Open letter to the THR community...


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cz75bdneos22
April 2, 2006, 07:17 AM
Howdy, Damn it!,

Due to several threads being shut down over innappropiate and uhhighroadish comments regarding the hot topic of illegal immiration to the U.S., i contribute the following..This is Thehighroad.org...follow the principles of the site or you are free to post negative diatribe concerning this or other political/legal issues of relevance to the community in other less discerning websites.

The question that THR must address is how will we contribute to change a failed past/current policy regarding illegal immigration. As Americans, we have a duty to conduct our dialogue, discourse and debate over hot topics such as illegal immigration, RKBA, etc and all other hot topics currently affecting our country in a logical, sensible and knowledge based manner.

We must unite to make an impact in regards to changing national public policy and the current ineffective gov'tpropaganda/ agenda. It is a fact that hard and unpopular decisions will have to be made. Some even not to your liking...but we have a commitment to contribute our thoughts nevertheless...whatever results will be a matter of communication, followed by compromise, in order to arrive at a workable effective solution to the problem that is so hot in 2006. If we as a country keep doing the same things policy wise, then We will keep getting the same results. where we are right now, is the sum total of the decisions we've made up to this point..so, do we want to keep it up?

Onto another note, postings of an irrational, emotional and possible destructive nature ; when you introduce weapons/anti-social behavior to resolve divisive issues, is an invite for disaster in the making... Life is 20% what you know and 80% how you react to it...we all need to keep the main thing; the main thing. Albert Einstein once said " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds." We have a long, hard journy ahead, but as Beverly Sills had it right when she said, " There is no shortcut to anyplace worth going."

The issue here is illegal immigration to the U.S. All comments addressing by whom, where, how, what nationality or race, from what culture etc. are moot points. The fact is illegal immigrants come to the U.S. because it is the land of economic opportunity, period! Not, and I repeat NOT!!! because the U.S.A. is some kind of moral, social, cultural or political Utopia. An American is either one born to or naturalized by law. Not one who espouses a particular common ideology. It's different strokes for different folks! Deal with it.

Now, we have 12 million illegal immigrants contributing to the economic/social welfare of the U.S. They are employed by the service, sanitation, construction, food and agricultural sectors of the economy. Illegal immigrants are made up of unskilled and skilled workers in a ratio of approx 80% unskilled-10% skilled. the other 10% totalling 100% of total immigrants to the U.S. are legal=professional immigrants. What this means is that there are 11.8 million available workers who in their respective countries earn anywhere from $700- $4200 year. Anyone who has traveled past the Western Hemisphere knows that travel expenses incurred by legal immigrants will exceed the per capita income of those 80% who do it(immigrate) illegally..it does not take a PHD to figure the obvious economic incentive, as well as other benfits available for them to immigrate illegally here. Now, the rest of 120,000 legal immigrants who come here are profesionals who are granted visas by our gov't according to need of their respective professions. Thus, a nurse is granted a visa quicker, than say a researcher in superconductivity field..current quotas/lotteries by the U.S. make some waiting list for visas as much as a 10 yr. wait for some professionals. It's not rocket science. Even if you were granted a visa, let's say. You need money. Money for education, money for expenses. Money for applications and for travel expenses to U.S. So, you see. it's not so easy to just say...immigrate legally..if it was that easy, then would you put your life and limb to treck across the globe to cross the Rio Grande, deal with the Border Patrol and even if you get past them...deal with some guys with firearms in hand vouching to do what the law can't do right!!! All 12 million immigrants would be seeking legal immigration...

And, this is just one of many, possibly disastrous, (take matters into our own hands) actions being advocated by so called Patriots and such...por favor... come on, now! We are the kings of our destiny, and we must come up with a plan to address this issue of national concern. Strenght through Unity..Unity through Faith..my fellow Americans.

In closing, I bid you to consider this. Often, negative emotions (thoughts) will lead even seemingly smart individuals to engage in negative; possibly criminal behavior (actions). This being thehighroad.org. We must expect to do better and We will. If we fail, then truly SWHTF!!

i tried to be clear and concise...i tried to make a point.i am not degreed, so excuse my poor writing and grammar skills! lastly, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...YMMV
a concerned high roader.;)

(edited to fix paragraph formatting -- pax)

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Autolycus
April 2, 2006, 07:33 AM
To bad we don't have a "Good Posting Smiley."

NukemJim
April 2, 2006, 08:25 AM
So, you see. it's not so easy to just say...immigrate legally

Why not? Millions have done it before in US history.

Every ilegall immingrant has broken the law coming into the US and has proven that they do not follow the rules.

Every illegal immigrant that gets into the US is encouraging others to break the law by their actions AND is being extremely disrespectfull and unfair to people from other countries who want to come here and are taking the time and effort to do so LEGALLY.

I welcome LEGAL immigrants wherever the come from, I do not care.

I believe ILLEGAL immigrants should be arrested and deported wherevere they come from, I do not care.

NukemJim

Kodiaz
April 2, 2006, 08:39 AM
This has been the Bush lackeys SOP (standard operating procedure) here for weeks whenever a thread doesn't go their way they start the this is off topic chant. I'm glad the illegals don't affect yout live negatively, but they drive wages down in the Blue collar segment. Now I know you don't want to pay an American to do your blue collar jobs or you own a business and don't want to pay a decent wage.


But spare me the off topic thread garbage.

Bush is a liberal please stop your cheerleading.


This isn't on topic is a sure sign that the apologists' arguments have no weight.

I recently became interested in the history of Cuba (where my parents legally came from) I wanted to know why my grandfathers ran here instead of fighting for their homes. It turns out my family was pretty well-off under Bautista but he was a dictator and if you were poor you were garbage to Bautista.
Cuba being an island guns are not easily available especially since a dictator was running the show for 20 yrs. before Castro so people couldn't fight because they had no guns.

Well Castro comes along and he promises the poor everything under the sun and they win so Cuba becomes the socialist garbage country that it is today.

You call them 12 million I say the government is as usual wrong it is probably 30 million. If you look at the recent elections in South America you will notice that many socialists have been voted into office. These people will vote for socialists just like they do at home. So when you have to pay for national healthcare all kinds of welfare and then you get a lot more gun control as an added bonus don't say noone warned you.


It isn't that people that have similar opinions to my own are "so-called" patriots. It's that you and your ilk are tories.

1911 guy
April 2, 2006, 09:38 AM
While I agree that any discussioin that will amount to anything needs to be done in a civil manner, it also strikes me that when anyone who is against the illegals begins to make a valid and strong point, sometimes vociferously, it is declared off topic or anti-cause du jour.

This discussion, not just this thread, is very related to our rights, including firearms rights. An erodsion of one is an erosion of all.

I've always heard that we mellow as we age, but I find myself gravitating toward the more outspoken and so-called radicals as I see more of the world around me. Maybe that's my reaction to feeling that many in this country who are beginning to say what they feel is right are being told they can't, while an invasive opposition is given free reign.

RealGun
April 2, 2006, 09:45 AM
Get rid of the mean spirited punk stuff, and maybe you could have some intelligent, high road discussions.

Lone_Gunman
April 2, 2006, 10:04 AM
While I agree that any discussioin that will amount to anything needs to be done in a civil manner, it also strikes me that when anyone who is against the illegals begins to make a valid and strong point, sometimes vociferously, it is declared off topic or anti-cause du jour.


I agree.

And usually the person who is anti-illegal immigration is accused of being racist. Its all just a way of the Bush apologists to divert attention away from the fact that the government will not deal with the illegal immigration problem. If they can marginalize or radicalize their opposition, they figure no one will listen to their opposition.

JesseJames
April 2, 2006, 10:06 AM
I don't buy into the argument that "illegals" do the work that many Americans won't do.
My buddy worked on a farm handpicking corn through the summers when he was a kid. It was a backbreaking job. But guess what, he is now a successful businessman who is a manager at a national chain computer retail store. He worked his way up. No degree.
I worked many heavy labor jobs and in some ways enjoy it. I am not the office/cubicle type, no sir.
American families should return to the value of WORK. And not view labor-intensive jobs as "beneath me".
Send all the illegals back and get those lazy spoiled brat, soda guzzling, potato chip munching, boob-tube watching, pointless cell-phone conversation having teenagers off their Xboxes and Playstations and earning their pay and learning the value of a dollar instead of becoming another useless college grad who can't find a job in their field and has a stinking high-falutin' sense of entitlement. I can't believe how many of those there are. Sheesh.
In my view those illegals are STEALING jobs. Good character building jobs.
Maybe if those rascals at Enron and WorldCom started out the way my buddy did they wouldn't have been so ruthlessly unscrupulous sons of you know what excuse my French.

Travis Lee
April 2, 2006, 10:12 AM
Why is it "unhighroadish" to discuss the failure/refusal of the US government to defend the borders, and enforce existing law?

If some members believe that 12 million illegal aliens in the US is a good thing,
I would like to know if 24 million is better... Is 50 million illegal aliens better still?

How will we know when we have "enough" illegal aliens,
and how will we control the illegal immigration, THEN?

If illegal immigration, and the related issues are prohibited topics here, I would like a clear unambiguous statement, by the moderators to that effect.


--Travis--

wingman
April 2, 2006, 10:29 AM
I think Illegal immigration is an important topic however it requires we remain
civil, many posters become very impassioned over the issue some I think
want it closed so they scream racist.

Art Eatman has been more then fair on this issue through out my viewing
of this subject and I believe would remain so if the name calling and
Inflamatory language would halt.

My opinion at no cost.:)

Gun Geezer
April 2, 2006, 10:37 AM
:banghead:
Mods just amaze me. They are the same on this forum and all others. They get all holier than tho and start shutting down any thread they have the slightest problem with.

For a max extreme example I offer "DU Underground". Disagree in the minutae with Mod Montra and you are shut down and locked out permanently.

The ILLEGAL immigration issue is one Many Many of us want to discuss at length, but because Eatman and others do not see the value in our discussion he proceeds to lock everything down. At the end of one locked thread, the Great Mod Eatman indicates he will limit the topic to only 1 thread. Fine. Problem is the Great Mod Eatman locked the last one.


This rant is off topic. Go ahead and lock it down and ban me from the site.

tanksoldier
April 2, 2006, 10:38 AM
The problem as I see it is that laws are on the books which are deliberately not being enforced. Either enforce the law, or eliminate the law. The worst possible thing is to have a law on the books, and then ignore it.

I support legal immigrants, every single one of us has a few in their family tree, even the "Native Americans" probably had immigrant ancestors from Asia. I'll even support a "registered guest worker" program. I'm not going out and harvesting almonds or whatever, if they want the work let them have it.

I do not support anyone who breaks the law. Illegal immigrants are just that, illegal, and should be delt with acordingly.

allmons
April 2, 2006, 10:40 AM
People BROKE THE LAW, entering our country illegally.
Close the border, send a bill to Mexico for the damage caused, and then make it easier to legally immigrate.

What is there to discuss?

All the guardhouse lawyers amaze me with their ability to take a simple issue and make it complex and stupid.

Racism has NOTHING to do with Americans wanting laws enforced. If the law doesn't work, take it off the books. But DO NOT reward people for breaking the law.

:)

TexasRifleman
April 2, 2006, 10:45 AM
That is the important thing, that we are talking about criminals. In a lot of cases people that violate the law daily in any number of ways.

It's funny that if we were talking about a burglary or a murder it would be OK to call for the head of the criminal, but it's "not the High Road way" to do the same thing for the criminals in this case.

You call for the hard punishment of a crazed shooter it's fine. You call for the hard punishment of a mass of criminals that violate US law every day and you're a "racist".

Don Gwinn
April 2, 2006, 11:08 AM
Folks, if you read the rules, there's no mystery. THR is a place for civil discussion. In the Legal/Political forum, civil discussion of topics related to civil liberties and the politics of gun ownership are appropriate.

Discussions of who's going to shoot who are not appropriate.
Discussions of the best order in which to desecrate a flag in various ways are not appropriate.
Discussions of which THR members are patriots and which are tories are not appropriate.
Discussions of how much you dislike the Mexicans in your neighborhood are not appropriate.
Discussions of why everyone who opposes illegal immigration is so bigoted and racist against Mexicans are not appropriate.

So far, we're getting complaints that we're far too liberal and censoring the anti-illegal point of view. We're also getting complaints that we're far-right shills and censoring the pro-immigrant point of view. That's the best measure of fairness we have.

There are dozens of places out there to discuss how immigration should be handled, but if you can't keep it civil and focused on civil liberties, it doesn't belong here. Blame whoever you need to blame.

thereisnospoon
April 2, 2006, 11:27 AM
......2.......

The Illegal Immigration issue is hot everywhere, and THR is no exception.

Some interesting facts...

1. Illegal immigration is.....ILLEGAL!
2. The unemployment rat ein the US is at an all-time low of around 3.5-5%, with 3% of the population being un-employable or too freakin lazy to work.


Some opinions...

1. Saying "There just here to work" as an excuse for their illegal behavior is like saying "he was just horny" about a rape suspect.
2. Keeping to "The High Road" is difficult when people so blatent violate our laws.

more later

Herself
April 2, 2006, 11:47 AM
A lot of things are illegal. It's Ayn Rand time; she wrote, roughly* "The thing to do is pass so many laws making so many things illegal that nobody can get anything done without breaking one or more of them; and then cash in on the guilt!" You have broken one of more laws in the past seven days; if every law was perfectly and universally applied, we'd all do time. Consider all the ways "cashing in on the guilt" is used, both pro and con this issue.

"Illegal immigrants:" not all of them are immigrating; economically, it makes more sense for many to keep the house and family at home while working in the States and sending money back. Pay is better here and it is cheaper to live there. (Wasn't NAFTA supposed to make that all better? Some fix!)

Good luck keeping 'em out. Look to the Berlin Wall for an example of the sort of price/performance tradeoff we can expect. And are you willing to accept the inevitable changes in society that will result from a closed border patrolled by a large force of guards with orders to shoot to kill? This kind of behavior does not occur in a vacuum. Just as the explosive growth of SWAT teams has resulted in increasingly militarized police forces with an ever-growing "us vs. them" attitude towards the citizens they are sworn to protect, we would see grim spin-off from a fortified, militarized border.

I do not have a solution. I don't claim there's no problem. I simply note that some of the proposed solutions are at least as bad as the problem.

--Herself
________________________________
* I like Atlas Shrugged but it will take all day to track this quote down. If you want to find it, read the book yourself!
Courtesy of Zundfolge's sig: "There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws...you create a nation of law-breakers and then you cash in on guilt."
Ayn Rand

hillbilly
April 2, 2006, 12:03 PM
Oh yeah...un-High-Roadish...

You mean like immediately locking a thread wherein all I posted was a link to a Reconquista web site wherein a group of protestors took photos of themselves expressing their real beliefs in the streets of Dallas?

My post had no profanity.

It was linked to an actual site.

However, pictures that Mexia.org protestors took of themselves expressing their ideas that Texas is still actually part of Mexico, and that all the "Gringos" should be shipped back to Europe, and that the southwestern US should be subjected to a "reconquista" were apparently not very "High Road."

Of course, concern about a radical group of foreign nationals inside the country whose blatantly-expressed goal is to transform a part of this country into some other country has nothing, and I mean nothing to do with "civil rights" in the US.....:rolleyes:

Yeah....got it......"Un-High-Roadish."

hillbilly

Justin
April 2, 2006, 12:12 PM
Mods just amaze me. They are the same on this forum and all others. They get all holier than tho and start shutting down any thread they have the slightest problem with.


Evidently you haven't read and/or posted on a lot of forums. For it's size, THR is one of the most hands-off forums I've ever seen.

For a max extreme example I offer "DU Underground". Disagree in the minutae with Mod Montra and you are shut down and locked out permanently.

Now you're just being silly. Trying to draw some sort of comparison between the moderating styles of THR and DU is the most patently absurd thing I've heard all week.

The ILLEGAL immigration issue is one Many Many of us want to discuss at length, but because Eatman and others do not see the value in our discussion he proceeds to lock everything down. At the end of one locked thread, the Great Mod Eatman indicates he will limit the topic to only 1 thread. Fine. Problem is the Great Mod Eatman locked the last one.

If they're all locked, then start a new one. But must we have a new thread everytime somebody crosses the border illegally? It's tiresome and annoying to open up L&P and see fifty threads about the same topic.

This rant is off topic. Go ahead and lock it down and ban me from the site.

If you're so unhappy with THR and the way that it's run, you're free to stop posting and go find a different forum. No one's holding a gun to your head. The internet is a big place, and there are thousands of other forums.

Bartholomew Roberts
April 2, 2006, 12:14 PM
Just my $0.02 as a mod and not the "official" position at all...

As somebody who shut down a fair number of those threads, I would point out that at one time we had TEN active threads on illegal immigration just on the front page. This is a primarily a firearms discussion forum and some of the links to "civil liberties" have been tenuous at best.

There are no shortage of places people can discuss illegal immigration on the Internet. It can be, and is being, discussed here; but let's use some common sense. If there are already five threads open on illegal immigration is a post titled "Mexican Flag Thrown In Face Of Hispanic By Gringo" adding something valuable to the discussion of civil liberties?

I'd also like to comment on the disgusting use of phrases like "Bush-lackeys" and "Democraps" to refer to your fellow members on this board. I've always thought of THR as a friendly and informal discussion in somebody's home. I assume the person I am talking to is a friend. I don't go looking for reasons to be offended and if I can interpret something two ways, I use the interpretation that is the least offensive. I certainly don't consider it civil to use offensive terms to describe people that you know are in the room with you.

It seems lately that the friendly, informal discussion is getting crashed by a lot people who do not share these values. Get this through your head, THR is seeking a certain type of discussion. If that discussion isn't your cup of tea, then do the polite thing and find a place that better suits you. While THR is a warm and welcoming place, I would much rather see rowdy guests kicked out permanently than see the discussion get nasty - and if anybody asked me, I would certainly support asking a bunch of people to leave the party right now without any further warning.

hso
April 2, 2006, 12:21 PM
The problem with this discussion and many others that are not directly related to RKBA is that we have a wide range of potentially polar positions represented. Everyone here is part of the "firearms community" and we're all in the same ballpark about the 2nd being an individual right that reduces the range of disagreements to how we achieve the same goal.

Then we have issues that L&P deals with. If it's not a direct gun issue then we've got full range opposition possible. Fine, part of why the place is here is so that those issues can be discussed. But they have to be discussed instead of descending into name calling (both personal and race/ethnicity) and threats. Passions can run high on issues related to immigration, but the place is called The High Road and when the debate descends into name calling and threats the discussion has run off "The Road" altogether.

Some folks can't control themselves in a discussion, but this isn't some smoky bar with alcohol lubricating the brakes. We can sit here and type our thoughts and then cut the text and paste it into Word, or whatever you use, and let the spell checker fix our hurried typing. If we can do that there's no reason at all we can't take a look at how we're expressing ourselves before we put it on The High Road.

Biker
April 2, 2006, 12:34 PM
In all honesty, I have to say that THR is moderated better than any other board I've visited which is why I spend most of my time here. I don't like the fact that so many threads concerning immigration are shut down, but in fairness, it's usually because some of us respond to particular posters who, I believe, are deliberately *trying* to get the thread shut down.
They usually accomplish their goals.
Oh, and guilty as charged.:o
Biker

The Drew
April 2, 2006, 12:41 PM
Let's put all this into perspective for some people, Illegals undercutting minimum wage and taxes is good for corporate profits... Therefore republicans don't want to fix the problem.

Illegals are just poor mexicans to the democrats who want to hand them a piece of bread and some free healthcare so that if they find a way to get registered to vote, they will vote socialist er, democrat...

There are a few "rogues" who actually want to stop illegals coming into the country, but not enough.

Art Eatman
April 2, 2006, 12:43 PM
Mr. Pearson, I believe I called for one topic in a thread, not one and only one thread on the subject of illegal immigration. Question: Why would I bother to ban somebody who's said he no longer wants to post here? :D

Funny. Yesterday, I had a PM from a member who called me a wimp for not locking threads about illegals. Now I'm "Great Mod Eatman" because I did.

Don Gwinn is right: We're doing a good job. :D

If we stay with one topic in a thread, the thread then doesn't resemble a third-grader's story about a bar fight.

You'll notice that in general my remarks at closing have to do with members' rudeness and discourtesy. They speak to thread drift. My comments also speak to providing some new information or insights into the problems, and polite discussion thereof.

We don't convince fence-straddlers in gun issues that we're real and worthwhile people and not knuckle-dragging Neanderthals with commentaries indicating we'd go to shooting and killing anybody who's illegally crossing the Border. The purpose of THR is not to prove that Sarah Brady is correct about us. Why be her willing asistant?

There's nothing at all new about our demanding that posts be polite and courteous. Nothing new about avoiding foul language, insults and sarcasm. Just because a topic is a "hot topic" is no excuse for acting childish.

Enuf. I'm going back to my coffee and house chores.

Art

erik the bold
April 2, 2006, 01:19 PM
From thereisnospoon:
2. The unemployment rate in the US is at an all-time low of around 3.5-5%, with 3% of the population being un-employable or too freakin lazy to work.

In many areas of the country, the UE rate is quite low. Try to view that v/s the "rust belt" areas where the rate is 7-8% and rising because all the manufacturing jobs have already gone South and overseas. No wonder people are becoming so vocal on this issue.........

308win
April 2, 2006, 01:24 PM
it's usually because some of us respond to particular posters who, I believe, are deliberately *trying* to get the thread shut down.
They usually accomplish their goals.
Oh, and guilty as charged.

Me too bad also.

280PLUS
April 2, 2006, 01:34 PM
It seems to me, having only seen and read THIS thread, that the point about how this is an L&P forum that is supposed to be limited to GUN related L&P issues is somehow being missed. I see nothing, or very little, in the way of gun related posts in this thread. I imagine there was very little gun related material in the threads being discussed here. That is conjecture on my part.

The mods around here do a pretty damn good job for the pay they get. I have always done my best to work with them and it has always been a pleasant and positive experience and I've "talked" to a few of em. :p

Thanks mods.

280

Lone_Gunman
April 2, 2006, 01:38 PM
I think THR is a great forum with great moderators, but there does seem to at least some bias in favor of illegal immigration on their part.

Bartholomew Roberts
April 2, 2006, 01:45 PM
there does seem to at least some bias in favor of illegal immigration on their part.

What is it you are seeing that makes you think there is bias?

TexasRifleman
April 2, 2006, 01:46 PM
It seems to me, having only seen and read THIS thread, that the point about how this is an L&P forum that is supposed to be limited to GUN related L&P issues is somehow being missed.

I direct your attention to the description of this forum, off of the main page.

Get informed on issues affecting the right to keep and bear arms and other civil rights. Coordinate activism, debate with allies and opponents. Discuss laws concerning firearm ownership, concealed carry and self-defense.

Some of the threads have had a tenuous connection to civil rights, some have had that as their firm foundation.

I'd agree that some of the threads have been out there, but this is NOT a gun related only L&P forum as currently defined.

There are PLENTY of possible implications on civil rights, both for citizens and non-citizens of the US in this sitution to warrant an appropriate discussion.

Sungun09
April 2, 2006, 01:55 PM
:mad: I detest the illegals because of what i had to go through.

Enough is enough. The government is SUPPOSED to enforce laws, and NOT selectively at that.

Arrest them all and throw them out. I am sure EVERY LEGAL immigrant would have NO problem with that.

TexasRifleman
April 2, 2006, 02:00 PM
Sungun09, you bring up an interesting point.

Would you mind explaining a bit about what exactly you had to do to get status as a LEGAL immigrant?

If we do as you and others suggest (myself included), just toss all the illegals out, what exactly does it take for those that truly want to be here to return?

There must be a system in place already, why don't more people follow the system? Maybe if I understood the current system it would be more clear, but I don't really know what it entails.

Thanks

wingman
April 2, 2006, 02:06 PM
Once again not trying to kiss moderator butt here but I find this the best
firearms board in regards to discussion of this type however it must be
Phrased in a civil manner via common sense as we are not sitting in a bar,
etc.
"When you have a good thing don't kick it in the face." A quote from my
grandpa.

pax
April 2, 2006, 02:36 PM
I think THR is a great forum with great moderators, but there does seem to at least some bias in favor of illegal immigration on their part.
That's hysterical.

There are dozens of moderators on THR. We're not a single person. We are a group of people with a shared vision to build a worthwhile place to visit online.

We certainly don't all agree on this issue, not even sort of. Nor on many others.

These (and other) thread closures really-and-truly are not happening because of the political opinion of any one moderator or group of moderators. Threads don't get closed on THR simply because a moderator doesn't like the opinions expressed.

Threads get closed because:

* they are off-topic for the board, or because
* they are duplicates of threads already in progress, or because
* too many posters have thrown too many insults and the alternative is to ban people which we'd rather not do unless we have to.

I closed a few L&P threads the other day, because several of the specific L&P moderators were out of town or offline. Most of the threads I closed were about illegal immigration. At the time I closed that handful of threads, there were literally eleven open threads discussing the topic -- an annoying lot of clutter for someone who might come on THR to discuss something other than this. For those who are keeping score, those closures would fall under the category of "duplicates of threads already in progress."

My personal political opinion about illegal immigration can pretty well be summed up by what Herself posted here. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2357137&postcount=17) But my personal political opinion doesn't figure in my reasons for shutting down threads (rather the opposite, in fact: I literally hate shutting down threads in which I have participated even slightly, because dealing with accusations like the above is so danged annoying).

I closed threads because my opinion as a moderator is that there were too many threads open on the topic. I also closed them because rudely trying to shout each other down makes L&P a very unpleasant place to visit. Such behavior is not worthy of what we're trying to do here on THR (see Bartholomew Roberts' post).

Another note, sadly: egging each other on to more rudeness against people who disagree with your political opinions is a darn good way to get yourself and those who join in with you banned from posting here. If that happens, it won't be because I or any other moderator disagrees with your political opinion. It would be because you made yourself too obnoxious to tolerate in Oleg's living room.

pax

longeyes
April 2, 2006, 02:41 PM
Ad hominem attacks and chest-beating in any thread are certainly not desirable. They waste time, energy, bandwidth. That said, I also happen to believe that there are several provocateurs on this forum who have divined the easy road to getting threads shut down. Going whining to the schoolmaster was invidious when we were kids; it's invidious now. Personal insults are one thing; not wanting to hear someone else's position, however unpleasant you might find it, is quite another.

Now, are we to avoid the raw and honest in dealing with inflammatory subjects? Or are we just to avoid any topic of real legal and political sizzle? Illegal immigration, like the "Islamic Problem," is a topic bound to produce heat. And it SHOULD. These are the most serious issues of our day; they do, most certainly, impinge directly on the present and future issue of RKBA because RKBA is bound up with the laws of this nation and its culture. If we are afraid of the real, afraid of passion, then The High Road will become not morally elevated but a place of rarefied air, a polite tea-room where old ladies of both genders happen to pack .45s (or is it 9mm?--but that's another topic, sorry).

There were threads shut down because they became back alley pissing contests, that's true. But there were others that were deemed "off-topic" only because they exposed a view that some here seem to find politically incorrect. That at least is my impression, and I have been in the center of all of them. Threads that consist of a link--as was earlier pointed out--to photos of a march, revealing its "dark side," are a perfect example of this.

If we want to take the heart out of THR, that's fine, it's permissible, but it's clear that threads that have hundreds of posters and thousands of viewers are touching a chord that, in my opinion, shouldn't be ignored just because a few misbehave. We have the option to ignore those posters or to ignore the entire thread altogether. I believe that THR should be a brave and daring community that is not afraid to give the podium even to loud voices. Why should THR not reflect what is going on "outside?" You think this issue is going to be resolved by telling America to hush? I don't. We here are at least thinking seriously about the matter, and some of us will effect its outcome in the outer world. Let's be polite, but let's be bold too. We only go around once (so far as I know); let's make the most of it.

Lone_Gunman
April 2, 2006, 03:00 PM
These (and other) thread closures really-and-truly are not happening because of the political opinion of any one moderator or group of moderators. Threads don't get closed on THR simply because a moderator doesn't like the opinions expressed.



If you say so.

Several moderators have said they have closed illegal immigration threads because there are too many of them. But this rule is not consistently applied to other topics, in my opinion. For example "45 acp versus 9mm" has been done to death, but I haven't seen many threads closed just because there have been a lot of them. There have been hundreds of threads on the War on Terror, but they haven't been closed for that reason either. As long as the threads say civil, why not let people talk about what they want to talk about?

I realize this forum is private property, and am happy to respect the desires of the owners. If illegal immigration threads are not wanted, then add them to the banned list of topics like abortion and religion, and I am sure most people would abide by the rules.

I think there have been so many threads posted here about illegal immigration because there is a lot of concern over the issue. This matter will eventually have to be dealt with by the government, and I believe their solution will likely effect the sovereignty of our nation, and likely will affect all our civil rights as well. It is a matter worthy of discussion.

I apologize if I insulted any of the moderators by my use of the word "bias", but it seems to me, in my opinion, that the policy of thread closings on illegal immigration is different than it is on other topics. I chose the word "bias" based on what seemed to be inconsistent rules regarding thread closings on the illegal immigration topic. I am sure you guys disagree, and will point that out. I don't think I am the only person that feels that way, I just hope I don't get banned for saying this.

Bartholomew Roberts
April 2, 2006, 03:24 PM
Several moderators have said they have closed illegal immigration threads because there are too many of them. But this rule is not consistently applied to other topics, in my opinion. For example "45 acp versus 9mm" has been done to death, but I haven't seen many threads closed just because there have been a lot of them.

Can you point out an example of where there were 10 different "9mm v. 45ACP" threads going on in the same forum all on the same day and all on the first page?

I believe there is a significant difference between an oft-repeated topic that most of the old-timers are familiar with resurfacing regularly and the current immigration discussion.

If anything, I think the rule is pretty consistently applied. I can point you to several gun related examples of merged threads (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=191888) or "Duplicate. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=192397) Closed (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=192402)." threads regarding multiple topics within the last week.

If you see some inconsistencies, please point them out. You point out War on Terror threads; but as a mod I remember seeing quite a few of those closed or merged as well.

As long as the threads say civil, why not let people talk about what they want to talk about?

Well, it would be one thing if any of the existing threads showed signs of remaining civil; but in most of the cases here they weren't remaining civil. People were being downright nasty to each other and at the same time starting new threads that promised more of the same discussion at a record rate.

Lone_Gunman
April 2, 2006, 03:33 PM
No, I really am not going to sort through old threads to cite examples. I am not sure how I could even search for that if I wanted to. The next time I see it happen, I will let you know, if I remember though. As I said, it was my opinion, and I have not done a statistical analysis. Its just my perception based on reading stuff here at THR, but this thread would exists because some people feel that way.

But I would point out that while duplicate threads on other topics are usually merged, the illegal alien topics were simply closed. Why not just merge the illegal alien threads instead of close them?

Also, while all those threads dealt generally with illegal immigration, most of them dealt with some particular aspect of illegal immigration. Different points were being discussed under the same general topic of illegal immigration. Closing them because they were all the same topic is no more appropriate than closing, say, two 1911 threads that deal with different aspects of the 1911.

As I have said, I didn't mean to offend moderators, and my opinions are subjective perception. Discredit and/or marginalize as necessary. If y'all don't want illegal immigration discussed, just say so and ban it, and I will comply.

Jammer Six
April 2, 2006, 03:35 PM
Art, are you really claiming that you moderate offensive language?

R.H. Lee
April 2, 2006, 04:05 PM
First, the opening post would be a lot more coherent if the author used paragraphs. I got lost halfway through it.

Second, anyone claiming illegal immigration is not destructive to our country either isn't paying attention or has another agenda.

Third, everyone here keeps coming up with ideas about how to stop illegal immigration. Lack of ideas is not the problem. The problem is our (leaders) failure to acknowledge a problem and lack the will to do anything about it.

Fourth, we're getting exactly the country and the government we deserve because we lack the will the change it. We can cry on internet forums until hell freezes over and it won't change a thing. Fact is, we've already lost the culture war and now we're just along for the ride. A country's culture (and language) drive the political forces which govern its citizens.

Bartholomew Roberts
April 2, 2006, 04:06 PM
But I would point out that while duplicate threads on other topics are usually merged, the illegal alien topics were simply closed. Why not just merge the illegal alien threads instead of close them?

Actually, that was suggested by one of the mods after several threads had already been closed and personally I think it would have been a great idea. After all, if all of them were related to civil liberties then they should have merged quite easily right?

On the other hand, we get paid to moderate what you get paid to read. Should it be our burden to go through existing threads and find where that new thread should have probably been posted and then take the time to merge the threads when the original poster couldn't be bothered to make that effort? That is really a courtesy from my perspective and as much as I might like to extend it; it becomes difficult to do when 10 different people all need that same thing.

Also, while all those threads dealt generally with illegal immigration, most of them dealt with some particular aspect of illegal immigration. Different points were being discussed under the same general topic of illegal immigration. Closing them because they were all the same topic is no more appropriate than closing, say, two 1911 threads that deal with different aspects of the 1911.

The only aspect of illegal immigration that belongs here is how it relates to civil liberties. I can buy that you might need more than one thread to explore that topic; but between five and ten on a single day?

The difference between 20 threads discussing 20 different aspects of a 1911 is that this is primarily a firearms forum, with the Legal & Political focusing on RKBA "and other civil liberties". The 1911 is why this forum exists. Immigration reform is not.

As I have said, I didn't mean to offend moderators, and my opinions are subjective perception. Discredit and/or marginalize as necessary.

I'm not offended and I am not trying to discredit or marginalize someone. It seems obvious to me that there is no favoritism here and that this is a pretty reasonable request. Obviously, not all the members see it the same way so I am just trying to listen and see why we are seeing things so differently here.

mordechaianiliewicz
April 2, 2006, 04:27 PM
I am against illegal immigration for three reasons:

#1: It drives wages down. Americans will do any job on the planet. But we would like to eat, feed our families, have a decent life, etc.

#2: The border is a flowing river. A river that anyone including terrorists could make it through.

#3: TANSTAAFL: Look at Cali right now. How much do social services cost? Homes? etc. Look at taxes and cost of living. Illegals who go to American Hospitals, illegallly use welfare, etc. endanger American citizens.

Unfortunately, (and it was posted earlier), the Republicans don't want to deal with this because they love Americans not getting decent wages. They have no concern for American worker's lives. And they are more than willing to risk national sovreingnty for a buck. As they prove every day longer we are in Iraq

The Democrats are arguably worse here. The illegals could become a wonderfull voting bloc for the Democratic Party, allowing legislation to get passed which wouldn't stand a snowball's chance without illegal (now magically legal) votes.

I'm all for legal immigration. I'm all for people with skills we can use living here, and helping to enrich America. But I am patently against illegal immigrants driving down wages, using American social, legal, medical rescources without paying for them, and I am also definitely against the more extreme amongst their # attempting a "reconquista."

This isn't like immigration from Europe (they were trying to become American, leaving bad circumstances and seeking not to be European anymore, but be American). Blacks who were forced here, and are too far removed from Africa to ever go back as more than a visit, and who's decendents have assimilated into society.

Mexico lies across our border, Mexicans are coming here to do cheap labor at the behest of American business interests. Many don't even stay. But they take a job from an American every time. (and many do stay)

Once here, they don't learn our language, and at border towns, often you can go through 3-4 generations of Mexicans who happen to live in America. Unfortunately, that situation rises a little further every year.

Kodiaz said before, the people they will elect will be Socialists masquerading as Democrats. Where will our gun rights be then?

Sealing our border and forcing the Mexican government to deal with the problems which arise from the social inequalities it has created is the only answer.

John3-16
April 2, 2006, 04:36 PM
As you can tell by the no. of my posts I try to not say to much.I am 65 years old I have lived 60 of those years among these socalled illegal aliens aka criminals . I for one am tired of rolling over and taking it up the south end for these poor-mistreted-lazy-goodfornoting-dregs of the world.if this makes me racist then racist I am:cuss:

NukemJim
April 2, 2006, 04:51 PM
Then, we have a duty to conduct our dialogue, discourse and debate this and all topics in a logical, sensible and knowdlege based manner.


Agreed, but that word sensible kinda makes me worried. You know like "Sensible gun control". Sensible is one of those words that can mean many things.

decisions will have to be made, some even not to your liking

Just a little puzzled here how do you know my liking or not and I think that perhaps considering how many people we have on THR that there is a very wide range of likes and dislikes.

"whatever results will be a matter of communication, followed by compromise,"

Ah yes compromise, If someone comes up to me and tells me I must give him the money in my wallet should I discuss it with him and reach a compromise position with him taking only half of my money ? To me not all things in life are a compromise. Perhaps I am wrong.

"Life is 10% what you know and 90% how you react to it"

I am afraid I ahve never heard this saying before nor do I see its veracity. Do you choose your physcian by how they react instead of what they know?:confused:

"The fact is illegal immigrants come to the U.S. because it is the land of economic opportunity, period"

I'm sorry but I must ask how you came to that point of view ? Last I heard
there were over 10,000,000 Illegal Aliens in the US. Do you have contact with all of them to know why they came here? Many people have come to the US for Political Aslyum. Making statements that cannot be proved correct and can be proven incorrect is not "logical, sensible and knowledge based" at least from my point of view.

"Not, and i repeat NOT!!! because the U.S.A. is some kind of moral, social, cultural or political Utopia."

And this relates to the debate exactly how ?:confused: Oh, and who claimed the US is any kind of utopia ?


"i tried to be clear and concise"

I am sorry but in my humble opinoin you have failed. NOT due to spelling or grammatical mistake. My writing skills are not good either. You have failed due to logical errors, assumptions that are not proven and possibly ( I do not presume to know you ) being too close and having a biased viewpoint.

I would like to have a logical, sensible and knowledgeble thread on immigration here on THR.

NukemJim

Gray Peterson
April 2, 2006, 05:09 PM
Isn't this a good thing to put on APS?

Jammer Six
April 2, 2006, 05:16 PM
#1: It drives wages down. Americans will do any job on the planet. But we would like to eat, feed our families, have a decent life, etc.
It doesn't drive wages down. Supply and demand drives wages.

It isn't your job, it's a job.

The moment someone agrees to do a $30 an hour job for $20 an hour, it is no longer a $30 an hour job. It doesn't matter who the people are, it doesn't matter where they come from.

The balance an employer juggles is pure production- it can be a much better deal to pay the $30 an hour. It comes down to square feet per dollar of wage/benefit.

The only way you feed your family is to be the best deal going. The only way you keep your wage high is to keep your production per hour higher than the competition.

I fired an American foreman when I caught him sleeping in his car, and replaced him with a Mexican. The Mexican produces more per hour than the American, and he doesn't snore while he's doing it.

There is no entitlement- you're not entitled to a high wage just because you're an American.

You're only entitled to a good living if you EARN it.

What we need now is someone to rant about socialism and illegal immigrants in the same post...

:cool:

Biker
April 2, 2006, 05:21 PM
MmmmmmmKAY! Lesson one; Trollish behavior is just that - with some effort, we can ignore certain folks who have a black belt in elicting responses that result in a thread being shut down.
*You can do it Biker, you can do it*
Biker;)

DRZinn
April 2, 2006, 05:27 PM
What we need now is someone to rant about socialism and illegal immigrants in the same post...I'll do that. Socialism is the only reason the illegals are such a problem. If we would stop the handouts (to ours and to theirs), it would no longer matter. Our current welfare dependents would be competing with the illegals for the unskilled jobs, which would keep prices low, and our taxes even lower.

Prices would go up slightly, because the low-wage earners would no longer be subsidized by the government, but we'd all have more money available to pay the higher prices, so it'd be a wash.

See how simple it can be, if we just LET THE FREE MARKET WORK?

Lone_Gunman
April 2, 2006, 05:29 PM
The moment someone agrees to do a $30 an hour job for $20 an hour, it is no longer a $30 an hour job. It doesn't matter who the people are, it doesn't matter where they come from.


Jammer, that is not really an accurate statement. Back 50+ years ago, there were attempts by prison reformers to put prisoners to work doing various jobs that previously had been done by free men trying to make a living. The people running the prison work programs undercut the free workers because they had a supply of free labor.

The same situation basically is what we have with the illegals. They unfairly compete with law-abiding citizens by not paying taxes, contributing to social security etc. They are breaking the law by not doing these things.

If US citizens did the same thing, they would be put in jail for tax evasion.

U. S. citizens have to be paid more to end up with the same amount of money after taxes. The playin field is not level.

I like to think of America as the life-boat of the world. Sooner or later, that life-boat is going to get full. Add people after that, and we risk capsizing. We can deal with that problem now, before that happens, or we can all go down later.

I paid about 40 percent of my salary last year in taxes of one kind or another. That means an illegal alien could come over and offer to do my job for 60 percent of what I charge. There is no way to compete because the rules are different.

Jammer Six
April 2, 2006, 05:42 PM
The same situation basically is what we have with the illegals. They unfairly compete with law-abiding citizens by not paying taxes, contributing to social security etc. They are breaking the law by not doing these things.
Here's your error.

This statement is only true part of the time. I have no idea how big that part is, and neither does anyone else. It is, therefore, a siren song for the disenfranchised, the frightened, and the weak. It is irresistible. It is unknowable, unprovable, and all the better for those purposes because of that.

Many immigrants are union members, and pay full taxes, whether or not they ever take advantage of the benefits.

Free money.

The politicians know this.

I paid about 40 percent of my salary last year in taxes of one kind or another. That means an illegal alien could come over and offer to do my job for 60 percent of what I charge. There is no way to compete because the rules are different.

However, an immigrant who pays the same taxes, and simply takes home less money is simply taking home less money. He or she wins that competition, assuming that production is close. There again, if your production is higher, you win, and it doesn't matter how much more you cost, if the production is there. And in that case, our nation comes out WAY ahead- they get the taxes, without the accountability, and without the cost that the illegal immigrant never takes advantage of.

The only job security is production.

I believe that all of you against immigration should report immediately to the Arizona, Texas and California borders, to patrol those borders, build walls, and shout at the dessert with bullhorns.

Those of you who see the future, the debate is in Washington, D.C.

We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border. :cool:

Waitone
April 2, 2006, 05:53 PM
Mod, yer doin' goood! Keeping THR on the HR ain't easy but you're pulling it off with flair.:D

wingman
April 2, 2006, 05:57 PM
Some of this discussion stems from overall changes in life in america due to morals, standards. What and how far will someone go to make a profit, is all profit good for the country regardless how it is acquired.

Do you hire an illegal at 6 bucks an hour if you can employ a citizen at $10 and still have a profit. If a corporation is making 10mil a year and doing great should they fire all workers and move their company to China to increase
Revenue to 15 million. (please these figures are for reference only.)

I believe at one time most companies/people considered such issues now we live in a different world and the bottom line is king.

Morals/standards, even capitalism can fail without it.

RealGun
April 2, 2006, 06:01 PM
Debating illegal immigration within this particular thread is off topic. Check the original post.

Biker
April 2, 2006, 06:25 PM
I don't understand - if it distresses you to read threads concerning this topic, why do you do it and then complain both publicly and to the mods?
I don't get it.
Biker

seeker_two
April 2, 2006, 06:49 PM
With all due respect, cz75bdneos22, going gently into that good night with you is not the answer....


...for myself and those who still care about this country, this Constitution, and this way of life---we'll continue to rage against the dying of the light... :cool:


Now, why don't we abandon all pretenses here & make JammerSix an official moderator?.... :rolleyes:

WayneConrad
April 2, 2006, 06:56 PM
Odds are the mods aren't closing this very off-topic thread because they don't want to be accused of silencing criticism.

What a bind to put 'em in.

RealGun
April 2, 2006, 07:15 PM
I don't understand - if it distresses you to read threads concerning this topic, why do you do it and then complain both publicly and to the mods?
I don't get it. - Biker

Your inference is your own. You wouldn't know when or if I report a thread.

I have no problem reading threads, except that I don't appreciate opening a new thread with an uninformative title and finding it off topic. I don't prefer chaos and incivility and believe we should abide by forum guidelines with some reasonable sense of what is appropriate.

Personally, I think illegal immigration relates to civil liberties by the thinnest of connections. It is really just a rationale to allow discussing whatever anyone feels like discussing. Nonsense. I can find this stuff anywhere. It is in fact used to beat up on the government and to propose that looney third parties have a better idea and a prayer of getting a candidate elected. Much of the rest becomes garbage and sound bites posted by political punks with nothing positive to say about anything or anyone. The High Road used to be much higher.

Biker
April 2, 2006, 07:20 PM
I know more than you think.;)
In any case, the thread title tells you what you need to know the vast majority of the time. It really is a matter of choice - you don't have to read the thing and you don't have to whine about it if you don't read it.
Lord, seems simple to me.
Biker

RealGun
April 2, 2006, 07:28 PM
In any case, the thread title tells you what you need to know the vast majority of the time. It really is a matter of choice - you don't have to read the thing and you don't have to whine about it if you don't read it. - Biker

That has nothing to do with this thread. I see you often carrying a chip from one thread to another. Quite the sniper.

Biker
April 2, 2006, 07:32 PM
I don't know what you mean Friend, but I believe that I'll avoid getting personal with you.
In any case, if a guy doesn't like the subject matter of a thread, it seems logical to avoid it.
JMO...
Biker

TexasRifleman
April 2, 2006, 07:34 PM
In any case, if a guy doesn't like the subject matter of a thread, it seems logical to avoid it.
JMO...

How dare you make a reasonable and well thought out post. What is wrong with you? :evil:

grampster
April 2, 2006, 07:44 PM
I read a few posts, then skipped around. Sorry if what I have to say is redundant.

THR is primarily about firearms and firearm related issues. Sometimes it is a stretch to get into certain conversations and keep in on THR, gun oriented.

That is why we have APS Roundtable. Why don't more of you come on over to APS where just about anything is on topic as long as it is done in a civil matter.

Arguments should have points that are valid and meaningful; not hysterical rants, so keep that in mind.

RealGun
April 2, 2006, 07:45 PM
What many others are talking about is how threads get spoiled and ultimately closed. A big one is straying off the topic or making it about several topics. I think we each have an obligation to stick to the subject. This particular thread is not just another illegal alien thread, and I chose to point that out.

TexasRifleman
April 2, 2006, 07:52 PM
That is why we have APS Roundtable. Why don't more of you come on over to APS where just about anything is on topic as long as it is done in a civil matter.

Well, I check into APS before posting here, just for that reason.

Turns out APS has no current threads on this, it's got some off the wall topics no doubt but for the most part there are few "serious" threads over there.

Right now the top 3 threads I see are about

1) how to ask someone on a date
2) Some kind of "witch" thread
3) Someone "pimping" their car

pax
April 2, 2006, 07:55 PM
WayneConrad ~

Very astute comment.

pax

Gadsden
April 2, 2006, 08:24 PM
I came here thinking that this was a friendly forum where I could post and read posts without the discussion degenerating into name calling and political ideology battles. Yes, I have very strong views about immigration, politics and politicians. Who doesn't? But please let's keep this a discussion. Name calling is certainly not going to change my views on anything. Will it change yours?

pete f
April 2, 2006, 08:25 PM
This is a crummy issue to get upset at each other over.

I will not further make statements on this subject because i have said my piece and anything more is repetitive.

The name of the forun is the THE HIGH ROAD> that means debating issues in points of FACT and not EMOTIONS> without resorting to emotional outbursts or personal slander. It is very possible to debate an issue on merit and fact without sorting to "you moron", it really is.

Grow up name callers, If you must issue attacks, do so via PM and allow yourselves to discuss it there. there is no need to call someone a "stupid jack@$$ if you do not understand my point."


and so in parting, If you do not agree with me, meet me on the corner of fifth and main, and we will discuss it like men. (sarcasm off)

longeyes
April 2, 2006, 08:34 PM
The bottom-line here is that quite a few of us want to talk about the problem of illegal immigration and we'd prefer to do that here. Maybe we're venting--God forbid--and maybe we're seeing what other people think and maybe we're sharpening our thoughts and arguments. Whatever we're doing we're not retarding western civilization by chewing over an extremely important subject. A group of members--I believe a relatively small number--seems to have trouble with that free expression of interest. Now, of course, they could just skip that thread but for some reason they won't. They are curiously drawn to these threads so, forgive my bluntness, they can report being offended and run to the mods for protection. To me this is more "middle school" than "high road," but that's just me.

Hollowdweller
April 2, 2006, 08:40 PM
I am a liberal democrat and I think that the laws against illegal immigration should be enforced.

There is no way the government can provide any sort of a social safety net when you are getting in so many low wage workers. Also going back to President Bush and the conservative view where he wants everyone to be responsible for saving for their own retirement, medical savings accounts, paying for their own education, and other things of that nature, how can you expect people to save money back for these things when illegals are depressing the salaries?

I would like to see businesses prosecuted for hiring them and some real enforcement against those who HIRE them.

If I heard correctly only 2? businesses last year were prosecuted for hiring illegals? Also I heard Mexico is very strict on their Southern border because they don't want people depressint their wages. :neener:

CAnnoneer
April 2, 2006, 08:42 PM
We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border.

Jammer, you keep repeating this, but you keep omitting to answer the two simple questions:

1) Who exactly is "we"? Aliens? Criminal employers?
2) Assuming you are right, would't "you" be even stronger with 100 million foreigners? 200 million? Wouldn't "you" be strongest when the entire Turd World moves into the US?

Please be so kind to address the implications of your assertions.

longeyes
April 2, 2006, 08:53 PM
And about that socialism-illegal alien connection...

Yeah, it's real. Bring in another fifty to a hundred million illegals, give them legitimacy, and you will see the social welfare establishment become America's number one industry (right up until The Crash). Give them suffrage and you will see socialism welcomed in perpetuity (perpetuity defined as, well, not all that long, I'm afraid). Constitutional democracy and free market capitalism depend on a set of social, moral, and cultural values that The Rulers are hell-bent on destroying.

pax
April 2, 2006, 08:54 PM
... They are curiously drawn to these threads so, forgive my bluntness, they can report being offended and run to the mods for protection.
Of course, if no one hits "report this post," the moderators will never even see misbehavior, right? Nope. We'll see it -- eventually. You may not know about it when we do, though, because we usually work behind the scenes to get the member to play nicely, or if the behavior is bad enough, we simply kick them off the playground.

When someone hits "report this post," all that happens is that the moderators read the thread a bit earlier than we otherwise would have. Then we make, earlier, whatever decisions we would have made, later, when we came across the thread on our own.

Believe me, "report this post" does NOT dictate what moderators do or do not do to help keep THR a pleasant place to visit. It certainly doesn't mean that we have to do whatever the complainer said!

Reporting posts helps keep THR a pleasant place to visit because it helps us know which threads need to be read first when we come online, that's all. Since none of the volunteers who run this place have unlimited time to spend online, we appreciate it when folks don't respond to offensive stuff and instead simply point the direction we should look first when we get here.

For your meta-point, that some folks are provacateurs and "make" threads get closed because everyone gets so mad at them and starts throwing insults at them, I just have to say that if you're worried that the mods might come down on you because of the way you post in response to a provacateur, you probably should not post until you've cooled off. Certainly you cannot blame someone else for what you yourself write.

Even if they tell us about it.

pax

Geno
April 2, 2006, 09:32 PM
I met my Latin goddess in the winter of 1978, when I was a high school junior studying Spanish. She was a Chilean exchange student. Speechless is about all I recall when I first saw her!

I corresponded for 6 years as I completed high school then college. In 1983, I decided to terminate a dead-end relationship with an unworthy girlfriend. I made plans to have my now wife enter the country legally, reside with friends while I dated her, and finally to wed.

Well, the government would have not part of it. We made repeated applications, state-side and in Chile. Here is the kicker—the reason they did not want to grant her a visa—“We’re concerned that she won’t return to Chile after 1 year; most Chilean women end up staying.” I asked, “Well, no isn’t that the basic idea of dating to assure compatibility?” Still, the answer was no.

Finally, following nearly 18 months of ignorance on the part of our government officials, in shear exasperation, I called the Embassy and asked for a line-item set of expectations of what I needed to do. When the same ridiculous statements statrted all over again, I retorted to the U.S. Embassy worker in Chile, “What the H--- do I have to do, fly to Chile and marry her there?!” To which the Embassy worker responded, “That would simplify matters greatly.” Within a month, I was in Chile, married and heading back in the U.S. My new bride had to wait for her papers.

About a month after I left to come back to the U.S., she went to the Embassy, for her visa. She did not know that she would need many “proofs”. She needed to have proof of me having a full-time contract. She didn’t because I had none. She needed proof of me having health insurance. She didn’t, because I had none. She needed proof of me having some amount of money in a bank account. She didn’t, because I none. The Embassy employee smiled and said, “That okay. If he flew all the way here to marry you, he’ll darned sure take care of you!”

She arrived to America in February, 1985, not speaking a word of English. She enrolled in English classes, and became a Spanish/English teacher. She completed her studies on a full ride due to her grades. She completed her M.A. in Educational Administration on a full-ride due to grades, and the same for her doctoral studies at MSU.

Fast forward 22 years. My Latina is still my Sra. We flew back to Chile this past year to renew our wedding vows. Our daughter (LilSureShot1994) was the flower girl. Guess the Embassy worker was right, those Chilean women do stay—we’ve stayed together for over 22 years.

God bless America, and God bless the woman who immigrated legally to America, giving me a wonderful family, becoming a productive citizen, becoming a certified teacher, and educating American children.

I’m glad WE did it the LEGAL way.

Doc2005

dzimmerm
April 2, 2006, 11:27 PM
I see the topic of illegal immigrants often brings up the point that they are not paying taxes because they are being paid under the table.

I mentioned a possible remedy for this by instituting a consumption tax. A consumption tax would not only allow money to be collected from illegal immigrants, it would also allow money to be collected from other criminals that do not pay income taxes.

The last time I mentioned this no one responded.

I thought it was a positive idea to part of a problem.

Why did no one respond to it?

dzimmerm

TexasRifleman
April 2, 2006, 11:56 PM
Why did no one respond to it?

I guess I don't completely understand it. Do you mean something like a VAT (value added tax)?

roo_ster
April 3, 2006, 12:46 AM
When folks have the bread taken from their kid's mouths, they tend to get a mite testy.

American taxpayers unlucky enough to live near illegal aliens sucking up medical, ed, & other taxpayer-funded goodies get cranky when their property tax bill is 25%-35% larger than it would be in the absence of illegal aliens. For that kind of cheese, a home owner could send their kid to private school.

American employers whose marginal business models rely on illegal alien labor are especially perturbed when their source of cheaper labor is threatened when all their taxpaying neighbors start making noise about the illegal alien costs to taxpayers. The difference in costs of illegal/legal labor means their business is viable and they can pay their mortgage or their kids' braces.

Illegal aliens get all bent outta shape because the USA is their only hope for rising out of the cess pool that is Mexico, getting their kids an education & decent medical care, and sending money back home to their extended families.

I'm in the first category and would gladly send all illegals back home and send their employers to the pokey.

TX35
April 3, 2006, 12:51 AM
My simplest reply is MS-13. Over 60% of this gang are Illegals, & in LA alone in 2005, they were the perps in over 5,000 crimes. (special in Natl. Geo. tonight)

longeyes
April 3, 2006, 12:52 AM
When folks have the bread taken from their kid's mouths, they tend to get a mite testy.

Amen to that. We can sit around feeling warm and fuzzy because 80 per cent of states allow CCW. We need to take the longer view, understanding the culture in which RKBA exists and what its future is. That is why issues like illegal immigration are vitally important. RKBA does not exist in a philosophical vacuum, as some kind of inviolable Platonic Idea. In the end we will doubtless have to fight to preserve it, as we will doubtless have to fight to preserve the legacy of the Founding Fathers, "those dead Anglos who loved slavery and stole the land."

Jammer Six
April 3, 2006, 12:57 AM
When folks have the bread taken from their kid's mouths, they tend to get a mite testy.
When, however, they give it away, I leave it to them to explain hunger to their kids.

antarti
April 3, 2006, 01:07 AM
When folks have the bread taken from their kid's mouths, they tend to get a mite testy.

Amen to that. We can sit around feeling warm and fuzzy because 80 per cent of states allow CCW. We need to take the longer view, understanding the culture in which RKBA exists and what its future is. That is why issues like illegal immigration are vitally important. RKBA does not exist in a philosophical vacuum, as some kind of inviolable Platonic Idea. In the end we will doubtless have to fight to preserve it, as we will doubtless have to fight to preserve the legacy of the Founding Fathers, "those dead Anglos who loved slavery and stole the land."

When I first started reading this thread I couldn't believe what a mess it was, but it must be true that "Out of Chaos comes Order", because this (civil) exchange sure hit the center of the bullseye.

longeyes
April 3, 2006, 01:35 AM
When, however, they give it away, I leave it to them to explain hunger to their kids.

And therein lies the crux of the political problem today: "They" didn't give it away, their so-called political representatives did, and continue to. That's exactly why we are approaching a crisis that will shake this Republic to its foundations.

dzimmerm
April 3, 2006, 01:42 AM
A consumption tax is a proposed way of collecting revenue that replaces the income tax.

It is commonaly called a sales tax.

The idea is, you tax folks when they purchase an item, not when they earn their income.

A federal sales tax that replaces the federal income tax would use the same mechanisms that are currently in place for state/county/city sales taxes.

The reason I mentioned this is illegal immigrants living in the USA would need to buy food, clothing, automobiles, phone service, ect. When they purchased these items they would be paying the federal sales tax if one existed.

This would remove one complaint about illegal immigrants not supporting the system they are using.

I realize this would not address the issue of breaking the law but it does address the issue of overburdened infrastructure.

dzimmerm

F4GIB
April 3, 2006, 02:26 AM
[quote]I don't buy into the argument that "illegals" do the work that many Americans won't do.[/b]

Americans and legal immigrants WILL do these jobs at the right pay.
It is big business (and especially agribusiness) that doesn't want to pay what it takes to get Americans to do the work. Every single unpleasent, hard, dirty job was done be Americans in the 1950's (my first job was field laborer at $1.00 per hour, today I make well into six figures) and would be today IF the price was right. It's lack of attractive wages not lack of Americans to do the job.

Art Eatman
April 3, 2006, 02:53 AM
"It is big business (and especially agribusiness) that doesn't want to pay what it takes to get Americans to do the work."

If labor costs go beyond some point in terms of dollars per hour (+ benefits), profitability goes away. Think "Delphi" and "GM". Average union pay at Delphi is $26.40 an hour, plus medical care and retirement. For GM, the union retirement benefits are breaking the corporation.

141 million in the workforce. On-farm labor is some 2.7% of that (3.8 million, nationwide), which includes owners in residence as well as hired hands. Given the amount of mechanization, illegals are a small portion of that segment of the workforce.

Illegals are some 30% of homebuilding workers. The majority are employed in the food-service business. Of the remainder, a large percentage are working in small-business services; yeah, the lawn-care stuff, among other things.

Art

280PLUS
April 3, 2006, 08:18 AM
Well, I can only get this far this morning:

Turns out APS has no current threads on this, it's got some off the wall topics no doubt but for the most part there are few "serious" threads over there.

So, by ALL MEANS, go over there and start one. Most of us there are posting stuff just so the place ain't dead. You want serious off topic discussion? Take yourselves there and strike it up. Go over and see how many members there are. Pitiful. I'll be happy to put in my 2 cents on illegal immigration. But not here. Work with your Mods. Take the off topic crap over to APS. That's all they've been asking for months now.

Oh, and we have had some serious discussion over there. Don't worry.

I'm sitting back, reading the description of this forum as per a followup to my first comment and I'm still trying to fathom how this topic fits here.

I'll be over at APS on and off. Waiting to discuss illegal immigration.

Have a nice day...

:D

Spiphel Rike
April 3, 2006, 08:34 AM
How about you guys swap income taxes for a VAT?
That is, pay the tax when you buy things, that way the illegals would lose money to taxes as well. Obviously there are many items that should not be taxed, and there would of course be a big fight to keep the Value Added Tax off firearms and ammunition.

eliminate welfare, change the tax system and presto, that's it.

Can'thavenuthingood
April 3, 2006, 10:06 AM
You have the Fair Tax in mind. Rather than a Value Added Tax (VAT) it's a sales or consumption tax. Its only charged on NEW items so everyone pays. Also there is a threshold where the poor are rebated. This idea has gained many supporters and is a good idea as it does away with the IRS. I'm hoping the BATF&E will be similairly affected.

Vick

http://fairtax.org/

The FairTax was designed by a team of respected economists to replace the income tax and all other federal taxes with a national consumption tax. The FairTax is levied only once, at the point of purchase on new goods and services. The simplicity of the FairTax frees Americans from our current overwhelming tax code and unshackles the U.S. economy.


The FairTax:
Abolishes the IRS
Closes all tax loopholes and brings fairness to taxation
Maintains our current Social Security and Medicare benefits
Brings transparency and accountability to tax policy
Allows American products to compete fairly
Reimburses the tax on purchases of basic necessities
Enables retirees to keep their entire pension
Enables workers to keep their entire paycheck

BigFatKen
April 3, 2006, 11:20 AM
#18
hillbilly
Senior Member
Oh yeah...un-High-Roadish...

You mean like immediately locking a thread wherein all I posted was a link to a Reconquista web site wherein a group of protestors took photos of themselves expressing their real beliefs in the streets of Dallas?


A month ago we had one of our "monthly visitors" at 10:52 am CST. He included links to those who wear bed sheets and burn things on front lawns. One was to Dav1d duck dot kom. I mispelled this as the "web bots" from Google look for these links and put a high value on links.

The Mods shut it down in under 5 minutes. Great work. If we allow any links to a site that has any ratical links, we allow ourselves to become like them in the computerized world we live in today.

RealGun
April 3, 2006, 11:42 AM
This thread should be shut down because it has become about several topics and because posters are not using any discipline. The thread is not about illegal immigration except by anarchy.

Lone_Gunman
April 3, 2006, 01:02 PM
Real Gun, aren't you adding yet another topic by trying to discuss shutting this thread down?

This thread should stay open, because it is discussing several different aspects of how illegal immigration affect our country and civil rights.

wingman
April 3, 2006, 01:11 PM
If labor costs go beyond some point in terms of dollars per hour (+ benefits), profitability goes away. Think "Delphi" and "GM". Average union pay at Delphi is $26.40 an hour, plus medical care and retirement. For GM, the union retirement benefits are breaking the corporation.


Some blame here on both sides Art, large corporation want bigger returns on there investments, huge over payments to ceo's, etc. Greed swings an ugly path. Overhaul concern of what is good for America went out the door with most large corporation long ago. In my opinion it will end bad. Everything needs and demands balance perhaps with standards or common sense but it appears to be lost.

CAnnoneer
April 3, 2006, 01:17 PM
A thread should be shut down whenever it does not go my way.

seeker_two
April 3, 2006, 01:22 PM
A thread should be closed when there's not enough cheese to serve with the "whine" provided.... :p

RealGun
April 3, 2006, 01:58 PM
A thread should be shut down whenever it does not go my way.

When off topic or an undisciplined mess, that becomes a moot point. Being a cyberpunk is self defeating.

Biker
April 3, 2006, 02:03 PM
I'll repeat my question; If you already *know* that the thread content offends you, why continue to make a concious effort to *click* on it, then complain both publically and to the mods?
Wouldn't it be better for you to avoid the aggravation and go to another thread?
An honest and fair question...
Biker

RealGun
April 3, 2006, 02:12 PM
I am expressing support for closing the thread, because mods will be blamed for it by the anarchists.

dmallind
April 3, 2006, 02:16 PM
Well let's see if I can address a couple of the issues:

I'm a legal immigrant. I jumped through all the hoops and waited a couple years and all that, but the thing some people are missing is that I could. You see I got here the same way Doc's wife (great story BTW) got here - by marrying a citizen. I shouldn't have to spell this out, but in case this causes suspicion be assured it was marrying the American that was important, not the access to this country that it coincidentally provided. As a matter of fact there was quite lengthy discussion on which country we should live in.

Now that's one way of getting here. It's a pretty restrictive way as Doc's story shows. Not only did I have to pass health, background and employability tests, but we had to establish the ability of my wife to support me for a minimum of two years (during which time I was barred from being a "public charge" by receiving any benefits - fair enough) and undergo extensive and long-lasting scrutiny once I was here to make sure this was a legitimate marriage.

What some people don't realize is the other ways are similarly restrictive. They are:

1 - Be rich enough to support yourself for life
2 - Have extremely impressive credentials in a very limited number of high-demand low-supply professions such as nursing or advanced science
3 - Be a political refugee from true oppression

So there IS NO legal way any more for the Mexican laborers and Guatamalan nannies to get here, and yet there is nowhere near enough people willing to do those jobs for feasible pay. Try advertising a $9 an hour job and see what applicants you get. Try advertising a backbreaking smelly unsafe job for any realistic pay and see what applicants you get. What SHOULD a meatpacker get paid? What is the skill level required to do the job? Should a meatpacker be paid more than a dentist? An engineer? What would it take to get YOU to do that job? This is not the same as when the Irish and Italians came and the country accepted anyone who was not contagious, insane or TOO criminal.

Bear in mind low cost labor helps to keep all kinds of jobs. If the total cost of running a business in the US becomes prohibitive it's not just the laborers who lose their jobs, but the accountants, manufacturing engineers, QA guys and so on who are almost never illegals. Have to pay meatpackers enough to get 100% anglo citizen labor and you can kiss those jobs goodbye too - it will be cheaper to operate the plants in Mexico and expedite the freight to reach US markets. The GM example given above is very true - GM cannot sell their cars for enough to allow them to pay their inflated labor costs, and so what happens? Market share, and overall payroll, drops like a rock. Want that to happen to other industries?

Many people are applying micro criteria to a macro issue. Immigration, both legal and illegal, is running very high, correct? Then if immigration destroys the job market and kills the economy why do we have unemployment close to a modern-era low (beaten only by the mid to late 90s when immigration was also high) and consistent if moderate GDP growth?

Ezekiel
April 3, 2006, 02:22 PM
Of course, concern about a radical group of foreign nationals inside the country whose blatantly-expressed goal is to transform a part of this country into some other country has nothing, and I mean nothing to do with "civil rights" in the US.....

"Standard Operating Procedure since 1492." Why get upset now?

To be as draconian as possible, immigration without assimilation creates a completely new culture. While I'm not entirely certain such is a bad thing -- hardcore capitalist imperialism certainly annoys me -- I definitely do not wish to be on the front line as it occurs. :scrutiny:

I, also, cannot think of any better form of governemnt that functions anywhere beyond a textbook.

I'm just concerned when the "solution" becomes a greater hinderance then the "problem." We (Americans) do that a lot.

longeyes
April 3, 2006, 02:24 PM
When off topic or an undisciplined mess, that becomes a moot point. Being a cyberpunk is self defeating.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: We have a few on this forum who feel compelled to run for the front office every time a topic makes them uncomfortable. You have to wonder why they can't deal with other people's opinions without panicking. You don't like the subject of a thread, pass on, horseman.

The unions are definitely part of the bigger problem. They will have played a key role in driving GM and Ford into Chapter XI (if that happens). The unions are corralling all the illegal aliens they can into their fold; they know union power has been on the wane for a long time. This is their chance for a come-back, they believe. What we saw last weekend was essentially a socialist worker movement rally, writ large.

We need some realistic data on what jobs could even potentially fit into a "guest worker" program. Although I basically oppose the idea without first seeing serious enforcement of border controls, I could tolerate a modest temporary worker program. What's being proposed, though, legitimizes many millions of workers right now who have jobs that Americans could certainly do, and it opens the door for huge numbers more every year.

How many NEW farm workers are we supposed to admit every year? What kind of nonsense is this?

I am really, really tired of hearing people in the media talk about how "we are not going to deport X million people." Well, if that's so, and the borders are open, expect to lose your country. The "critical mass" isn't shrinking, it's growing; the problem will only get worse.

I have little or no faith in the assimilation process at this stage. The socialist agenda was and is anti-assimilation.

longeyes
April 3, 2006, 02:32 PM
So there IS NO legal way any more for the Mexican laborers and Guatamalan nannies to get here, and yet there is nowhere near enough people willing to do those jobs for feasible pay. Try advertising a $9 an hour job and see what applicants you get. Try advertising a backbreaking smelly unsafe job for any realistic pay and see what applicants you get. What SHOULD a meatpacker get paid? What is the skill level required to do the job? Should a meatpacker be paid more than a dentist? An engineer? What would it take to get YOU to do that job? This is not the same as when the Irish and Italians came and the country accepted anyone who was not contagious, insane or TOO criminal.

What is the skill level required to be a Congressclown who sells out his country? What is the skill level required to be a currency trader who has no scruples about destroying another nation's money? What is the skill level required to be a corporate chief who takes huge bonuses while managing his company into bankruptcy and perhaps malfeasance?

Maybe we need more and better paid blue-collar workers and fewer people in cubicles? Would that the blue-collar workers were Americans and respected. I don't see very many blue-collar workers in Congress, oddly enough. Don't tell me it's because they aren't smart enough to figure out how to spend more than they take in.

DRZinn
April 3, 2006, 02:53 PM
How many people are supported by welfare, again?

dmallind
April 3, 2006, 02:59 PM
The answer's simple - to do those jobs you have to convince enough people you can. The smartest people are not necessarily the ones in Congress or the corner office, but they are usually the most charming, most charismatic, most convincing, or some combination of those three. That's an inevitable outcome of a plebiscite-based governbment in the former case. If more charming, charismatic and convincing blue collar folks decided to run for congress and put in the party (any party) time required to do so, they'd probably do just as well as equivalently charming, charismatic and convincing blue-bloods. Perhaps even better as they could play up their populist credentials with the still mostly blue collar electorate. I certainly will not say that would be a bad thing, although frankly I doubt it would make much difference once elected. There is nothing magically enlightening or ennobling about manual labor any more than there is anything limiting or degrading about it. I've done plenty of it, and I was no better or worse a person then than I am now when my calluses are gone except on my pen fingers.

Labor, like it or not, is priced like any other good in that it sells for the rate at which enough people are willing to sell. Labor, absent unions perhaps but certainly including executive labor, is priced more than anything in an inverse relationship with the number of people perceived to be capable of doing it. Exceptions occur such as in "prestige" or "vocational" jobs such as elite military groups where very very few people are capable of doing them, but the pride and vocation attracts people more than the money. These are exceptions though. Doctors are paid a lot because it's hard to graduate from medical school and even harder to get in - there aren't many people who can do either. Engineers likewise, although in most cases slightly less pay and slightly more people capable of that route. Accountants? Same but again less pay and more people capable of that academic route. Meatpacking? Sure it's a skill, and sure it requires a premium because of the conditions and risks, but because the perception, fair or not but very real, is that almost anybody with a strong back and a strong stomach can learn to be a meatpacker in some moderate amount of on the job training, it will never be a highly paid job. Remember to be economically viable, labor cannot cost more than the value it provides to teh buyer of that labor (employer). How much can Hormel sell Spam for (in other words what is the perceived value of that product to THEIR customers) and how much does that mean they can value, and pay, their meatpackers?

Academic success is not the ONLY route to high pay. Consider what a highly skilled mechanic or plumber makes - often more than many of the well-educated, and quite probably deservedly so. I know for sure I don't have the skills or training to fix my car engine, so I pay a guy about the same hourly rate I get with my master's degree and solid history of saving companies large amounts of money. I don't begrudge the mechanic that either, but I would begrudge paying a fruitpicker or chambermaid that rate, as would the market for their services. The fact is the number of native born who are willing to be chambermaids and fruitpickers for the market value of those psoitions is insufficient to meet demand for that labor. You can't pay $30 an hour for a job that adds $10 of value per hour to your product.

308win
April 3, 2006, 03:38 PM
Doctors are paid a lot because it's hard to graduate from medical school and even harder to get in - there aren't many people who can do either.

Not necessarily, 50% of them graduate in the bottom half of their class.:D (Just a feeble attempt at some light humor; sorry.)

wingman
April 3, 2006, 03:54 PM
Maybe we need more and better paid blue-collar workers and fewer people in cubicles? Would that the blue-collar workers were Americans and respected. I don't see very many blue-collar workers in Congress,

Without manufacturing jobs the need for blue collar worker will be gone,
in time a degree will be needed to work at wal-mart.

Perhaps we need to change our flag, a big dollar sign in center with
for sale on top of course we could include stars in that.:rolleyes:

Colt
April 3, 2006, 04:23 PM
the Republicans don't want to deal with this because they love Americans not getting decent wages. They have no concern for American worker's lives. And they are more than willing to risk national sovreingnty for a buck. As they prove every day longer we are in Iraq

I wish you'd make up your mind about us evil Republicans.

We Republicans can either:

Love illegal immigrants because they're cheap labor for our puppy-to-oil conversion plants

-OR-

We can hate illegal immigrants because they drive up tax rates, which are necessary to fund useless social programs, i.e. money that we'd rather spend buying more oil.

One or the other, but it can't be both.

longeyes
April 3, 2006, 04:28 PM
Without manufacturing jobs the need for blue collar worker will be gone,
in time a degree will be needed to work at wal-mart.

Yes, and the degree won't be worth much, any more than a lot of degrees are worth now. I believe a lot of degree programs are just make-work for the academic welfare class.

Losing the manual trades is more than just an economic loss. America was built by tinkerers. Many great things came from people with manual arts and an imaginative brain. On THR we can appreciate the importance of hand-eye coordination but hand, eye, and brain have been the great triad of American innovation. You don't get that from video games. Are we now to outsource our iimagination and insource all manual skills?

longeyes
April 3, 2006, 04:34 PM
The idea that every American should go to college is another of the great myths perpetrated by the usual suspects. If we didn't demean manual labor as much as we do, secretly longing, some of us, to be European gentry, we wouldn't see the answer to our economic future in producing semi-literate "college" graduates who can barely answer a telephone, much less reason about political theory. One reason for the pervasive American unhappiness, part of the reason we are such compulsive debtors, is the feeling that so much of American work has become meaningless. I think this particularly afffects the American male...but that's a whole 'nuther can of worms.

Jammer Six
April 3, 2006, 05:02 PM
It's lack of attractive wages not lack of Americans to do the job.
Fallacy.

A popular fallacy, but a fallacy.

The carpenter foreman I replaced was a union member, the job was a union job, with full benefits.

I require carpenter foremen to get out of their car, and remain awake. I require journeymen to work even if they're cold.

The Mexicans I replaced them with did so, and production went through the roof. End of problem.

We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border. :cool:

MadMag
April 3, 2006, 05:20 PM
Quote: "Try advertising a $9 an hour job and see what applicants you get. Try advertising a backbreaking smelly unsafe job for any realistic pay and see what applicants you get".

Here goes the myth again. You would get one of my sons. He just started a job for $9 and hour and it is hard labor and dangerous.

Don’t try you impress me about working hard for low wages in tough jobs. I have been there & done that….also working 3rd shift swing shift, and even long periods of 12 on 12 off 7 days a week. Also, two jobs one staring a 6:30am and then other at 6pm.

People in the know understand that Americans work jobs just as hard, and dirty, and dangerous, and in many cases for same wages as Illegal Aliens.

Thin Black Line
April 3, 2006, 05:22 PM
This has been the Bush lackeys SOP (standard operating procedure) here for weeks whenever a thread doesn't go their way they start the 'this is off topic chant'.....Bush is a liberal please stop your cheerleading.....'This isn't on topic' is a sure sign that the apologists arguments have no weight.

+3 on all points. I've noticed that as well. Agree with the status quo and
the thread goes on; bring up points that effectively counter it and it
gets shut down. It's the equivalent of when the news channels turn off
a guest's mic or quickly cut away to something else in the middle of a
press conference when a reporter asks a tough question. A great example
was post-OJ when the video was cut on the DA as he made the comment
"And in this case Justice was not served...." (screen goes black). "We seem
to have lost our video connection."

I don't buy into the argument that "illegals" do the work that many Americans won't do.

+100. This is complete and utter propaganda being forced down our throats
by BOTH repubs and demos --one gets the cheap labor that can be used
to undercut your fellow citizens and the other gets their votes and excuse
for social programs that expand the nanny-state. The net effect is
eliminating the TRUE middle class in the USA.

Anyone catch the docu called "Rome: The Power and the Glory"? I highly
recommend this since it shows where the US has been and where it is
going. I found it ironic that Roman soldiers were sent to fight far-flung
wars to increase the empire, bring back material resources (and slaves)
and then found themselves returning "home" to their own land gobbled up by
patrons from the next villa over (who did NOT serve) and being tended by
the foreigners (slaves) they had sent back to the empire while they were still
away on the campaign.

Think it through, people, we're being sold out with cheap labor at home,
cheap imports from abroad, small farmers are being forced off their land,
and our NG and Reserve have been sent off to secure distant resources that
are more important for Eurasia than us.

Look up the history of the "Roman hinterland" followed by "soviet
collectivization" for more fun! :D

MadMag
April 3, 2006, 05:24 PM
"The Mexicans I replaced them with did so, and production went through the roof. End of problem".

I hope the Mexican you replaced him with is paying (and your business) taxes....if so, then that is better than Illegal Aliens that do not pay taxes.

dmallind
April 3, 2006, 05:24 PM
I'm not sure where the resentment and denigration of educated people comes from but it's counterproductive for sure. The countries that are the beneficiaries of our outsourcing are doing the best they can to INCREASE educational attainment in their populations. Both China and India turn out many many more times the technical and scientific graduates than our watered down feel good babysitting (whoops sorry education) systems do. Their school years are signifgicantly - 40% or more - longer than ours. They deliberately seek out the most academically gifted students and make sure they are placed in the most rigorous programs available in meaningful disciplines, not the "everyone is equally smart just in different ways" pablum of home economics and intro to pottery that is secondary education today.

What we need to compete is MORE education, certainly not less. As manufacturing becomes less and less labor intensive (a GOOD thing as it reduces the real cost of manufactured products for us all - how many wage hours to buy a refrigerator in 1950 compared to today?) we need more and more of the people who can design the machines and validate the processes, and fewer who can manipulate and shape the materials. This says absolutely nothing about the inherent worth of both kinds of work, or the people who do it, it just reflects the needs of a modern economy. If we shuffle backwards while India et al are sprinting forwards along this road to increasing education and knowledge-based work, there won't even be white collar jobs left in the US, let alone blue collar. Instead our kids will be the ones clinging to jerry-built rafts looking for jobs picking cotton in Pakistan.

dmallind
April 3, 2006, 05:40 PM
Sorry MadMag but that's reality. I speak not theoretically but from experience. My company DOES advertise $9 an hour jobs. Clean, safe, light, air-conditioned, seated, comfortable jobs with good prospects for advancement (we've doubled in size in 6 years - lots of room to move up). Sure this is anecdotal and regional (as is the example of your son, no more and no less so) but it's very real and not at all a fallacy. It's rare indeed to see an anglo face silling out those forms, and not common at all to see a non-ESL speaker. When they do they are often felons, functionally illiterate, or have had 10 jobs in 3 years, or some combination thereof. What we DO get are tons of Hmong, Somali, Vietnamese and Hispanic applicants, who have solid work histories and are reliable and punctual, and have clean criminal histories. In my six plus years we found precisely three illegal workers, all of whom had false documentation that looked real. All were dismissed and INS notified immediately on discovery. It's certainly possible we have illegal immigrants here who have better counterfeited documents or have not been found yet, but obviously not to our knowledge or complicit acceptance. We run checks on everyone from assemblers to VPs. But for the lower paid jobs we cannot find reliable and competent native workers for the most part.

Now MN is one of the lowest unemployment states and has one of the highest educated workforces and intuitively enough one of the highest per capita incomes despite our moderate cost of living. It's possible that in other states with less sunny economic climates this is not true, but it's what I see. I can post a pic of our work floor any time you like. I can send you job descriptions showing what we look for and payscales showing the rates per job grade (all freely available here of course so no secrets or personal info). You'll see precious few people who grew up in the US or speak English as a native tongue. Trust me it's not because we wnat it that way - we'll take the best skilled and most capable workers we can get like any for-profit enterprise. Just so happens most of them at the entry level (and a growing number not - we have two MEs, two design engineers, one technician, one software developer, two supervisors and an HR generalist) were born in Laos.

Lone_Gunman
April 3, 2006, 05:44 PM
We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border.

Does that make anyone else want to puke when you hear that?

Do we get stronger when that immigrant has 2 or 3 kids, who are now full fledged citizens, who discover its easier to draw welfare than do the work their father did?

MadMag
April 3, 2006, 05:49 PM
"Sorry MadMag but that's reality. I speak not theoretically but from experience".

I don't even need to go past this statement. Did I say theoretically? I clearly said real experience of a job that one of my sons just started.

The reality is that you are about 99% wrong.

R.H. Lee
April 3, 2006, 05:50 PM
The only job security is production.
And that's the sum total of your pro unrestricted illegal immigration argument-that it's good for the bottom line. And has been pointed out before, America is about a lot more than increasing the bottom line, or how many filet mignons you can stuff into your mouth, or how many new pickup trucks you can buy, etc., et yada.

But when your world view is limited to bottom line considerations, I guess anything and everything else is irrelevant.

Jammer Six
April 3, 2006, 05:54 PM
Do we get stronger when that immigrant has 2 or 3 kids, who are now full fledged citizens, who discover its easier to draw welfare than do the work their father did?
Absolutely.

Anyone around here the descendant of an immigrant?

If so, how much welfare do you draw?

R.H. Lee
April 3, 2006, 06:02 PM
Anyone around here the descendant of an immigrant?
Me. I'm first generation; my father immigrated here legally, became an American with no allegiance to the country he left, served this country during WWII, started and ran his own business, paid taxes all his life, etc. Never asked for or collected welfare.

If you'll re-read the OP, the subject is unrestricted illegal immigration. You're attempting to equate regulated and legal immigration with border jumping for the purpose of getting freebies and earning under the table money to send back to Mexico.

antarti
April 3, 2006, 06:12 PM
How about you guys swap income taxes for a VAT?
That is, pay the tax when you buy things, that way the illegals would lose money to taxes as well. Obviously there are many items that should not be taxed, and there would of course be a big fight to keep the Value Added Tax off firearms and ammunition.

eliminate welfare, change the tax system and presto, that's it.

Because our politicians have conditioned us against it.

The current proposals (like the FairTax abortion) are widely mined with FUD by our officials, and they are worthless to boot even if passed. They are the basis for a new 20,000 page tax code with all their kickbacks and complexity.

Also, for some reason people think it totally unfair that certain items sold at retail (food, services, etc) be taxed at all. People act as if the current system doesn't require them to feed the kids of others (in other countries even, much less illegals here) before feeding their own.

A truly fair tax would be, say, 0.4% -1%(max) of State gross consumer receipts, collected by the States and forwarded to the government. Everybody pays whenever they buy anything, and everybody takes all their pay home, period. Even at 1% (because gross receipts in the usa is such a staggering amount) the government is awash in money. Of course, it's not enough for unlimited Empire. That's before everybody gets a 20% to 40% take home "raise", and spends accordingly. Government wants more income? Grow the pie instead of cutting off more and bigger slices.

Do that, and everybody will pay their "fair share".

308win
April 3, 2006, 06:16 PM
Fallacy.

A popular fallacy, but a fallacy.

The carpenter foreman I replaced was a union member, the job was a union job, with full benefits.

I require carpenter foremen to get out of their car, and remain awake. I require journeymen to work even if they're cold.

The Mexicans I replaced them with did so, and production went through the roof.

Ah yes. When the facts and the emperical evidence don't fit your argument hide in annecdotal arguments. After all annecdotal arguments support whatever is your point of view and can't be refuted factually.

Just the other day my next door neighbor was telling me about a contractor on a job he was on looking for his immigrant crew and finding them all asleep in the new cabinets another crew had just installed.

longeyes
April 3, 2006, 06:18 PM
I'm not sure where the resentment and denigration of educated people comes from but it's counterproductive for sure. The countries that are the beneficiaries of our outsourcing are doing the best they can to INCREASE educational attainment in their populations.

The trouble is, a lot of what passes for "education" in America today is mental masturbation, just make-work for overpriced academics. Want to learn about business? You don't need a B.A. or MBA. Work in business. Better, start a business. You can learn the accounting part on your own in a weekend--or hire one.

This country has too many MBAs and too many lawyers and too many "marketing" people. Just my opinion.

dmallind
April 3, 2006, 06:38 PM
"Sorry MadMag but that's reality. I speak not theoretically but from experience".

I don't even need to go past this statement. Did I say theoretically? I clearly said real experience of a job that one of my sons just started.

The reality is that you are about 99% wrong.

Based on what? one anecdote about your kid? You accuse me of being wrong when we're both swapping anecdotes, just me about 250 people and you about 1. You ORIGINALLY accused ME of posting a fallacy. The quote from me is in response to that and makes no implication either way about whther YOU were speaking from experience or not. How could you read it that way? But my anecode is not theoretical, a fallacy or 99% wrong either. We get hardly any native English speakers applying for cushy jobs at that rate. If I were 99% wrong the unemployment rate would be very different and illegals wouldn't be able to find work would they - everybody like your son would be taking the lower paying jobs.

Before you misconstrue THIS post let me say I have no doubt you are telling the truth - your son surely is doing hard work for $9 an hour. Around here trust ME to be telling the truth instead of extrapolating from one datum and say that he could have his pick of far easier $9 an hour jobs provided, as I'm guessing is the case, he can read and show up every day. I wish there were more like him here believe me, as it would make writing procedures and conducting training far easier.

This is the widest angle shot I could get with our cheap and dirty departmental camera and have the races of the particpants visible. The white guy in the foreground is an Industrial engineer. The black guy after him is a Somali immigrant and a supervisor. All the other employees doing the $8.95 (that's to start for 6 mos only BTW - average is 10.50-11 for grade 1) jobs are Hmong.

http://home.comcast.net/~dmallind/IMG_0209.jpg

MadMag
April 3, 2006, 07:08 PM
dmallind
Wow, are you off base. You are telling me about experience with Mexican workers. I spent 38 years working in industry and most all of my time was spent in our Mexico operations. You show one picture…for what reason? I have hundreds of similar photos. In fact, I our company was the 2nd largest employer in Juarez. I lived in El Paso. I worked in Juarez and in our Torreon plant. So, don’t try to tell me about experience.

Now, we had very good Mexican workers. As an engineer I trained many Mexican engineers to work in our factories. In fact, they usually replaced Americans. The point is not are they good workers, the point is that illegal aliens do not pay taxes and support of our system. It costs Americans more…not less….to have illegal aliens working in the USA.

Now I see the problem....you are young and not experienced. This happens when you are new in industry and think that what you are seeing is some kind of new revelation. Been there once myself!

Not that it matters, but you are wrong again. I was not the one that posted anything about the fallacy statement.

Just to add: I think when you said 250 to 1 you are talking about the number of employees at your plant. We had about 13000 in the Juarez plants not counting Torreon, USA, & Europe.

Jammer Six
April 3, 2006, 07:10 PM
Me. I'm first generation; my father immigrated here legally, became an American with no allegiance to the country he left, served this country during WWII, started and ran his own business, paid taxes all his life, etc. Never asked for or collected welfare.
Yup.

And if an immigrant has children here, whether that immigrant is legal or illegal, those children can do exactly those same things. Perfectly legally.

Just like you.

We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border. We get stronger with every generation.

longeyes
April 3, 2006, 08:07 PM
And if an immigrant has children here, whether that immigrant is legal or illegal, those children can do exactly those same things. Perfectly legally.

Just like you.

We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border. We get stronger with every generation.


You ignore one salient issue: ASSIMILATION. Or, rather, the lack of it. This is the legacy of the multicultural mania of the last forty years.

Mexicans seem to want to stay Mexicans--in the U.S. Or tell me that the Mexican flags and Aztlan propaganda and statements by La Raza mean nothing.

Bartholomew Roberts
April 3, 2006, 10:59 PM
Mexicans seem to want to stay Mexicans--in the U.S. Or tell me that the Mexican flags and Aztlan propaganda and statements by La Raza mean nothing.

They mean about as much as burning crosses and KKK outfits. I am a little skeptical of the proposition that Mexicans risk life and limb crossing the desert on foot because they want this country to be just like the one they fled. There hasn't been a culture yet that has successfully resisted assimilating into American culture. People come here precisely because this is the culture they want to live in.

longeyes
April 3, 2006, 11:13 PM
I am a little skeptical of the proposition that Mexicans risk life and limb crossing the desert on foot because they want this country to be just like the one they fled.

Has it occurred to you that poor, uneducated people just do what they know, that maybe they are not making the best choices for themselves? Now that wouldn't be a surprising pattern, would it?

There hasn't been a culture that has resisted assimilation? That might have been true before welfare and multiculturalism, not any longer. I think those old positivist assumptions are out of date.

When was the last time you saw half a million KKK or Nazis out in force, waving their colors?

Bartholomew Roberts
April 3, 2006, 11:19 PM
There hasn't been a culture that has resisted assimilation? That might have been true before welfare and multiculturalism, not any longer. I think those old positivist assumptions are out of date.

So you believe that people are leaving homes where they are just fine with the culture to come here - and that once they come here and enjoy one of the highest standards of living and freedoms in the world, they still want to change the culture to be like the one they left?

When was the last time you saw half a million KKK or Nazis out in force, waving their colors?

1940s if we are going by the actual term. 1960s at least if we are just going by the shared beliefs. Of course, I also find it difficult to believe that any group of 500,000 people has a lot of beliefs in common. Just because I am marching in a big group of people and someone in that same group is carrying a stupid billboard, it doesn't mean I support or share that specific belief.

longeyes
April 3, 2006, 11:21 PM
Assimilation means more than speaking English and not being a felon and paying taxes. It means embracing the core values of the American Republic. If we are not able to ensure that the next fifty million Mexicans who come to the U.S. are in philosophical congruence with The Rest of Us we are asking for civil war, the loss of what we have known as America, or both.

macavada
April 4, 2006, 01:06 AM
I'm sick of "Americans" crying about assimilation. Just because you don't have the patience for them to complete their journey from immigrant (illegal or otherwise) to American (which can take two to three generations) doesn't mean they're not assimilating. If you're just dissatisfied because they're moving in to your neighborhoods, well tough. Who cares if they assimilate anyway. They can live in this country and speak their native tongue for fifty years, for all I care.

How fast do you need them to assimilate? Seems like the next new excuse for not allowing foreigners. Do they need to take a test in six months? three months? Do they need to have taken ingles sin barreras before they even step foot?

gc70
April 4, 2006, 01:29 AM
Hey, J6, I'll trade you for your two hard-working Mexicans.

We're renovating some of our offices and on Friday I took one of my team leaders to check progress on her office. The office door was closed and I was surprised to find a Mexican (no habla) worker staring out the window (no biggie - it might have been his siesta time). As my team leader and I looked around, there was movement under the plastic cover over her desk; yep, there was another worker under there. I don't know whether the guy under the desk was also on siesta or just had a thing for huffing womens' shoes, but I'm ready for some trade-ins.

Jammer Six
April 4, 2006, 01:32 AM
Assimilation means more than speaking English and not being a felon and paying taxes. It means embracing the core values of the American Republic.
Well, that's what it means to you, anyway.

MadMag
April 4, 2006, 01:52 AM
For me, I am not to worried about assimilation.

I just want illegal aliens to pay taxes and stop taking free rides on our welfare system.....seems fair to me.

CAnnoneer
April 4, 2006, 02:05 AM
what passes for "education" in America today is mental masturbation, just make-work for overpriced academics. This country has too many MBAs and too many lawyers and too many "marketing" people. Just my opinion.

That is a direct result of a culture of bottom-line and instant gratification, combined with Hollywood values, and the idea that you must go to college even if all you get is a worthless pointless irrelevant degree.

To train a decent scientist or engineer, you must have him work hard for maybe 20 years. It is difficult and it requires a lot of hard analytical thinking and mental discipline. In comparison, you can churn out a reject in the soft descriptive "sciences" such as sociology, political "science", psychology etc. a dime a dozen. All you get is more socialists and communists who happily buy into the "it's the capitalist racist white man's fault" when they can't get a cushy job to support them and their feeling of superiority just because they "went to college".

When was the last time you bought yourself a product of sociology or psychology that you could eat, wear, or drive?

CAnnoneer
April 4, 2006, 02:17 AM
So you believe that people are leaving homes where they are just fine with the culture to come here - and that once they come here and enjoy one of the highest standards of living and freedoms in the world, they still want to change the culture to be like the one they left?

Therein the error. What they want is their native culture in combination with American prosperity. What they do not understand is that culture and prosperity often go hand-in-hand.

What is different with the new wave wrt older waves, such as Polish, German, Russian, Irish, and Italian, are that in the respective periods past, there was no socialist multiculturalism to tell them that it is not only okay not to adopt the American ways, but that in fact it is preferable and that in doing so they become entitled to special treatment. Older waves were also not told that breaking the law was okay.

Our homegrown leftists are just as much to blame as the cheap-labor corporatist stooges in WashDC. They all play their destructive roles only too well.

longeyes
April 4, 2006, 02:30 AM
We'll see how much American prosperity the "new wave" obtains if they don't acquire high-level white collar skills or succeed in getting significant wage hikes for blue-collar labor. Right now, as illegal immigrants, they're not doing either, just getting by, for the most part, taking what they can get plus whatever welfare benefits they can scrounge via their dependents. Of course, if they accomplish either of those goals we'll need still more illegals "to do the jobs Americans won't do."

From what I heard being said by illegals during the demonstrations--"what difference does it make if we're legal or illegal?"--I think, yeah, we have plenty to worry about regarding their grasp of American values. Where they come from, The Law is a joke and la mordida is the rule. Here it's different--so far.

R.H. Lee
April 4, 2006, 09:30 AM
They can live in this country and speak their native tongue for fifty years, for all I care. Well, sure, if that's all it amounted to. But it isn't. Nearly all governments, and more and more businesses are throwing up the language barrier 'para assistencia en espanol ponge numero nueve.......'
Even ATM and debit card machines ask if you want English or Espanol (why.....does it need to convert currency if I pay in pesos?.........)

A common language (and culture) is (was) one of the great strengths of this country. Multilingualism is divisive. We get weaker every time an illegal immigrant jumps the border.

CAnnoneer
April 4, 2006, 12:00 PM
It is amazing to me that people do not see the stark differences with previous waves. To complement RHLee's statement, observe that never before did the government require bilingual education and administrative services in the language of the newest wave of immigration. Do you see these things required in Polish, Irish, German, Russian, or Italian? Anyway you look at it, it is cheap pandering to the latino votes and another form of new entitlement. It makes them believe they are special and deserving of special treatment and arrangements. That builds up expectations and desires for even more giveaways and privileges. These recent demonstrations only show the level of divestment and division.

RealGun
April 4, 2006, 12:22 PM
My sister-in-law teaches high school Spanish, and her oldest daughter, my niece, is a bilingual bank manager. On a regular basis, the police call the school and arrange for my sister-in-law to serve as translator for some perp or domestic problem. See the dilemma? Someone in this country should be expected to learn the language to some level ASAP. Staying in cultural ghettos primarily for sake of language or being allowed to join a work crew only if able to speak Spanish like the rest of the crew is an aberration.

wingman
April 4, 2006, 12:54 PM
In my small part of the world there is a huge change in illegal behavior in just
the past 20 years, more prone to violence. Doubt that talk with grunt level
police in south texas.

TX35
April 4, 2006, 12:59 PM
Google MS-13... Nooooooo, they're here to just work for a better life!!!! Whatever.... :fire:

Bartholomew Roberts
April 4, 2006, 01:47 PM
What they do not understand is that culture and prosperity often go hand-in-hand.

Frankly not many native born Americans have a good grasp on that concept either. I'd gladly trade some native born Americans for some of the immigrants I've met. At least the immigrants I've met appeciate the difference in culture and why it contributes to America's greatness (and they still have that quaint and once common notion that America is a great place to be instead of being the root of all evil in the modern world).

Thin Black Line
April 4, 2006, 03:07 PM
So you believe that people are leaving homes where they are just fine with the culture to come here - and that once they come here and enjoy one of the highest standards of living and freedoms in the world, they still want to change the culture to be like the one they left?

Some do, some don't. Some want to do something entirely different.

I'd say the people in the presentation below DO want to change our
culture because they have absolutely no respect for it and see American
culture as something inherently evil from the start:


http://www.wehategringos.com/index2.shtml


As a veteran, I understand I fought for "freedom of speech" for AMERICANS
but this kind of cr@p is akin to letting the nazis, communists, or Al-Q into
the USA on a free pass during a time of war. These people completely
refuse to assimilate and their attitudes are the antithesis of everything I
hold dear and risked my life defending.

I'll go a step further and state here that an "american" who knowingly hires
illegal aliens in order to save a buck is hurting his fellow citizens, undercuts
domestic businesses that FOLLOW THE RULES, and indirectly contributes
to the fifth column globalist traitors who are attempting to subvert this fine
country. :barf:

CAnnoneer
April 4, 2006, 03:21 PM
I'll go a step further and state here that an "american" who knowingly hires illegal aliens in order to save a buck is hurting his fellow citizens, undercuts domestic businesses that FOLLOW THE RULES, and indirectly contributes to the fifth column globalist traitors who are attempting to subvert this fine country.

Precisely.

Art Eatman
April 4, 2006, 03:32 PM
I note in passing that there are two legal immigrants involved with THR who are stronger about the Bill of Rights than a high percentage of the native born. Holds true for many posters here and at TFL who claim legal immigrant status.

As near as i can tell, it t akes about three generations before it could truly be called "assimilation". It seems to me that with the general changes in our society, the culture into which they assimilate will be far different than what existed merely twenty years back...

I'd say we get stronger with legal immigrants, given the history of "brain drain" INTO the U.S. Since it's fact that there is a net tax burden on society due to illegals, it is inescapable fact that they weaken us.

Art

Jammer Six
April 4, 2006, 05:01 PM
Since it's fact that there is a net tax burden on society due to illegals, it is inescapable fact that they weaken us.
A businessman who only reads one side of the ledger is doomed to fail.

That is only one side of the ledger, by definition.

You don't know how many illegal immigrants pay taxes, and neither does anyone else. Therefore, whether the net is a gain or a loss can't be measured.

My checking account always looks great before I add the checks.

You don't know, because no one does, how many deposits they've made.

Furthermore, their contribution is beyond measurement- all human beings bring more to the table than can be measured.

Those sons and daughters everyone here is so afraid of contain the same potential that every American does, and has the same chance of achieving that potential. And they will be legal, native born, full-fledged American citizens, from their first breath. Just like you.

Another, subtle contribution, that I'm stunned no one here picked up on, is that there's now an American foreman and an American journeyman out there who lost their jobs.

Will they figure that out? Will one, perhaps, choose to stay awake on his next dispatch? Will the other consider putting out, even though it's cold?

They have a chance to learn, to improve. If they do, the competition will have made them stronger.

We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border. In so many ways. :cool:

Waitone
April 4, 2006, 05:15 PM
****Poof****

Jammer Six
April 4, 2006, 05:40 PM
Beans for lunch?

Trip20
April 4, 2006, 07:05 PM
We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border. In so many ways. :cool:
Take off those shades. You still spouting this tired old line?

Maybe you wouldn't mind detailing for us how we grow stronger in "so many ways."

Lets hear each "way", and a detailed description of it's benefit. And steer clear of the cheap labor racket. That's old news as well.

haole_boySS
April 4, 2006, 07:44 PM
As near as i can tell, it t akes about three generations before it could truly be called "assimilation". It seems to me that with the general changes in our society, the culture into which they assimilate will be far different than what existed merely twenty years back...


I might have missed that someone else already posted something similar cause I kinda skimmed thru the 6 pages.....

Why does it take 3 yrs to learn our language? The language in which our Constitution and Bill of rights was written. I personally think that is the issue that most native born americans have. I just want people that I have to interact with, on a daily, in MY OWN country to speak my language. I don't think that is too much to ask, and it doesn't take 3 yrs to learn english.

I guess I base my opinion (thats all it is, just an opinion) on other countries tolerating english speaking Americans doing the same in there country. Would Mexico or any other country south of them (that doesnt have a US military presence) allow us to cross their borders, live in their system illegally, set up camp and build a little America? Where we refuse to speak the language, refuse to accept the culture, etc etc?? Would any non english speaking European country tolerate it? Any Asian country?

I dont think they would. Again, that is just MY opinion. I believe that a wave of Americans doing this same thing in another country would be forced to assimilate to survive. I dont believe they would twist and bend to accomadate us.

jmho

Andy

MadMag
April 4, 2006, 09:47 PM
This debate has now been rendered moot. The Mexican illegals have just announced that they are going to strike on May 1st not go to work and shut this country down.

The internet will probably not work
Congress will not work (same as always)
All stores across the USA will be closed
All home construction in USA will be delayed by 1 hr (actual work loss time)
No gas available
There is a chance the Sun will not work…so just darkness

Or Not
I always have liked living on the edge so I think I will take a chance and just do normal things on May 1st.

Jammer Six
April 4, 2006, 09:51 PM
I just want people that I have to interact with, on a daily, in MY OWN country to speak my language. I don't think that is too much to ask, and it doesn't take 3 yrs to learn english.
Shall we discuss that over a bowl of pho?

The idea that English is necessary is fear based, ridiculous, and highly amusing.

Lone_Gunman
April 4, 2006, 09:58 PM
Jammer, do you have any idea how hard it is to get a decent medical history from a non-English speaking person at 2 A.M. in the emergency department, when no interpretor is available?

It might not be what you call necessary, but not being able to speak
English in that situation results in more tests, and possibly a bad outcome or even death.

MadMag
April 4, 2006, 10:18 PM
Jammer Six

"You don't know how many illegal immigrants pay taxes"

I thought the number was zero.

Please enlighten me. How do illegals file State and Federal income tax forms? I thought you needed a legal SS#.

Serious question…not joking. I would like to know how this works.

MNgoldenbear
April 4, 2006, 10:35 PM
I did not read the entire thread (I do TRY to have a life outside of cyberspace:D ), so I'll apologize if this has already been brought up. I wanted to mention that a large number of illegals are from Canada and Europe. They don't often draw attention because they blend in (read that as "they're Caucasian"). I guess if everyone is always required to show paperwork that they have a right ot be in the country, that would be fair... but then again, don't we often argue about that concept in terms of whether we should have a right to bear arms and carry concealed? Hmm.:D

CAnnoneer
April 4, 2006, 10:52 PM
Those sons and daughters everyone here is so afraid of contain the same potential that every American does, and has the same chance of achieving that potential. And they will be legal, native born, full-fledged American citizens, from their first breath. Just like you.

In an ideal kumbaya world maybe. But there are many much more powerful factors than that. They might have the potential, but what would likely happen is that they grow in their ethnic enclaves, learn how to work the system, refuse to learn English, systematically fail at school, and become another entitlement-based welfare ethnic underclass that eats peanuts off the hands of leftists, statists, and socialists, voting consistently against our civil liberties.

If half of what you want comes to pass, you will be weeping in 20 years... Unless you are a multimillionaire who hopes to buy himself off by retaining expensive lawyers and living in gated communities, all you support digs your own grave.

TexasRifleman
April 4, 2006, 10:53 PM
I wanted to mention that a large number of illegals are from Canada and Europe.

"Large" number as compared to what? After you fix the 4 foot hole in the boat you worry about the 2 inch hole in the boat..... It's still a hole but it won't sink you nearly as fast.

Kodiaz
April 4, 2006, 10:55 PM
I don't think it takes 3 generations to assimilate. I'm first generation American.
I run into a lot of Spanish speaking people when they asked where I'm from I say "I'm American I was born here, my parents were born in Cuba." I don't own a Cuban flag I wouldn't dare fly one above a U.S. flag and if i saw a Cuban flag over an upside down American flag well I would grab a firearm and then call the police.


Now I have a blue collar job and I have done A/C work on new construction. I've met a lot of illegals they can barely speak decent spanish most of the time. Most of them can't read or write and when I ask about where they come from they say the jungle, no cars, no schools, no power.


Legal immigrants have to meet certain levels of literacy that are beyond the average illegal.


That's why you see them voting for all these socialists in their countries they hear the promises and that is what they believe. Even if they could get the national paper they probably couldn't read it to find out the truth.


Also in their countries where there is no middle class and very little way to leave the poor class they try to stick it to the rich any chance they get which is why they vote for socialism in the first place. Which is why when you go to Mexico if you have trouble with the law you will have to bribe the police they want to stick it to the rich white yanquis.

longeyes
April 4, 2006, 11:02 PM
This debate has now been rendered moot. The Mexican illegals have just announced that they are going to strike on May 1st not go to work and shut this country down.

Well, that should solidy their international socialist worker credentials and tick off any remaining Americans.

MadMag
April 4, 2006, 11:07 PM
I agree with Longeyes

The date of May 1st and in addtion to a strike shows how little these illegals understand the USA.

This is just one article on the net. I actually heard about the strike on Fox News first.

Hispanic groups in the U.S. are planning a major boycott of American life dubbed a ”day without Latinos” to protest proposed legislation that would criminalize illegal immigration.
Mexican American Political Association (MAPA) President Nativo Lopez, one of the organizers of the recent protests in Los Angeles that saw at least 500,000 people take to the streets, said the May 1 "day without Latinos” would send a stern message to Washington.
"We are looking forward to a major action in all large U.S. cities where immigrants make up a significant proportion of the workforce,” Lopez told Agence France-Presse

Jammer Six
April 5, 2006, 12:34 AM
Please enlighten me. How do illegals file State and Federal income tax forms? I thought you needed a legal SS#.
No.

It takes A social security number.

Of the right number of digits, with the dashes in the right places.

It helps if the numbers are different.

Follow these simple guidelines, and your government will be happy to cash the check.

THEY don't file any forms- which is exactly my point. They never file for benefits, or tax returns. The government gets to keep all of it.

You don't suppose the politicians KNOW about this, and think about it when they're deciding these questions, do you? :cool:

MadMag
April 5, 2006, 01:03 AM
Thanks Jammer Six

Now I understand...they don't pay taxes.

Of course unless you can document any cases where illegals are paying taxes the way you discribed.

Wait, now I get it. They don't file forms so you can't prove they gave money freely to the goverment. Now I really understand.

I sent in a million dollars last year with a bogus SS# (or ITIN#) just to help our country...didn't want any credit.

One more minor point. If the Goverment gets to keep all of "it"...what is "it" if they sent in zero for "it"

Can I not file taxes and tell the govenment you said they are lucky to keep "it".

Are you saying people should use illegal SS# or ITIN numbers for filing?

pax
April 5, 2006, 04:16 AM
MadMag ~

I used to work for a large-ish agricultural business. Here's how it works: an employee comes in and says his brother would like a job too. Boss asks, "He speak English? Habla ingles?" Employee says, "No. But he has papers." Boss says, "Okay, have him come in tomorrow."

Tomorrow rolls around. In comes the new employee, carrying his papers which were probably hot off the press. But they look valid enough. Boss hires him, notes down the SSN and all the other details.

Employee works for a year. During this time, his wages are attached for taxes -- just like yours are. Withholding, SSN, worker's comp. Adds up to a sizeable bite out of a minimum wage job.

April 15 rolls around. At the income level these guys work, they won't need to pay fed income tax in any case, but they won't give the game away by filing exempt from withholding. Their kids would each be eligible for the $1k earned-income credit, so they'd probably get more back than they paid in if they filed. Doesn't matter, such employees don't usually file. They just plan to become someone else, in some other location, if the IRS sends a letter.

Since the employee doesn't file to collect his return, the government keeps every cent of withholding that was paid in through his paycheck over the course of the year -- money which definitely would have come back to an American citizen working the same job.

Lots of reasons to fear or hate illegals. But a lot of them do pay a lot of taxes that they wouldn't pay if they were legal.

pax

Lone_Gunman
April 5, 2006, 09:07 AM
Pax, it is my understanding that most illegals invovled in farming in Georgia are payed in cash. Nothing is withheld, so no taxes are paid.

Al Norris
April 5, 2006, 09:40 AM
Here in Idaho, I have never seen a farmer pay his workers in cash. The Bank at which the farmer got his operating loan, demands a full accounting of all monies used by the farmer. Every penny is accounted for. Every worker is given a check, and on the check stub are the deductions. Listed just like yours or mine. Fed W/H; FICA; Medicare, and State W/H.

Over in CA, there is a movement going on to inform these illegals of their rights. In 1996, Congress approved a plan whereby a worker may get a Taxpayers Identification Number (TIN) and file their taxes with that. The SSN they used to get hired isn't crossed referenced. Against the law, you see. So these illegals either let the Goveernment keep all the taxes withheld or they file a return and get back their fair share. All perfectly legal.

Many file this way, as it establishes their residency for later when the apply for an actual green card.

More illegals pay taxes than do not. Less of them actually file, however.

roo_ster
April 5, 2006, 10:49 AM
Most illegal alien workers 'round 'bout my neck of the woods are paid in cash. No income, FICA, or medicare taxes.

Employer pulls up to where the "good Catholic boys" collect & has the requisite number hop into his pickup truck bed. Employer provides transport to/from jobsite(s) & usually lunch, in addition to wages.

For those illegals that work in more formal settings, fed.gov can easily ferret out which workers are illegal by comparing SSNs & TINs. They have done so in the past and have informed the employers. Fed.gov doesn't do that much, anymore, for some reason.

MadMag
April 5, 2006, 10:58 AM
As I said, illegal aliens get free medical treatment and other welfare support without paying their way.

Stories about some farmer that tries to do the right thing does not impress me. Also, using bogus papers does not impress me...even if the end result is in these cases the government gets some money.

You have to apply to get a legal ITIN...not just make up numbers.

Illegal aliens do not pay to support the system they use.

Now, if you guys that support illegals can get the government to allow all of us to operate using bogus papers or picking one employer out of many that might send in some tax money...then go for it!

I lived in El Paso and worked in Juarez. I paid Mexican & USA taxes. Very formal...no bogus papers.

El Paso has some of the highest property taxes in the US....know why? Becasue they have to get the money from property owners. Thats why no State income tax....won't work because to many illegals do not pay tax....so get the support from the only people you can tax...property owners.

longeyes
April 5, 2006, 12:18 PM
Let's posit that illegals pay taxes. Problem in a nutshell: They don't pay ENOUGH taxes. Any illegal with dependents is taking out of society far, far more than he could ever hope to pay in. Schooling his kids at $10K a head means a steady, hefty rise in local property taxes alone. Importing millions upon millions of low-paid, low-skill workers means one thing: a vastly increased welfare state, with all that implies for fiscal solvency and civil liberties.

If that's what you want, go for it.

R.H. Lee
April 5, 2006, 12:21 PM
THEY don't file any forms- which is exactly my point. They never file for benefits, or tax returns. The government gets to keep all of it.

You don't suppose the politicians KNOW about this, and think about it when they're deciding these questions, do you? "THEY" also includes dishonest employers of illegals, who may withhold taxes but never deposit said taxes with the government. If the employer deposit taxes withheld under a bogus SSN, the Social Security Administration sends the employer a letter advising of same.

Bartholomew Roberts
April 5, 2006, 12:25 PM
For those illegals that work in more formal settings, fed.gov can easily ferret out which workers are illegal by comparing SSNs & TINs. They have done so in the past and have informed the employers. Fed.gov doesn't do that much, anymore, for some reason.

Because pretty much the entire Georgia and Nebraska Congressional delegation chewed on their hindquarters after they made several attempts to clean up the problem in the meatpacking and onion-picking industries. The man who came up with the plan decided to take early retirement and future bureaucrats learned that just because a Congressman says he is concerned about illegal immigration doesn't mean he wants something done about it.

longeyes
April 5, 2006, 12:40 PM
What we are witnessing is the de facto dissolution of Congress. Elections in the fall are not going to fix the systemic problem we now have with our Government. All they doing is de-legitimizing themselves.

Most people on this forum well understood how we'd gotten off the tracks by '00. That is precisely why many of us voted for George Bush and a Republican Congress--as an antidote to a disease that had grown virulent. We've seen where that has gotten us in an age of lies and betrayal.

I voted twice for Bush. I now believe he needs to be removed from office--if only to show the politicians that We the People are still in charge. Don't tell me we need to stand firm in a time of global terrorism, etc. There are other people out there, with tougher, sounder, less compromised strategies who can run our military operations. I happen to believe that Bush didn't do anything that special in dealing with the very real threats we face and that his model for solving the problem is seriously flawed. Nation-building abroad and nation-destruction at home is not an acceptable program. We are going to need to look outside the box, as the cliche goes, to find our way here. The American people need to make clear to the poltroons in the political establishment that we are NOT going to stand for any legislation that destroys the American nation.

MadMag
April 5, 2006, 12:42 PM
I will make this my final input and response for a while. I normally don’t post that much and do not want to abuse the privilege.

No one should expect me to take feel comfortably when someone says don’t worry…since you do not know what taxes illegals pay or do not pay then everything is Ok. No one would accept that answer in business or their personal finance.

I know that in any area that has heavy illegal workers the tax base always goes up much faster than the national average. That is because illegals are not sharing the tax load. When you see the Governor of Arizona say that they cannot sustain the tax load for welfare programs (not just border patrol), then you see what will happen in your area when you have enough illegal workers. Always works that way. Also, I lived in California…same story.

Now I do not have what I would call cultural fear. I worked most of my life supporting and working in factories in Mexico. I am retired, but some of my best and respected friends are in Torreon Mexico (not a border town). I just want all to pay their share of the tax burden.

Also, I feel strange when they talk about the jobs that only Mexicans will work. I worked most of those kinds of jobs in my younger days. I did go on to get a higher education and retired as an operations manager. Which means I am expert on everything. Also, worked for a 1st Sgt. in the Army that did not know I was not supposed to do dirty work.

Anyway, my wife likes this forum because it lets me blow off steam without bothering her.

pax
April 5, 2006, 12:47 PM
MadMag ~

I wasn't trying to "impress" you. I was only explaining how the system works in the business office of a large agri-business. If the facts interfere with your preconceptions, by all means, feel free to throw the facts out the window and go with emoting instead.

A low-income American family actually pays very little in federal income taxes -- often none. Low income families with kids are eligible for a $1000/kid tax credit, which means the government pays them at least that much money back no matter how much they paid in or didn't pay in.

So a Mexican family crosses the border and the parents go to work here. The boss pays them regular paychecks with a fake SSN, and they leave the their withholdings in the system rather than taking it out as an American family would. Or farmer pays them under the table, and so their withholding never gets into the system at all -- but then, neither do they withdraw that $1000/kid that the American family would.

In either case, that illegal Mexican family is less of a burden on the system than the American family in identical circumstances.

The problem isn't the illegals, folks. The problem is a huge, confiscatory tax structure, heavy with dead weight and getting worse every year. The illegals are only the tip of that iceberg.

pax

longeyes
April 5, 2006, 01:03 PM
A low-income American family actually pays very little in federal income taxes -- often none. Low income families with kids are eligible for a $1000/kid tax credit, which means the government pays them at least that much money back no matter how much they paid in or didn't pay in.

So a Mexican family crosses the border and the parents go to work here. The boss pays them regular paychecks with a fake SSN, and they leave the their withholdings in the system rather than taking it out as an American family would. Or farmer pays them under the table, and so their withholding never gets into the system at all -- but then, neither do they withdraw that $1000/kid that the American family would.

In either case, that illegal Mexican family is less of a burden on the system than the American family in identical circumstances.

The problem isn't the illegals, folks. The problem is a huge, confiscatory tax structure, heavy with dead weight and getting worse every year. The illegals are only the tip of that iceberg.


Well put, and that is EXACTLY why this whole rush to legalize millions of illegals goes beyond foolishness to outright treason. All it will do is HUGELY expand the social welfare establishment of the United States, gutting any vestige of a free Republic in the process and putting the last nails in the coffin of fiscal solvency.

If this goes through we will either become a socialist natiion within one generation or we will experience militant secession, along with political fragmentation and turmoil.

DRZinn
April 5, 2006, 01:26 PM
The problem isn't the illegals, folks. The problem is a huge, confiscatory tax structure, heavy with dead weight and getting worse every year. The illegals are only the tip of that iceberg.More to the point, the problem is the welfare state supported by that tax structure. Stop giving them things, and they'll no longer be a problem.

longeyes
April 5, 2006, 02:01 PM
Will someone tell this alleged grown-up that the illegal immigration debate is not about HIM? He's another "offended" American? Sheesh. I'd call this childish if it were not outright disingenuous. The last thing I'd do with a Bush is to accuse him of a "thoughtful policy for the long term." My view? They can all go live in Mexico.


http://www.latimes.com/services/site/premium/access-registered.intercept
From the Los Angeles Times
Florida Gov. Bush Calls Tone of Immigration Debate `Hurtful'
He accuses some fellow Republicans of misusing the issue for short-term political gain.
By Peter Wallsten
Times Staff Writer

April 5, 2006

WASHINGTON — Accusing politicians of "pounding their chests" on immigration for short-term political gain, Florida Gov. Jeb Bush said Tuesday that the tone of the debate had been "hurtful" to him and his Mexican-born wife, Columba.

Bush, the younger brother of President Bush, reserved some of his sharpest criticism for conservatives in his own Republican Party, calling it "just plain wrong" to charge illegal immigrants with a felony, as a provision passed by the Republican-led House would do. He also opposed "penalizing the children of illegal immigrants" by denying them U.S. citizenship, an idea backed by some conservatives but not included in the legislation.

"My wife came here legally, but it hurts her just as it hurts me when people give the perception that all immigrants are bad," the Florida governor wrote in an e-mail exchange with The Times.

Gov. Bush has generally avoided injecting himself into national political fights, and he rarely invokes his soft-spoken wife of 32 years in such a public way. But his comments reflect the concern among many Republicans that calls by conservatives for an immigrant crackdown risk alienating Latino voters.

His brother is attempting to navigate a growing rift among Republicans over what to do with the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in the country. The president has proposed a guest-worker program but has not said what should happen to those already here illegally.

Florida is home to millions of residents who were born in other countries. And the Bush brothers, in Florida and Texas, where the president was governor, have been popular with Latino voters.

Both have long advocated open immigration laws, putting them at odds with many in their party.

Longtime friends and associates say the president's relationship with his brother's family, along with his experiences living and working in Texas, contributed to his views on immigration.

The Senate is debating immigration proposals this week, and White House allies are beginning to speak out more forcefully on the issue.

Republican National Committee Chairman Ken Mehlman used a speech Tuesday to the Hispanic Chamber of Commerce to extol the contributions of immigrants.

In his e-mail, Gov. Bush chastised both politicians and the media for being simplistic on immigration, and he lauded his brother for seeking a civil tone.

"The cumulative effect of some politicians pounding their chests about immigration is hurtful to both of us," he wrote, referring to himself and his brother. "I fear they do so for current political gain at the expense of thoughtful policy over the long term."

Jeb Bush pointed to the political damage wrought 12 years ago by California's Proposition 187, in which the state's voters backed a plan to strip illegal immigrants of public benefits. The initiative was pushed by then-Gov. Pete Wilson, a Republican. Some analysts have since blamed that campaign for a backlash among Latino voters that has made California reliably Democratic in national elections.

Gov. Bush wrote that Wilson "fell prey" to the short-term political temptations. "I know he felt he was doing the right thing, but matters are worse now and the Republican Party is now the minority party in California," Bush wrote.

Wilson, in a recent interview, rejected the theory that Prop. 187 turned California to the left — arguing that, instead, he had performed especially well with female voters who later abandoned the GOP over abortion.

Referring to Republicans who shied away from cracking down on illegal immigrants as "gutless," Wilson said they were "intimidated by the fear that they will be charged with racism."

For the Florida governor, though, immigration is a personal matter. He met his wife during a high school exchange program in Mexico, and the two married when he was 21. They settled in Miami in 1980 in part because she would feel comfortable in a heavily Latin city, home to Cubans, Mexicans and thousands of other Spanish-speaking immigrants.

The governor speaks the language fluently. His son, George P. Bush, has cited his Latino heritage in campaign appearances for his father and uncle and is considered an heir to the family political dynasty.

"Columba and I watch the news early in the morning and in the evenings," Bush wrote in the late-night e-mail exchange. "The cumulative effect of the coverage is that immigrants are bad and hurting our country. The coverage is black and white, good and bad, without the nuances that the coverage deserves."

The Florida governor has said he does not intend to run for president in 2008. But he has been mentioned as a potential running mate for another likely candidate, Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.).

In his e-mail, Gov. Bush endorsed the idea of a broad guest-worker program encompassing the kinds of low-wage workers sought by farms and factories as well as high-tech professionals from places such as India.

Like his brother, he offered no specificity on how to treat current immigrants and whether they should be granted a path to citizenship.

"The focus should be on protecting our borders rather than these piling on provisions that are punitive to many who have made a great contribution to our country," he wrote. "Along with that, the focus should be on a guest worker program and a means to deal with the millions of long term undocumented workers….

"Frankly," he added, "I also believe we should open up legal immigration to the qualified scientists, innovators, entrepreneurs and others who can additionally add value to our great country."

wingman
April 5, 2006, 02:18 PM
Longtime friends and associates say the president's relationship with his brother's family, along with his experiences living and working in Texas, contributed to his views on immigration.


I would think money contributes more to their view on illegal immigration.:rolleyes:

roo_ster
April 5, 2006, 03:10 PM
"Longtime friends and associates say jfruser's relationship with his county's & school district's tax collecting agencies, along with his experiences living and working in Texas, contributed to his views on immigration."

Maybe GWB & I differ because I don't hire illegals to cut my lawn, raise my children, or do my other dirty jobs and I don't let the employers of illegal aliens whisper in my ear & place their hand in my pocket to fondle my...wallet.

R.H. Lee
April 5, 2006, 03:23 PM
"My wife came here legally, but it hurts her just as it hurts me when people give the perception that all immigrants are bad," the Florida governor wrote in an e-mail exchange with The Times.
This statement is not really as dumb as it sounds. The purpose/agenda of Jeb and his fellow pro immigration travelers is to obfuscate the difference between managed legal and unrestricted illegal immigration. They are not the same thing. It's an attempt to spin perception over reality by blurring the line.

bowfin
April 5, 2006, 04:13 PM
/*And are you willing to accept the inevitable changes in society that will result from a closed border patrolled by a large force of guards with orders to shoot to kill? */

Moreso than I would be willing to accept the inevitable changes in society that will result when everyone is free to choose which laws they are exempted from following, and the fallout that comes when one can openly and publicly break laws for their own personal gain, free from consequences.

Jammer Six
April 5, 2006, 04:55 PM
Moreso than I would be willing to accept the inevitable changes in society that will result when everyone is free to choose which laws they are exempted from following, and the fallout that comes when one can openly and publicly break laws for their own personal gain, free from consequences.
No worries.

Soon, it will be legal, and this will all go away. They'll be able to walk right across the border, just like a white Canadian.

I mean, it's just the legality you guys are yipping about, right?

Make them all legal, and you all have no more problem, right? :cool:

Travis Lee
April 5, 2006, 05:25 PM
Jammer why exactly is it right for Mexico to defend its borders
and enforce laws against illegal immigration but it is wrong for
the US to do so?



--Travis--

Travis Lee
April 5, 2006, 05:36 PM
.... the Mexican constitution includes the following restrictions:

Pursuant to Article 33, "Foreigners may not in any way participate in the political affairs of the country." This ban applies, among other things, to participation in demonstrations and the expression of opinions in public about domestic politics like those much in evidence in Los Angeles, New York and elsewhere in recent days.

Equal employment rights are denied to immigrants, even legal ones. Article 32: "Mexicans shall have priority over foreigners under equality of circumstances for all classes of concessions and for all employment, positions, or commissions of the Government in which the status of citizenship is not indispensable."

Jobs for which Mexican citizenship is considered "indispensable" include, pursuant to Article 32, bans on foreigners, immigrants, and even naturalized citizens of Mexico serving as military officers, Mexican-flagged ship and airline crew, and chiefs of seaports and airports.

Article 55 denies immigrants the right to become federal lawmakers. A Mexican congressman or senator must be "a Mexican citizen by birth." Article 91 further stipulates that immigrants may never aspire to become cabinet officers as they are required to be Mexican by birth. Article 95 says the same about Supreme Court justices.

In accordance with Article 130, immigrants - even legal ones - may not become members of the clergy, either.

Foreigners, to say nothing of illegal immigrants, are denied fundamental property rights. For example, Article 27 states, "Only Mexicans by birth or naturalization and Mexican companies have the right to acquire ownership of lands, waters, and their appurtenances, or to obtain concessions for the exploitation of mines or of waters."

Article 11 guarantees federal protection against "undesirable aliens resident in the country." What is more, private individuals are authorized to make citizen's arrests. Article 16 states, "In cases of flagrante delicto, any person may arrest the offender and his accomplices, turning them over without delay to the nearest authorities." In other words, Mexico grants its citizens the right to arrest illegal aliens and hand them over to police for prosecution. Imagine the Minutemen exercising such a right!

The Mexican constitution states that foreigners - not just illegal immigrants - may be expelled for any reason and without due process. According to Article 33, "the Federal Executive shall have the exclusive power to compel any foreigner whose remaining he may deem inexpedient to abandon the national territory immediately and without the necessity of previous legal action."

The Bottom Line

As the immigration debate in the Senate moves into a decisive phase this week, legislators who believe America's southern border must be secured, the Nation's existing immigration laws enforced and illegal aliens not rewarded with permanent residency and a direct path to citizenship are being sharply criticized and, in some cases, defamed as bigots and xenophobes. Yet, even their maximalist positions generally pale in comparison with the treatment authorized by the Mexican constitution.

So the next time such legislators - and the majority of Americans for whom they speak - are assaulted by Mexican officials, undocumented aliens waving Mexican flags in mass demonstrations here in the United States, clergy and self-described humanitarians, businessmen and other advocates of illegal immigration ask them this: Would they favor having the U.S. impose the same restrictions on immigrants - legal and illegal - that Mexico imposes on their counterparts there?

Nothing of the kind is in the cards, of course. Nor should it be. Legal immigration and the opportunity for foreign investors and other nationals legitimately to contribute to this country are not only one of its hallmarks; they are among the reasons for its greatness.

Still, we should not allow the hypocrisy of others' treatment of undocumented aliens in their countries to induce us to refrain from taking effective steps to prevent further illegal immigration: by building a fence along our southern border; by enforcing immigration laws in the workplace and elsewhere; and by discouraging more such violations - with potentially grave national security implications - by dealing effectively with those who have already broken those laws by coming here without permission.

*************************************

Mexico defends its borders, its people, its culture, and its laws.

WHY DON'T WE?


--Travis--

wingman
April 5, 2006, 05:52 PM
All in favor of trading mexico Jammer Six for another million illegals say eye.:D

Jammer Six
April 5, 2006, 06:06 PM
Jammer why exactly is it right for Mexico to defend its borders
and enforce laws against illegal immigration but it is wrong for
the US to do so?
You want to be like Mexico?

Biker
April 5, 2006, 06:09 PM
No J6, it's not just about legality. There's a lot more involved.
Biker

seeker_two
April 5, 2006, 06:30 PM
All in favor of trading mexico Jammer Six for another million illegals say eye.:D

Talk about the lesser of two evils... :uhoh:

seeker_two
April 5, 2006, 06:33 PM
Jammer why exactly is it right for Mexico to defend its borders
and enforce laws against illegal immigration but it is wrong for
the US to do so?

You want to be like Mexico?

If we go your way, Jammer, we will be... :uhoh:

longeyes
April 5, 2006, 06:44 PM
No worries.

Soon, it will be legal, and this will all go away. They'll be able to walk right across the border, just like a white Canadian.


The problems are just beginning. Fasten your seat belt.

Travis Lee
April 5, 2006, 06:55 PM
Quote:
Jammer why exactly is it right for Mexico to defend its borders
and enforce laws against illegal immigration but it is wrong for
the US to do so?


You want to be like Mexico?


Evasion.

Simple question, answer it.

If you assert that it is wrong for us to expect the law
to be enforced it's up to YOU to justify it.

The US constitution demands the Federal Government to defend the States against foreign invasion, and I don't see how 20 million illegal aliens already here, and 10,000 new border jumpers a day is anything other than an invasion.

Is there any justification for allowing illegal aliens to be here, other than
the hypothetical benefits of cheap labor to be exploited?

Twenty-first century neo-slavery, is what it is.

I think it's morally indefensible.

--Travis--

Lone_Gunman
April 5, 2006, 06:57 PM
The problems are just beginning. Fasten your seat belt.


I agree, and will predict that the next major race riot in Los Angeles will involve hispanic people, and illegal immigration will be the reason for it.

haole_boySS
April 5, 2006, 07:05 PM
I had to sit back and think and realize that i'm not so much upset that illegals don't pay income taxes.....

I'm upset that they are killing our economy. They get paid their tax free wage (some of them) and then run their money back to their country. Very little of their wages are being spent here in the US. Why? Because we all know that the all mighty dollar is worth much much more in Mexico then is is here.
I personally think that is a much greater issue than just not paying taxes.

DRZinn
April 5, 2006, 08:31 PM
The purpose/agenda of Jeb and his fellow pro immigration travelers is to obfuscate the difference between managed legal and unrestricted illegal immigration.You beat me to it. They know that if they can successfully frame the debate as being pro-immigration vs anti-immigration, they can shut down debate and win the day.

MadMag
April 5, 2006, 10:55 PM
Quote: just like a white Canadian.

So Jammer, all this time you have really been talking about racism.

Anyway, the fact remains. Any community that has high illegal influx will always...always have very high property and local taxes to support the welfare system that illegals get for free. A dime saved in labor will cost you thousands of dollars in wefare support. Simply look at the models in Arizona, Texas, and California.

I have said before. Why do you think the Governor of Arizona has said the people of Arizona connot sustain the cost for welfare support of illegals.

pax
April 5, 2006, 10:58 PM
Moderator Note

I hate putting on the moderator hat in a thread I've participated in -- and especially this contentious one! -- but hear this: There will be no more personal jabs in this thread.

Happens again, the thread gets closed ... and the person who did it, banned.

pax

ken grant
April 5, 2006, 11:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.ksfo560.com/Article.asp?PT=&id=111884 :cuss: :fire:

CAnnoneer
April 6, 2006, 01:09 AM
why exactly is it right for Mexico to defend its borders
and enforce laws against illegal immigration but it is wrong for
the US to do so?

Because Vincente has cojones and Jorge has compassion.

brokendreams
April 6, 2006, 04:26 AM
If we all want to change the influx of illegal immigrants in this country, here's how we do it.

a) Everybody who was born here or has legally immigrated needs to show up at a Home Depot in California, Texas or Arizona, at around 5 or 6 am. Then, you need to wait until ANOTHER person who was born here or immigrated legally comes by. Then, bargain yourself down to doing hard manual labor for the lowest price of the group. Instant success! If we take the jobs away, then they'll stop coming!

b) Go to every ethnic food restaurant (Asian, Mexican, Russian, Greek, Thai, Indian, European, etc.) and volunteer to clean the toilets, slop out the fryers, mop, sweep, take abuse from customers. Advise that you will do all this for a couple bucks a day, or, alternatively, enough food to take home and feed your family (when you get home at about 1 or 2 am in the morning, of course). Again:Instant success! If we take the jobs away, then they'll stop coming!

c) Go to the local mega-farms. You know, the ones that pay you like 2 cents a bushel. Take all the jobs from all the damn bastards who are taking the jobs from hard working, red-blooded, american, Hurah, true blue sons-of-bitches who were BORN here (nevermind that 99 percent of ALL our ancestors came here---ILLEGALLY) and pick strawberries for 2 cents a bushel. Instant success! If we take the jobs away, then they'll stop coming!





Give us your poor, your tired, your hungry... But only if they're white and look pretty and speak english.

brokendreams
April 6, 2006, 04:32 AM
Double posting to say this:

My original post is inflamatory and ill-thought out. I have a lot of pent-up aggression on this subject because it seems so... helpless.

Illegal Immigrants in this country DO contribute to the society as a whole. A reform IS needed... Don't give welfare to Illegals. BUT... If they can show that they are working to better themselves, it should be taken into consideration and a temp or perm status should be given.


My thoughts on the subject are confusing even for ME, but I believe that this country would sink without the influx of immigrants to this countrey. Legal and not. They are willing to work harder, for less, than many of our own sons and daughters.



I appologise for venting at everyone in THR, but I don't appologise for what I said.

DRZinn
April 6, 2006, 09:38 AM
We do need cheap unskilled labor. And there should be a legal way for them to provide that labor.

But we have to start with the premise that if you snuck in illegally and thumbed your nose at all the rest of us, native or immigrant, screaming "Viva la Raza!" or whining "You need me," you can go to hell.

First of all, cut off welfare and make the lazy bastards work. That'll take care of some of the cheap unskilled labor right there. Then allow "guest workers" to come in and do the rest, for a limited period of time. One year, I'd say, maximum, and you must reapply. You must be outside the country to apply, originally and for each subsequent application.

Oh, and nice use of the race card there, brokendreams.:rolleyes:

MadMag
April 6, 2006, 09:41 AM
Several times it was pointed out that you can use fake ID’s and pay taxes. My point has always that kind of plan would never really survive if exposed to the general public. Just imagine if one of the Senators proposed a new bill that relied on using fake ID’s. I am sure that would draw criticism from all parties involved.

I think the parts of the new bill that are aimed at having illegal aliens pay back taxes and possible fines is the right direction. And then for them to continue to pay in the future. For me, that has been my main concern…that they support the welfare system they use.

Thin Black Line
April 6, 2006, 11:14 AM
....it looks like disrespect!

longeyes
April 6, 2006, 12:47 PM
We do need cheap unskilled labor. And there should be a legal way for them to provide that labor.

You'd think after 20 million we'd have satisfied that need. What remains mysterious, by design, is how many "guest workers" we would ever really need? I think the number of those jobs is a limited number and is far smaller than the illegal already here or proposed. This is not about satisfying a "real need," it is about ensuring a large and growing supply of cheap labor for ALL jobs. Let's be clear on that.

That said we also need to look inward and do some serious soul-searching about American culture and what all too many of us have become.

wingman
April 6, 2006, 01:05 PM
You'd think after 20 million we'd have satisfied that need. What remains mysterious, by design, is how many "guest workers" we would ever really need? I think the number of those jobs is a limited number and is far smaller than the illegal already here or proposed. This is not about satisfying a "real need," it is about ensuring a large and growing supply of cheap labor for ALL jobs. Let's be clear on that.


In my opinion the above is key to this entire debate, how many is enough.

Like an addict the rich/powers to be will never be satisfied, there concern
is not for the illegal workers or the citizen it is simply greed. The purpose of
uncontrolled immigration is this century will be a huge mistake in American history.

longeyes
April 6, 2006, 01:20 PM
When the Founding Fathers hacked out our testament to political liberty over two centuries ago, were they thinking of how to maximize the number of low-paid workers they could entice from everywhere on earth? Or were they, instead, thinking about the best free life for the INDIVIDUAL? I submit the latter. I doubt they were concerned about the magnitude of sales and earnings. They preferred to magnify the human soul.

DRZinn
April 6, 2006, 04:19 PM
You'd think after 20 million we'd have satisfied that need. What remains mysterious, by design, is how many "guest workers" we would ever really need?It wouldn't nearly as many as we have here now, especially after putting welfare addicts to work.

longeyes
April 6, 2006, 04:20 PM
We should all look long and hard at what went down in the Senate today. If we let anything close to that "compromise" become law, we can kiss America and any vestige of political liberty goodbye.

Thin Black Line
April 6, 2006, 04:50 PM
From:

http://www.newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frosty123.htm

By the time the Roman Empire died in 476 AD, few noticed, few cared and few stood up to do anything about it. If you look at America today, exactly the same events that collapsed the Romans accelerate within our borders in the early part of the 21st century.
...
He writes, "The Romans were deeply embroiled with war in the East the Persian empire. Emperor Valens was forced to admit Gothic hordes. All went well until food supplies ran short and tempers flared. From the Gothic War until the fall of Rome, continuous pressure from the Huns forced more barbarians into the empire. Eventually, the immigrants grew more powerful than existing Roman authority."

Two major conditions caused the loss of Rome: they allowed uncontrolled hostile immigration to dissolve the fabric of their civilization. Immigrants grew more powerful while exercising their own character of their cultures. They did not adopt Roman ways. Second, vast blocks of once Roman lands became foreign held and even the Roman population, once outnumbered, was no match for hostile immigrants.
...
From January 2000 to March 2005, a whopping 7.9 million legal and illegal immigrants settled into the United States. Over half of those immigrants arrived as illegals in that five year period.
...
A glance back at 10,000 fire bombed cars and riots of Paris, France in October and race fights in Sydney, Australia last month should have awakened Americans. However, much like the Roman citizens that laughed and cheered at the weekly games of slaughter in the Coliseum—modern day Americans swill beer while madly pushing their remotes and fill our football stadiums for the weekly mayhem on the gridiron. “It’s happening in Paris, but that’s not America,” one guy told me.

Listen buddy, football is great but if you don’t have a viable society, what do you have? Ask Nero and all who partied while he fiddled and Rome burned.
...
Much like Rome, the great Middle Class of America suffers the invasion first hand, but much like Emperor Valens or Nero, along with the Roman senate, they ignored it until too late. All suffered the loss of their civilization at the end as the hostile immigrant invaders burned Rome.

If you can’t see this thing coming, and most Americans don’t, you will at some point. If you don’t step up and speak out and take action, your children will pay for your lack of courage. If you think the legal immigrants in Paris, France were nasty, just wait until our illegal immigrants spring into action at some point in the future. It’s only going to take a spark to set them off. The ensuing conflagration will place our civilization in the history books right along side Rome’s.

Wow, 7.9 million from 2000-2005! Someone needs to inform the President!

wingman
April 6, 2006, 05:24 PM
Wow, 7.9 million from 2000-2005! Someone needs to inform the President!


I suspect he was holding the gate open.:rolleyes:

Jammer Six
April 6, 2006, 05:38 PM
When the Founding Fathers hacked out our testament to political liberty over two centuries ago, were they thinking of how to maximize the number of low-paid workers they could entice from everywhere on earth? Or were they, instead, thinking about the best free life for the INDIVIDUAL?
Neither. They had slaves.

Check the calendar. Times have changed.

Travis Lee
April 6, 2006, 05:47 PM
Yup.

$3 per hour, 14 hour days, no holidays, no benefits,
and the threat of legal action if they get uppity.

Cheap labor... that's what it's all about.

Times haven't changed that much.

Twenty first century neo-slavery.


--Travis--

Art Eatman
April 6, 2006, 06:29 PM
And around and around on the road to nowhere...

Art

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