the .303 British. The popular 150-gr. spitzers intended for the .30-'06 or .308 do not expand at 7.62x39 velocities, but bullets intended for the .30-30 work well. Of these the 125-gr. Sierra JHP flatnose and the 130-gr. Speer FN seem to work the best. I have gotten good accuracy with the 150-gr. Sierra MatchKing bullets in by boltgun of this caliber which I built on a Sako action, but you might consider using match bullets a costly absurdity in an AK or SKS. I also tried some of the cheap surplus 7.62 NATO M80-type bullets, but these shot very poorly, about 4-5" in the boltgun at 100 yds., and almost twice that in the AK, and about 6" in the SKS. I prefer cast bullets for most of my shooting in this caliber, but if I were to buy jacketed bullets the 125-gr. Sierras in either FN or spitzer style would be my choices, with the 130-gr. Speer flatnose .30-30 bullet also strongly in the running, and the 123-gr. Hornady spire point for the 7.62x39 is also OK, as are 150-gr/ .30-30 bullets.
I don't have the pressure gun to work with which I did when at Ruger, but in my experience with several rifles, these loads should be OK. When I did pressure tests with H322 and Accurate Arms 2230 and Hodgdon H335 it appeared you couldn't get enough into the case with a 125-gr. bullet to get into any trouble, and a caseful made a highly satisfactory load. H322 used to be about the cheapest powder around, and works very well in this caliber. I use 28 grs. with a 125-gr. bullet for about 2200, and 25 grs. with a 150-gr. bullet for about 1900. With my cast bullet I use 24 grs. for about 1850, which works very well. Accurate Arms now has their powder AAC1680 which is very similar to the Olin 680 Ball powder, though slightly slower. The best load with 1680 and the 155 gr. NEI cast bullet seems to be around 16 grs. in the SKS, which gave me about 1400 f.p.s., and 3" groups at 100 yds. 18 grs. gives 1630 f.p.s. and about 4" groups in the SKS, with 19 grs. velocity is about 1700 and groups opened up to over 5", which I consider unsatisfactory. I did just two strings with the Olin 680 for comparison with the NEI bullet at 18 and 19 grs., respectively, which gave 1810 and 1930 f.p.s. I would not exceed 19 grs. of Olin 680 with the 155-gr. cast bullet, or 23 grs. with a 125-gr. jacketed one, as these are both full loads. With ACC2230 you can use all the powder the case will hold with a 125- gr. jacketed bullet, about 30 grs., and no problem. With a 155- gr. cast bullet start around 26 grs., up to 28 grs. maximum, for 2050 f.p.s. I have also used IMR-4895 with good results. About 17 grs. is the minimum charge which will function the SKS with a 160-gr. cast bullet, but you can stuff the case with all the powder it will hold and you can't get in any trouble. It works well with cast bullets from 150 grs. up.
As for reloading the Berdan primed cases, it isn't worth the trouble.
Charge Establishment for NEI 155.311GC cast CEH design bullet, WW alloy quench-cast from mould, as-cast dia. .313", tumble lubed in Lee Liquid Alox. No GC used except where noted. Midway cases, Remington 9-1/2 primers, Ctg. OAL 2.20" taper crimped in C-H die from Midway Arms. Test firings in Norinco AKS with 16.4" barrel. H4198 Velocity Remarks (Grains) @ 15 ft. 14.8 1252, 39Sd feeds, ejects OK, but unburned pdr. granules cause occasional failures of breech to close fully. 17.4 1490, 47Sd functions OK 18.5 1578, 31Sd functions OK 20.4 1715, 47Sd function OK, slight leading w/o GC 22.0 1880, 30Sd GC bullet, function OK, no leading 22.6 1909, 27Sd GC bullet, function OK, no leading accuracy decays above this charge.
Charge Establishment for Accurate Arms 1680 propellant in SKS with NEI 155.311GC bullet, as above. Grains Vel. @ 15' ES for 5-shot group @ 100 yds., (cm) 16.0 1422, 21 Sd 4.5 cm 17.0 1629, 25 Sd 7.7 cm 19.0 1710, 7 Sd 11.7 cm Olin W680 for comparison 18.0 1810, 15 Sd no group recorded 19.0 1932, 18 Sd " " " Olin 680 with 122-gr. PS Ball bullet pulled from 101-71 Chicom ammo. 23.0 2381, 11 Sd Midway case with large primer F210 23.0 2332, 14 Sd BELL case with small primer F205 PS Ball for comparison, velocities from SKS with 20.5" barrel Chicom 101-71 2415, 11 Sd East German 04-77 2448, 11 Sd
MANUFACTURER'S CODES FOR 7.62X39 MM AMMUNITION CODE COUNTRY CODE COUNTRY 01 WEST GERMANY A79 SOUTH AFRICA 3 USSR AD INDONESIA 04 EAST GERMANY aym CZECHLOSLOVAKIA 05 EAST GERMANY bxn CZECHLOSLOVAKIA 10 BULGARIA CAVIM VENEZUELA 11 (PRC no serifs) Yugo has serifs 13 CUBA CBC BRAZIL 17 USSR FN BELGIUM 21 POLAND HP AUSTRIA 22 ROMANIA IK YUGOSLAVIA 23 HUNGARY IZ CZECHLOSLOVAKIA 31 PRC Lapua FINLAND 031 PRC NK YUGOSLAVIA 51 PRC (letter N backwards) 60 USSR nny YUGOSLAVIA 61 PRC PMC SOUTH KOREA 71 PRC PMV CUBA 81 PRC PP YUGOSLAVIA 93 NORTH KOREA 101 PRC 141 PRC PPU YUGOSLAVIA 270 USSR PT FINLAND 343 POLAND VPT FINLAND 351 unk. (PRC?) RPR ROMANIA 501 PRC SO FINLAND 539 USSR ZV CZECHLOSLOVAKIA 711 USSR Numeral headstamps containing the number 1 (one) WITHOUT SERIFS are usually PRC.
EAST-BLOC BULLET TIP COLOR CODES: Tracer - Green API - Black tip/red ring API - Black tip/black annulus (PRC) PRC API will have lacquered or copper washed steel case. BRASS CASE WITH THIS CODE and nny headstamp is Yugo proof Analysis of 7.62x39 mm powder from Chinese PS Ball Factory 71, 1983: Is single-base, containing 0.4% K2NO3 flash retardant bulk density .90 grams/cc, cylindrical grains .041 long, .0205" diameter, NOT perforated, diphenylamine stabilizer, compares most closely to IMR4475 in granulation and burning rate.
ACCURACY TEST OF 7.62x39 mm SKS RIFLES BY CEH 1/30/88 Average of four consecutive 10-shot groups at 200 yards, iron sights. Two targets each rifle shot with Yugo M67 123-gr. lead core ball Two targets each rifle shot with PRC 101-71 Type PS steel core Rifle No. Origin Avg. ES No. of Hits on "E" Silhouette 641991 USSR pickup 11.75 33x40 (rifle condition worn/good) If zero had been 1/2 mil left this rifle would have scored 40x40 hits. J8138 USSR pickup 11.38 38x40 (rifle condition worn/good) M3976 USSR pickup 13.77 35x40 (rifle condition worn/good) 15082 PRC 15.16 37x40 (rifle condition excellent) 25636 PRC 12.17 35x40 (rifle in new condition) 01724 PRC 12.72 39x40 (used, VG condition) Avg. six SKS rifles 12.82 36x40 90% hits
RESULTS BY AMMO TYPE: SIX RIFLES POOLED, 12 TEN-SHOT TGTS. @ 200 Chinese PS Ball 12.70 108x120 = 90% Yugo M67 Ball 12.89 109x120 = 90% 25636 RESHOOT 300 YDS. 17.28 29x40 40 rds. PS ball 101-71 This is typical 300 yd. performance for SKS Previous Test of USSR SKS carbine serial no. 641991 by CEH and JBR, March, 1983, average of five consecutive 5-shot groups at 200 yds. Vel.@15' Smallest Largest Average USSR PS 2297 7.50 12.87 10.59 60-K (1950) 31 Sd 10-shot tgts. This USSR PS test shows good agreement with other firings of SKS rifles of 1/30/88, which included this one. Note influence of ammunition quality below: Lapua Ball 2370 3.31 7.50 5.94 (Berdan) Better than typical SKS with PS Ball.
CEH FIRINGS OF AKM FOR COMPARISON WITH SKS AKM Factory 66 #305163 17.25 32x40 (rifle condit. excellent) PRC 101-71 PS Ball shot at 200 yds., typical for AKM and AK47. Previous CEH test of Maadi AKM imported by Steyr for NRA, March, 1983. Average of Five consecutive 5-shot groups at 200 yards. Vel.@15' Smallest Largest Average Lapua Ball 2379 7.20 9.60 8.66 (Berdan) 12 Sd This performance is better than expected of PS Ball in average AKM and AK47, attributable to better quality of Lapua ammunition. Note ammunition comparison with SKS above, refiring the same rifle in Jan., 1988, compared to 1983 results. U.S. Military Specification Mil-C-70760 Ctg. 7.62x39 mm, Commercial Dwg. #12598661 Bullet extraction force: 60 lbs. min. Accuracy: 5.0" max. MR @ 200 yds. Velocity: 2275 +/- 30 f.p.s. @ 78', Sd 30 max. (eq. to MV = 2350 f.p.s.) Chamber pressure: 45,000 psi (Cu) max. avg. Cyclic Rate: 550-750 r.p.m. in AK-47/AKM rifles. Bullet Wt. 124 grs., lead core with copper alloy or gilding metal-clad steel jacket. Primer: non-corrosive Penetration Tests of 7.62x39 mm Ammunition by CEH Oct., 1986. All firings at 50 yds. range against standard CMU ("cinder block")
WEAPON CAL. AMMUNITION TEST RESULTS AKM 7.62x39mm Yugo M67 Block hit end-on, perforated web, bullet lead core broke up and only marked next layer. Chinese PS Block hit end-on, perf. first and steel core second webs, cratered third web, without cracking it. AR-15 5.56 M193 Block hit end-on, perf, first web lead core and broke up, marked 2nd next web M855 Block hit end-on, perf. first and steel core second webs leaving no damage to 3rd web other than deposit of debris. Repeat test of M855 broadside hit gave complete perforation both sides of CMU, spraying witness tgt. 3 ft. behind with fragments, steel core penetrated 3/8" into 1x2 SYP tgt. frame. Garand .30-'06 Ball M2 hit end-on perforated first and 2nd lead core second webs of CMU, heavily cratering third web, and cracking lengthwise.
TYPICAL DISPERSION OF SELECTED SOVIET AND U.S. RIFLES Approximate Extreme Spread for 10-Shot Groups, Estimated from Measured Radial Standard Deviations, (assuming MR as .9xRSd and ES as 3xMR) NRA Master gunners in favorable conditions adapted from U.S. Army APG data, AMSAA Technical Report No. 440 , May 1987. 7.62x39 5.45x39 5.56x45 5.56x45 USSR PS USSR PS US M193 US M855 RANGE: AK-47 AK-74 M16A1 M16A2 (metres) 100 4.8 3.5 2.7 2.7 200 9.6 7.0 5.5 5.5 300 14.4 10.5 8.9 8.6 400 19.6 14.9 12.8 11.9 500 25.0 19.6 17.6 16.0 600 30.6 25.5 23.0 20.4 DOCTRINAL BATTLE-SIGHT RANGE 300 450 250 300 (metres) Firing table for 122-gr. Type PS Ball, GMCS mild steel core BT C7 :.156, Standard Metro, adapted from Soviet and U.S. Army Data Range Velocity Energy Drop Elev. Max. Hgt. (yds.) (fps) (ft.-lbs) (ins.) (moa) (ins.) 0 2340 1483 0 0- 1.5 100 2080 1172 3.5 5 0.3 200 1836 913 14.9 8.2 3.5 300 1606 699 37 12.8 9.9 400 1388 522 72.4 18.5 20.9 500 1190 384 126.5 25.6 38.7 600 1051 299 206.9 34.7 65.9
EFFECTS OF TRAINING AND DOCTRINE ON INFANTRY RIFLE EFFECTIVENESS U.S. doctrine is that the M16 rifle be carried habitually with the sights set to the BSR unless there is a need to set the sights for some other range and there is time to do so. American GI's are taught to aim at the center of mass of the visible target at all times, which centers the densest portion of the round to round shot dispersion in the center of the target, to maximize hit probability. Soviet doctrine is to use a bottom of target point of aim with the sights set at the BSR at ranges up to 300 metres, and to set the sights for the estimated range at longer distances. In operational situations the type and magnitude of other system errors cancel any effect of wind deflection upon hit probability for the average soldier. The intrinsic single-shot round-to-round dispersion of the AK47 is larger than the newer AK74, but both Soviet rifles have a larger intrinsic RRD than either the M16A1 or M16A2. These differences are not meaningful in most operational combat situations because stress is the great equalizer. If the shooter's error approaches the worst hitting performance seen in peacetime field experiments the differences in being able to hit an "E" silhouette target caused by differences in inherent weapon accuracy are wiped out. If effective range is gaged by single-shot hitting performance of average soldiers in combat situations, the AK47, AK74, M16A1 and M16A2 have almost no difference in performance. In US Army testing of the AK-74 rifle it was found that the time to hit was the same for the AK-74 and M16A1 for target exposure times of 2-3.5 seconds, but that the muzzle-break-compensator of the AK-74 was an aid to improving hit probability at close-range targets with burst fire. The third round in a burst from the M16 seldom if ever hits anything and is nothing more than a waste of ammunition. Personnel should be taught to use two-round "double-taps" for close range engagements within 50 yds. Beyond 50 yards rapid semiautomatic fire is far more effective than any type of automatic fire, in being able to obtain hits, as well as in conserving ammunition.
April 4, 2006, 03:07 AM
He has since added another update concerning the 7.62x39:
PRACTICAL DOPE ON THE 7.62x39
By C.E. Harris - UPDATED 3-27-94
I have reloaded thousands of rounds of 7.62X39 ammunition with
both cast bullets and jacketed, in the AK and the SKS. I got
frustrated with the AK as accuracy of these seems is generally
poor, at best about 5-6" at 100 yards. The SKS is more
reasonable, about 3-4" and is still a real bargain these days.
Most SKS rifles group better with cast bullets than they do with
ball ammunition. If you are new to cast bullet shooting or not
inclined to do a lot of experimenting, I recommend 14.5-15.5 grs.
of Hercules #2400 with the Lee .312-155-2R bullet, cast of wheel
weights and sized .312". With this load the rifle functions like
the proverbial pony trotting, and dumps the cases right at your
feet! You can also try 18-21 grs. of 4198 or 16-18 grs. of 4227
with any bullet from 122-125 grs.
The gas ports on these guns are larger than they need to be for
reliable functioning. Lead fouling of the gas port is not a
problem, but the gas piston and cylinder will foul, which can
affect functioning if neglected. The gas piston should be removed
and cleaned with Break Free, Marvel Mystery Oil or Dexron IIe ATF
and 000 steel wool after each use, and the gas cylinder scrubbed
with a shotgun bore brush. Liberally lubricating with Break Free,
Marvel Mystery Oil or Dexron prior to reassembly eases the fouling
problem. You can fire several hundred rounds between cleanings
if you avoid super heating the rifle with rapid fire so that
the barrel becomes too hot to hold in the bare hand. If you do so,
and let the rifle cool without stripping and cleaning it immediately
it WILL be difficult to disassemble!
I have not found lead fouling to be a problem in ordinary
National Match Course style firing, but only in factory endurance
tests of the Ruger Mini Thirty when I was at Ruger.
Ruger does not recommend handloads of any type. Therefore,
they don't recommend cast bullets at all. However, in my experience
cast loads about 1 grain heavier than the minimum which cycle an SKS
or AK will work in the Ruger. These pose no real functional
problem as long as the gas piston and its recess in the slide handle
are kept clean and well lubricated.
The only common cast bullet designs which are correct for the my
original NEI designs for this caliber and the Lee .312-155-2R
and TL.312-160-2R. The latter two are adaptations of my original
NEI design with minor changes to suit Lee's manufacturing process,
and to change the appearance slightly so the Lee version would have
a distinct "product identity." Now that NEI is back in business (51583
Columbia River Hwy., Scappoose, OR 97056) Walt Melander can provide my
original 52A design with its 1-1/2-degree tapered forepart or
a stepped-diameter design similar to Lee's adaption, but with a
blunter nose shape which is better for hunting. Accuracy-wise
there is no difference between them.
I designed these bullets with the intent to have the heaviest
bullet which could be loaded without the GC poking into the
powder space, and which would be big enough on the forepart to
fill the large throats on the AK and SKS, as well as in the
7.62x54R Russian, .303 British, 7.65 Argentine, 7.7 Jap, etc.
Use of a heavier bullet is also better suited for the typical
10-inch twist rates of 7.62x39 barrels. These bullets have only one
grease groove, (which is enough) and a substantial crimp groove .26"
from the base. The rear driving band casts .312", the front band
.310" and the forepart ahead of the crimp groove is .308." The ogival
radius starts from this point in order to maximize bearing length.
These bullets have proven very accurate in a variety of military
rifles for target work at up to 200 yards. They out shoot ball ammo
in the SKS or AK with any reasonable load. In a bolt- action target
rifle they are capable of 1-1/4" 10-shot groups at 100 yards, and in
a 2-groove 03A3 Springfield or M1917 Enfield they average around 2 moa
ten-shot groups at 200 yards with iron sights, with refined loads.
I use 1 part of linotype to five parts of wheel weight metal for
competition in my .30-'06 M1917 Enfield and M1903 Springfields up
to 200 yards with 16 grs. of #2400, 20 grs. of 4227, 13 grs. of
Red Dot or 12 grs. of 700-X. Accuracy of these light cast bullet
loads is far better than Ball M2 service ammunition. I use
the same charges in the .303 British and 7.62x54R Russian as
well. I fill the grease grooves with 50-50 Alox beeswax (Lee
brand) then tumble Lee Liquid Alox on for a light golden
overcoat. These loads don't lead for continuous use over the
National Match Course, even over double-strings of rapid-fire.
Above 1800 f.p.s. I use the same alloy, but cast the bullets
"hot" until they are uniformly frosted, then quench them directly
from the mould. The heat-treated, double-lubed bullets will
stand 2000 fps. in wheelweight alloy without leading, if shot
straight from the mould without sizing, being GC'ed in a .313"
die. A caseful (28 grs.) of Accurate 2230, 2460, or H335 gives
around 2000 f.p.s. in the 7.62x39.
Accurate Arms 1680 is very similar to the Olin 680 Ball powder,
though slightly slower. Both of these powders are used in
7.62x39 ball ammunition, with a charge of 24 grs. being correct
for service velocities with 123-gr. jacketed bullets using the
Accurate-IMI propellant, and 23 grs. for the slightly faster Olin
powder. For a full-power load approximating service ammunition
you can also use 26.5 grs. of RL-7 or 25.0 grs. of IMR or H4198.
With cast bullets the minimum load with 1680 which functions the
SKS with the Lee .312-155-2R is 16 grs. In the SKS this produces
about 1420 f.p.s. and 3" groups at 100 yds.; 18 grs. gives 1630
f.p.s. and 4" groups in the SKS. I did two strings with the Olin
680 for comparison with the NEI 155-gr. cast bullet at 18 and 19
grs., respectively, which gave 1810 and 1930 f.p.s. I would not
exceed 19 grs. of Olin 680, or 20 grs. of Accurate 1680 with the
155-gr. cast bullet, as these are both full loads.
The following tables provide additional test data on the 7.62x39.
Jacketed bullet handloads for 7.62x39- Lapua cases, Fed. 210
primers, Ctg. OAL 2.19" from CEH article in Handloader's Digest
12th. Edition, 1990, p.125.
20" P/V on Univ. Receiver. Vel. 24" Sako
123-gr. FMJ 24.5 H4198 2264 fps. 48,170 cup 2377
26.5 RL-7 2325 fps 52,000 cup 2451
28.0 H322 2180 fps 42,300 cup 2287
150-gr. SP 28.5 BLC2 2030 fps 40,000 cup 2140
23.0 RL-7 2050 fps 52,000 cup 2162
Accurate Arms 4th Edition for 7.62x39, SKS with 20.5" barrel
123-gr. FMJ 24.0 A1680 2233 fps 26.5 A1680 2350 fps
26.5 A2230 1840 fps 29.5 A2230 2086 fps
PS Ball for comparison, velocities from SKS with 20.5" barrel
Chicom 101-71 2415, 11 Sd
East German 04-77 2448, 11 Sd
In Home Mix We Trust, Regards, Ed
There. That should be enough to chew on, for all you surplus ammo shooters looking to cut your teeth on reloading the 7.62x39 cartridge. BTW, I hated H335 in my AK and SKS rifles, it gave early pressure signs well before it approached military surplus ammo velocities. So I've basically settled on AA1680. Regardless, I've been a convert of 7.62x39 handloading since I got my first Norinco Paratrooper SKS back in the day...
April 4, 2006, 03:31 AM
Thanks, I'd found one of those already but not the other. I should have been more specific. There is little data compared to cartridges of similar popularity. The loadbook for it is smaller than the one for 54R and contains data for only a thin range of bullets. The real gap is beyond 130 grains, where the CZ with its fast twist rate should really shine. There's some for 150 but next to nothing for 170 let alone for the semi-mythical "whisper" loads.
April 4, 2006, 07:41 AM
I'm developing a substantial itch for one of these.
CosmolineWell think about it for a second. Why wouldn't it be the perfect home defense carbine? It's light and very fast.
The latter - along with balance and handling qualities - being very underrated points for choosing both rifles and pistols. And a solid hit with a 7.62x39 soft or hollowpoint up close ought to be rather decisive in most cases.
But regarding the "speed" of AKs, SKSs etc vs a bolt-action, it seems that many people still labor under the idea that a bolt-action is "inherently slow" - as opposed to the matter of the shooter mastering the rifle.
While last in Europa I was shooting a Swedish Husqvarna M38 at a club tunnel range, with a fellow member who had brought along his Sauer 200. While shooting he manipulated the bolt with casual lethargy several seconds after each shot. His empties dribbled out of the action. He flinched at my bolt manipulation the first few shots. Not that I was shooting rapidly - I was taking my time for each shot. But the bolt manipulation was instantaneous, very fast, and the empties flying.
April 5, 2006, 01:49 AM
LAK--you're right about the speed of good bolt actions. Cock-on-closing Swedes with the straight bolt are particularly fast, at least if you know how to use them properly.
I've taken the light mount off for some modifications and a blackening. In the mean time I picked up one of the Alaska Sportsman backpack rigs for it. Works fantastic.
I also put an old Blackhawk tactical pouch and cheek rest on it, which as it happens helps put my head in a better position for sighting and also cures my unique problem of beard pulling.
I also made a point of putting lock tite under the front sight and under the runners of the front sight hood. This is just a bit of extra insurance against losing them in the field.
April 5, 2006, 02:02 AM
neat rifle, I'm looking forward to your reloading results.
now if it only took AK mags....mmm....drum.....:p
April 5, 2006, 04:40 AM
I bet it will group alot better without the flashlight rail on the barrel. If you had groups with and without I bet there would have been a notable difference.
April 5, 2006, 05:17 AM
I thought about that myself, but how could it be so? The mount is aluminum and it's physically impossible for it to have any significant direct impact on the barrel steel, other than to smear the outer surface with aluminum. It weighs almost nothing. I suppose it might alter barrel harmonics. In any case it's off for the time being so we shall see.
April 5, 2006, 05:41 AM
CosmolineI also made a point of putting lock tite under the front sight and under the runners of the front sight hood. This is just a bit of extra insurance against losing them in the field
That sounds like a good idea.
Further on the point of rifle handling; I agree with Colonel Coopers (and others) who stress the importance of a not too long length of pull. In his work "The Art of the Rifle" he writes how to determine the correct length of pull for each individual. One that is too long makes smooth shouldering difficult - or impossible. One that is alittle too short is better than one that is too long. Combined with an all up weight on the light side, such a rifle is very easy and quick in shouldering and handling. One of the best examples in these regards is the M1 carbine; it's fast handling qualities far outweighing it's contraversial cartridge chambering IMO.
April 5, 2006, 06:18 AM
A barrel grows and "untwists" a bit when a round is fired from what I was told by a very good barrel maker (Morrison Precision Barrels). This is why a double rifle is very hard to regulate and they do not just bore two holes into a rectangular block of steel. Any disturbance in this "untwist" will effect accuracy. Think about a free floated barrel, why would they do this? I am not knowledgable enough to explain barrel dynamics but I do know every good non-military target rifle barrel is free floated. For a home defense weapon at the range you are using it will mean nil. If you ever want to hunt with the thing it may be a different matter.
April 5, 2006, 01:34 PM
Well floating the barrel is to free it from contact with the stock. That contact is a problem because it creates leverage against the barrel as it heats up and expands. If you just strapped a free-floating piece of wood to the stock there would be no leverage against the barrel because the wood would not be bolted to the stock further down.
EDIT--I was WRONG! The removal of the mount shifted POI slightly right. Must be the barrel harmonics or something.
April 7, 2006, 02:36 PM
Looks like a handy rig Cosmo. Rides like a backpack?
April 7, 2006, 02:43 PM
Yes, it's specifically designed for Marlin guide guns but will fit other carbines. It's very handy for taking on the trail. I had rigged one of my own creation a few years ago using a saddle carbine, but it was always a challenge to get it to function properly.
April 9, 2006, 02:32 AM
EDIT--I was WRONG! The removal of the mount shifted POI slightly right. Must be the barrel harmonics or something.
Well it may be that Bernie Morrison does know something. Like I said, he told me about barrel movement. I was just passin' on the info. I have never built a rifle myself, just made them more accurate them with handloads. I just try to sponge up all the info I can, one reason I am here:D
April 9, 2006, 02:58 AM
I never would have guessed mere aluminum could impede a steel barrel, but I've seen the proof. It's fascinating stuff, but probably over my pay grade. I'm not a *REAL* gunsmith, I just play one when I get ahold of a brass hammer :D
June 21, 2007, 04:40 PM
Is there enough barrel to thread this for a .308 suppressor?
June 21, 2007, 05:30 PM
What do these things retail for?
June 22, 2007, 12:39 AM
I have a scale, and I'm not afraid to use it. :)
Russian SKS (complete) 8 lbs 15 oz
Kel-Tec Sub-9 (complete) 7 lbs 4 oz
CZ 527 (agian complete) 6 lbs 12 oz
All the weapons were loaded and with slings. The CZ has a Burris 4X. The CZ is the lightest rifle I own, and you are dead on with it's handling!
MidwayUSA usually has mags and they're the cheapest I've found.
Ed Harris also wrote an article pointing out that the x39 in the SKS & AK are loaded way under what the CZ can eat safely.
June 22, 2007, 12:44 AM
check and see if your marks are czech only. Mine have czech only markings, no stenciling, and even some of the old Cyrillic characters. So it is utterly eastern bloc, and really loves the foreign ammo. If yours has stenciling on it, or has some K.C. markings on it, you may get some good results with western made 308 diameter stuff. So yes, with mine, i shoot the absolute cheapest milsurp stuff I can find, and it is a one holer. Schweet.
June 22, 2007, 07:16 AM
with western made 308 diameter stuff
Why do ya'll insist on repeating this MYTH. My rifle is only 3 years old ant it still HATES american made Junk. The bullets aren't undersized the ammo is just inaccurate crap (good brass though). And besides my .310 bored CZ527 shoots .308 diameter bullets every bit as accurately as .310
August 12, 2007, 03:17 AM
I am selling my Cz-527 carbine in 7.62x39. I'd like to be able to keep it, but I overspent at the Missoula gun show, so this one must go. Got it for the kids, and they've each picked different rifles for hunting. It's been a safe queen for a while and is like new. Great rifle for wife or kids, or anyone else who wants a nice brush gun.
I just bought a new one. MSRP is 643.00.
I put 3 boxes of 7.62 rounds through it today using the iron sights. It's extremely accurate at 75yds. Once I got it zero'd in the it was hitting in 2" center with 2 just outside the center. My biggest problem was getting used to the 2lb trigger pull. I've be shooting the M1 Garand for so long I'm not used to the "touch" of the CZ 527 yet. I also had the opportunity to shoot the CZ carbine .223 with a very accurate (and expensive) scope. I was hitting about the same pattern as I did with the iron sights. The big difference was when we started shooting empty 12ga shells at the same distance. The scope makes all the difference, the thing even zoomed in.
I'm extremely happy with the rifle but not so much with the ammo. I had 3 FTF's in 2 of the 3 boxes I bought. All were 125gr fmj Winchester. I also liked the Masuer style bolt action, it made it a lot easier to maintain the target while ejecting the empty round.
chris in va
September 23, 2007, 01:36 AM
Not necessarily the ammo with FTF. The firing pin spring from the factory is quite weak. Call up CZ, they'll send you a new one that's stronger to pop the primers better.
September 23, 2007, 10:38 AM
Thanks, I'll give it a shot. I'm not that familiar with the CZ yet. I did try reloading the failed rounds and fire them again but none worked. The primers looked like they had a weak hit but after trying a couple of time the primers were indented like the fired ones but still didn't ignite the primers.
October 23, 2007, 02:05 PM
Hi all, just joined the forum. I picked up my new 527 last night, and put about a box of Wolf 7.62 x 39 through it this morning. This is a very sweet rifle, does everything I wanted right out of the box. Except, the rear sight is a small V and my poor eyes have trouble getting a sight picture. For comparison, last week I got my CMP M-1 carbine (underwood) and the GI ghost ring rear sight put me on target from the first round. Anybody know if that sort of sight is available for the CZ? I didn't find any posts about that on this forum, but please point me the right direction if I missed any.
BTW, I haven't had a chance to fire both carbines in the same session. But they both carry and shoulder like a dream. The older I get the more I like small rifles.
October 23, 2007, 02:31 PM
I bought both an x39 and a .223 cz carbine recently. In that order. I should have had the .223 first. I had the idea that the x39 would be a great deer rifle, and I'm sure it would be. But I don't know what I was thinking. I go deer hunting once a year and I already have my grandfather's Savage 99 and my own vintage Marlin 336 .35 Rem. Those are what I am "meant" to be using, foolish to add another competitor. So the x39 goes along with 450+ rds of ammo. Check it out in trading post if interested.
October 23, 2007, 08:06 PM
In order to mount a scope on the CZ you'll need to purchase the rings for the CZ. The standard Weaver mounts will not work. The CZ has a notch in the rear slot that locks the mount so it won't slide back/forth.
When I bore sighted mine the scope was too high so I added a brass shim to the rear mount and now it works just fine. At 200yds I'm getting about 2" patterns with the 1lb trigger. I'm extremely delighted with the 7.62 and for a carbine it's worth the money. :D
October 23, 2007, 08:28 PM
It is easily Minute of Melon at 300. My 13 year old son nailed a hubcap sized rock at 500 yards with it an hour ago.
October 23, 2007, 09:25 PM
For those of you 527 owners who want to mount a scope closer to the bore you can get a "shaved" bolt handle from Jim Calhoon for $40 exchanged. His modification will provide enough clearance to use medium rings. He also makes a great single shot adapter - I have one in my 527 chambered for .204 Ruger. Heres a link to his website http://www.jamescalhoon.com/
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