NFA ownership questions


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beerslurpy
April 2, 2006, 05:37 PM
I live in Hernando County Florida, which apparently has a somewhat anti-gun sheriff. I didnt know this because Florida state doesnt give local governments much authority to do anything gun related and presumably because he doesnt go out of his way to antagonize gun owners.

However, Form 4 transfers do require CLEO signoff, which he categorically refuses to give.

Question 1:
In Florida, where do you go for NFA signoffs if your local sheriff isnt cooperative?

Question 2:
What forums and associations can people join for exchanging such information and also lobbying for better laws?

Question 3:
How much upkeep is involved in using a corporation to hold your NFA guns? This would allow me to ignore any of the fingerprint or signoff requirements, but I would be afraid of it being a burden to keep the corporation running each year. If I can just found it at let it sit, that would be ideal.

thanks guys

-jim

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eastwood44mag
April 2, 2006, 05:40 PM
CLEO isn't necessarily a sheriff. It can be chief of police, or a judge with arrest power, among others. That's all I know about it. When in doubt, call the ATF and have them explain it.

beerslurpy
April 2, 2006, 06:15 PM
What I really need is a Florida specific list of what the hierarchy is. Or is there not specific hierarchy of people I have to ask? I can just directly approach anyone valid?

AmYisraelChai
April 2, 2006, 06:32 PM
Their is no florida hiarchy. The ATF sets that. They more or less make it up as they go. You need a Sheriff, Chief of Police or Judge that presides over Felony cases.These must be from the jurisdiction in which you have A RESIDENCE (If you own other property, you can get that Jurisdiction to sign off as well) If none of them will sign, you can petition the ATF for another list of people. This will often include The DA or a federal Judge. You can not go to these people until you petition the ATF and they say it is OK. This will take a year or so.


Or you can form a Corporation. LLC is the most popular right now. You can form the corporation for the soul intent of holding NFA investment assets. It is not that complicated, just paperwork.

Seriously, I have said it before and I will say it again. Owning a small resturant is MUCH more of a hastle than NFA stuff. In a Resturant you have far more laws, agencies and oversight. The only difference is the penalties for messing up with NFA stuff are a lot stiffer in most cases.

All it is is paper work, time and money. There is nothing really complicated or mythical about it.

beerslurpy
April 2, 2006, 06:37 PM
It is complicated and mythical compared to exercising the right to freedom of speech or religion.

Also, I dont yet have experience/schooling in the legal aspect of corporate entitites, so I am very afraid of making a missstep and losing thousands of dollars worth of toys because my corporation gets invalidated due to a paperwork mistake.

AmYisraelChai
April 2, 2006, 07:28 PM
You corporation wont be invalidated. if the State grants you your articals of incorporation, you have a corporation. It is a Shall issue system. If you apply, they have to issue. You are worrying about the wrong things.

If The state grants you corporation (They have to) and the ATF approves your NFA transfer (If you qualify they have to) You dont have anything to worry about. Seriously. It is not that big of a deal. you are far more likely to be killed in a car wreck THIS WEEK than to have any problems over all of this stuff if you just jump through the clearly defined hoops.

This is it....................

Form a Florida LLC
Florida Limited Liability Company (LLC)
General Incorporation Requirement to form a LLC:
A LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANY is a hybrid form of business entity combining some of the attributes of a corporation with the status of a partnership.

Any entity that transacts business in Florida as a limited liability company is required by Florida Statutes to file Articles of Organization or an application for authorization with the Division and pay the filing fee. These documents must be typewritten or printed legibly in the English language. The professional advice of your legal counsel to ascertain exact compliance with all statutory requirements is strongly recommended.

All limited liability companies must file a Uniform Business Report with the Division each year between January 1 and May 1 and pay the filing fee. Failure to file will result in administrative dissolution of the limited liability company or loss of authorization to transact business in Florida as a foreign limited liability company.

Basic Information Required to File Florida Limited Liability Company Documents

Articles of Organization containing the following information.

The name of the limited liability company, which must end with the words “limited liability company” or “limited company” or their abbreviation “L.L.C.”, “L.C.”, “LLC”, or “LC”. (The word “limited” may be abbreviated as “Ltd.” and the word “company” may be abbreviated as “Co.”)


The mailing address and the street address of the principal office of the limited liability company


The name and Florida street address of the limited liability company’s registered agent. The registered agent must sign and state that he/she is familiar with and accepts the obligations of the position.


The Articles of Organization must be executed by at least one member or authorized representative of a member. The execution of the document constitutes an affirmation under the penalties of perjury that the facts stated therein are true.


(Optional) If an effective date is listed, the date must be specific and can not be more than five business days prior to or 90 days after the date of filing.

Hkmp5sd
April 2, 2006, 07:46 PM
There are several things you can do regarding the CLEO.

1. Contact ATF and ask them who they will accept in Florida. They can allow certain judges, district attorneys, state police chiefs, and in some cases they have allowed the local FBI Senior Agent or ATF agent sign. The director of ATF can authorize anyone he desires.

2. As the sheriff is a political animal, threaten him AND the county commission with lawsuits. Get a lawyer and let him rattle their cage. Make sure they know that the CLEO in no way makes them liable for your actions with the NFA item AND you can get a LLC, so there is no way they can stop you from obtaining it either. It is REALLY good if you can find some friend and/or rich/powerful person that the sheriff signed off for. The Polk County sheriff's office keeps copies of all ATF forms the CLEO signs, perhaps Hernando does also. Your lawyer can find out.

3. HERE (http://www.accessincorp.com/corpfaq.htm) is a place to check with on forming a corportation. You do not have to form one in Florida. This company will form a corporation for you in Delaware, which is one of the best states to form one. By incorporating there, you are not required to have any capital, there are no taxes on out of state corps, one person can serve as ALL corporation officers and after forming, this company will do the annual paperwork to keep it going for you for only a $100/year fee.

beerslurpy
April 2, 2006, 11:06 PM
Please reconcile these two statements

You corporation wont be invalidated. if the State grants you your articals of incorporation, you have a corporation. It is a Shall issue system. If you apply, they have to issue. You are worrying about the wrong things.


All limited liability companies must file a Uniform Business Report with the Division each year between January 1 and May 1 and pay the filing fee. Failure to file will result in administrative dissolution of the limited liability company or loss of authorization to transact business in Florida as a foreign limited liability company.

So in order to BUY an item that is perfectly legal in FL, I have to form a corporation and file paperwork and fees each year for the rest of my life or I lose that perfectly legal item? That is what it sounds like to me.

Hkmp5sd
April 2, 2006, 11:56 PM
for the rest of my life or I lose that perfectly legal item?

Yep. If the corporation closes, you must transfer all NFA items. If at some point in the future you get a CLEO that will sign and you want to transfer the NFA items from the corp to yourself, you have to pay all of the transfer taxes again.

beerslurpy
April 3, 2006, 12:08 AM
This is very unreasonable. When did the LEO signoff get enacted? Was it part of the original NFA, or was it part of the 68 GCA?

Is there any way to have a corporation without the yearly fee or the yearly paperwork?

Is there a list of counties where the LEOs will do signoffs?

AmYisraelChai
April 3, 2006, 02:24 AM
Again, It is hoops. Jump through them and you will be just fine. If you owned microsoft would you be worried about a once a year filing to keep the party rolling?

I am just trying to make you less fearful of the whole deal. As far as types of corporations go, They all require an annual filling to the best of my knowledge.

As far as a cleo who will sign listing, I dont know, For the most part that is not the kind of thing they advertise. You have to know that through word of mouth or asking them. It also has to be a person for a jurasdiction you own property in.

I agree it is a pain and unconstitutional, I wont argue with you over that one bit. But for now it is what it is. While it is not enough, there are ways to do it, you just have to decide if it is worth it. My only advice would be what I have been saying so far, It is not that big a deal. Most peoples taxes are more complicated, and you have to do that once a year.

beerslurpy
April 3, 2006, 03:13 AM
That is true. I'm sorry for being argumentative. I will begin the search for a signoff, starting with contacting the ATF on monday.

wdlsguy
April 3, 2006, 07:31 PM
It is my understanding that a trust can own an NFA weapon. It isn't terribly difficult to create a living trust.

http://www.nolo.com/resource.cfm/catID/9F594B71-B41B-4513-923BF19B4D9ACDAA/309/227

Jim K
April 3, 2006, 07:45 PM
The CLEO signoff is an a** covering exercise by BATFE. They realistically can't know the law of every county or little town, so they ask the CLEO to sign stating that acquiring that gun by that person will not violate the local law. But many CLEO's see that as granting a permit for NFA weapon ownership and refuse to sign. They are also afraid that they could be liable for any action of the weapon owner if they do sign. Neither is the case, and there have been court cases in which the CLEO statement was held to be nothing more than the Form 4 states, not a permit or an assumption of liability.

One approach that has worked is to have an attorney (the more prominent the better) write the sheriff, pointing out that he is merely signing a statement about the law, not granting a permit. You can also work to get that sheriff unelected. In one case I heard of (I can't cite chapter and verse) a FOIA request got papers showing the sheriff had signed for his relatives, contributors to his political campaign and people who paid bribes, but refused to sign for others. The sheriff resigned under fire and almost went to prison. The new sheriff was more reasonable.

Jim

beerslurpy
April 6, 2006, 12:29 AM
I'm making a trust right now. Trusts are apparently the answer to every concern I had.

Small up front cost.
No recurring fees or taxes.
No recurring paperwork to avoid dissolution.
No CLEO signoff, prints or photos.

WIN WIN WIN. I was going to do an LLC for 50 bucks a year when I found a local 03 SOT who referred me to a guy who has done trusts for other guys for NFA stuff for several years now. The rumors of the ATF not allowing trusts (AR15.com) are apparently false.

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