keltec .380:do you think there will enough to go around?


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megatronrules
April 20, 2003, 11:48 PM
I was just wondering about this guys do you think keltec will supply enough to meet the demand? I've heard that when the p32 came out it took 6 months to get one and it coasts double the suggested retail price is this true? Anyone experiance this when trying to get thair p32's back when they first came out? Anyways I hope I'll be able to get one of the new keltec .380's in a couple months cause i've been saving my money for one for a while now.

If anyone here has info on this please let me know. thank you

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Bergeron
April 21, 2003, 12:02 AM
I think that this pistol will be THE carry pistol to get, but, having said that, I think that I will wait until about this time next year before trying to aquire one. If folks want to pay more money to be the first on their block with one, more power to em, but I would rather wait. Besides, if there are any problems, a year should be suffcient time to work them out.

Stevie-Ray
April 21, 2003, 01:16 AM
Yeah, what he said.:cool:

arinvolvo
April 21, 2003, 01:24 AM
I concur...Let them cool off...let Keltec work the bugs out of them, and then pick one up.

denfoote
April 21, 2003, 01:58 AM
Having bought one of the first Taurus PT-145's that came out (You remember what happened to them!!), I'm tired of being a "beta tester" for the gun companies!! I would wait!!! ;)

Rover
April 21, 2003, 02:21 AM
I agree with all the above.

Regards

firestar
April 21, 2003, 02:27 AM
You don't need to wait for Kel-Tec to iron out the problems, they will fix anything that goes wrong for free, for life. What you have to wait for is the price to come down to at least retail before you buy. I know about three people that will be buying one once they are selling at normal price and one of them is me. What are we going to do with all our P-32?

TarpleyG
April 21, 2003, 09:17 AM
Well, I am planning on picking up a couple of P-32s after the 3ATs get shipped because I figure the prices will drop a lot. I'll get a 3AT sometime after I read some reports on them to make sure everything is okay.

GT

Bowlcut
April 21, 2003, 10:50 AM
im goign to give them a few months but hope they come out soon and work out well. I want to get one for dad for his pocket pistol. He already has a Bursa .380 so would be nice for him to not have to worry about ammo for 2 guns. Going to get him a .32 at first then trade him the .380 model when it becomes avaible. Keep the .32 for myself :)

Landric
April 21, 2003, 12:36 PM
Well,

Given Kel-Tec's past track record of putting firearms on the market before they actually function properly, I'd say that one would be wise to wait a while before buying a P3AT.

I owned two Kel-Tec pistols, a P40 and a P32. Neither of them functioned as a handgun designed for self defense should (that is, they were not reliable). The P40 went back to the factory three times (at great expense to me) and they still could not make it work. It was as if they didn't even read the letters I included about the problems it was having. I was far from the only person having problems with the P40. In fact, one will note that the P40 is no longer manufactured. The "smile" problem was a serious problem that should have been corrected before the gun was ever put out on the market. It wasn't.

The P32 was not reliable (feeding, extraction, ejection) and its trigger system malfunctioned on a pretty regular basis. Again, I sent it back to Kel-Tec and they failed to correct the problem. I Still got to spend $25 or so to send it to them though.

I know that the Kel-Tec faithful do not want to hear this, but there is a reason that so many people know how great Kel-Tec customer service is supposed to be. That is because so many people have problems with their pistols and have to send them back for service.

Personally I'd rather pay $100 more for a Kel-Tec and get one that works. If Kel-Tec cannot manufacture their handguns with accecptable levels of reliability out of the box at the current price, then they need to increase the quality of their manufacture and if that requires a price increase, so be it.

I expect that the P-3AT will be a big headache for new owners for at least a year. Of course the Kel-Tec faithful will defend these unreliable pistols to the end. I hope I am wrong, but past experience suggests that I will not be...

JohnBT
April 21, 2003, 05:41 PM
I'm #1 on the list for one at the gun shop and can afford to test it this time around.

The P-32 was so scarce around here that I drove more than 100 miles to buy one in the 12xxx range and the only reason it was available was because the front sight was cut off-center and nobody wanted it for $275. Of course, I knew about the chromed slide exchange and they didn't.

John

alamo
April 21, 2003, 05:47 PM
I'm going to get 2 of them once they are available. I wouldn't count on them being widely available for a good while if the sell as fast as the P-32.

Blackhawk
April 21, 2003, 05:58 PM
Welcome to THR, Landric! :DOf course the Kel-Tec faithful will defend these unreliable pistols to the end. You've had 2 KTs and got two that weren't unreliable. I've got two KTs and both have been totally reliable and eminently satisfactory to the point that I'd have to be unreasonable to come up with any complaint other than both guns needed cleaning right out of the box.

But when you say "these unreliable pistols" referring to P3ATs that haven't even be released yet, aren't you projecting your biases onto them? :D

I'm willing to let them earn their own reputation, and because of my high opinion of KTs and KT based on my personal experience with them, I'm eager to get one!

Landric
April 21, 2003, 09:41 PM
Howdy,

Yes, I am projecting my bias on the P-3AT. My experience and that of a lot of other people on the net has taught me that KT does not have a good track record with new designs.

I don't doubt that the current P32 and P11 pistols work, at least in the vast majority of examples. In fact, I am considering buying another P32 since they have been around for a while now.

However, there are A LOT of people who have posted about problems with their KT pistols. I have never seen so many posts about problems with defensive handgun from other manufactures. The fact that so many people have had great experiences with KT customer service suggests a problem. Its great that they fix problems quickly. Its too bad that they have so many problems to fix.

I have Beretta, HK, S&W, Kahr, Glock, and several other brands of handguns. I have no idea what their repair service is like because I have never needed it. Its pretty sad that I bought two KT pistols and neither of them worked. Its even worse that KT could not correct the problems with either of them.

I owned three SIG-Sauer pistols over the years, a P220, a P225, and a P230. All three of them broke their trigger return springs prior to 1000 rounds. In my opinion there is some design flaw there. The only other gun I have had a trigger return spring problem with has been a KT. Go figure. I won't buy another SIG. They got three chances. They fixed the problem each time, but I just didn't trust the springs to hold up after that. I know others who have had the same problem.

So yes, I am projecting my bias on the P-3AT, but if I turn out to be right, just remember that I told you so. I really hope I am wrong, because I figure I can give KT one more chance to get it right.

alamo
April 21, 2003, 10:51 PM
I think you have seen more postings about problems with some KT pistols for several reasons:

1) The P-32 for example - this has been one of the best selling pistolsl over its life than about any other - 106,000+ made in just 4 years. The more pistols, the more that will have some problems, not necessarily a higher percentage than others. I'm sure Glock has made more over a 4 year period but that includes an awful lot of law enforcement contract sales.

2) KT pistols push the design limit for size & weight due to their intended purpose. A larger, heavier pistol is more forgiving when it comes to certain things that can cause a failure. There isn't as much margin for error with such lightweight pistols. If Glock made a 6.6 ounce pistol that sold for $500 like their others, I'm sure it would be more reliable out of the box than most P-32s but I have no doubt it would have a higher return rate than other Glocks and certainly Kahr has had their fair share of problems with their polymer pistols.

3) Operator error - The low price of KT pistols (low to mid $200s in most places) tends to attract more novice buyers who are unfamiliar with how to properly maintain and use a lightweight pistol. They must be held firmly to prevent limpwristing, this is a cause of some failures with KTs that are often blamed on the pistol when they are in fact the fault of the user.

4) Lack of proper lubrication - proper lubrication is essential for reliable function of these pistols. Again, with the small size and very lightweight of their designs, it doesn't take much friction, particularly with a new pistol that hasn't been broken in, to cause a malfunction. A larger, heavier pistol would be more forgiving in this regard.

I've seen plenty of posting on the KT forum from novice buyers who take their KT right of the box, no cleaning or lubrication, using the cheapest ammo they can find and then blame the pistol when they had a couple of failures in the first 50 or 100 rounds. A good number of these pistols would be perfectly reliable after a break-in period of 100-200 rounds with proper lubrication and held firmly as the should be. By proper lubrication, I mean a light coat of grease on the slide rails and hammer/slide interface and oil on the other spots.

To be sure, some do need a trip to the factory for repairs, but $25 or so to ship it back is not a high price to pay for such unique pistols that only cost in the low $200s.

I've got 3 Kel-Tecs, put me down for 2 more - P-3ATs.

Stevie-Ray
April 21, 2003, 11:29 PM
While I can't really be considered one of the KT "faithful" I can see where Landric is coming from. I happen to be one of the lucky ones that hasn't had a single problem with my P-32, albeit after only 75 rounds. However I think that's quite good for any new gun. I did have the problems he's talking about with an AMT Govt. model, and it so soured me against AMT, I don't even discuss the brand with all the guys that say they never had an ounce of trouble with them. Unfair? Probably, but that's just how it is. Some of us simply draw the lemons. I've been lucky with just about everything after the AMT, though. Hopefully that one was my only Edsel.

WonderNine
April 21, 2003, 11:29 PM
I checked out a P32 at the gunshop awhile back. It really felt kinda rinkydink. When I pulled the trigger I was worried it was going to break. And I've heard stories about Kel-Tecs breaking in peoples pockets. This is not a gun I would want to carry. I'll take my Cop over two Kel-Tecs. The P-11 however is kind of a neat pistol, I may want to get one of these someday.

But, I'm really interested in either the MK9 or the upcoming Rohrbaugh. Now THAT's a pocket pistol! :cool:

Blackhawk
April 21, 2003, 11:38 PM
alamo nailed it very well.

WonderNine
April 22, 2003, 02:55 AM
alamo nailed it very well.

I agree, especially with 1,2 and 3. But having seen and handled one, I'd still be awfully leary about using one as my only CCW. It just wouldn't feel "right". I don't know how to explain it. I guess it's like when you go somewhere unarmed, but instead of that feeling you get sort of a "dorky" feeling :uhoh:

In other words, If I was so worried about being made that I could only carry a P32....I'd rather carry a 9mm derringer. More reliable (especially in dirty environments) and smaller yet, with a bigger caliber.

cratz2
April 22, 2003, 07:38 AM
Wow... I'm really suprised to hear all the bad experience and negativity around KelTec. I've had three P32s ranging from SN: 45,xxx ro 75,xxx and I think I've had a combined total of about 4 failures in about 2,000 rounds including FMJ, Silvertips and Gold Dots. The first two were given to family members upon seeing mine. My current one has over 1,200 rounds through it and hasn't had a failure in the last 1,100 of 'em.

I think I'll pass on picking up the new .380 until SN at least 30,000. I know most of the issues of the P32 were worked out sooner than that but with the instant demand that exists for the 380, I'd rather see a higher number. And I'm also not going to be paying $350 for one. I paid $240 for my two hard chromed P32s and I would like to pay no more than about $280 for the 380. I think I'd like to get one by November if at all possible.

http://photos.imageevent.com/cratz2/guns//DCP_0936.jpg

Akurat
April 22, 2003, 09:26 AM
Like others have said, I'll let everyone else be the guinea pigs and wait for the reviews to pile up before getting one. :cool:

foghornl
April 22, 2003, 11:15 AM
From A to Z or (C to W....Computers to Weapons), I never buy Version 1.0.0.0 of anything. It takes a revision or 2 to get all the 'bugs' out. Being a beta tester can be a real bummer.

mini14jac
April 22, 2003, 12:04 PM
I was on a waiting list at least 6 months to get my first P32.
(I waited over a year to get a Guardian.)

Our two P32s needed work.
My brother's P32 needed work.
Some was done at home, (with free parts from KT), but my P32 has been back to the factory.
All of these guns are now (after several hundred rounds) reliable carry weapons.

Of two P11s owned, one had to go back.

All of that said, yes, I would like to get a P3AT.
And no, I won't be buying one for at least a year.
I will let some of you other guys do "T&E" on these guns.
I've done my time as a test bed. :p

Blackhawk
April 22, 2003, 03:12 PM
I don't mind testing new guns. In fact, I like to.

I'm not going to carry ANY gun I haven't thoroughly tested anyway, no matter who the manufacturer is.

JohnBT
April 22, 2003, 03:30 PM
Let's see if I get the logic...

Kel-Tec should charge $100 more for each gun and make them more reliable. Therefore, everybody would pay an extra $100 rather than only some people paying - the small percentage who have problems.

Okay, what about the people who get a problem gun - like me. I still believe that I bought what is basically a $400 gun for $275 and then had to pay a little bit more in shipping to get it fixed. (If'n it said Glock, Sig or HK, and maybe Kimber, on the side it would be a $400 gun.)

I had the trigger axis on my P-32 break and paid to ship it back. All in all it was a whole lot cheaper than paying an extra C note up front to get a more reliable gun as some have suggested. And my gun has been fine ever since. Even counting the chromed slide upgrade I'm over $50 ahead.

I think Kel-Tec knows what their doing.

As far as taking a chance on blowing $305 or $310 on a P-3AT, it's only money. My last three rifle scopes averaged around $400 with one of them running over $500. Nice medium-priced stuff.

John

Landric
April 22, 2003, 04:39 PM
Ok,

So you are saying that its OK to manufacture a gun intended for self-defense that doesn't work because its cheap?

You cannot deny that KT pistols, on average, have a lot more problems than those from Glock, Beretta, HK, etc. I bought two Kel-Tecs, neither of them worked. Between my wife and I we have 5 HK pistols. All of them work, and worked right out of the box.

There are many many posts on various web sites regarding problems with KT pistols. I wouldn't want to guess what the exact numbers are, but it seems like about half of the posts about KT pistols report some kind of problems.

Even if KT's actual problem rate is 10%, that is still awful quality control.

I spent so much money on my P40 trying to get it to work, I could have bought a Glock 27 and come out ahead. That is unacceptable. Sure, it was a fairly inexpensive gun to buy (about $250), but it was supposed to be a self-defense weapon. It couldn't sucessfully fire a magazine.

KT has some great designs. Its too bad that their quality control is so poor that its a pretty fair bet that an owner will have problems. So yes, I would be willing to pay $100 more for a P32 that had a better chance of working right out of the box and holding up longer.

JohnBT
April 22, 2003, 05:02 PM
In 25 words or less, I'm saying there are many happy K-T owners who are glad they didn't pay $100 more.

In 25 words or more, the P-40 isn't the P-32, obviously. I am willing to bet (by buying a P-3AT) that the P-3AT will benefit significantly from what K-T has learned from building over 100k of the P-32s.

When is Glock, HK or SIG going to build a true pocket pistol?

John

Blackhawk
April 22, 2003, 05:27 PM
So yes, I would be willing to pay $100 more for a P32 that had a better chance of working right out of the box and holding up longer.Sounds like the basis for a business plan there. Costs an FFL holder about $6 to send a pistol back to KT for repair and refurbishing, so all an FFL would have to do is raise the price by $100 and give you an additional "Gauranteed That It Works" piece of paper. He could send it back 18 times before he starts losing money.

He could also clean and lube the pistols before delivery (which buyers should be doing before shooting anyway) to eliminate almost all of the KT teething problems.

He could even fire $11 worth of ammo through each one to break it in, but that's what owners hould be doing anyway.

However, I believe that the people willing to pay a $100 premium for a gun that's been broken in for them are few and far between, and that, in a nutshell, is KT's business plan.... :D

alamo
April 22, 2003, 05:45 PM
John BT wrote:

When is Glock, HK or SIG going to build a true pocket pistol?


We both know the answer to that one! Never!

:)

TreeSquid
April 22, 2003, 10:04 PM
I'll be more than happy to be the first one on my block with the P3AT, I've been lusting after one of those things for months. I do a lot of walking at night, and would love to have a pistol so tiny, light and thin as the p32, as I mosey around the city, but I just don't trust the .32ACP as a defense round. I'm apprehensive enough about .380, as I don't REALLY want to go lower than 9mm, but I won't be able to afford/justify a Rohrbaugh in the forseeable future, and no existing 9mm Luger or 9mm makarov comes even close in size and weight to a P3AT. If it doesn't work right, well, crap, I'll grumble a bit and carry my P-01 for a while until KT makes my gun perfect. I know a couple of people with p32s, and they have had zero problems with them. No way will I pay over $300 for a P3AT, though, not even with the chromed slide. I hope to pay maybe $265 or so for the gun, then buy the little accessories for another $30 or so. I hope I'm not being unrealistic here.:confused:

Landric
April 23, 2003, 01:18 AM
"In 25 words or less, I'm saying there are many happy K-T owners who are glad they didn't pay
$100 more.

There are also plenty, myself included, who would gladly have paid more for a gun that worked without going back to the factory two or three times.

"In 25 words or more, the P-40 isn't the P-32, obviously. I am willing to bet (by buying a P-3AT)
that the P-3AT will benefit significantly from what K-T has learned from building over 100k of
the P-32s."

I wish you luck. One would have thought that Kel-Tec would have benefitted from several years of building the P-11 prior to the P40. Obviously that was not the case. I was far from the only person who had major problems with the P40. You will note it is no longer on the market. I hope I am wrong, but I see the P-3AT as being another P40, a gun of practically the same size and weight trying to shoot a caliber with more recoil and bullet weight. Hopefully the first examples will be perfect right out of the box, but given my past experience with KT, I'm not holding my breath.

"When is Glock, HK or SIG going to build a true pocket pistol?"

Well, even if Glock or HK did, they couldn't import it to the US. SIG does build some guns in the US, maybe someday they will, but pocket guns are not SIG's "thing".

I am not a KT hater, as I stated before, I am willing to give the P32 another chance now that it has been around for a while. However, if it doesn't work right out of the box without going back to the factory, I am done with KT forever. Three guns from one manufacturer that are total POS is my limit.

mini14jac
April 23, 2003, 07:51 AM
I've stated this many times before....
It's a proven fact in any kind of industry, that a good Quality Control problem would save KelTec money, not the other way around.

Less end-of-line rejects, less time and parts spent on returns, etc.
(Not the mention the good publicity from people saying that the guns are great out of the box.)
KelTec could make the guns right the first time, without the cost going up.

Maybe they are.
Newer owners report far less problems than 2-3 years ago.

Landric,
You can't really use the P40 as an example.
That was a bad design for most people.
Probably very few people still own and shoot that gun.
Nothing wrong with the gun, if you had a grip like a gorilla!
The caliber was too big for the small frame.
(When Kahr wanted to make a "mini 9" they found that the best solution was to pay Seecamp for the recoil technology. If KelTec had gone that route, the P40 may have worked.)

KelTec got that one into the pipeline without enough beta testing.
However, they did it in response to consumer requests.
How many firearms manufacturers respond like that?

With the P3AT, KelTec is again responding to user requests.
And, I wouldn't be surprised to see a single stack 9mm in the near future. Because loyal customers have asked for them.

I've stated that I wouldn't buy a P3AT in the first year, but if one showed up at my dealer, and I happened to have a birthday coming up........:rolleyes: :D

Landric
April 23, 2003, 01:06 PM
"Landric,
You can't really use the P40 as an example.
That was a bad design for most people.
Probably very few people still own and shoot that gun.
Nothing wrong with the gun, if you had a grip like a gorilla!
The caliber was too big for the small frame.
(When Kahr wanted to make a "mini 9" they found that the best solution was to pay Seecamp for the recoil technology. If KelTec had gone that route, the P40 may have worked.)"

Actually, there was a lot wrong with the gun. My problems had nothing to do with limp wristing or other shooter error. Neither did most of the problems others I talked to had. The primary problem is that the gun did major damage to the ammunition as it tried to feed from the magazine into the chamber. This deformed the bullet and often forced it back into the case. Since the .40 is operating on the edge of safety anyway, this can be a major problem. Regardless of whether the P40 was a good design for most people it would still be on the market if it was not a flawed design. People would still buy it, regardless of how hard it was to control because its a very small, light .40S&W. The gun was put onto the market without nearly enough T&E. Kel-Tec should have discovered this problem, and corrected it, before they ever sold their first gun. They didn't.

"KelTec got that one into the pipeline without enough beta testing.
However, they did it in response to consumer requests.
How many firearms manufacturers respond like that?"

Respond like what? Put guns out on the market without nearly enough testing putting their customers in danger? Or putting out what their customers ask for? The latter is great, but it does not excuse the former.

"With the P3AT, KelTec is again responding to user requests.
And, I wouldn't be surprised to see a single stack 9mm in the near future. Because loyal customers have asked for them."

Great, but given their past failures to do proper testing prior to release what makes us think they have done prior testing this time. I'd be glad to test a P-3AT for them free of charge, but there is no way I'm going to pay to do it.

I hope they work, but I'm going to give the P-3AT at least a year before I even consider buying one.

JohnBT
April 23, 2003, 03:12 PM
I think the problem here is that I don't care all that much about manufacturer averages or who gives you the best chance of getting a good gun. I pick a gun to meet my needs and just want it to work and if it doesn't I'll deal with it. No, I'm not including Lorcins and Jennings and all those. They aren't guns to my way of thinking - nothing made from pot metal is.

Did I ever tell you the story about the new Python my father ordered? ("Yes John, you did.") The barrel was screwed in wrong and the front sight was crooked. Back it went.

John

SkunkApe
April 23, 2003, 07:53 PM
I'm with Landric on this one. I've got a P32. Its a joyous event when it feeds a whole magazine without malfunctioning. Not only that, I shot it outside last summer when the temperature was in the 90's, and I think the trigger melted! I could pull the darn thing all the way back but it wouldn't fire. The only reason I keep it is that it cuts down on my trips to the casino. Anytime I feel like gambling, I just carry the P32.


P.S. I, for one, do NOT "limp wrist".

JohnBT
April 23, 2003, 10:25 PM
If the trigger is pulled completely to the rear and the gun won't fire it is a failed trigger axis. Mine was beginning to do that 2 or so years ago so I sent it back. It's been 100% ever since.

From what you seem to be saying your gun does fire sometimes, so I guess it isn't the trigger axis. Why don't you get the derned thing fixed? I know, I know, you just like to have something to complain about. I'm like that too, I just don't like it to be my guns or my cars.

I even have a 10-round mag that runs 100%.

John

Landric
April 24, 2003, 12:11 AM
Well,

I guess he could get the thing "fixed", but sending it back to KT is not a sure way to do that. They never fixed my P40 and I sent it back to them three times.

I accept that any manufacturer can make a lemon now and then. However, KT has enough lemons floating around out there that its not a fluke, it's a quality control problem.

John, you yourself just pointed out that your P32 had a problem also and had to go back to the factory. Is that OK with you? What if the next time it has a problem and has to go back to the factory is the time that you are trying to shoot it in self-defense?

JohnBT
April 24, 2003, 09:02 AM
Any gun can fail or jam. I had a Ruger autoloader years ago that did it regularly - until they fixed it. I have a Kimber that had one problem early on, but it did not require a return and since then I've fired 10k rounds.

I've carried my P-32 nearly everyday since I had it fixed and that's been around 2 years ago. I've had no other trouble with it.

In addition, the the trigger axis failure on mine was a very gradual thing. It happened so slowly over the course of 3 or 4 range trips that I almost missed it. Only at the very end, sitting on the sofa fooling with it and saying "Hey, this trigger is going waaaaay back.", did it fail to go click on a snapcap.

And another thing, I'd bet that my P-32 was dry fired a zillion times before my dad spotted it and I bought it a couple of weeks later. It sat in a little shop in a one-stoplight town for who knows how long because the front sight was cut way off to one side. So I'd bet the endless dry firing had something to do with ruining the trigger.

I've certainly gotten my money's worth out of the gun and am eagerly awaiting a P-3AT. If it works, fine, and if it takes work I'll whine about it like everybody else. Meanwhile, I have the P-32 and a S&W 442 loaded with 158-grain +P LSWHP.

Let's say I've used the P-32 a minimum of 600 days. That number divided into say $300(including the return and chrome upgrade) equals 50 cents a day.

If I carried it an average of 16 hours a day for those 600 days, that's 9600 hours divided into $300 for a per hour cost of $0.03125. Three and one-eighths cents per hour. (Yes, I'm aware I could have divided 50 cents by 16 hours to get the same number.)

I've ignored the cost of leather and mags, but also the residual value of the gun and the leather and mags and such.

John

22luvr
April 24, 2003, 11:46 AM
I've owned both the P11 and the P32 and they were like comparing apples and oranges. The P11 was a lemon and the P32 was a creampuff.

I have said in the past that I would like to see Kel-Tec make minor upgrades in their workmanship and materials. I'd like to see them strengthen certain components here and there, even if it adds a couple more ounces to a ridiculously lightweight gun.

However, I'm a fan of and admire Kel-Tec because they're out there on the leading edge in mass-producing small, lightweight, affordable handguns. I still think the P32 is a design of pure genius. Could it be made even better? Yes, of course.......for a price.

Notice the aftermarket items that have sprung up just for the P32. No one on earth makes a niche gun like Kel-Tec that is light, concealable, offers superior capacity for size, and is, for the most part, reliable. To their credit, they do offer a lifetime warranty which I have taken advantage of in the past.

Would I like a P-3AT? Oh yeh! Am I going to wait? Weellllll, I'm going to try and wait the obligatory year from initial shipping for the bugs to work out, but I don't trust my own patience! Time will tell.

I may be mistaken but I think I've read somewhere that Kel-Tec is now the world's fourth-largest firearm manufacturer, in terms of units produced. Statistics, probabilities, and the sheer numbers of Kel-Tec products out there would give the impression that there are a larger number of faulty products produced than is actually the case. Can someone please verify that?

Finally, not to name names but I find it irritating that some throw personal assumptions out here without any basis in fact. Before we make blanket statements about the ratio of units produced against defective units, at least make a weak attempt to verify your source for such statements! Do any of us have any idea which firearm manufacturers have the statistical edge on producing reliable firearms? Well, post us a trustworthy link! :fire:

Your comments are always welcome.......

alamo
April 24, 2003, 12:39 PM
22luvr,

KT says on their website the following:

"Specializing in handguns for concealed carry by law enforcement personnel or licensed citizens we are now in the top ten of handgun makers in the US. Lacking accurate statistics, we believe this can be extended to top ten in the World."

I wouldn't be surprised if they were in the top 10 in the world but as they say, that is hard to verify and would probably vary by year. If an overseas manufacturer got a big contract for military/police pistols, they would certainly move up in the rankings for the term of the contract. As far as just the civilian market, I'm sure KT is near the top.

mini14jac
April 25, 2003, 08:55 AM
The gun was put onto the market without nearly enough T&E. Kel-Tec should have discovered this problem, and corrected it, before they ever sold their first gun. They didn't.

Landric,
I've frequented the KelTec forum, and used to get the daily email list, and the problem that you describe does not appear to be a common problem.
The gun could not be made to function for the average user, (in a cost effecient manner for KT), and that is why it was discontinued.
Too much recoil in a too-small frame.
For the average user, the gun could never be made to function, so it was junk.
(KelTec was getting a lot of P40s back for repair that had no problems. If it wasn't broke, they couldn't fix it.)

You are doing a lot of griping about a $250 gun, so I hope you have never bought a Kimber, or Para, Springfield, etc.
Pop over to www.1911forum.com and check out some of those complaints.
I don't like paying $250 for a gun that has to go back to the factory, but I would be really unhappy with a $1000 gun that needed work.
Any manufacturer that makes hundreds of thousands of machines is going to have some lemons get out. Chainsaws, cars, blenders, guns.....
It's a fact.
The only way to keep a happy customer base, is to have excellent customer service. KT has that in spades.

Respond like what? Put guns out on the market without nearly enough testing putting their customers in danger? Or putting out what their customers ask for? The latter is great, but it does not excuse the former.

If the customer base asks repeatedly for a product, KelTec tries to please the customer.
KelTeck has put a huge number of guns into the pipeline, and all 3 models have had their share of teething problems.

I think you are the first person ever to accuse them of making an unsafe product.

Of the 4 KT guns we have owned, 3 needed service.
(None of these problems created a safety issue.)
I wish that number could be smaller, but then I've had to have work done on the following new guns also:
Ruger, Taurus, and Mossberg.
There may be others, but those come to mind right now.
I would still buy from those manufacturers, because they make excellent firearms.

Bottom line, if you are soured on KelTec guns, you have the right to not ever buy another one.
There are many, many users that think they still make guns that are an excellent value.
I hope I get to buy some more!

alamo
April 25, 2003, 09:35 AM
Interesting info. on the new P-3AT posted by a fella on the KTOG Bulletin Board:


"...something I neglected to share about my pilgrimage to the Mecca in Cocoa was that Val mentioned that a week before I got there, GK [George Kelgren] had come to her, handed her a stock P-3AT, and said "break it."

She said she had fired it...limp wristed, upside down, jerking the trigger...you name it...for almost 2 straight days before her trigger finger wore out and she had to give it to someone else to take over. She had someone loading mags for her, and she estimated personally putting somewhere in the neighborhood of 1000 rounds of mixed ammo--FMJ, JHP, even .380+P, with nary a hitch.

Last she'd heard (when I was there), the little Mighty Mouse hadn't been broken, hadn't been cleaned except to run a patch through the barrel, and was still going strong."

Landric
April 26, 2003, 12:12 AM
"Landric,
I've frequented the KelTec forum, and used to get the daily email list, and the problem that you describe does not appear to be a common problem."

Then maybe you remember the "smile" problem that almost everyone on the e-mail list had with ther P40s. Basically, this problem resulted from the nose of the bullet slamming into the base of the feed ramp during feeding. It would cause a u-shaped cut in the bullet that looked like a smile, hence the name for it. The damage to the bullet was often severe, and the impact could, and often did, force the bullet back into the case. The .40S&W operates at pretty high pressues anyway, and a bullet forced back into the case can result in serious overpressue, ruptured cases, or damage to the gun and/or shooter. That is a serious safety issue, which is why I made that statement. The "fix" for this problem was to send the pistol back to KT so they could remove excess metal from the base of the feed ramp. The problem was that they did that twice to my P40 and didn't correct the problem. I still had the "smile" and the feed problems that went along with it.

"The gun could not be made to function for the average user, (in a cost effecient manner for KT), and that is why it was discontinued.
Too much recoil in a too-small frame.
For the average user, the gun could never be made to function, so it was junk.
(KelTec was getting a lot of P40s back for repair that had no problems. If it wasn't broke, they couldn't fix it.)"

There is no excuse for not finding the "smile" problem in testing. I was far from the only person to have it, there was a lot of discussion on the e-mail list about it. One would also think that they would have found out that the P40 didn't work for the average person during testing, if that is actually the case rather than the reason it left the market is that it was a flawed design.

"You are doing a lot of griping about a $250 gun, so I hope you have never bought a Kimber, or Para, Springfield, etc.
Pop over to www.1911forum.com and check out some of those complaints.
I don't like paying $250 for a gun that has to go back to the factory, but I would be really unhappy with a $1000 gun that needed work."

Actually, I don't think it should matter what a KT costs. They bill it as a self-defense weapon, and the one thing a self-defense weapon has to be is reliable. If they can't make it reliable and sell it for $250, then they should either stop making it (as they did for the P40), or charge more and make it better quality. I bought both a Springfield 1911 and a Para 1911. Both of those were also lemons. I have not bought another since, mostly because I paid so much for such junk. The reason that I gave KT two chances and am planning on giving them another sometime soon, as I plan to give the P32 another shot, is that if it does turn out to be junk, it least it wasn't $700 junk.

"Any manufacturer that makes hundreds of thousands of machines is going to have some lemons get out. Chainsaws, cars, blenders, guns.....
It's a fact.
The only way to keep a happy customer base, is to have excellent customer service. KT has that in spades."

Yes, but KT seems to put out more lemons than most. Its a good thing they have good customer service, its too bad so many people have first hand experience with it.

"If the customer base asks repeatedly for a product, KelTec tries to please the customer.
KelTeck has put a huge number of guns into the pipeline, and all 3 models have had their share of teething problems."

My point exactly.

"I think you are the first person ever to accuse them of making an unsafe product."

See above comments on the "smile". If that is not unsafe, I don't know what is.

"Of the 4 KT guns we have owned, 3 needed service.
(None of these problems created a safety issue.)
I wish that number could be smaller, but then I've had to have work done on the following new guns also:
Ruger, Taurus, and Mossberg.
There may be others, but those come to mind right now.
I would still buy from those manufacturers, because they make excellent firearms."

So your own KTs had a 75% failure rate. Does that not suggest a quality control problem, or do you just consider yourself unlucky?

"Bottom line, if you are soured on KelTec guns, you have the right to not ever buy another one."

Yes, but that is not what I want. I think KT has some great designs. What I want is a KT that works so I can depend on it. I don't think that is too much to ask.

"There are many, many users that think they still make guns that are an excellent value.
I hope I get to buy some more!"

I guess that depends on what you consider an excellent value. A gun that costs less but it out of your hands for weeks at a time due to failure is not a better value than a gun that costs more but is always there for you. I hope that any KTs you buy in the future have a better record than 25%.

Jedi_7.62
April 26, 2003, 02:33 AM
I've been waiting for someting like this for a while small light .380

However, I've learned over the years several valuable lessons, one of which is never buy the first round of anything. NOTHING comes out perfect the first time. It's against the laws of nature.

Let the eager fight over the beta runs, Maybe they won't have trouble but they are more likely to than one made in another year.

Until then I'll keep toting my little steel Makarov. To date it's the smallest thing I trust. But I look forward to shedding the weight difference.

Then again what's capacity on these 7???

JohnBT
April 26, 2003, 08:43 AM
My father taught me not to buy the first round of anything, too. He also said don't buy the cheapest or the most expensive in a product line either.

Recently though, he started buying first year cars. Now he's waiting on another one to be released in a couple of months and I expect he'll get one.

He says he's 81, won't gamble on living until the 2nd or 3rd model year, and can afford to make the mistakes now he couldn't afford years ago.

Live and learn.

John

mini14jac
April 28, 2003, 10:43 AM
So your own KTs had a 75% failure rate. Does that not suggest a quality control problem, or do you just consider yourself unlucky?

Oh, if you do a search on TFL, you'll see that I have always suggested that KT needs better quality control.
As I stated above, it would cause the cost to KelTec go down, as final product quality went up.

You and I are probably on the same page.
The only difference is, all of my KelTecs are working now.
If you had talked to me when my first on went back to the shop, I would have been less mellow.
And now, I've learned to work on the guns.
The last couple of issues that came up with my KelTecs, I just called and they sent me free parts.

But, because of the issues we have discussed here, (at length), I won't be ordering one of the first P3ATs.

To answer the question that started this thread:
Not initially, but after a few months. :p

Tim Burke
April 28, 2003, 07:40 PM
I'll wait until the guy that buys the first one shoots it, and then decides he doesn't care for the gun in a 380. Still, it'll probably be more fun to shoot than the Seecamp 380.

Ala Dan
April 28, 2003, 07:52 PM
Greeting's All-

Megatronrules- you are certainly welcome to mine!:uhoh:

As I prefer the .45 ACP, for serious social encounter's.


Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

surfinUSA
April 28, 2003, 08:27 PM
If you'll buy it, they will build it.

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