This is a great forum.


April 6, 2006, 11:51 AM
Truely a great forum, when everyone is talking about guns.
Unfortunately when the subject gets onto other matters the opinions shared are invariably poor to bad.
I refer mainly to the very thinly veiled animosity that pervails here towards the British. That's a shame to hear that people still have the 'Don't tread on me' attitude towards the USAs biggest partner in the struggle against imported terrorism.

I feel I should revert back to being a 'lurker' and continue to use this site as a source of excellent information, leaving the political broadsides to those alpha males amongst us.

Have fun gents.

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April 6, 2006, 11:58 AM
Since they are JUST opinions, it is your opinion that they are bad ones. I would relax a little and not take too much stock in what text on your screen says. Remember, everyone on here is a knowledgable, experienced master in their field of (fill in the blank).:cool: I for one am glad to see that you will be a citizen here soon. Now if you could just rub off a little on our neighbors to the south you'd be doing us all a favor...
BTW, we don't harbor thinly veiled animosity towards Brits, we're just jealous of the accent. For some reason girls here can't get enough of it.

The Drew
April 6, 2006, 12:07 PM
I think most of the animosity towards the british is really aimed at the government. Many of us see things they have done and classify them as tyrranical... The gun bans, the cameras everywhere, are really an afront to freedom and liberty. Those of us who grew up reading 1984 are shocked at what a prophetic vision it was...

April 6, 2006, 12:09 PM
I'm relaxed. And tolerant.
(read my sig).
But, imagine if you were foreign, or another race and the consensus here was that you were 'always wrong and always inferior'.
Nice welcome to the darkside of THR. (?)
I'm a legal immigrant gun owner who's gained citizenship. I should be amongst friends here but instead I'm ridiculed as an idiot for carrying the belief that 'Mid-Brother' can actually improve the quality of life for all.
Yes, that's 'Mid-Brother', as in not Big Brother. It's not necessarily all or nothing.

The Drew
April 6, 2006, 12:15 PM
I'm sorry Real Name, It has nothing to do with your nationality or your race or that you are a resident gunowner... What is being ridiculed is your idea that these measures are good for a society...

I don't know anyone on this board who if they made the same statements that wouldn't be ridiculed.

April 6, 2006, 12:15 PM
Talking about guns, really, means talking about life. It's not about toy railroading, you know. I have never seen this forum as a gathering-place for hobbyists, but then I hang out in Legal & Political 90 per cent of the time.

Maybe we "bash" the Brits because we love them and see in them our philosophical progenitors. It's hard to watch a grand and great nation ebb away into fecklessness, especially when their future can appear like a preview of our own.

April 6, 2006, 12:20 PM
Are you having issues with folks outside of the internet thinking your an idiot? Because if it's just THR folks thinking your an idiot (which I doubt they would ever say it to your face), then I would certainly never give a second thought to that. Understand that what works across the pond won't work here. A majority percentage of folks in the U.S. are rural people. Many people are not used to the socialist policies used to govern large urban centers, they view it as a loss of privacy, and individual rights.

April 6, 2006, 12:26 PM
I also guess I need to just shut up and go polish my guns some more.

But doesn't anyone else have self-conflicting beliefs?
I'm a NPR sponsor, Nashville Ballet sponsor and a vegetarian, who also collects and shoots guns, is strict on immigration control and believes the USA should have an official language.
Am I the only Demopublican here?

April 6, 2006, 12:33 PM
Or maybe you're in the wrong sub-forum?

April 6, 2006, 12:37 PM
Or maybe you're in the wrong sub-forum?

You're right, I tried keeping out of here when all the Illegal Alien threads were prevelant over the past few weeks, it's hard as I'm usually on the edge of arguing with myself on most issues, although on illegals I am absolutely decided.
But I'll stay out. I have no business here.

April 6, 2006, 01:12 PM

You will find that many of the people on this board are libertarian (or at least share those ideals) and the idea that the Government knows whats best and is there to protect you from yourself and others is completely opposite. It is like a socialist walking onto the trade floor of Wall Street and demanding that all the stocks be turned over to the government to be distributed among the people (he would be laughed out of the room).

I read 1984 when I was younger and it scared me. I was scared not because of how horrible that world was but because how easily such a world could be created and maintained. The reason that you were attacked for sugesting that it is ok to give up some liberties in order to be protected a little better is because others on this board understood 1984 and were scared by it as well.

Giving a little more power to the government to fight "the War on Terror" may seem like a good idea to keep us safe if it is only for a little while. However, this war has no clear objective that we can say "there, now it's done." This war can go on forever (just like the war in 1984) and the government can keep comming up with reasons why they need more power as long as there are people who say "well, if it makes us safer it is ok."

Governments rarely give up power willingly, and serfs were plenty safe when their lords felt like protecting them.

(I hope that explains why people on this board took offense at your sugestion. I agree that the way that they voiced their complaints was not very High Road, and for that I appologize.)


April 6, 2006, 01:21 PM
I have no idea what the original intent or content was that spawned this thread

My immediate thought is....these are only opinions. I don't have to agreed with yours, nor do have to agree with mine. I appreciate the opportunity to have a civil debate without degenerating into trite diatribes (ok, usually anyway)

April 6, 2006, 01:25 PM
Very few people really agree with everything one of the parties says or does. We all have different views on different issues, some more important than others. Some people do see their party affiliation as part of their identity. I don't like to think of myself that way even though I end up voting for the same party all the time.

Very few internet comments are meant to be personal. Those that are personal are better ignored anyway. It is difficult to have an honest argument or debate on a public forum without some people taking the argument a little seriously. Appreciate the comments that deserve it, skim over the others.

April 6, 2006, 01:30 PM
r_n -

I've never judged anyone for where he was born, which god he choses (or choses not) to worship, the color of his skin, or whom he likes to sleep with.

But if I disagree with your ideas and opinions - particularly about something as precious to me as freedom and civil liberties, I'll let you know in no uncertain terms, whether we meet on the internet, or in real life.

As has been suggested, reading the Federalist (and Anti-Federalist) Papers would be a good way to learn the foundation upon which many of our philosophies of government are based.

And by all means, keep posting. I may disagree (even vehemently :D ) with what you said on the other thread, but you have every right to say it.

Working Man
April 6, 2006, 01:31 PM
But I'll stay out. I have no business here.

real_name, you are a law abiding citizen or working to be a citizen
they you have every business to be here. If you are a citizen in your own
country, legally traveling, on a visa, or whatever is legal in what ever part
of the world you are in then you (all people) are welcome here.

There is no forum here that you should feel is off limits to you. I doubt
anyone here would close a door in your face or tell you not to post. That
is part of what makes up THR.... none of us have to agree or even like
each other, but we do have to treat each other with respect or go elsewhere.

April 6, 2006, 01:37 PM
I have no idea what the original intent or content was that spawned this thread

Just comments like this;

please tear up the papers and cancel your oath-taking appointment right now

I'm here to contribute, to pay tax, to vote, to serve the country if called for. And I get asked to 'leave now' because my opinions differ.
It's not like I'm a British monarch trying to regain the colonies, why is there so much animosity towards anyone different?
I agree, not very High Road.

I guess people can play out their tough guy personas unchecked here as long as it's towards the British, which can't be construed as racist or xenophobic. Unless you are British.
The internet, a wonderful place but I wouldn't want to live there.

April 6, 2006, 01:54 PM
What? Have you never experienced people like this back in the UK? If you give them an opening into your personal life like telling them your from the UK then they will vendictively try to use it against you to stir an unavoidable emotional response. They're called A$$H*LES

April 6, 2006, 01:54 PM
real name ~

I'm glad you're going to be an American. I hope that when you are sworn in as a citizen, that you leave your former government and its deeply disturbing ideas about violating human rights where both belong -- in England.

In America, we believe that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights ... and that when any government becomes destructive of those rights rather than securing, protecting, and enlarging those rights, such a government needs to be altered or entirely abolished.

You're offended that so many Americans dislike what the British are doing politically. The point here is that the folks on the other side of the pond never have -- never have -- supported the same human rights that we in America think are most important. It's a sad thing, because in a lot of ways England was the birthplace of human rights. Our very founding documents would never have been penned, but by Englishmen. But those documents were penned ... and they repudiated British rule.

What I'm getting at is that there's no point in getting upset that the most freedom-loving Americans don't like the way the British government runs things. If we thought the Brits were on the right track, we'd still be singing "God Save the Queen" rather than "My Country 'Tis of Thee."

Further, take a look at how often Americans on THR make disrespectful comments about our own government. We really do believe, all the way down where it matters, that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of human freedom, it is not only the right but the duty of the people to alter or abolish such an institution.

It's all of a piece.


In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. -- George Orwell

April 6, 2006, 01:57 PM
Also keep in mind that while we live in one of the most gun-accepting countries in the free world, we sometimes feel like an oppresed minority because of people like the Brady Bunch who want do destroy our way of life. This can make us quite sensitve to percived threats and lash out at those who mean well but don't under where we are coming from (this goes both ways). I am not defending the actions of some people in other threads, but trying to mediate and get this back to civil discussion. I don't agree with what you posted before, but I tried to explain why in a civil maner. Now I am trying to explain why some people got defensive and attacked you for your opinions. It wasn't right, but I hope that you can forgive these people and see that no one on THR wants a fellow gun lover to be denied citizenship and sent back to England.

Carl N. Brown
April 6, 2006, 03:02 PM
Don't forget the Republicrats. Lotsa folks here
not fully happy with Democrat or Republican Parties.

April 6, 2006, 08:46 PM
Unfortunately when the subject gets onto other matters the opinions shared are invariably poor to bad.

Certainly negative. If careful not to sound too positive, never saying anything good about government, you'll fit right in.:rolleyes:

I refer mainly to the very thinly veiled animosity that pervails here towards the British. That's a shame to hear that people still have the 'Don't tread on me' attitude towards the USAs biggest partner in the struggle against imported terrorism.

Appreciate that few if any of us would consider living in the UK. We're not into gun bans. That doesn't excuse some knuckle-dragger comments, but it goes against the grain. Not saying you are or aren't, but an Australian or Canadian that was wishy washy on gun control would probably get a similar reception. I can only speak for myself, but I would guess that we are more interested in assimilation than some world culture view.

Lastly, don't wear being British as a badge of honor, and you'll be fine. I'm British too; Welsh, Scot, and Brit actually, a trace of Dutch thrown in; but that traces to 1634. It's not relevant.

Car Knocker
April 6, 2006, 09:04 PM
believes the USA should have an official language.

It's not official yet but in about 25 years..... it will be Spanish. :evil:

April 6, 2006, 09:18 PM

I'm ashamed of the same forum members that you're referring to. The juvenile cretinous name calling and "yellow blogism" that runs rampant with some of them is embarrassing for a forum that has as its mission civil debate. You've got to realize that these same Ugly Americans are in the minority overall. They are haters and their language reflects it. Regardless of the cause you'll find them in every group. Democratic Underground has them and so does THR (matter of fact so does every country).

You've also got to consider that those that disagree with you and keep to the site's mission of civil debate may disagree with you strongly. As long as debate doesn't descend into name calling and personal attacks it's within bounds of spirited debate. Those that can't resist their "bitter" instincts are a problem for all of us.

Look on the bright side! If you find that L&P is where they pack up to spill that hate that just makes it easier to identify the ones to ignore. Granted they spoil the party for the adults, but they're still part of the family (even if they're the window licking side of the family) and every large organization has them.

As to conflicted, you'll find many people here that are gun toten' ballet attending fiscal conservatives that support individual rights that believe government has some good to do. With a position that is so mainstream though you won't see them getting as passionate as those with more extreme views.

At least we don't have football hooligans.;)

And the beer is getting better.

April 6, 2006, 09:27 PM
Well from an alpha female mid=brother is like being a little free or a little pregnant. Sorry I just can not accept your idea of government rule. That is O:K is it not. Some like freedom some just a little freedom. I perfer to live in a society that would let those who want freedom have it and if you want to pay into a government social program to get a hand out back you should be allowed to do so just don't think I will accept you forcing me to do so. True tolerance wouldn't you say.;)

April 6, 2006, 11:52 PM
Lastly, don't wear being British as a badge of honor, and you'll be fine. I'm British too; Welsh, Scot, and Brit actually, a trace of Dutch thrown in; but that traces to 1634. It's not relevant.

That's funny, apart from the fact that Wales and Scotland and England constitute Britain (not Wales, Scotland and Britain), but also for the fact that it is relevant to me and always will be. I was born in the other country and will retain citizenship of the UK after gaining US citizenship.
Yes, that is allowed, just not shouted about. It will only become a problem if the US declares war on the UK and I get two draft letters.
I dread to think where my family came from in the 17th century, but do realise that that isn't relevant.

Anyway, guns...

April 7, 2006, 12:09 AM
real name,

Come visit Kentucky. They think anyone that can speak real English is some kind of celebrity. Of course you won't understand when they talk back to you, but just put on your shooting ear protection and say you are on the way to Knob Creek time to answer.

BTW. My Daughter-in-law lives in Cambridge. We visited last December and made short trip to Edinburgh. Went into a crowded pub and had to rub past a guy in kilts…true story. My wife said this guy had a smile after I passed. I am not sure because I was afraid to look back. Anyway, great trip.

April 7, 2006, 12:14 AM
Whenever people ask me where I'm from (which is every single day) I say Kentucky, it gets a laugh every time.

April 7, 2006, 12:23 AM
Real Name-----I one time went to the discussion boards of the Guardian. The replies there to any US citizen that disagreed with that left wing paper is worse than most of what I see at the DU web site here in the USA. There is no way to have any reasonable discussion with those people. I felt like I was really a dirty,stupid, ignorant subject of England or at least they said I was but in more modern elitist left wing looking down their nose know it all language. Mention firearms and all heck would break loose.

April 7, 2006, 12:25 AM
Yes, I can understand. In England when I was asked I told them I was from South of Whales....way south.

April 7, 2006, 05:22 AM
I felt like I was really a dirty,stupid, ignorant subject of England or at least they said I was but in more modern elitist left wing looking down their nose know it all language.

You did go to the Guardian's forum. That's sort of like putting your head in a beehive. They will also be the minority. In my early days on this forum one person told me that my nationality was a cause of offense to him because he believed that his nationality was a cause of offense to me.

There is a strange relationship between Brits and Americans, if I could characterise it in one piece of writing I wouldn't be posting it here, I'd be writing a book. There seems to be a two way superiority/inferiority complex, not present in all the individual interactions that I've experienced, but often immediately obvious to me when some citizens of either country start to speak more generally.

I guess the thing that bugs me most on THR, and in conversations that I may have here in general terms about the US, is the apparent temporary blindness that sometimes occurs. As soon as [UK] appears in a thread title, or 'Yanks' crops up in conversation, for some suddenly all the ills of the other country are laid bare, and the blinkers also go on.

Many of you are to be commended for your awareness of what is going on in your own country, but some of you criticise the UK for those same things as though they aren't happening in the US. Brits do the same. 'Police State' is an epithet thrown by both sides of the Atlantic at the other. I had to resist mentioning Mr Padilla in the 'detained for his choice of music' thread because it wouldn't have added to the conversation, and because in doing so I'd have opened myself up to what I charge here.

Carl N. Brown
April 7, 2006, 03:21 PM
We are divided by a big pond and a common language, you know.

April 7, 2006, 04:44 PM
I've never felt any animosity from Americans since I moved here - must be due to the OIF t-shirt I earned :D

Don't Tread On Me
April 7, 2006, 05:17 PM
I disagree. The behavior and discussion on this forum, even in off-topic (see non-gun) threads is quite behaved, humane, respectful and not very radical. The worst dissagreements are civil by internet standards.

If you think this forum is bad, then you haven't been around the internet. I can name (but won't due to potential forum wars) a few gun forums that are the gutter.

April 8, 2006, 03:22 AM
My experience of folks who 'name-call' entire nations has been that they simply lack experience of a sufficient number of individuals from the nation in question.

In other words, perhaps they are unable to squint around their blindfold of prejudice.:rolleyes:

"Septic-tank" is rhyming slang for "Yank", you know!:)

Anyway, welcome to what is very likely the most liberty-loving nation remaining.

As to how long it remains so, I wouldn't hazzard a guess...

Certainly, at the very least, slightly longer than Britain. And Australia.:uhoh:

April 8, 2006, 03:24 AM
You do your entire heritage a disservice by believing that your opinions are universally theirs, and a further disservice by the belief that people's opinions of you are equally universal to your culture. A little humility might bring things into a better perspective for you.

April 8, 2006, 11:42 AM
Unfortunately when the subject gets onto other matters the opinions shared are invariably poor to bad.

Consider the following please:

Matthew 7:3-5

3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Otherguy Overby
April 8, 2006, 12:47 PM
Put off by comments on THR, are ye?

Tried usenet?

I know it's but a shadow of it's former self, but for a while it was a glorious flamefest. Geeky didn't take any prisoners.... :D

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