Returned from Border watch with Minutemen...


April 6, 2006, 06:10 PM
I've returned from the Minuteman patrol of the border.

Looking at that terrain really bothered me. There are discarded water bottles, makeshift tents from garbage bags, and discarded clothing all over the place. It looks like a troupe of absent-minded 3rd graders have been dropping garbage and walking in circles there for about 100 years.

Only, it's not 3rd graders. It's illegal aliens from Mexico and elsewhere.

If any of you have read Stephen King's The Dark Tower, this was Thunderclap. It truly was. Our base camp was an abandoned ranch-hand bunk house that had basic electricity reactivated. We ran our comm systems and computers from here (computers for on-site background checks of new recruits as well as activity logging).

One fellow named Chris told me during the night watch how illegals have once even kidnapped one rancher's daughter to coerce him into aiding them with food and transportation. These people live in a war zone.

The first watch I was on took place at night. I must have heard a hundred illegals in the desert around me, but they were obscured by the scattered mesquite trees, cholla and prickly pear cactus that provided cover for them. Visibility at night was perhaps 50 feet with the naked eye, and 100-200 yards with night optical systems, depending on quality. I had a Gen-I night vision monocular at my disposal which allowed me to spot my first two illegals at about 75 yards distant from me at about 8:00pm.

They were clothed "normally", wearing t-shirts, long sleeved shirts and pants with tennis shoes. No uber-tactical gear, in fact no gear at all. We let them go by...the reason for this was that they were obviously scouts for a larger group we could hear behind them. Border patrol will only respond for hard counts, not sounds, and we needed a hard count of a large group in order to motivate them to come quickly. My impression is that BP responds with less enthusiasm if there are less than 5 in any group, or if no drugs are present.

Throughout the night, the larger group moved up and down the minuteman line, about 300 yards south of us the entire time. It was probably 3 separate groups. Two were plain old illegals, about 40-50 in number each. The other one was a drug train. Unknown how many, but I hear they move in groups of 10-20 from the more senior guys on the line.

About 10:30 or so, the drug train probed our lines right next to me. They sent one guy with something on his feet...carpet probably. His footsteps were very quiet, not like the regular illegals. He emerged from the bushes about 150 yards up the road from me, and about 150 yards from the next post. Almost exactly in the middle.

I had been using passive night vision with no infrared lamp for assistance. This guy was barely in range of my night equipment, so I hit him with my IR beam to help see him. He had night vision too, and saw my IR beam immediately. He froze for about 5 seconds. I got a good look at him via night vision. He had a quality backpack, with a large bail of something up high towards his shoulders. Very squared and boxy. He was bent over slightly to balance the weight.

When he saw my beam wasn't just scanning, but locked in on him, he bolted back southeast for cover. We followed him with a spotlight, the IR beam and night vision. He was lit up really good until he dived into some cover behind a bunch of cactus. We lost sight of him, but reported him to Border Patrol. He was sitting there behind cover only 100 yards away or so.

The shift ended at midnight, and BP didn't arrive to collect my mule until we brought in our line. I was really frustrated by this, but later found out that they had mounted a large operation 5 miles south of us and didn't have a lot of manpower to respond to our calls.

I don't know how many of the 50 or so spotted illegals along our entire line (visually spotted, not heard) were apprehended by BP when they came up to us at about 11:45. We closed down and went back to camp to sleep.

I dragged my tired keister out of bed at 6:45am for a 7am briefing, prior to the 8am operation.

The day shift bothered me. I ended up spotting 5 illegals crossing the highway about a mile from me. I watched them through binoculars as they crossed from west to east of highway 286. A few minutes later, a white vehicle came from the north, pulled a u-turn where they were, disappear behind some bushes for about a minute and then head off back north.

I had heat glare and mirage from the concrete and it was hard to tell if the vehicle was a honda civic hatchback or some sort of minivan. To fit 5 illegals and a driver, it was probably a minivan. I reported this to our comm center, but due to the distance and uncertainty of vehicle type, they declined to report the sighting to BP.

Another post spotted several illegals and reported to BP at about 11am. BP responded with helicopters and eventually ground units. One agent came with a dog and pursued on foot. Two hours go by. Then three. Finally 4 hours go by and we get a request for assistance on our radio frequency from someone claiming to be a Border Patrol agent. We attempted to verify this request but could not raise the original caller again and BP headquarters could not confirm an unaccounted-for agent.

We went up-trail where the one agent with the dog took off and found him about 2 miles in. He had injured his knees and was the source of our mystery communication. His radios were dying and couldn't reach the BP radio relay, but could reach our signal amplifier. He requested that we bring his truck to him. The ACLU had followed us out and were filming us, and due to their tendency to warp video footage we did not help this officer in any way (which really bothers me). The only assistance we provided was to make sure he made it back to his truck on his own...that no illegals attacked him in his injured state. We even called BP headquarters to report an injured officer, and they didn't respond with any ground units or anything. I don't see how they can retain officers with this type of support. I heard their attrition rate is around 1000 officers a year, and their academy can only train about that many. Even with increased funding for more agents, they can't meet staffing goals because they have no mandate to truly get the job done. I could never work for that kind of agency.

Shift ended at 4pm. I saw 5 illegals, and the entire line had seen about 30. That's pretty average, since they learn quickly exactly where we are (cough cough...ACLU...cough cough) and respond by using night as cover.

I headed back to camp, had a bite to eat with a couple of folks, and said good-bye. Three hours later, I was back in Phoenix with a better understanding of the border problem and how vast the problem truly is. When you see that 50 mile wide valley (knowing it's just one small part of a 2000 mile border) and realize that you only helped to monitor 1 mile of it and had contact with at least 100 illegals in 16 hours, it makes you wonder how many come through the entire border in a single day... 20,000? 50,000? I don't know, and neither does anyone I asked.

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April 6, 2006, 06:17 PM
That's absolutely so disheartening it's not even funny. That you can put in numerous requests for service, and no one comes to help you. And on some level, it really bothers me that no one was willing to help the BP agent.


April 6, 2006, 06:23 PM
That's an interesting post. I did live out West (Texas/California) and wish I still did so I could be on the line.

When the BP reponds do they seem to appreciate the help?

April 6, 2006, 06:36 PM
What is the general BP opinion of the Minutemen, I know the the media says, but what do the guys on the ground say?

April 6, 2006, 06:42 PM
What is the general BP opinion of the Minutemen, I know the the media says, but what do the guys on the ground say?
It varies, agent by agent, as you might expect. I'd say they appreciate the publicity and, therefore, focus that the project brings on the problem. Since the beginning of the Minutemen Project, illegal immigration has been a hot topic. Maybe, someday, that will translate into more agents and equipment to get a better handle on the problem.

April 6, 2006, 06:58 PM
Destructo is pretty much right-on.

Most appreciate the help. We try not to distract them for a straggler here or there, but for larger groups and only for actionable calls.

I'm still irked by overly passive response for the BP agent, though.:mad:

April 6, 2006, 07:00 PM
Thanks for the report - interesting and disheartening reading...

April 6, 2006, 07:06 PM
I have to wonder, how does anyone get a good nights even remotly close to the border.

April 6, 2006, 07:29 PM
Wow that is just a mess..But thank you for your service
to try and help defend our borders.

April 6, 2006, 07:34 PM
Thanks Az wow that is really something.

April 6, 2006, 07:39 PM
That is sad you couldn't help the BP agent, but that was (unfortunately) the right decision to make. You have to be super-strict with the rules or you will get accused of all kinds of things.

Interesting about the one guy who was using NV.

It also sounds like there is lots of procedure, logging, and need to get approval to do anything. Those are all good things.

Standing Wolf
April 6, 2006, 08:25 PM
Well, yeah, but Congress just said it's okay now. Things are going to be all right any day now.

April 6, 2006, 09:17 PM
I am surprised some good ol' boys haven't just staked out ambush sites and let bullets fly. Would cut down on traffic.

Not advocating it, just observing.

1911 guy
April 7, 2006, 08:29 AM
First, thank you for doing this. I live in Ohio, but the problem reaches here, too. not only the national implications, but two coyotes arrested in Painesville, near lake Erie. I'm vacationing in AZ next wekk and may try to hook up with the Minute Men for a night or two to try to do my part.
As stated earlier, very interesting about the illegal with NVG. Not your typical border crosser there, I don't think. Obviously working for someone who wants their "product" to make it safely.
Also feel the same as you do about not assisting the BP agent. My gut would tell me to help a man down, but the ACLU is making life difficult on everyone by bad publicity and crooked lawyers.

Two hypothetical observations. First, I am surprised that someone hasn't seen fit to put a dent in the population out there in the middle of nowhere, as per Spartacus' observation. Secondly, the same individuals may decide to take care of the ACLU problem and blame it on the illegals. Two birds with one stone, problem solved and public opinion swayed against the illegals. As Spartacus said, I'm for sure not advocating killing anyone (yet) but thinking dirty leads one down these trains of thought.

April 7, 2006, 09:12 AM
I'm for sure not advocating killing anyone (yet) but thinking dirty leads one down these trains of thought.

Oh, but your not advocating "(yet)", so it's cool... :rolleyes:

1911 guy
April 7, 2006, 09:25 AM
So you've forseen all possible outcomes of this situation and absolutely none of them have even a remote possibility of getting ugly?

We all go through life hoping to mind our own business and be left alone, but sometimes things don't work out that way. A whole lot of folks on this board carry a handgun on a regular basis. Not looking for opportunities to use it, rather the opposite. But you gotta play the hand you're dealt. Same with the border situation. Hope it finds a diplomatic/political resolution. We don't know how the rest of the cards will fall on this (yet).

April 7, 2006, 09:28 AM
Nah, it's gonna get ugly. Personally, if I lived in AZ for example, I'd be sorely tempted to start shooting people who tore down my fences, killed my stock and stole my property.
Sorely tempted...

April 7, 2006, 09:35 AM
I would love to take a trip down there and help out a few days. Are any Minutemen armed?

I feel utterly hopeless about this situation. I tried to voice my concerns about this locally, by trying to start a rally. But all I got was ridicule, and they could only focus on the humanitarian aspect of this, not the economic.

I feel :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

But even more so like this :(

April 7, 2006, 09:35 AM
Shooting someone for destruction of property, or that is attempting to harm you in some way is one thing.

Setting up on a hill top randomly selecting people to pick off with your .308 is another entirely.

Make sure you articulate exactly what you mean so when people read this they don't get the wrong idea. Not too much to ask.

April 7, 2006, 09:37 AM
I thought that I was clear.


April 7, 2006, 09:44 AM
Poor America, so far from God and too close to Mexico

April 7, 2006, 09:51 AM
I thought that I was clear.
You were. Partially why I used your destruction of property as an example.

I felt others were not.

April 7, 2006, 10:00 AM
Gotcha, Trip.:)

April 7, 2006, 10:06 AM
Maybe I am way off base here and don't have the right perspective... but Why is it that we can not just shoot these Foreign Invaders on sight?

I have no patience for this kind of blatent disregard of our Laws and our Sovereign soil.

April 7, 2006, 10:11 AM

See what I mean?

April 7, 2006, 10:13 AM
What do you mean?

April 7, 2006, 10:26 AM
Your post insinuates -- more so specifically states -- you would be in jail for murdering people coming across the border, if you in fact lived in a border state.

Please tell me there's no need to explain further.

I understand being angered by illegal immigration. I'm as angered as any one of you.

But I don't understand talking <foolishly> especially when collectively we share the same voice in the eyes of some.

What does your post say about you? What does your post say about us as 2A supporters and gun owners?

1911 guy
April 7, 2006, 10:30 AM
I gotta side with Trip 20 on this one. While he and I might not agree about the eventual outcome of the situation, we're not to the skull poppin' stage yet. Hopefully, somebody somewhere with some legislative authority will come through and we won't get there at all.

April 7, 2006, 10:37 AM
As I said... this is a Foreign Invasion and as such does not fall under the guise of local law. Invasion is an act of War and should be treated as such.

April 7, 2006, 10:40 AM
For one thing, advocating those actions on THR will result in Art dropping this thread quicker'n a handfull of warm baby poop.
For another, it's just plain ol' bad PR.

1911 guy
April 7, 2006, 10:45 AM
Violence is justified if:

1) My government tells me to (I'm former military, so this one doesn't apply to me anymore).

2) I or someone else is threatened with bodily harm through no fault of their own (if you put yourself in a pickle on purpose, take your lumps).

3) Our society demands it to preserve itself. While there is a strong felling that something needs to be done, society at large is not willing to condone violence yet. I fear that day is coming, hope it does not.

April 7, 2006, 10:51 AM
Oh, I figure it's coming. There will likely be a civil conflict, some say there already is one that isn't being reported. The amnesty currently being pushed through the Senate may well be the spark that lights the fuse for one or both sides.
If the pols won't listen to American citizens and sell us out to a foreign country, there will be fighting in the streets. You folks in the border states are going to bear the brunt of it, but it's spreading across the country.

April 7, 2006, 10:54 AM
[Rant on]

they have no mandate to truly get the job done.

This is a crucial fact that I think many citizens have failed to get a grip on, although I think more and more are catching on. The Border Patrol is not supposed to stop the flood of illegals. They are just window dressing to make gullible voters think that something is actually being done. (Not the policy of the agents -- this is way above their pay grade.)

Our 'government', BOTH PARTIES, has no desire to change the status quo, they like it just the way it is.

Because of self interest on both sides of the political spectrum, and large amounts of money, neither the Republicans nor the Democrats want the flow of illegals to stop.

Left to themselves, they would not even be talking about this. However, because something like 80% of the population is alarmed at the illegal immigration problem, they are making noises in Washington like they care.

However, the bills with any chance at all to get passed would change nothing, keeping the border open for continued illegal immigration.

The key here is 'illegal' immigration. By promoting illegal immigration, business can hire good workers without having to deal with minimum wage laws, health insurance, SS, FICA, etc. etc. etc. Business makes big bucks this way, and by "solving' the illegal immigration problem politicians would kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

Watch -- if any "Reform" bill comes out of congress, it will be structured in such a way as to make sure that the flood of illegal labor continues, not matter what it may do for 'amnesty' or other issues. After all, if you bring in the illegals and make them legal, they no longer are availble for illegal exploitation, right? So you must then bring in more people who will take their place in the illegal labor pool.

I see no way for this to be stopped -- too much money and power at stake. Our politicians will absolutely NOT pay any attention to the voters on this one, except to con us.

[Rant off]

BTW -- I don't blame the Latin/Mexican illegals for any of this. If I was stuck in poverty in those countries, I would also make my way to the U.S. as fast as I could.

Dave Markowitz
April 7, 2006, 10:56 AM
azredhawk44, thank you for your service.

I weep for the future of my country, and fear for my childrens' tomorrows.

April 7, 2006, 11:07 AM
I don't get it. What the hell does the ACLU have to do with not helping an injured man in the desert regardless of whether or not he is a border patrol agent?

What logical reason could there be for not helping the agent into his truck. What logical reason could there be for not touching him at all?

I suppose if he was laying there with a broken leg and a complex fracture bleeding to death you'd just have brought his truck and left him to his own devices to get in and drive to the hospital.

Why the STUPID rule?

April 7, 2006, 11:13 AM
Sanjuro +1

I remember President Jimmy Carter saying that Mexico was so far from God and too close to the United States. Even though he was smiling and presumably joking, and I considered Carter a fellow Christian, I didn't quite like that anti-American tone.

Since then, my opinion of Carter's treasonous actions and words on many occasions has become much worse. But he's just one of the many in our suicidal elite who have given us such things as open borders, the loss in Vietnam, political 'correctness', all kinds of aid and comfort to our enemies, the encouragement of perversity, the mollycoddling of criminals, the wasting of taxpayer dollars, and generally anything to try to destroy America.

Sorry about the rant. Brave Minutemen out there helping to defend our borders is cause for optimism.

Art Eatman
April 7, 2006, 11:45 AM
coat4gun, whether you know it or not, you're twisting the meaning of "foreign invasion". From the standpoint of an armed response by any citizen or official group, you're using the phrase as though these border-jumpers were armed and coming with hostile intent toward the U.S. as a nation.

The real-world aspect from the standpoint of punishment for what border-jumpers are doing is akin to "trespass". Trespass does not carry a death penalty, at least not this side of the old USSR.

Only after (or within the appearance of "imminent") physical action of a criminal nature is directed against person or property can any response be made beyond informing the authorities.

I suggest that learning this difference will keep you from looking foolish. It will certainly keep you out of trouble.


April 7, 2006, 11:47 AM
Some of the border crossers ARE ARMED!


Art Eatman
April 7, 2006, 12:05 PM
LAR-15, so am I. Until I actually threaten somebody...

Until that armed border-jumper manifests himself as a threat, the laws as written speak to such things as "Illegal possession", etc. No death penalty for that.

Nowhere is it written that a prson should not be cautious and prepared to deal with violence. But, that's a self-defense issue. What we're drifting into, here, is how one deals with somebody who's trespassing, and whose most usual criminal act after the trespass is littering.

Frankly, my problem with these threads is the shortage of thinking and the surplus of emoting.

So I'll drift and spout for a moment:

The US has an aging population and a shortage of younger people in a growing job market. We create about 2.5 million or so new jobs per year; sometimes more. We have some one million legal immigrants per year coming in. There is thus a demand for labor beyond what we can legally process. (Sure, we have native-born. We also have retirees, remember?)

Mexico has the opposite problem. Due to their Socialism and chauvinistic socio-economic system, they are not creating jobs as fast as they are creating people.

Our legal structure and budgets cannot deal with the resulting problem. The only solution is to get action from Congress. Due to the politics of all this mess, nothing meaningful has been done over the last thirty years of development of today's problems. It is quite probable that--again, due to politics--little worthwhile legislation will be done.

For anything meaningful to occur, pressure must be kept upon the Congress and the Administration. The Minutement help by the publicity they create. Others must do the usual phoning and writing to all the political types whose addresses and phone numbers they can find.

But advocating that folks sit out in the boonies and go to shooting is somewhere down towards total stoopid.


April 7, 2006, 12:14 PM
Heck I remember the old signs all over fences of my hunting spots (neighboring lands) of TRESSPASSSERS WILL BE SHOT. What's wrong with that now???

April 7, 2006, 12:18 PM
That is really scary!! I can only imagine the huge amount of drugs that are coming via the border. I am sure only 2-3% of the border crossers are drug runners, but it sounds like they have plenty of room to sneak in. This is so frustrating!!

April 7, 2006, 12:36 PM
So someone crossing into the US with a visible gun is not an armed invader?

Art Eatman
April 7, 2006, 12:47 PM
No, LAR. "Illegally-armed trespasser", from a legal standpoint--and we're stuck with the laws as written, like them or not.

Now, with Arizona being an open-carry state, I'm not even sure if that trespasser is "illegally armed". That would depend on US and Arizona laws about non-citizens and firearms. If he can get a Green Card before he gets caught, he's golden.

Wacky world, ain't it?

:), Art

Daniel T
April 7, 2006, 12:50 PM
Heck I remember the old signs all over fences of my hunting spots (neighboring lands) of TRESSPASSSERS WILL BE SHOT. What's wrong with that now???

Scary sign and all, but it wasn't legal then, and it isn't legal now. Not in Texas anyhow.

April 7, 2006, 12:50 PM
I don't get it. What the hell does the ACLU have to do with not helping an injured man in the desert regardless of whether or not he is a border patrol agent?

What logical reason could there be for not helping the agent into his truck. What logical reason could there be for not touching him at all?

I suppose if he was laying there with a broken leg and a complex fracture bleeding to death you'd just have brought his truck and left him to his own devices to get in and drive to the hospital.

Why the STUPID rule?


We had a pretty thorough discussion about this as it was happening. If he were more injured than he was (it was a sprain or torn ligament... he was still walking, just in pain), we would have gladly intervened and either carried him, loaded him in one of our trucks, or whatever was necessary to save him. He was in pain, but still wanted to bring in his illegal catch. In order to help him in this situation, we would be on film, driving a BP vehicle marked with government plates, to a BP agent in the field who is detaining an illegal. We would have gotten out of the truck, handed the keys to the agent, and he would have put his dog in the truck and the illegal in the cage in the back.

We would have been on film with the ACLU, assisting in a means we weren't authorized to do. That would open up the Minutemen to civil lawsuits or even prosecution by our wonderful presidente, Jorge Bush. I don't believe that agent really can authorize us to assist in an arrest. He does not have deputization powers.

Were he to have broken bones, or bullet wounds, or oozing blood somehow, or unconscious, there would have been no hesitation and he would have been in a hospital as fast as my truck or any other minuteman's truck can manage 100mph on those roads. But he was rational and still empowered to do his job, just with discomfort and pain.

Just realize how litigious the ACLU is, and how they are drooling for any opportunity to hurt the minutemen.

Hope that helps explain the situation.

April 7, 2006, 12:52 PM
Thank you azredhawk44 for participating.
I will be there this weekend.
MCDC is the best thing going so far.

April 7, 2006, 12:58 PM
Here's a tricky one for you, unlikely? maybe but so was 9/11, you're doing your one or two nights of Minuteman duty when you hear voices speaking but not spanish, sounds a lot like a middle eastern dialect just like those folks we see on tv everyday for the past few years. You spot 'em with the night scope and they don't quite look like the other border crossers you have seen. Your call to BP goes unanswered because they are conducting a big operation 50 miles south. You light them up with a spotlight and they start running, their hands appear empty however yours is holding your scoped rifle...

April 7, 2006, 12:59 PM
It is true that several illegals only want jobs,. (and free health care, and benifits and free education for their kids, and a car, etc)

I personally don't fault them for that, but I have a few problems with the method. 1. Several are criminals Ie. drug mules runners etc. 2. If they come into the states to live and work etc. They need to integrate (learn the language learn the rules etc.) Just take a look at France to see what happens when you let massive amounts of people come in without integrating for the sake of "Diversity". :scrutiny:
3. (this is the big one) The U.S. does not need to be the bleed off valve for Mexicos failed government. The longer we allow them into the States, the longer Fox and friends get away with being a bunch fo Corrupt S****bags. Mexico needs to boil over.. The more time we spend absorbing Mexico's problems the worse off we'll be when it's all over.

4. While I don't condone shooting aliens, I wouldn't loose too much sleep if some of the larger Armed groups (drug runners etc.) ended up as buzzard meat. There is a big difference between shooting unarmed people and defending the border from armed insurgents and criminals, despite what the ACLU might tell you.

April 7, 2006, 01:34 PM
I am surprised some good ol' boys haven't just staked out ambush sites and let bullets fly. Would cut down on traffic.

Not advocating it, just observing.

Already being done....

...unfortunately, all the bullets seem to be traveling from south to NORTH... :cuss:

But advocating that folks sit out in the boonies and go to shooting is somewhere down towards total stoopid.

...and just when IS it OK to shoot, then? :scrutiny:

April 7, 2006, 02:34 PM
Heck I remember the old signs all over fences of my hunting spots (neighboring lands) of TRESSPASSSERS WILL BE SHOT. What's wrong with that now???

Scary sign and all, but it wasn't legal then, and it isn't legal now. Not in Texas anyhow.

Very true, but it also kept me from jumping that fence too!!!!!

April 7, 2006, 03:51 PM
We went into Mexico back in the 1840's if I recall correctly. And again later towards the 1900's- Black Jack Pershing chased Pancho Villa into Mexico after he had raided several US towns along the frontier. Course- there was no stinkin' ACLU around, either.

Maybe ya'll should try decoys with the ACLU- have a few minitmen geared up, and send them randomly around, giving the ACLU a wild goose chase. Might work once, or twice, and would be hilarious. They can't have endless camera crews and reporters, can they?

April 7, 2006, 04:44 PM
Oh, jeez...

The ACLU "representatives" there drove a blue honda civic hatchback. HEAVILY tinted windows, low-ridden (and driving on AZ ranch roads!!) I could give you the license plate just to be mean about it (It was a Texas plate, BTW), but I won't.

It was a pair of hispanic-looking, 20-ish year old punks with t-shirts that said "observador legal" (legal observer) on them. They had gilligan hats, saggy pants and looked like complete dumb@sses.

Nosey college kids or hispanic activist agitators is all they are. They can't muster any real grown-ups to come down to the border and watch the minutemen, because they know that what we are doing is legal, and they are advocating that people break the law.

April 7, 2006, 04:45 PM
We fought a full-out war with Mexico, ostensibly over a border dispute, from 1846-1848. It ended with Gen. Winfield Scott's troops capturing Mexico City, and Mexico selling us what is now California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, Utah, and parts of Colorado for $18.25 million.

Both sides wanted the war for their own reasons. Mexico had never recognized Texas as an independant nation, and wanted the territory back. The US wanted the southwest, which we had tried to buy previously. Disputes over which river formed the Texas-Mexico border (we said the Rio Grande, they said the Nueces) gave both sides an excuse.

Gen Pershing later led a force into Mexico in 1917 in an attempt to capture Panco Villa, after Villa raided a town in New Mexico and killed a bunch of civilians. The force included the Army combat debuts of motorvehicles, airplanes, and George Patton, but failed in the objective of capturing Villa.

April 7, 2006, 04:55 PM
I have to wonder, how does anyone get a good nights even remotly close to the border.
It's easy to get a good night's sleep when your loads get through. A good number of ranchers on both sides of the border make a lot of money smuggling or just looking the other way.

April 7, 2006, 05:12 PM
I have to disagree that this isn't an invasion. When my child can't go to his/her local PUBLIC school b/c they don't teach in English - AT ALL?! When the will of the group of illegals supersedes that of the American citizens that Congress alleges to represent thereby changing our way of life. Sorry, I see it as an invasion. Slow maybe - like a parasite in the body, but an invasion nonetheless. </non PC hat on> Illegal immigration is like HIV/AIDS. It will continue to contribute to the death of the what was once the American way of life if it is not controlled (preferably stopped but that's not totally possible). </non PC hat off>


April 7, 2006, 08:10 PM
It's not an invasion, it is a reconquest. ;)

Why be so surprised that they've found a loophole in your defenses:
that gray area between whatever justifies military, police or even
individual citizens' armed response?

So yes, Art et al are right: it isn't an invasion as defined by your laws and traditions.
That does not change the fact that a gigantic loophole is being exploited,
apparently to your clear disadvantage, and until you close that loophole, your hands are tied.

April 7, 2006, 08:21 PM
You really want to know the outsome if we let the illegals in I can tell you there are even pictures so you can multiculturalism in all its glory. So you can see what happens to a country when the addiction to cheap foreign labor winds its full course.

If you want to see our future if we continue to play this game that hurts our citizens while helping outside groups that have no interest in assimilation.

Look to France. France who's army and navy helped us get the freedom that every second slips through our fingers like sand.

Look at what has happened and is happening in France and that is what will happen here.

Soon the illegals will become legal and then they will no longer be given jobs. Just like the arabs in France. Then they will riot, next our gutless government will throw them some bone. When this bone puts a hardship to the people. They they will riot.

The future is France.

April 7, 2006, 09:21 PM
I have to wonder, how does anyone get a good nights even remotly close to the border.
Me too since I slept in my Bronco not 3/4 mile from the border while out deer hunting. Needless to say I had a 10MM and an 870 with buckshot sleeping with me.

Good thing my Bronco is white/blue cause at night it looks like white/green like the border patrol dudes. Maybe that's why no on bothered me.;)

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