[wun_8_seven]

ok this is kinda related to my 30 carbine thread. heres the senerio, i live in okc but my family has land in western okla. used mostly for hunting. so i head out there last weekend to turkey hunt. i've got a kahr mk9,12 guage rem 870 & bushmaster varmiteer with 4-12 leupold with me for coyotes. i pull in just after dark and notice the barn has been broken into with somethings stolen. so i park the jeep around back of the house and go to bed. about 2am i hear a pick up running & look out to see it backed up to the barn, its dark but i make out 3 people. i grab the bushy and turn on the light down by the barn( 40yards from house) when they start firing at me with what turned out to be a 22. they jump in the truck with one guy in the back shooting at the house as they tear down the drive(80yards long) so i've got the guy in my scope when i realize i can see the nieghbors porch light in the scope 3/4 mile away so i don't shoot. so your suggestions on a carbine & caliber that wouldn't be a danger to rural neighbors at those distances or will any round carry to far to be safe? 187

[BusMaster007]

Did you report this incident to the Police?

[wun_8_seven]

yes i reported it to the county sheriff. and they said they'll look into it. also the deputy said you should've popped the guy. 187

[Art Eatman]

For that particular scenario, changing rifle/cartridge wouldn't matter. The problem is the aiming, without having to worry about hitting a neighbor if you miss the bad guy.

In other words, you should have carried your swing on a little further, not firing until the neighbor was out of the line of sight.

At 3/4 mile, the .223 bullet is no more dangerous than something like a .357 or .44; these last are no less dangerous at that distance than the .223.

Overall, I'd take the Bushie for its greater accuracy...

Art

[wun_8_seven]

art, the drive is kinda L shaped and the only shot i would've had before they got behind trees was when the neighbors house was in the line of fire, i was thinking maybe the 30 carbine or say a 357carbine might be less likely to penetrate the walls of the house a that distance. so thanks for the info. 187

[Art Eatman]

3/4 mile is 1,320 yards. Shooting fairly close to the horizontal means it's likely that neither a .223 bullet nor a .357 bullet would get to that house. (This doesn't mean I'd blithely take such a shot, with any house in the background. I'm just talking probabilities.) Any ricochet at that distance would have little penetrating ability. "Little" does not mean "none".

I'd say you did right by not shooting, frustrating though it was. Property loss doesn't justify the hazard to a neighbor from poor judgement.

Sad thing is, you almost have to pre-plan a shooting position, but for an event that likely won't happen again...

Art

[Andrew Wyatt]

is the bushy one of the heavy barrel jobs with a free float tube and no sights?


if so, you might consider picking up a 16 inch barrel upper for it.

[Redlg155]

i've got the guy in my scope when i realize i can see the nieghbors porch light in the scope 3/4 mile away so i don't shoot.

You did good by not shooting if you weren't 100 percent comfortable with the shot. You can never retrieve a bad shot.

Weapons choice wasn't a problem. It was just a bad situation.

That's a long driveway..they might want to consider a vehicle gate to restrict unauthorized access to the property.

Good Shooting
Red

[Duke of Lawnchair]

I'll second, and third, and fourth everything that our fellow members have said.

Important thing is, you came out without a scratch.

[cpileri]

Sounds like a night vision device would've allowed visualization of the neighbor's home, and thus a safe shot.

Otherwise, holding fire was the right thing to do.
C-

[wun_8_seven]

andrew, its a flat top with a 24" fluted barrel.and i think i'll look for a 16" upper. red, there is a gate at the end of the drive,but the oil pumper wont close it. also its had about 20 locks on it but someone keeps cutting them off. 187

[foghornl]

Before going inside for the night, maybe a few nail-studded 2x4's thrown down in the driveway just short of the barn.........

Nah, if the crooks got a couple of flat tires, they would probably sue you for not being able to conduct their normal business, or some such steaming pile of..........


Maybe putting in some sort of motion detectors (X-10 Control types or others) to let you know when someone is moving on your property

[benEzra]

One possible option would be to use the Bushie with 40-grain JHP's. Because they are so lightweight and have a lousy ballistic coefficient, they shed velocity quickly and would be much less dangerous at a great distance. (They're also less likely to penetrate a wall.)

Having said that, you probably did well to hold the shot. The deputy would've obviously been OK with it if you had fired, but you never know what your local DA might do with it. ('Course if you're being shot at, you'd have a pretty good argument if you thought you were in real danger.)

[MolonLabe416]

Not shooting was the correct response.

Shooting at a moving vehicle is not legal in most states, even if you are being fired upon. Check with an attorney who know's your state law. Don't rely on the deputy for this information.

Even if it is legal, it would be hard to defend. "You used your evil assault rifle to maim my sunday school attending client who feared for his life when he saw you menace him with an assault rifle just like the army uses. He was so scared he accidently discarged his puny little .22 from a great range. You knew you were safe from such a tiny round, after all you must be a militia expert to have such a deadly, powerful assualt sniper rifle and the skill to hit a moving target way over there. BS, BS, BS." You get my drift.

Getting behind cover is always priorty number one. The object of a gun fight is not to get shot, though some mistakenly believe it's to shoot the goblin. A .22 can kill you stone dead much further away than you might think.

Even though it is very unlikely that your round would have hit your neighbor's house, or someone in it, remember that you are responsible for the final resting place of every round you fire.

You did a good job remembering Rule 4 (Know your target and what is beyond). Seeing the house and making the split-second decision not to engage was well done.

[JohnKSa]

1. I applaud you on your situational awareness. Both on detecting the break-in rather than blindly walking into the scene unarmed, and on realizing that you needed to hold your fire to prevent endangering your neighbors.

Both are impressive--particularly the latter. I would venture to bet that most people wouldn't have picked up on a detail like that while under fire.

2. You should immediately abandon the idea that you can pick a solid projectile firearm that will be safe at 3/4 of a mile. Even a .22 can travel that far and still have enough oomph to kill the extremely unlucky person who happens to be in front of it.

You might take a look at a combat style shotgun. I've heard some good things about relatively long-range performance with buckshot and specialized chokes. Pretty ineffective against a vehicle, I would think, though.

Other than that, it's going to be a matter of pre-selecting fields of fire and trying to manipulate the situation so you can cut loose without worry. I don't think you should go to a lighter projectile in view of the fact that you will likely be dealing with a vehicle again and might like the extra penetration that a heavier projectile would provide.

One other thought. A stakeout (or video surveillance) to determine who's cutting the locks might be very productive--I don't believe in coincidences.

[QuarterBoreGunner]

Ok first off... ***? Damn that's a serious situation you were in.

2nd. Good call on holding the shot.

3rd. I'd look into a shotgun; scattergun tech or vangcomp would be a good start.

And hey man? You did good under fire; not many can say that.

Well done.

[Covey Rise]

No way they will make it past 200 yards, unless you use it like a mortar, still doubt it would make 3/4 mile. Plus when that big ole slug hits their truck, some serious damage will result. Make sure you have some good cover to shoot from so your chance of getting shot is far less. You might load some buckshot behind it too, it's only lethal to 50, but it would mess up the window good, and make it easy for the sheriff to identify the truck.

[curt]

I agree with everone else you did right by not shooting. I don't think a SG would have been the answer given the range. I don't understand a couple of things tho: they started shooting at the house when the barn light turned on? Also your county sheriff sounds kind of lackadaisical, i mean thieves start blasting away at someones house and he's going to "look into it"?

Sounds like you need better access control on your driveway (locks keep getting cut?) and motion detector lights and maybe some kind of alarm system on your barn.

Man, sometimes i feel safer in the city.

[Newton]

Shotgun with 00 Buck. If you can't reach out and touch them with that they are too far away anyway.

The lethality of those projectiles falls off significantly beyond 100 yards. You'll never eliminate the risk of a wild shot but you can reduce it significantly by using a shotgun with an appropriate shot size.

I don't see the M1 Carbine as being significantly different from the Bushie in this situation.

Newton

[wun_8_seven]

i'm a medically retired leo, and don't see any problem with the legality if i had fired. this is family land that is only used during hunting seasons with us leaving 3 hours away the rest of the time. as for boards with nails, i never no when another family member may show up after dark and run over one, so thats out. its a big county with few leo's so i'm sure my recreational land thats only used a couple months a year isn't thier big priority. 187

[Onslaught]

:what:

Man, you guys out in the boonies do have some serious gunfights! I have a buddy who's house was fired on by two guys with an AK47. They were driving down the road, shooting from their car into the woods, not even considering that there were houses off beyond those trees. (He had the % to get in his truck and follow them to a gas station, all the while talking to 911 on his cell. The guys didn't know he was behind them, and were caught without incident :D )

Anyway, very impressive restraint on your part. Were my house (with my baby girl inside) being actively fired upon, with my Bushy in hand, I am fairly certain I would NOT have done the same.

I agree that a 16" upper would be the best option for a similar scenario. You've already got the ammo, mags, etc... so I can't think of a better way to go. Maybe one of the new "M4" Dissipators, to keep the longer eye relief of the Dissy but lighter weight of the M4 profile barrel.

My first thought was "ah, the chances of this happening again are astronomical" but then I remembered you were "rural", and things just always seem to go down differently waaaay out where people know that the Sheriff could takes 30 minutes to respond. Those guys could very well come back.

[firestar]

Man that is nuts! I'm glad I am not you. I really don't know what I would have done but I think your 870 12 is a great place to start. Load it with slugs or buckshot and you are good out to 75 yards or so. I used to be able to hit a pop can with every shot out of my Ithaca 37 12ga and it wasn't even rifled. A shot gun can do more than most people think, I have seen people with scoped and rifled shot guns shoot really tight groups (3-4") at 100 yards, it amazed me but they can really shoot.

It sounds like you are more worried about the bullet carrying too far than anything else, that is why the 12ga is a good choice. The bad thing is limited shots, you may need more than 4-5 shots to do what you want to do. My second choice would be an AK or a SKS. The 7.62 won't shoot as flat as the .223 so it might be safer.

[Kobun]

If you have a zero at 200 yards, the bullet will drop like 100" in 600 yards.
I doubt the bullet would reach your neighbour if you were shooting horisontaly.

Maby you can have something like this laying by your drive:
http://us.st3.yimg.com/store5.yimg.com/I/botach_1733_8906563

Have a long cord hocked up to it, and you can pull it across the drive when you feel like not letting anyone in or out.

[Byron Quick]

Two suggestions:

1) Rifled slug gun. Practice with it. I've seen a buddy kill deer at 90 yards with one.

2) Kobun's mention on ballistics. Know the ballistics of your ammo. I think that if you consider the zero of your rifle, the ballistics of your ammo, the distance to your target, and the distance to the neighbor's house that the bullet's point of impact would have been far short of the house.




However, in the circumstances, you did real good. Shame that the burglars got away.

Shooting at a moving vehicle is not legal in most states, even if you are being fired upon.

That must be a liberal state thingie. Never heard of such in Georgia or South Carolina.

[Kobun]

Learn your ballistics:
Norma ballistic calculator. (http://www.norma.cc/htm_files/javapagee.htm)
Sierra bullets ballistic data (http://www.sierrabullets.com/bullets/index.cfm?fuseaction=Ballistic) for use with the ballistic calculator.

With these two things, you can figure out how your bullets will act in flight.

K.

[Gordon]

If somebodie opened fire on me at my Ranchito, and it sounds about like yours in situation; I think it would be hard to prosecute your actions IF a body with their gun which had been discharged and forensic evidence of bullets hitting around your position were found. That said my walk around the ranch at night weapon is a Colt H-Bar with ANPVS-4 sight attached, it is kept out of safe at night. I OWN the night to 300yds which is almost to my gate. I also have an M-14 I keep with an ANPVS-2 on , just for old Vietnam nostalgia or wild pigs and big stuff that might need killin at night. I have a Russian SIBIR YUKON with a weaver mount that I can put on various things but my Rem. 1100 12ga 3 gun match shotgun usually wears it; a real good night optic for (comparitively) low $. Ya gotta have the edge at night ,ask our boys in Iraq!:p

[wun_8_seven]

kobun, thanks for the links. as for the spike strips ,that might work if all family members who may show up are aware of them. in this situation they had two choices fight or flight not sure i'd want to take away thier ablity to flee when its middle of the night, i'm alone and backup is at least 30 miles away and isaw at least three people. 187

[Kobun]

not sure i'd want to take away thier ablity to flee when its middle of the night
Then get a spike strip with hollow spikes...
Takes some time for the air to go out, and sure makes the Sherrifs role easier, finding a truck with four flat tires. :D

[JohnKSa]

PLEASE folks...

Do NOT rely on bullet drop to keep distant things safe from gunfire.

At the distances we are talking about here, even a ricochet could easily be lethal.

If safe and workable field of fire can't be found then a shotgun is the only solution.

[BevrFevr]

How about natural barracades ie curves in the driveway with steep ditches on either side. I know that is easier said than done in that OK red clay.

Maybe hook up an audible alarm to motion sensors? Will make sure to wake you up and scare the stuff outta stangers. Also it won't hurt to hang up some B27 targets with the hell blasted out of em. Scatter some spent shotgun cases on the drive. Hang bones from rusty things. Just do things to try to give em the idea that one crazy bastard might just be there to plant them on the back 40.

Rural crime is a real problem cuz you are either gone or on your own and there are no witnesses.

Good Luck Hombre!
-bevr

[JohnKSa]

Also it won't hurt to hang up some B27 targets with the hell blasted out of em. Scatter some spent shotgun cases on the drive. Hang bones from rusty things. Just do things to try to give em the idea that one crazy bastard might just be there to plant them on the back 40.
Just make sure you can get it all cleaned up in the amount of time it takes the Sheriff to get out there after you have a shooting.

You wouldn't want him to get the wrong idea... ;)

[280PLUS]

thanks! they show you a lot about elevation and trajectory

i'd like to think i would have waited till they cleared the house behind and then sent a little love their way just on principle.

you know, let them hear that bushy talk a little...

but i wasn't there,so,,,:rolleyes:

you kept a good cool head, that's the most important thing...

if i could keep the same in such a situation i'd be happy with myself

m

[BevrFevr]

In this situation I think the sheriff is the least of his concerns.

A little psychological deterence can go a long way to preventing a bad situation. These basic techiniques have been used for centuries.

In a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation I will always opt for the former. Better to be tried by twelve then carried by six if you know what I mean.

And speaking of deterence I'll also throw my vote in on the 12ga. slugs. I love shooting slugs. I personally have blown a five inch hole in the side of a truck. (gotta hit it at an angle) Everybody that sees the picture of the hole makes a "holly cr*p!" statement.

It makes it easier on the Sheriff in the end. "just find the truck with the giant holes and follow the trail of human hamburger"

-bevr