Okay Kansas folk ... time to start making noise


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Zundfolge
April 5, 2006, 01:14 AM
The new Kansas CCW law has a goofy sign provision, and it looks like the blissninnies who own many businesses (a lot of them banks) are already promising to make their businesses Victim Disarmament Zones.

source (http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/14257591.htm)
New law leaves Wichita businesses gun-shy
Banks and sports bars are reviewing their firearms policies before Kansas' concealed-carry law takes effect Jan. 1.
BY NICHOLAS JUNGMAN
The Wichita Eagle

Some local businesses are making plans to ban concealed weapons on their premises when a new state law goes into effect Jan. 1. In particular, many banks and sports bars say they will post signs that make clear their customers can't bring guns inside.

"We are not going to allow weapons in Champs Bar & Grill," said Dennis Lanham, owner of the sports bar at 1106 S. Seneca. "Alcohol and guns do not mix."

The new law recognizes that opinion, to a degree. Passed March 23 by the Kansas Legislature over Gov. Kathleen Sebelius' veto, the law lists drinking establishments as one of 21 venues where concealed weapons are prohibited.

But the law makes an exception for drinking establishments that are also restaurants. If a bar generates at least 30 percent of its sales from food, it's a restaurant under state law, and a person with the proper permit could carry a concealed weapon there. Most of Wichita's sports bars qualify as restaurants.

However, the law also allows individual businesses of any type to ban weapons at their own discretion simply by posting signs at their entrances.

Champs Bar & Grill plans to exercise that discretion.

Lanham, the Champs owner, says he's not a fan of the concealed-carry law, but he'll adapt to it. He's planning not only to post signs banning guns, but to have a gun locker where patrons can check their weapons.

"You know, just like the old Western days," Lanham said.

Tina Rose, bar manager at Heroes Sports Bar in Old Town, said her restaurant wants to keep guns out but isn't sure that simply posting a sign prohibiting them will have much effect.

"How are we to know if they're not concealing and carrying?" she asked.

So if Heroes does decide to ban guns, Rose said, it may go the extra step of doing pat-down searches of customers on its busiest nights.

"It's one thing that's in the back of our minds," Rose said. "But we'll cross that bridge when we come to it."

On the other hand, Dave Chaffin, owner of Players Sports Bar at 6200 W. 21st St., said that, although he doesn't like concealed-carry, he's assuming it won't be a problem.

"In 23 years, I've never seen a firearm in this place," he said, "and I don't expect to see one in the next 23 years."

Banks are another business sensitive about guns, and some are wrestling with what their policy should be.

Diane Iseman, vice president for corporate communications at Intrust Bank, said the bank already has a clear policy that would prohibit a bank employee from carrying a firearm at work.

But, she said, the bank will have to consider what its policy will be for customers' firearms.

"That will definitely be under review here," she said.

Teri Ginther, executive vice president at Emprise Bank, said that because banks are always at risk for robbery, they need a firm policy on concealed weapons. But the bank hasn't decided yet what that policy should be.

In the past, Ginther said, bankers' instincts have been to get anyone with a weapon out of the bank as quickly as possible. She worries that if customers begin carrying concealed weapons into branches, one of them someday will witness a robbery and try to get involved.

"My greatest fear is that someone will take the law into their own hands," Ginther said.

Still, she isn't sure whether posting a ban is the answer.

Local banks could take their cues from area banks that do business in states that already allow concealed weapons.

Both Commerce Bank and Bank of the West will prohibit weapons at their Kansas branches, spokespeople said, just as they do in other states.

Commerce Bank's director of security, Chuck Mansell, has dealt with the issue in the bank's home state of Missouri.

There, Commerce Bank branches have signs at their entrances advising customers that they cannot bring their weapons inside, Mansell said, and similar signs will go up at Kansas branches.

Mansell said he thinks the signs work.

"Generally, we believe all law-abiding citizens will abide by our request," he said, noting that no Commerce facility had ever had an incident involving a customer's concealed weapon.

Reach Nick Jungman at (316) 268-6467 or njungman@wichitaeagle.com



Time to start contacting local businesses and letting them know that if your guns aren't allowed than neither is your money.

Ohioans have been passing out these little cards:
https://www.ohioccw.org/catalog/images/no_guns_cards.gif
Some enterprising Kansan should start printing them up and passing them out.

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Car Knocker
April 5, 2006, 01:55 AM
Is there a legal penalty for carrying in a business that has signage, a bank, for instance?

Wastemore
April 5, 2006, 02:59 AM
I really like those cards.

Thylacine
April 5, 2006, 06:07 AM
I like those cards too. :) Of course we need a site to place the "do not patronize" list.

I am going to try to make one.

WeedWhacker
April 5, 2006, 07:29 AM
First off, if you're carrying a _concealed_ weapon, who would know to press charges? Secondly, the consequences likely differ from state to state, except when it involves federal, government, or school buildings/areas, though I am still not clear of the consequences for the latter three. (I don't oft frequent them.)

I understand it to be the case in many states that carrying a concealed weapon contrary to the posted wishes of the owner, it is considered trespassing.

Is a potential charge of tresspassing (in some states, if you suck at keeping your CCW *concealed*) worth your ability to protect your life and likely the lives of your fellow citizens?

TexasRifleman
April 5, 2006, 08:22 AM
Is a potential charge of tresspassing (in some states, if you suck at keeping your CCW *concealed*) worth your ability to protect your life and likely the lives of your fellow citizens?

While I agree with your sentiment, we had better luck in Texas by attacking their wallets. Economic boycotting of places that post will work. Continuing to do business with companies that clearly do not have your best interests in mind makes no sense, whether you keep "concealed" or not.

This happened in Texas early on, everyone was posting the signs. At this point, at least in the Dallas/Ft Worth area, I have not seen a sign posted anywhere I go in at least 2 years. Calling, letter writing, and those little cards WILL work.

Good luck Kansas, and congrats!

Don't Tread On Me
April 5, 2006, 09:01 AM
Bah... don't sweat it. ALL states went through this when concealed carry passed. Initially, there is this surge of a few extremist businesses that want to show their opposition to the law. It will settle down. Over time, many will just abandon their policies.

Now, there will always be a few that cling on to their anti-concealed carry policy forever. That's their right. But it's your right not to give them a cent of your money.

In Florida, there is no law against carrying in a business that prohibits concealed carry. The best they can do is ask you to leave. If you refuse, the police can only charge you with tresspassing for refusing to leave.

As a few people mentioned in this thread - if it is concealed carry, how would they know in the first place? Almost no one runs metal detectors as belts, keys and everything else would set them off. Now, if they found out, it would most likely mean that someone saw you, that means you printed, or you exposed yourself which in some states can be considered brandishing.

So who cares what these anti-gun extremists think or say. You can either choose not to patronize their business, or you can just ignore their unenforceable, impotent policy.

foghornl
April 5, 2006, 10:14 AM
Just before the Ohio CCW law passed, we were having "Open Carry Walks"...exactly what it sounds like. People walking in areas with their handguns openly displayed. Even had one on the block around Guv. Booby Daft's residence..right before the CCW law went to his desk for signature.

Had one in a nearby city (Medina, IIRC, near Akron) 'Public Square'. Lots of Open Carry walkers. Some [ahem] bright store owner put up the usual "No Guns" sign, and then after a bit, saw how much business he was losing to the unposted places, by the numbers of folks NOT entering his store.
Sign came down in less than an hour.

beerslurpy
April 5, 2006, 10:20 AM
I dont know, we have a GUN RANGE here in clearwater that I refuse to patronize because they ban concealed carry. (Knight's Shooting Sports). I mean, if they dont trust civilians with guns, why do they sell them to us?

Zundfolge
April 5, 2006, 11:30 AM
Of course we need a site to place the "do not patronize" list.

http://www.ksconcealedcarry.com/

Thylacine, the attached PDF file should work with Avery 8876 business card sheets you run through your printer.

cropcirclewalker
April 5, 2006, 03:17 PM
We have 2 banks in my town. One is posted, the other is not.

I keep my accounts in the one that is not posted. I get my copies of targets in the other one. 5 cents per is the cheapest around.

Missouri can only ask one to leave, otherwise it's not a crime, so I carry into the posted bank, run my copies, pay the lady, smile and leave.

KS as I understand is a non person class a misdemeanor to pack into a restricted place. I further think that carrying without the permission slip is the same level of offense.

Stay the heck out of KS posted places, but be sure to drop off a card.

Ezekiel
April 5, 2006, 03:28 PM
If it's private property, "let'em post."

Actually, I feel that way regarding all states.

(The only folks who get upset about this are the ones who would like to carry an AK-47 into a nursery.)

"Private property" superseeds a variety of public "rights", no?

Hell, I'm looking most forward into determining who can -- and cannot -- carry on my property: such goes with the concept of having paid for it.

foghornl
April 5, 2006, 03:28 PM
SOME bank chains in Ohio are posted "No Guns"

The Fifth Third Bank chain was the first in Ohio to post....minutes after Guv Booby Daft signed the bill into law. Guess which bank chain is the Most Often Robbed in Ohio ? ? ? ? :confused: :confused:



You got that right...Fifth Third Bank

El Tejon
April 5, 2006, 03:38 PM
foghorn, then why is it that Fifth Third posts "no gun" signs in Ohio but here in Indiana no such signs exist despite the fact that Hoosiers have been carrying before the existence of Fifth Third bank???:confused:

Why are they afraid of Buckeyes, but indifferent to us?

Henry Bowman
April 5, 2006, 03:40 PM
I dont know, we have a GUN RANGE here in clearwater that I refuse to patronize because they ban concealed carry. (Knight's Shooting Sports). CCW is not a sport. So many with the "sport" mentality don't get it and never will.

Henry Bowman
April 5, 2006, 03:41 PM
Why are they afraid of Buckeyes, but indifferent to us?Not sure why, but they clearly are.

Azrael256
April 5, 2006, 03:57 PM
The only folks who get upset about this are the ones who would like to carry an AK-47 into a nursery And what, exactly, is wrong with an AK-47 in a nursery? Does the presence of a large number of very young children somehow make the establishment immune from crime? I rather like the idea of armed guards hanging around with my children. It's why I carry.

We get upset about it, but we, as a group, are unwilling to support legislation that forces a private property owner to do pretty much anything. We do, however, support the idea of refusing to patronize businesses that post. To force it through legislation is totalitarianism. To force it through our own economic choices is the free market. If somebody want's to post, that's their business. I will take mine elsewhere.

Zundfolge
April 5, 2006, 04:25 PM
If it's private property, "let'em post."

Actually, I feel that way regarding all states.

"Private property" superseeds a variety of public "rights", no?

And I have just as much a right to not patronize places with signs ... and since most businesses are not in business to make political statements but rather to attract customers and separate them from their money, it only makes sense that we who carry should make it a point to let businesses know that their political position could cost them customers.


At any rate I don't see anywhere where I called for legislation or for the state to interfere with these idiots "rights".


(The only folks who get upset about this are the ones who would like to carry an AK-47 into a nursery.)
Wow ... wonderful use of a strawman flavored nicely with a pinch of hyperbole :rolleyes:

Thylacine
April 5, 2006, 04:36 PM
Thank you Zundfolge !

I do not want to dictate. I just want the ones that put the sign up, and that I do wish to do business, to understand why they lost my business. Private property is just that in my view. You can post the signs if you want to do so. I just want to point out "why" I am no longer patronizing them.

Thylacine
April 5, 2006, 04:52 PM
"Double Tap" Board kinda glitched on me. Sorry for the Double Post. So here is a picture to fill this post.http://www.teamlahunt.gbsoftware.com/Graphics/mine2.jpg

Steve 48
April 5, 2006, 05:01 PM
Those business's that post a sign for no carry will loose my money. I think in time the fear will fade and their greed for money will prevail. Steve 48

DonP
April 5, 2006, 05:13 PM
The Bank lady said:

"My greatest fear is that someone will take the law into their own hands," Ginther said."

She's terrified of an armed, law abiding citizen possibly defending themselves or another in one of their branches.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if someone is robbing the bank haven't they ALREADY taken the law into their own hands?

Having a robber with a "sawed off" pointed at the face of one of your tellers is somehow safer to her than a citizen that might be carrying in your bank?

What alternative universe does she live in?

Cellar Dweller
April 5, 2006, 09:15 PM
Tina Rose, bar manager at Heroes Sports Bar in Old Town, said her restaurant wants to keep guns out but isn't sure that simply posting a sign prohibiting them will have much effect.

"How are we to know if they're not concealing and carrying?" she asked.

So if Heroes does decide to ban guns, Rose said, it may go the extra step of doing pat-down searches of customers on its busiest nights.

Wouldn't that open them up to lawsuits, in that yes they can post signs but unless EVERYONE gets a patdown, there can be a pattern of discrimination? Soccer dad gets a pass, biker guy gets a patdown, attractive young lady in skimpy outfit gets a doubleplusgood complimentary patdown, "unattractive" woman (over 30/has kids in tow/not a "hottie" yo!) gets a pass, certain minorities ALWAYS get patdowns, etc.

Of course patdowns will last only until business drops off or until the first suit gets filed, but still...

I wonder if Tina Rose will allow me to pat her down because I can't tell if her and her staff aren't "concealing and carrying."

Zundfolge
April 5, 2006, 09:51 PM
I've been to Hero's on a friday night (hated the place ... not a fan of sports bars). They ain't patting everyone down going into that place, its HUGE and would slow the stampede to the bar thus cutting into their profits.

On the other hand, Dave Chaffin, owner of Players Sports Bar at 6200 W. 21st St., said that, although he doesn't like concealed-carry, he's assuming it won't be a problem.

"In 23 years, I've never seen a firearm in this place," he said, "and I don't expect to see one in the next 23 years."
I've got news for you there Davy ... you never saw my firearm but its been in your crappy overpriced obnoxious sports bar on several occasions when I lived in ICT :neener:

tulsamal
April 5, 2006, 10:31 PM
In Florida, there is no law against carrying in a business that prohibits concealed carry. The best they can do is ask you to leave. If you refuse, the police can only charge you with tresspassing for refusing to leave.

That's exactly the way it is in OK. They are free to put up their signs. We are free to ignore them.

Local banks could take their cues from area banks that do business in states that already allow concealed weapons.

Both Commerce Bank and Bank of the West will prohibit weapons at their Kansas branches, spokespeople said, just as they do in other states.

Commerce Bank's director of security, Chuck Mansell, has dealt with the issue in the bank's home state of Missouri.

There, Commerce Bank branches have signs at their entrances advising customers that they cannot bring their weapons inside, Mansell said, and similar signs will go up at Kansas branches.

Mansell said he thinks the signs work.

I stopped and thought about it the first time I started to go into a bank armed and there was a sign on the door. I went home and got out my CCW book from my OK class. Nope, banks weren't listed as out-of-bounds. So yes, the signs work. If by that you mean people's eyes can read them. But they don't stop people from carrying in your bank! They MAY keep them from opening an account in your bank but that's about it. I opened my account at the bank in Vinita that doesn't have up such signs.

Gregg

Ezekiel
April 5, 2006, 11:25 PM
And what, exactly, is wrong with an AK-47 in a nursery?

Pretty simple: If my kid is in the nursery, I don't want your AK-47 anywhere near him.

"I don't know you, get bent." [edit: not specifying anyone in particular on THR, merely offering a generalization of my manner of thought regarding "untrained" hands in possession of a semi-automatic rifle near babies. Yuck.]

If you are akin to the rest of society, I wouldn't trust you with a TOOTHPICK near my kid. (Not that I have any.)

That being said, I think, is the entire issue with CCW across America: John Q. is a dumbass.

Desertdog
April 6, 2006, 12:28 AM
Maybe the pro-gun groups can get together and run some public service announcements giving name and address of the businesses the are posted and refer customers to the safer businesses that are not posted.:rolleyes:

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