Senate "unites" to stick it to America on illegal immigration


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bg
April 6, 2006, 07:45 PM
I can't say what I want to about this, as it would be under
even the lowest of low roads, but I will say it just lites
me off. The fix was in from the start..:cuss: >
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060406/ap_on_go_co/immigration_53;_ylt=Ajlv6hATpTxXDS1Ba1eZGshQuk0A;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Putting aside party differences, Senate Republicans and Democrats coalesced Thursday around compromise legislation that holds out the hope of citizenship to an estimated 11 million immigrants living in the United States unlawfully.

SUPPORT HR.4437

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Standing Wolf
April 6, 2006, 08:17 PM
Would someone please remind me how to tell the Republicrats from the Democans? I seem to have forgotten.

Biker
April 6, 2006, 08:23 PM
No problem, Standing Wolf; One begins with an R and the other with a D.:uhoh:
Hope is in the rearview mirror.
Biker

TexasRifleman
April 6, 2006, 08:28 PM
What a crock of big smelly poop.

This part is my favorite....

Illegal immigrants in the United States for less than two years would be required to leave the country and apply for re-entry alongside anyone else seeking to emigrate.



Yeah right. They are ALREADY required to leave the country because it's freaking illegal to be here in the first place!!!!

I notice this legislation didn't have a big budget increase for the Border Patrol to begin tossing people out huh?

I am gonna go a) be sick b) drink heavily (probably not in that order)

CAnnoneer
April 6, 2006, 08:34 PM
It is a social experiment - the senators want to see how much crap they can do before they get booted out of office. Let's see if all the turncoats get reelected in a few years. Frist and the others just marked the death hour of the Republican party.

So much for the "lesser of two evils". Which one was lesser again?

Tancredo for president in 2008.

CAnnoneer
April 6, 2006, 08:34 PM
double click

Lennyjoe
April 6, 2006, 09:04 PM
Heard a snippet of McCain asking who would pick lettuce in Yuma for $50 per hour. Said no American would do it and thats why we need migrant workers.

Hell, for $50 per hour you can count me in. I play golf all day long in 100 degrees and have to pay for it. :what:

Biker
April 6, 2006, 09:25 PM
Hell, for $50 an hour, I'll go under water and pork fish.
Biker

Sindawe
April 6, 2006, 09:33 PM
Hell, for $50 an hour, I'll go under water and pork fish. Biker, you owe me a new monitor as this one is now covered in herbal tea and shrimp curry! :D

Yea, I'll go pick lettuce for $50/hr.

dasmi
April 6, 2006, 09:35 PM
If they pay $50 an hour to pick lettuce in Yuma, I'll pack up my life and move there tomorrow. Seriously.

lamazza
April 6, 2006, 09:36 PM
hell, for $50/hr ill take bikers seconds!
Does McCain say that he's a rebublican with a straight face?

Lone_Gunman
April 6, 2006, 09:54 PM
Does McCain say that he's a rebublican with a straight face?

I suspect most Republicans will end up supporting McCain's proposal.

beerslurpy
April 6, 2006, 11:08 PM
THE BILL IS HR 4437 NOT 4473.

4473 is the ATF yellow form to record a Title 1 transfer.

Stop getting it wrong, you twits. This isnt the first time it has happened.

More relevantly, the bill still has to get through the House, which is much more in tune with the rest of America. The real contest of wills will be in the conference between the houses.

Standing Wolf
April 6, 2006, 11:14 PM
I predict the Republicans will lose big this November—and deservedly so.

3rdpig
April 7, 2006, 01:13 AM
Heard a snippet of McCain asking who would pick lettuce in Yuma for $50 per hour. Said no American would do it and thats why we need migrant workers.


Rino McCain didn't just say Americans wouldn't do it, he also stated that we COULDN'T do it. This guy needs to be taken down a few notches, like from Senator to private citizen. I was going to say something else, but this is The High Road.

longeyes
April 7, 2006, 01:19 AM
Caligula wished that the Senate had but one neck.

Now I know how he felt.

beerslurpy
April 7, 2006, 01:20 AM
The questions we should not be asking are "are they working?" or "are they paying taxes?" These are irrelevant questions for people making 5 dollars an hour.

We should be asking "are they contributing to the country or are they taking away from it?" When you consider that these illegal aliens are illiterate, poor and unskilled, they will represent both a large drain and a small contribution to our society. Thus, the answer is to expel them as quickly as possible.

Regardless of what policy we choose to have, if we wish for any immigration policy to be enforceable, we need more bodies at the border and we need a wall for them to guard. Otherwise this is so much hot air.

longeyes
April 7, 2006, 01:27 AM
Like an abused spouse one day we will wake up and will have had ENOUGH.

I think that day is near.

longeyes
April 7, 2006, 01:28 AM
McCain, like Kerry, specializes in marrying wealthy heiresses. This is where he gets his brilliant sense of economics.

meef
April 7, 2006, 01:36 AM
I predict the Republicans will lose big this November—and deservedly so.I wish like hell they would ALL lose big this November.

:fire:

Kamicosmos
April 7, 2006, 01:42 AM
I don't understand how they can just make up these bills and pass them into law. Something this big that affects the country this way NEEDS to be voted upon by us, the Citizens.

This whole thing has me so worked up I have to mostly ignore it or I get to ranting and raving and getting myself half sick.

It's going to pass, the whole damn Senate just went Mexican-Socialist (Mezi's, I guess?) on us.

I am going to vote against every single republican on every ballot, from local straight on up, on every vote I go to from now on. Maybe I'll just abstain my vote. I've been voting Repub or Libertarian. Libs got nowhere and the Repubs are turning out to be worse than the democrats....

messed up country ...
:fire: :banghead: :mad: :cuss:

Cosmoline
April 7, 2006, 01:43 AM
Yeah right. They are ALREADY required to leave the country because it's freaking illegal to be here in the first place!!!!


Yeah, this one had me laughing and crying at the same time. Just how are they going to enforce any of this if they have zero control over the border as it is? The whole thing is window dressing. The first order of business MUST be to build a wall and mine the damn border. Until the flow is brought under some measure of control, these steps will remain a joke. Actually, the full amnesty is the only real honest approach being proposed. It at least admits that the feds have completely and utterly failed at their most basic responsibility.

Don't Tread On Me
April 7, 2006, 01:43 AM
HAHA!

Not because we are being sent to our doom by these tyrants, but because maybe this, just maybe this will finally put it into people's brain that the people ARE NOT BEING REPRESENTED.

We are all politically homeless. The democrats and republicans are just a 2 party gang on the same side. They disagree on idiotic wedge-issues to create the illusion of conflict, but in reality they both agree on staying in power and controlling ME and YOU all while growing the government. Like some Christians believe in the Holy Trinity, the government is like the Unholy Doublet.

I've argued till I was blue in the face with a number of highly leftwing progressive folks. Despite all of our differences economically, we have more in common when it comes to liberty than we do in comparison with what the government actually does. That's a fact. Left/Right people basically disagree on gun control, but beyond that, they are pretty much in favor of liberty. The government is not in favor of ANY liberty whatsoever. This is proven by history and their track record of excutive orders/policies, legislation, and judicial decisions for many decades. Neither we, nor them are being represented...so this brings us to the question, who are they serving? THEMSELVES. That's who.


So, if you actually believe they will act in your benefit - think again. They don't act in your benefit when it comes to your fundamental God given rights! What makes you think they care about the effects of immigration on you?


Sorry for being a pessimist. I just call it like I see it.

beerslurpy
April 7, 2006, 01:51 AM
We dont have physical control over the border. As long as we dont have control, we cant make any enforceable policy on the border, because any policy can be effortlessly mooted by any illegal alien with working legs. Everything we do is just hot air until we physically control the border. Remember this.

As this debate progresses, I want you to keep in mind that we already enacted a very impressive sounding anti-immigration bill in 86 that wasnt enforceable for this same lack of physical control. It had sanctions against both employers and aliens. And it accomplished absolutely nothing and it was never enforced (3 employers were sanctioned in 20 years). Remember this.

If the bill that comes out of congress doesnt include actual physical measures to control the border (like a wall and more guards) then you know we have been snookered yet again. PLEASE DONT LET THIS HAPPEN. Email and phones people.

Don't Tread On Me
April 7, 2006, 02:01 AM
We dont have physical control over the border. As long as we dont have control, we cant make any enforceable policy on the border, because any policy can be effortlessly mooted by any illegal alien with working legs. Everything we do is just hot air until we physically control the border. Remember this.


That should be:

We dont have physical control over our government. As long as we dont have control, we cant expect them to make any effective policy on the border, because any policy can be effortlessly mooted by any illegal alien with working legs. Everything we do is just hot air until we restore the concept that "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"



The Senate "compromise" aka agreement is on amnesty. That means there is ZERO chance of a wall. Forget it, bye bye. Government does not want what the vast majority of Americans want. Hence in my post before this one, we are not being represented at all. One entire side of a debate is being completely told to go away. Well, maybe some small extremist minority is, and of course the illegals are being represented!


Feels good doesn't it? Especially right before tax time!

AverageJoe47
April 7, 2006, 04:25 AM
Avery time I here about this I just can’t understand what is going on. You guys are absolutely right we need physical border control first, after that is secured and locked down we can then worry about the illegal’s that are already here. It seams so simple to me we just lock down the border and then start deporting.

Cellar Dweller
April 7, 2006, 05:04 AM
This is a slap in the face to prospective immigrants going through the system playing by the rules. Back of the line for you, buddy - we got "7 (10, 12, 20?) million" ahead of you to process first.

Of course, everyone has been here five years, "ummm...under a different name...ummm living with relatives...ummm well, if you GAVE me a license I'd have proof I've been here 5 years but your anti-immigrant and racist policies denied me..." Maybe a couple will volunteer to be in the two-to-five group if promised something worthwhile.

But but but only them commie Libertarians want open borders, not honest hardworking Republican lawmakers! :confused: Oh, certain Republicans want POROUS borders, well, that's completely different... :scrutiny:

The best part of this is gonna be watching the Republican/RINO meltdown: all those new voters pulling (D) instead of (R) when they become citizens, their former base not voting or voting third-party this November, and wondering "where did we go wrong?" :neener:

Brett Bellmore
April 7, 2006, 07:14 AM
As a teenager I picked radishes in the hot sun and the cold rain, for agricultural sub-minimum wage. The Senator is insane if he really believes nobody would take those jobs at that kind of wage. More likely, it's just his way of rationalizing what he knows is bad policy, but bad policy that's demanded by his financial backers.

Don't Tread On Me
April 7, 2006, 07:15 AM
I used to work around illegals. Each and every one of them had some form of legitimate identification and SSI numbers. They find fake ID's that work, and SSN's that work.


This was work being done on a STATE (NY) contract that required certified payroll...:uhoh:


The government is totally pulling one over on the country with that whole paperwork/5 year this that 2 year junk. It's all bull.


That one Senator who said it would be completely a joke, saying it would be "full of corruption" is totally correct. Not because it will be, because it already is. Many will not seek to go through the system because the system already considers them legit. Only the less sophisticated illegals will have to dodge the system. They will just stay here till they are rounded up, which will NEVER happen because of hispanic backlash. So they will be here over 5 years regardless of whatever happens.


Do they really believe an illegal is going to travel from NJ down to a border check point to fill out some forms and go back to NJ? They are insane. Then again, the government convinced this country that Saddam had a part in the 9/11 attacks...so I guess anything goes.

Kodiaz
April 7, 2006, 07:23 AM
This is so frustrating. (Howard Dean roar) aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

LAK
April 7, 2006, 07:34 AM
Putting aside party differences, Senate Republicans and Democrats coalesced Thursday around compromise legislation that holds out the hope of citizenship to an estimated 11 million immigrants living in the United States unlawfully...... ... Which will ensure that millions more continue to stream across, and their cultural weight in numbers will go a long way towards ensuring the least opposition to the new Pan-American State. ;)

---------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

RealGun
April 7, 2006, 07:35 AM
I think the two year rule is controlled by concern for the children who are US citizens. There can't be a more severe solution without addressing the question of citizenship by birth being virtually unconditional.

Lone_Gunman
April 7, 2006, 07:39 AM
The children issue is not a problem.

The children born to illegal immigrants are U.S. Citizens. This is guaranteed by the Constitution. The parents, however, are not.

The parents are then faced with a decision. They can leave the kid in the U.S. to be raised by other people or they can take him back to Mexico. Where and how to raise the kid is up to them, but having a child here should not give the parents the rights to stay. The parents have to decide if the child is better in the US with a broken family, or in Mexico with an intact family.

dpesec
April 7, 2006, 07:41 AM
Standing Wolf,
Yes I tend to agree, but it scares me what the other party will do to us. Remember, both parties want bigger gooberment, it's the nature of the beast.
It's a matter of how long we wish to take to get the the same place.

Thin Black Line
April 7, 2006, 08:44 AM
The best part of this is gonna be watching the Republican/RINO meltdown: all those new voters pulling (D) instead of (R) when they become citizens, their former base not voting or voting third-party this November, and wondering "where did we go wrong?"

Or, a new third party: Atzlan.

Yeah, the Rs and Ds will be standing around scratching themselves saying
"Omigosh! how did THAT happen?!" :eek: "Oh, well. Guess we'll leave
the USA to the unwashed, take our big bucks from selling out the country
and fly off to Europe. Tah-tah!" :p

TexasRifleman
April 7, 2006, 08:46 AM
Guess we'll leave
the USA to the unwashed, take our big bucks from selling out the country
and fly off to Europe.

A week ago I would have called you names for such a "silly" statement.

My retroactive apologies.....

But, since WE can't fly off in our jets, what are we gonna do?
I am usually pretty upbeat and try to keep a positive attitude about politics and policies, hoping to fight another day, but this one is really making me believe that all is lost from this point out.

bg
April 7, 2006, 08:50 AM
THE BILL IS HR 4437 NOT 4473.

4473 is the ATF yellow form to record a Title 1 transfer.

Stop getting it wrong, you twits. This isnt the first time it has happened.

More relevantly, the bill still has to get through the House, which is much more in tune with the rest of America. The real contest of wills will be in the conference between the houses.
Yes you're right and I've fixed it. I don't know why
I get that mixed up. Maybe it's because it sounds
like such and interesting caliber ?? 4473 ? Oh well. ;)

Thin Black Line
April 7, 2006, 09:30 AM
But, since WE can't fly off in our jets, what are we gonna do?

Self-medicate? Pray?

Better yet, how about turning up the heat on the ole Melting Pot by
enforcing current laws against so-called "american" employers (who are
the principal people ILLEGALLY fueling the Illimms in the first place) and
requiring the English language in gov't and business.

Is there a Senator left on the Hill with the cahonas left to do this? Oops....I
think I let some spanish slip....:D

Camp David
April 7, 2006, 09:50 AM
I personally believe the American people are worked up about this illegal alien issue to the point where ANY type of amnesty for illegal immigration will be seen as caving in to it... Bill Frist needs to be very careful what he approves and if he leads the call on ANY type of amnesty Repubicans will lose big time in 2006 and 2008... not that Democrats will win either... just that conservative support does not include any type of amnesty for illegal conduct!

And what about fixing the leak at the border that is hemoraging illegals? What about the fence? Did that issue suddenly disappear? This issue has the potential to fatally affect popular support by conservatives to elected Republican representatives; if they cave in to Dems and reward illegal aliens all hell will break lose...

If the ship is sinking first you patch the hole.... Home Depot/Lowes Hardware stores should start building a fence! Is that too radical for the morons in Washington?

RealGun
April 7, 2006, 10:16 AM
just that conservative support does not include any type of amnesty for illegal conduct!

Speak for yourself. A conservative might want the solution that is least disruptive. One thing I read recently that I found stunning was that most of the "new jobs created", continuously trumpeted, were in construction. In other words, the economy has become very sensitive to cheap labor. Could you at least give me time to close out my investments and prepare for the depression?

I think a physical wall is hardly a panacea, if there is no resolve to kill someone trying to cross it. I would only build a wall and continuously maintain it where there was a need to slow the flow. There are technological ways to be aware of other traffic.

There are not going to be a lot of new border patrol agents in a time when every effort is made to reduce the federal payroll and outsource wherever practical. I look for it to be outsourced to as great an extent as possible...something like security people able to catch and hold, waiting for agents to come and do the official disposition before loading the bus.

A lot of this talk about companies hiring illegals is bunk. A company using day workers or those hired only for the duration of the project would contract with a crew boss or staffing agency, insulating the company from any liability for a worker's immigration status and record keeping. The company just writes a check to the agency or crew boss, then not directly connected to any actual workers. It's legal. Want to nail anyone, talk to the people driving vans around to pick up day laborers, or talk to the crew boss, or audit a staffing agency's records. A great place to start is around DC. They're everywhere.

armoredman
April 7, 2006, 10:17 AM
...Republicans seek legislation to fortify the borders without offending the fast-growing Hispanic voting population...
Wouldn't be if ********** hadn't decided to give drivers licenses to everyone, previous generations of illegals kids are now voting age, and used to free everything, and Mexico sits back and laughs with a cerveza. We surrendered our souther states without a fight to the ACLU.
BTW, ACLU will have a RUDE shock if Aztlan goes through - they will be forced to leave, at gun point. I have read thier junk, and it is even scarier than you can imagine. Insitutionalized racism - no non-Hispanic will be allowed to own land, run for officer, hold a military commission, (just like Mexico today - check it out), and Spanish will be the official language, nothing else.
Oddly enough, they have managed to limit the debate to Hispanics and whites, but the blacks left inside the borders will ALSO BE TURNED OUT...hey, Jesse Jerkson, hear that???

Biker
April 7, 2006, 11:01 AM
Even some of the Dems are getting the message.

www.breitbart.com/news/2006/04/07/D8GR7DS06.html

Biker

longeyes
April 7, 2006, 11:27 AM
This isn't over yet. The People are massively against The Betrayal. Congress risks having their hubris blow up in their faces. No Amendments? Every day we look more like the USSR.

CAnnoneer
April 7, 2006, 11:43 AM
Looks like we can still make a difference. I have been bombarding all my so-called "representatives" (I need a mouthwash, urrgh) with faxes through the NumbersUSA website. It is nice to feel we can still be effective and that Joe Average is finally waking up and starting to retake their country. Like I said previously, the Peers of the Land will push until WE push back. That's how it works. Look at them running for the hills. Let's make "amnesty" a knee-jerk word for any politician who cares to remain in office!


From: Anne Manetas NumbersUSA
Date: FRIDAY 7APR06 10:20 a.m. EDT


SUCCESS: One amnesty down. Stay tuned for what to expect next

HUGE TACTICAL VICTORY: CLOTURE VOTE ON HAGEL-MARTINEZ DEFEATED

The Senate has just voted 38-60 against invoking cloture on the Hagel-Martinez amnesty bill.

No. 1: CONGRATULATIONS! You helped defeat the Hagel-Martinez amnesty for 10 million illegal aliens.

I will send you the vote tally as soon as it is available so that you can call and let your Senators know what you think of their votes.

Also, I will email you again shortly to let you know the result of a procedural vote on the Frist bill that is now occuring, but please take a minute to revel in this tremendous victory.

Twenty-four hours ago it looked as if Sen. Hagel would easily get the 60 votes he needed for a cloture vote, which then would have allowed a final vote requiring only 51 votes. The Hagel-Martinez amnesty looked like a SURE THING

But, as Roy reported to you in the wee hours of the monring, negotiations among the grand amnesty coalition of Frist (R-TN), Kennedy (D-MA), Hagel (R-NE) and Reid (D-NV) fell apart. The main reason for this dramatic breakdown in what appeared to be a solid pro-amnesty alliance, is that Senators are under such seige from their constituents. They know they cannot afford to go on record as supporting a blanket amnesty.

No. 2: Continue to check our VOTE DAY page for the latest developments in the Battle in the Senate.

www.NumbersUSA.com

We will also post the vote tally there so you can see how your Senators voted on the Hagel-Martinez amnesty.

No. 4: Send any faxes still posted on your Action Buffet corkboard.

www.NumbersUSA.com/actionbuffet

THANK YOU You have stuck with us through a tough battle. The war is not over, and we may face another battle later today or tomorrow, but we would not be in this place right now without your help.


-- ANNE

Lone_Gunman
April 7, 2006, 11:49 AM
Looks like the Senate just voted down the "border security" bill that would have given amnesty to illegals and given them citizenship.

This is a very good thing. Looks like the Democrats helped a lot with killing this.

Camp David
April 7, 2006, 11:49 AM
Looks like we can still make a difference. I have been bombarding all my so-called "representatives" (I need a mouthwash, urrgh) with faxes through the NumbersUSA website. It is nice to feel we can still be effective and that Joe Average is finally waking up and starting to retake their country.

Thanks for your efforts Cannoneer! I hate to see illegal aliens rewarded with amnesty when so many legal immigrants get the shaft! Tell the representatives that they need to follow the existing law not create new confusing law....

longeyes
April 7, 2006, 11:52 AM
We haven't yet put the fear of God into 'em, though. They figure they'll just wait us out and pounce again later. Face it, there's a pot of gold waiting for them at the end of this rainbow. The real answer is to throw out ALL incumbents and create the parties we need to revive America. I see no hope with the game being played right now.

Stopping the bills isn't stopping the illegal immigration--so where's the answer to that? I believe we need massive protests and a powerful organizational voice to make D.C. listen to us.

CAnnoneer
April 7, 2006, 11:56 AM
A conservative might want the solution that is least disruptive.

This sounds like the kind of conservatism Neville Chamberlain used to practice. One of the least disruptive things you can do is lie down on the road and be run over. Quiet slaves are least disruptive too; shall we call them conservative too?

IMHO, more likely conservatives are the ones that now rebel against their corrupt leadership and break the phones calling their so-called representatives to apply pressure against the amnesty. It it them that we owe our thanks, because somebody like Feinstein or Boxer are likely a lost cause (not that I don't bombard them anyway).

You want me to show you a conservative? Mine is Winston Churchill. What is yours?

CAnnoneer
April 7, 2006, 12:00 PM
The real answer is to throw out ALL incumbents and create the parties we need to revive America.

Excellent point. Let them think that by stepping away from amnesty they get to keep their seats. Then boot them out when their term expires. Fresh blood and ideas are necessary throughout the ranks. Btw, did you guys know Byrd is going to run for a NINETH TERM?!!! Term limits for the Peers, anyone?

wingman
April 7, 2006, 12:16 PM
Stopping the bills isn't stopping the illegal immigration--so where's the answer to that?

True, In my humble opinion they will simply wait after upcoming elections
and then pass amnesty and hope the public has short term memory which
it does.


Terms limits, yes, including office of president limited to 6 years.

Camp David
April 7, 2006, 12:20 PM
Btw, did you guys know Byrd is going to run for a NINETH TERM?!!!

It's okay... he lost his sanity way back in his third term so no big deal!!! ;)

I have always supported the idea of Congressional terms of office matching the Executive branch; once legislators become entrenched getting them out of office becomes a chore... no reason a senator shouldn't have the same responsibilities to office that a president faces... too much entrenched bureaucracy on Capitol Hill today!

TX35
April 7, 2006, 12:28 PM
So now we get to have a bunch of demonstrations in support of the Illegals... How about a demonstration in support of Americans!!! I'm up for it, we just need someone to get us organized!!

High Planes Drifter
April 7, 2006, 12:34 PM
Anyone have a link to see how each Senator voted on this?

Thanks in advance

Art Eatman
April 7, 2006, 12:34 PM
beerslurpy said, "these illegal aliens are illiterate, poor and unskilled, they will represent both a large drain and a small contribution to our society."

'Scuse me. This same statement could have been made about a large number of job applicants at my wife's little manufacturing operation--and those folks were native-born high school "graduates".

While I don't feel sorry for the senators, I think any sense of frustration on their part is justified. The money and manpower doesn't exist to round up and throw out all the illegals--nor pay for all the court costs mandated by existing law. There is all this public pressure to "Do something!" and at the same time those companies who employ both citizens and illegals have their own voices added to the pressure.

Add up: Umpteen news channels. Internet. Election year. Economics and politics. The sum total of all that means that whatever comes out of Congress is gonna be about as attractive as a four-legged duck.

Art

Dave Markowitz
April 7, 2006, 12:37 PM
...at least for now.

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/us/immigration

PCGS65
April 7, 2006, 12:37 PM
What a bunch of low lifes:cuss: I just can't stop :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf:

Desertdog
April 7, 2006, 12:48 PM
Senate Vote Shelves Immigration Bill
Apr 07 10:42 AM US/Eastern
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/04/07/D8GR7L20E.html

By SUZANNE GAMBOA
Associated Press Writer


WASHINGTON


The Senate sidetracked sweeping immigration legislation Friday, leaving in doubt prospects for passing a bill offering the hope of citizenship to millions of men, women and children living in the United States illegally.

A carefully crafted compromise that supporters had claimed could win an overwhelming majority received only 38 of the 60 votes necessary to protect it from weakening amendments by opponents.



Republicans were united in the 38-60 parliamentary vote but Democrats, who have insisted on no amendments, lost six votes from their members.

Earlier Friday, President Bush prodded lawmakers to keeping trying to reach an agreement, but both sides said the odds were increasing that a breakthrough would not occur until Congress returns from a two-week recess.

"An immigration system that forces people into the shadows of our society, or leaves them prey to criminals is a system that needs to be changed," Bush said at the National Catholic Prayer Breakfast. "I'm confident that we can change our immigration system in ways that secures our border, respects the rule of law, and, as importantly, upholds the decency of our country."

Democrats and Republicans blamed each other for the stalemate.

"It's not gone forward because there's a political advantage for Democrats not to have an immigration bill," said Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter, R-Pa.

He said Democrats perceive a benefit in having only a GOP-written House bill that criminalizes being an illegal immigrant. That bill has prompted massive protests across the country, including a march by 500,000 people in Los Angeles last month.

Democrats blamed Republicans for insisting on amendments that would weaken a compromise that Senate leaders in both parties had celebrated Thursday.

"This opportunity is slipping through our hands like grains of sand," said assistant Senate Democratic leader Dick Durbin of Illinois.

The election-year legislation is designed to enhance border security and regulate the flow of future temporary workers as well as affect the lives of illegal immigrants.

It separates illegal immigrants now in the U.S. into three categories.

Illegal immigrants here more than five years could work for six years and apply for legal permanent residency without having to leave the country. Those here two years to five years would have to go to border entry points sometime in next three years, but could immediately return as temporary workers. Those here less than two years would have to leave and wait in line for visas to return.

The bill also provides a new program for 1.5 million temporary agriculture industry workers over five years. It includes provisions requiring employers to verify they've hired legal workers and calls for a "virtual" fence of surveillance cameras, sensors and other technology to monitor the nearly 2,000-mile U.S.-Mexican border.

Demonstrations in support of the compromise were planned for Monday across the nation, including one in Washington that organizers claimed would draw 100,000 people.

The acrimony in the Senate at Thursday night's end was a sharp contrast to the accolades 14 members of both parties traded just hours earlier when they announced their compromise.

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist called it tragic "that we in all likelihood are not going to be able to address a problem that directly affects the American people."

The House has passed legislation limited to border security, but Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., and other leaders have signaled their willingness in recent days to broaden the bill in compromise talks with the Senate.

But Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., said anything with what he called amnesty would not get agreement from a majority in the House.

The immigration debate has given the American public a glimpse of what may lay ahead in 2008 GOP presidential politics.

Frist, R-Tenn., a potential presidential candidate in 2008, sought to establish more conservative credentials when he initially backed a bill limited to border security. At the same time, he has repeatedly called for a comprehensive bill _ adopting Bush's rhetoric _ and involved himself in the fitful negotiations over the past several days.

seeker_two
April 7, 2006, 12:54 PM
...and, in 2006, the Senate will change hands from a bunch of jackasses to a bunch of donkeys...

...and we won't even know the difference... :banghead:

RealGun
April 7, 2006, 01:01 PM
Looks like we can still make a difference.

I wouldn't be high-fiving it just yet. All they did is shelve it until after spring recess.

The guest worker program in some form is going to pass, and yes, for those here more than two years or what ever number they settle on, that would be a form of "amnesty". It has to pass, because there is no other practical alternative.

The only reason there is GOP resistance is due to a concern for who this wave of people with common sentiments are likely to vote for by the time they reach citizen status. That is the same reason the Democrats are licking their chops. That's the whole reason for the felony thing in the House, because felons are not eligible to vote. An amendment to deny voting privileges, a special form of citizenship, would be perfect in my opinion.

Frohickey
April 7, 2006, 01:11 PM
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00088#position

Here is the cloture vote for the immigration bill. Cloture is the parliamentary procedure by which debate is ended and an immediate vote is taken on the matter under discussion.

In voting 'NAY' on cloture, the Republicans (and 5 Democrats) said that they need to keep debating the bill, and possibly amend it further. Notice how only Democrats voted 'YEA'.

Time to congratulate the 'NAY's and berate the 'YEA's.

SJG26
April 7, 2006, 01:15 PM
Frankly, I'm amazed that major riots have not yet occurred considering the number/location of and "people attending" protests in various urban areas..........how long before one occurs??

Maybe Monday:
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=/Politics/archive/200604/POL20060407a.html
"City and state officials in Phoenix, Ariz., are bracing for what some say will be a "human tsunami" of protesters - perhaps 100,000 - marching Monday through the downtown streets to complain about state and federal immigration reform measures."

Considering the volatility and many Americans "enough is enough" view, it won't take much for an incident to set off a days-long around the nation riot??

Foxtrot427
April 7, 2006, 02:14 PM
Well maybe if the riot is big enough no one will want to come here.

Thin Black Line
April 7, 2006, 02:17 PM
There is all this public pressure to "Do something!" and at the same time those companies who employ both citizens and illegals have their own voices added to the pressure.

And when it comes to the bottom line, it has been ok to break the law,
stick it to their fellow citizens, and make the extra buck. Then the
companies complain that there's no "loyalty" from their employees.
Should they be surprised? They created this situation in the first
place by driving wages downward, then getting so-called less qualified
citizen applicants becomes a self-fulfulling prophesy.

UPDATE: It's been shelved ...at least for now.

Yeah, way too many eyes on the issue right now. Need to distract
the mob with a new spectacle or game in the coliseum....take it up
later under the cover of darkness like their pay raises a few years
back.

...and, in 2006, the Senate will change hands from a bunch of jackasses to a bunch of donkeys...and we won't even know the difference...


I agree with you. While John Q. Citizen is busy clicking away on the remote
to a more interesting channel than C-Span ("Hey the Man Show is on!"),
he will likely not notice the latex glove has moved from the right to left hand
since they're both attached to the same proctologist. :eek:

CAnnoneer
April 7, 2006, 02:21 PM
Anyone have a link to see how each Senator voted on this?

Look around NumbersUSA.com. They always post the votes at least regarding immigration issues. Also, if you become a member (free), you get a billboard customized to your set of politicians by district and state, through which you can send them free faxes on each of the issues. The billboard also shows how they voted on the latest thing and the faxes are customized accordingly. I always add a few sentences to drive the point home.

CAnnoneer
April 7, 2006, 02:29 PM
An amendment to deny voting privileges, a special form of citizenship, would be perfect in my opinion.

In any case, few people realize that granting citizenship to illegals is impossible without complete rape of our current immigration laws. One of the provisions for even remaining in the country, let alone adjusting status to permanent residency, is that you NEVER broke the immigration laws. If you did AT ANY TIME, you are automatically disqualified from pursuing citizenship.

That is one of the reasons why what the Peers of the Land, but especially the first Duchess of California and the Archduke of Chappaquidick, is so egregiously unlawful. She had the gall to show herself on national TV last week and enlightened her unwashed serfs that "illegals are good Americans". I guess breaking the law every second in your life is now part of being a good American?

Cellar Dweller
April 7, 2006, 02:38 PM
The money and manpower doesn't exist to round up and throw out all the illegals--nor pay for all the court costs mandated by existing law.

Well, if they don't exist when there's only "7 million" according to the Senate committee, and they didn't exist when there were only 1 million, where's the money and manpower gonna come from when illegals reach 20 million? At what point do you throw in the towel and stop putting Band-Aids on the problem?

Just think of the "money and manpower" one gets from disbanding Border Patrol and INS that could be used to improve social services and outreach and job-training programs. :evil:

CAnnoneer
April 7, 2006, 02:47 PM
A government that comes out on national TV and says it is physically incapable of enforcing its laws or guarding its borders, becomes a complete and utter joke for everybody in the world. I am sure OBL and the rest of the crappers are overjoyed to hear our so-called leaders are waving the white flag on an issue of national security.

You want solutions? Easy:

1) Put a 100 dollar bounty on the living head of every man, woman, and child, to be collected when the merc delivers them to a border pass. No terminations allowed unless in self-defense. They are shipped across the border. Let's see if they can afford the services of a coyote every month. Mercs would be deputized specifically for immigration services only.

2) Put a $10,000 bounty on the dead head of a confirmed coyote. Those can be monitored and identified by satellite photos and automated spy planes. We have already paid for the toys, why not use them?

20 million illegals equals 2 billion one-time cost. A thousand dead coyotes equals a one-time cost of 10 million dollars. That is nothing next to what we pay directly and indirectly because of the illegals. We burn 2 billion in less than a month in Iraq. To say the gov cannot do it is RIDICULOUS. To say that our Peers of the Land do not want to do it is accurate.

bigj8550
April 7, 2006, 02:58 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12200612/
ONE MORE CHANCE TO DO THE RIGHT THING

Camp David
April 7, 2006, 03:00 PM
With good suggestion by Pax =>


I see several discussions on aspects of the immigration issue but I don't see a prevailing sentiment for action on improving our border barriers. For those interested, I suggest you read Charles Krauthammer's opinion editorial in today's Washington Post entitled: "First a Wall -- Then Amnesty".

While I disagree with his secondary treatise on amnesty, Mr. Krauthammer is right to acknowledge his first point, that a border wall is necessary BEFORE ANY further immigration issue is addressed; a nation needs to stop the bleeding at its borders before operation on its immigration laws is performed!

Congress needs to fix our leaky borders, north and south, before they address the floodwaters within!

RealGun
April 7, 2006, 03:01 PM
...and, in 2006, the Senate will change hands from a bunch of jackasses to a bunch of donkeys...and we won't even know the difference...

No, the GOP has captured the immigration issue and is more consistent with the polls. Nothing will be done until after the next election, and only then will we find that, well, actually, no one has a better idea than some form of amnesty, and it will pass. Gotcha! Listen to John McCain. He knows what must be done on this issue and is not hung up on the cow flop. However, it may be his downfall. I would prefer that they do "the right thing" now, but that's politics.

Manedwolf
April 7, 2006, 03:09 PM
Yes I tend to agree, but it scares me what the other party will do to us. Remember, both parties want bigger gooberment, it's the nature of the beast.

At this point, to me, the choice of the two parties as they now stand is pretty much "Do you want to get shot with a Remington 12-gauge, or a Mossberg 12-gauge? You get your choice!" (Not getting shot isn't a choice.)

I wish third parties were a viable solution at this time.

RealGun
April 7, 2006, 03:09 PM
In any case, few people realize that granting citizenship to illegals is impossible without complete rape of our current immigration laws.

We have had to improvise before. The best example is dealing with the end of slavery.

Phetro
April 7, 2006, 03:23 PM
But but but only them commie Libertarians want open borders, not honest hardworking Republican lawmakers! Oh, certain Republicans want POROUS borders, well, that's completely different...

1. Libertarians do not want open borders--at least not the ones with more than half a brain. I know I don't.
2. Libertarians are farther right than Republicans, believing in maximum liberty and minimum government control. Commies are far left, believing in maximum government power and minimal individual liberty. This distinction is obvious to most, but just in case you missed the memo...

Phetro
April 7, 2006, 03:29 PM
We have had to improvise before. The best example is dealing with the end of slavery.

There is a difference. Ending slavery was something most citizens agreed on (in case you didn't know, the Civil War was fought over states' powers of secession, not slavery, which most people didn't really want anyway), and was generally thought of as a negative thing, even well before its end.

Illegal aliens are wanted out by an overwhelming majority of the country, with no amnesty, no "guest worker" (read: illegal alien) program, and no delays!

The two issues are like night and day.

Biker
April 7, 2006, 03:31 PM
I'm dumbfounded by the Senate proposal. For example, if an illegal has been here for two years or less, he/she has to leave the country. How is time of residence proven? It is generally accepted that over one million illegals a year cross our border. So, the Senate is willing to deport two million illegals *after* the bill passes but not now? If they can't be deported now, how will they magically be deported *after*?
Insanity I tell ya, insanity...
Biker

jdseven1
April 7, 2006, 03:36 PM
I rember awhile back some people did not get confirmed because they had hired illegals to work in their homes. We must fine the people who hire these people. Some people say this cannot be done but if you make the fine high enought to pay the salary of the people doing this job it should not be a problem, plus give a reward for turning in these people.

RealGun
April 7, 2006, 03:37 PM
Illegal aliens are wanted out by an overwhelming majority of the country,

What do they know? They haven't seen the tax bill yet nor the effect on the economy (and them). Time is needed for Congress to educate themselves and the public. If they just listened to GW, they would have it nailed. He has been telling them for 5 years. Nothing else is remotely "compassionate" nor practical. Congress' job is to work out the details, but it WILL happen.

Biker
April 7, 2006, 03:40 PM
RealGun said "What do they know?"

*They* know that They are tired of this invasion and They expect their elected pols to uphold the law and to represent Them.
That is, without a doubt, the most ridiculous question I've heard asked in a long time.
Good God...
Biker

ken grant
April 7, 2006, 03:41 PM
Someone please tell me how an ILLEGAL immigrant can pass a criminal background check.
They are breaking the law by just being here and even more laws if they are using fake I.D.'s

MadMag
April 7, 2006, 03:44 PM
I have learned a lot by reading & participating in the threads about illegal immigration. The bad news is we are in much worse shape than many realize. I thought at first it was really important about the wording of the pending immigration bill, but now I realize that without actually closing the borders it really is just another piece of useless government paper. Illegal crossings will just keep on and probably get worse. The tax welfare load for areas with heavy influx of illegals will just keep getting higher.

Now they have another axe over our heads. Now the latest cry is that there not enough money too round-up millions of illegals and deport them. It is clear to me that no matter what they put in the pending bill the 12 million illegals already here will stay here. Our best hope is that some of that 12 million pay taxes. And that they actually fine companies that violate the law.

NumbersUSA is now one of my main sites. I think we have to get together and take action. This is not like the old days when immigrants came just to make a better life…this has become a movement that is being orchestrated by people that have aims beyond just getting better jobs for immigrants.

When this first started I thought it was over dramatic to say our country is basically under attack, but I think now that is what is happening.

I did not spend my life working hard, paying honest taxes, and serving in the military just to give it all away without a fight.

MadMag
April 7, 2006, 03:46 PM
Someone please tell me how an ILLEGAL immigrant can pass a criminal background check.
They are breaking the law by just being here and even more laws if they are using fake I.D.'s

Good point. I guess the same way they can march with immunity protesting our right to pass laws to deal with illegal aliens.

RealGun
April 7, 2006, 03:52 PM
That is, without a doubt, the most ridiculous question I've heard asked in a long time.

It is no different that others having expressed contempt for voters lack of knowledge of politics, government, and economics. Gut level stuff is usually not the answer, especially in the post 9/11 environment of mean-spirited, ugly Americans.

Biker
April 7, 2006, 03:57 PM
Well RealGun, it doesn't take a PHD to see the damage that unfettered immigration is doing to this country, on local and national levels.
Us Ugly Americans are mad enough to copulate with Rosie Odonnel, and that's *reeeaaaal* pissed.
So you keep on tuning in to the Ministry of Truth and the rest of us Ugly Americans are gonna make a mess or three.
Biker aka The Ugly American

bg
April 7, 2006, 04:04 PM
Side note..
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060407/ap_on_re_us/immigration_mass_deportation_1;_ylt=AmO_BvHtCgXRlTcO0zHeRD9Quk0A;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Officials at the Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency, which would be responsible for deportations, said they have no projections on what it would take to rid the United States of an estimated 12 million people.

But the Center for American Progress, a liberal think tank in Washington, has put the cost at $215 billion over five years.
On the other end..
"I think a lot of people are making emotional calls on this issue without thinking through the cost to taxpayers," said study author Rajeev Goyle, a lecturer at Wichita State University. "It would be an unbearable cost that would bankrupt the treasury. It would cost more annually than the entire budget of the Department
of Homeland Security, twice that of the annual cost
of the war in Iraq."
One thing's for sure, if the U.S had got a handle on
this from the very start it would not be as bad as it
is now, and it will only get worse if something isn't
done..

Biker
April 7, 2006, 04:07 PM
215 billion over five years would be a bargain considering the cost of what it takes to allow them to stay.
Biker

Camp David
April 7, 2006, 04:08 PM
...it doesn't take a PHD to see the damage that unfettered immigration is doing to this country, on local and national levels.

Apparently in addition to all the other problems with illegal immigration at the southern border, there is yet another issue: POLLUTION... See video at Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/) about border garbage...

Accompanying text article as follows speaks about corrupt INS officials (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,190882,00.html) (An entirely different problem)!

MadMag
April 7, 2006, 04:10 PM
Us Ugly Americans are mad enough to copulate with Rosie Odonnel

Wow, I din't know it would mean that kind of sacrifice. I would just as soon let my wife handle my 1911 Colt with sweaty hands.

RealGun
April 7, 2006, 04:10 PM
(in case you didn't know, the Civil War was fought over states' powers of secession, not slavery, which most people didn't really want anyway)

The History Channel series on Lincoln is coming up again soon.

MadMag
April 7, 2006, 04:45 PM
'Scuse me. This same statement could have been made about a large number of job applicants at my wife's little manufacturing operation--and those folks were native-born high school "graduates

Not the same situation. I am sure your wife’s employees did pay taxes and I am sure their numbers were small compared to what we are talking about…in fact that is the key difference. Did she have millions work at her factory? Also, I am sure that they did not have the instant negative impact on the welfare costs that happens with large influx of illegals.

I have lived in areas that have high influx and always…always the taxes go up much faster than the national rate…..because the local government cannot sustain the cost of free medical and welfare. It is really interesting to have my wife go for treatment and pay for insurance when you have an illegal signing in next to her and pays nothing (zero) for health care. Again, why do you think the Governor of Arizona just recently said her state cannot sustain the money load to support he welfare system that illegals use. Not just about the border patrol costs.

wingman
April 7, 2006, 05:09 PM
[QUOTE]I have lived in areas that have high influx and always…always the taxes go up much faster than the national rate…..because the local government cannot sustain the cost of free medical and welfare. [QUOTE]

Texas is now looking for new funding for schools, I've been told by local school boards texas needs a new school per day to stay up with the tide. Business does not want to pay extra although they love selling cell phones and other items to illegals. Of course the wealthy fight any income tax so the burden falls on middle-class home owners in the form of property tax.

One other important item coming across our southern border is disease of all types, kids entering schools without proper vaccinations, many parents from down south have a fear of shots for their children and local schools are required to force the policy. However false documents are common in Mexico. Our local police picked up an illegal some months back on DUI he had a false license, registration, inspection sticker and a bogus insurance card. I understand this is rather common. Come to my area and you best be packing uninsured motorist insurance.

wingman
April 7, 2006, 05:11 PM
[QUOTE]I have lived in areas that have high influx and always…always the taxes go up much faster than the national rate…..because the local government cannot sustain the cost of free medical and welfare. [QUOTE]

Texas is now looking for new funding for schools, I've been told by local school boards texas needs a new school per day to stay up with the tide. Business does not want to pay extra although they love selling cell phones and other items to illegals. Of course the wealthy fight any income tax so the burden falls on middle-class home owners in the form of property tax.

One other important item coming across our southern border is disease of all types, kids entering schools without proper vaccinations, many parents from down south have a fear of shots for their children and local schools are required to force the policy. However false documents are common in Mexico. Our local police picked up an illegal some months back on DUI he had a false license, registration, inspection sticker and a bogus insurance card. I understand this is rather common. Come to my area and you best be packing uninsured motorist insurance.

MadMag
April 7, 2006, 05:24 PM
Texas is now looking for new funding for schools

Yes, I know. I lived in El Paso and worked every day in Juarez. Just down the street from my house was a new high school on Redd Road. Each day there are cars lined up letting kids off for school. These cars are all from Mexico. The El Paso school district has a rule that they cannot ask any student if they are a citizen or press them for address. That is why El Paso has one of the highest property tax rates in the USA. Even much higher than California...where I also lived.

crazed_ss
April 7, 2006, 05:38 PM
1) Put a 100 dollar bounty on the living head of every man, woman, and child, to be collected when the merc delivers them to a border pass. No terminations allowed unless in self-defense. They are shipped across the border. Let's see if they can afford the services of a coyote every month. Mercs would be deputized specifically for immigration services only.


That is insane.

How are these "mercs" going to determine which Hispanics are legal and which ones are not? I'm pretty sure once your mercs break in someone's house and try to detain the wrong Mexican-AMERICAN, they'll be getting a load of 00 buck in the mouth.

Ridiculous.

longeyes
April 7, 2006, 06:39 PM
Officials at the Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency, which would be responsible for deportations, said they have no projections on what it would take to rid the United States of an estimated 12 million people.

But the Center for American Progress, a liberal think tank in Washington, has put the cost at $215 billion over five years.
On the other end..
Quote:
"I think a lot of people are making emotional calls on this issue without thinking through the cost to taxpayers," said study author Rajeev Goyle, a lecturer at Wichita State University. "It would be an unbearable cost that would bankrupt the treasury. It would cost more annually than the entire budget of the Department
of Homeland Security, twice that of the annual cost
of the war in Iraq."

Cheap, I'd say, to keep a country that is historically priceless.

What could be more absurd and more disingenuous than an "economic" argument to not stop an illegal invasion?

If cheap Mexican labor is the answer to America's economic problems then Mexico would already be a paradise.

longeyes
April 7, 2006, 06:43 PM
Maybe most of the illegal migrants have more to lose by going over the top than they do by behaving themselves? Same reason most of us aren't going ballistic.

A few good riots that do serious damage to life and property will end up being the Mexican lobby's worst nightmare. Any support will evaporate for years.

seeker_two
April 7, 2006, 06:47 PM
Quote:
1) Put a 100 dollar bounty on the living head of every man, woman, and child, to be collected when the merc delivers them to a border pass. No terminations allowed unless in self-defense. They are shipped across the border. Let's see if they can afford the services of a coyote every month. Mercs would be deputized specifically for immigration services only.


That is insane.

How are these "mercs" going to determine which Hispanics are legal and which ones are not? I'm pretty sure once your mercs break in someone's house and try to detain the wrong Mexican-AMERICAN, they'll be getting a load of 00 buck in the mouth.

Ridiculous.

No, but setting up like a "Crimestoppers" hotline where you get $100-500 per head for confirmed illegals (of ANY nationality) after deportation would clear the rolls pretty quick... :D

...and the LEO's may find a use for "no-knock" warrants, after all... :uhoh:

308win
April 7, 2006, 06:47 PM
A few good riots that do serious damage to life and property will end up being the Mexican lobby's worst nightmare. Any support will evaporate for years.

Wouldn't that be just too terrible!:evil:

tjbert47
April 7, 2006, 07:06 PM
I'm going to do my protesting at the polls this year and in 08!!!!!

Tom in TN:banghead:

real_name
April 7, 2006, 07:07 PM
My wife and I were discussing this just last night, how we both felt that there will likely be resistance to the protests followed closely by vigilante attacks against Hispanic people and businesses.

I am suprised that there haven't been anonymous bogus bomb threats in the cities where these protests have been held. Obviously that would cause an evacuation of the area and cancel the march.
Maybe the authorities just don't care if a bomb goes off in the middle of these marches.

Kodiaz
April 7, 2006, 07:48 PM
Would you really take the chance of making a bomb threat in this day and age.


The Padilla guy anyone. Getting zipped up and sent to GITMO to have hi voltage connected to my nads is a strong deterrent to making bomb threats. Making naked pyramids with Haji Habib and friends does not sound like a fun way to visit Cuba.

JoeSF
April 7, 2006, 07:54 PM
SF mayor encourages police not to enforce any immigraton laws
from:
http://www.freshcleanday.com/converse.html

Biker
April 7, 2006, 07:57 PM
Actually, if the bill contained many of Mexico's immigration policies, I'd be more than satisfied.

www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21973

Biker

MadMag
April 7, 2006, 09:12 PM
Not sure about the "B" word real name.....that can get a person in trouble.

meef
April 7, 2006, 09:22 PM
MadMag: Not sure about the "B" word real name.....that can get a person in trouble. At the very least it can get this thread locked... that fate that so many of these "We're Frustrated with the Illegal Invasion" threads succumb to.....:mad:

crazed_ss
April 7, 2006, 09:28 PM
My wife and I were discussing this just last night, how we both felt that there will likely be resistance to the protests followed closely by vigilante attacks against Hispanic people and businesses.

I am suprised that there haven't been anonymous bogus bomb threats in the cities where these protests have been held. Obviously that would cause an evacuation of the area and cancel the march.
Maybe the authorities just don't care if a bomb goes off in the middle of these marches.

Umm.. why would anyone do anything like that? This is California, not Tennesse. We dont automatically dont have problems with people who dont look like us.

Hawkmoon
April 7, 2006, 09:40 PM
But the Center for American Progress, a liberal think tank in Washington, has put the cost at $215 billion over five years.
On the other end..
Quote:
"I think a lot of people are making emotional calls on this issue without thinking through the cost to taxpayers," said study author Rajeev Goyle, a lecturer at Wichita State University. "It would be an unbearable cost that would bankrupt the treasury. It would cost more annually than the entire budget of the Department of Homeland Security, twice that of the annual cost
of the war in Iraq."
Hey, that works for me. I'll gladly trade in the Department of Homeland Insecurity in exchange for deporting as manu illegals annually as the DHS budget will cover.

Heck, that there's what we call a "no brainer."

CAnnoneer
April 7, 2006, 09:53 PM
How are these "mercs" going to determine which Hispanics are legal and which ones are not?

How do we do it now? Show valid documents. All the gov needs to do is stop issuing driver's licenses to illegals in the states that they still do. A driver's license is a heck of a lot more difficult to counterfeit than a silly SSN card. Also, US citizens can get a passport for 100 bucks. I did. You should. The passport also seems quite difficult to counterfeit, but not as much as the magnetic driver's license.

Come on, I can see illegals waiting for daily pickup every morning driving to work. How difficult would it be for Dawg the Bountyhunter to stake out a few convergence areas. Pick up ten - that's $1,000 a day! If you pick up the worker, he is not crazy to leave his family behind. You can bag them all. Dawg might even buy them donuts.


I'm pretty sure once your mercs break in someone's house and try to detain the wrong Mexican-AMERICAN, they'll be getting a load of 00 buck in the mouth.

Except, if the mercs are deputized, the next thing that happens is that the shooter either gets blown away or ends up in prison for a long long time. You might just as well argue for shooting police officers if they happen to search the wrong house by mistake. Are you advocating that?

crazed_ss
April 7, 2006, 10:02 PM
That's assinine.

Months ago the border patrol went around on the trolleys here trying to find illegals. What happned?.. they ended up harrassing AMERICAN CITIZENS who just happened to be Mexican or Hispanic looking.. That ended real quick like.

Here's a scenario.. the girl I used to see is a legal resident alien from Tijuana. She came over my house all the time. Now you say this Mercs just know who is illegal and who isnt... How do they know she's legal? If they come into my house trying to detain her, they can have their choice of .30-06, 00 buck , 9x19mm, or 7.62x39mm

I'm sorry, but I do not want to be a part of a "Papers please..." society.

ken grant
April 7, 2006, 10:06 PM
E-mail,Fax or call your Reps. and ask why they don't do their job as according to the U.S. Constitution Section 1,Article8

CAnnoneer
April 7, 2006, 10:07 PM
+1 MadMag

I am all for freedom of speech but the "B" word is too much. We are nationalists, not terrorists. We do not want the illegals dead, we want them to go back to their country safe and sound, and stop wrecking ours.

CAnnoneer
April 7, 2006, 10:24 PM
Months ago the border patrol went around on the trolleys here trying to find illegals. What happned?.. they ended up harrassing AMERICAN CITIZENS who just happened to be Mexican or Hispanic looking.. That ended real quick like.

I think any practical American would rather show his driver's license to an LEO who asks politely, than suffer the long-term damage from illegals and all related problems. That is one of the very small prices to pay for living in an organized society of laws.


Here's a scenario.. the girl I used to see is a legal resident alien from Tijuana. She came over my house all the time. Now you say this Mercs just know who is illegal and who isnt... How do they know she's legal?

If she is legally in the country, she will have a valid driver's license and/or possibly a green card. Green cards are magnetic and probably the least tamperable general document we have in the US. She will know to carry it. An uplink with the DMV can produce her record and photo. We have the technology. Why not use it?


If they come into my house trying to detain her, they can have their choice of .30-06, 00 buck , 9x19mm, or 7.62x39mm

Hehehehe. Dude, you are one crazy son of a gun. I like you. But, do you really think it would be healthy to "release your anger"?


I'm sorry, but I do not want to be a part of a "Papers please..." society.

That's the illusion. We already do live in a "Papieren Bitte" society. Have you tried to make a major purchase lately? Paid a bill? Taken a loan? Signed a lease? Applied for a job? Taken an insurance?

It is numbers, numbers, numbers. Passwords, credit cards, on-line statements, your credit score, SSN, biometrics, DMV record, purchasing record, your Ralf's, Vons, Albertson's card, your professional memberships, your security clearance, email address, IP, driver's license, passport, et cetera, et cetera.

Face it.

crazed_ss
April 7, 2006, 10:37 PM
Well, I dont want to sound extreme :)

But it sounds like you're advocating infringing on other people's rights "for the greater good" .. Sounds like the argument that says "If you're not doing anything wrong, then you shouldnt be worried" .. that makes me uneasy.

If I were an American of Hispanic decent, I'd be extremely offended if I was forced to prove my citizenship whenever some LEO or deputized person demanded it. That's not what America is about.

The way I see it, the 11 million or so illegals that are here now arent going back anytime soon. We need to cut our losses and crackdown on border security from now on.

longeyes
April 7, 2006, 10:40 PM
The way I see it, the 11 million or so illegals that are here now arent going back anytime soon.

So we keep hearing.

I'd watch it with the Mexican flag-waving. Things change.

Biker
April 7, 2006, 10:44 PM
Smell that? Smells like an American Giant waking up to me. I kinda like it.:)
Biker

CAnnoneer
April 7, 2006, 10:56 PM
But it sounds like you're advocating infringing on other people's rights "for the greater good" .. Sounds like the argument that says "If you're not doing anything wrong, then you shouldnt be worried" .. that makes me uneasy.

I understand. But, the reality remains we live in an extremely complex society with incredible and mounting technology. It is inevitable that that will affect our habits and expectations. In a sense, we as individuals are victims of our own success as a species. The practical issue is where we draw the line of intrusiveness and what compromises we are willing to make in an imperfect world. I think the Brits are insane with their 24/7 surveillance, but am not bothered about carrying a driver's license to drive my car and use my credit cards.


If I were an American of Hispanic decent, I'd be extremely offended if I was forced to prove my citizenship whenever some LEO or deputized person demanded it. That's not what America is about.

I'd be resentful, yes. Offended, no. If a bunch of cracker euros invade America illegally by under-ocean tunnels, I'd end up on the same page and would resent them, not the mercs, cops, or feds, for my inconveniences. I certainly would not fight for their right to break our laws, and neither would I wave foreign flags just because of shared complexion or ethnicity. Again, this is not about ethnicity/race, it is about nationality.

wingman
April 7, 2006, 10:57 PM
The way I see it, the 11 million or so illegals that are here now arent going back anytime soon. We need to cut our losses and crackdown on border security from now on.


We heard that with the last amnesty did not work then won't work now unless
we seal border with fence and troops.

Art Eatman
April 7, 2006, 11:10 PM
MadMag, the border-crossings to drop Mexican-national kids off at US schools has been going on for decades. Not just major cities like El Paso or Brownsville; even here in Terlingua until they closed the border crossing at Lajitas.

Our school lost some of its best baseball players. :D

Art

MadMag
April 7, 2006, 11:15 PM
I agree that any immigration bill is useless without sealing the border.

The people directing the illegals do make mistakes. I think their latest comments about being “the backbone of the country” and saying they “will shutdown this country on May 1st” will work against them. We have been discussing this here, but thanks to those kinds of statements a lot more Americans are going to be aware of what is really at stake.

I wish they would strike for a month…not just a day.

MadMag
April 7, 2006, 11:21 PM
MadMag, the border-crossings to drop Mexican-national kids off at US schools has been going on for decades.

Not saying they have not been going on...just saying we cannot afford to pay for free medical & schooling. Getting bigger at exponential rate.

The models are there. Any area that has high influx of illegals has very high tax rates to support the free (to them) welfare programs. The low cost of labor does not come close to returning this lost money.

To add: Why is it so terrible to expect someone to contribute to the system they are using? When I worked in Mexico I paid Mexico taxes and money for a special visa. And I don't buy the answer of they use fake ID and do pay their taxes.....no one would really accept that as a system to use.

Also, I hate to hear about the hard jobs only they work....I did all of those jobs when I was young for low pay and paid taxes. I think them working hard jobs mainly impress people that have not done that themselves.

MadMag
April 7, 2006, 11:54 PM
I will let this rest for a while and so I don't tie up too much air time.

You could not tell by my postings that I actually liked El Paso and working in Mexico....just want people to pay their fare share.

I am over 65 and want my senior discount.:D

Foxtrot427
April 8, 2006, 12:12 AM
How far do you think this is going to go? Will it become a possible SHTF situation? How is it possible, just by statistics, for so many mentally Ill people to get into political office?

Sindawe
April 8, 2006, 12:24 AM
How is it possible, just by statistics, for so many mentally Ill people to get into political office? I think positions of political office draws two kind of people.

1. Those who wish to contribute back to their society via public service. Those are few and far between, sadly.

2. Those who have a lust for power and control, for its own sake. Those are common as fleas on a stray dog. It is just happenstance that a enough of those kind of people can can sweet talk the rest of us who just want to be left alone.

As for how this is gonna go, I think it will go so far that at least a small (if not larger number) of people are gonna get shooting mad. People on both sides of the issue are gonna die, and as a result our liberties will be further eroded in the name of fair play and equal outcomes.

garyk/nm
April 8, 2006, 12:25 AM
Seems to me that illegals are being over-represented, and the taxpaying class is being under-represented.
So let's all become illegals! Let's pick a law that we don't like and break it as a group. Then when the goobers start to whine, we'll hold mass protests and demand all sorts of good free stuff and unconditional amnesty. If they won't give it to us, then we'll threaten a walkout...a "Day Without Taxpayers".
They couldn't take action against us, because it would cost too much to prosecute, say, 200 million people, right?
So, which law will it be? I'm thinking taxes, but I'm open to suggestions. :p

ConstitutionCowboy
April 8, 2006, 12:35 AM
1) Secure the borders. (Stems the flow.)

2) Impose confiscatory fines on people and companies who/that hire foreign nationals who are here illegally.(Removes the attraction.)

3) Elect a president willing to exercise the Commander in Chief authority to faithfully execute the laws regarding border security.(Implements enforcement.)

4) Elect congressmen willing to fund the necessary costs of guarding our borders.(Assures continued enforcement.)

Woody

"Peace, Prosperity, and Freedom: Magic elixirs of life brought to you courtesy of the Constitution for the United States of America." "Terrorism, Poverty, and Subjugation: World dominating poisons of life; brought to you courtesy of the United Nations". B.E.Wood

MadMag
April 8, 2006, 12:37 AM
So let's all become illegals

That's an idea I can live with. We could come up with a slogan like "take this tax and shove it". Maybe we could get Hillary to be our spokes person. She seems to know a lot about taxes and money.:D

Freedspeak
April 8, 2006, 12:38 AM
H*ll, thats twice what I make doing home maintainence/repair. Maybe I need to relook at my rates!

You sure he didn't say 5/hr.?

longeyes
April 8, 2006, 01:11 AM
$50 an hour is chump change to a man who married hundreds of millions of dollars.

RealGun
April 8, 2006, 04:14 AM
The way I see it, the 11 million or so illegals that are here now arent going back anytime soon. We need to cut our losses and crackdown on border security from now on. - crazed_ss

+1. That's the plan, recognizing that "cutting our losses" is no different than "amnesty" for a large portion of illegals who have become embedded for some time. Part of it is accepting blame for not having taken action earlier, including not having imposed taxes to cover enforcement or working out jurisdictional issues between the Feds, border States, and States with ports of entry. We also do not have genuine working agreements with neighboring countries, both of which are our top oil suppliers with too much leverage. We also have major manufacturing operations in both Canada and Mexico.

Lastly, it is a fallacy to think of illegal aliens as all Mexican. 39,000 Chinese are staged for deportation, waiting for China's okay to accept them back. There are probably millions from Central America, having crossed Mexico's southern border. Some crossed the Canadian border. Some are from Ireland or all over Europe, the Middle East, you name it.

One should be my niece's ex-husband, who dropped her two weeks after he got his green card, thanks to having married a citizen. He wasn't reported.

RealGun
April 8, 2006, 04:25 AM
I think positions of political office draws two kind of people.

1. Those who wish to contribute back to their society via public service. Those are few and far between, sadly. - Sindawe

Some of those are do-gooder socialists. Be careful what you wish for. Rich kids like John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, and Al Gore come to mind.

RealGun
April 8, 2006, 04:43 AM
“will shutdown this country on May 1st”

Why not Cinco de Mayo (http://www.vivacincodemayo.org/history.htm)?:rolleyes:

MadMag
April 8, 2006, 09:26 AM
Why not Cinco de Mayo?

That's a good question. I have thought about this and I can only guess that May Day is more important. It goes to show you what kind of people are really running this movement. Their thinking goes well beyond getting illegals good jobs, they have a socialist agenda that's behind the movement.

So, good question Cinco de Mayo would be the natural choice for Mexico, but May Day is the socialist workers revolution....that has never worked.

Thin Black Line
April 8, 2006, 09:30 AM
I hope the people on the Hill (especially Diane Feinstein) are paying attention:

http://www.aztlan.net/la_gran_marcha.htm

Los Angeles, Alta California - March 26, 2006 - (ACN) Yesterday's march and rally for immigrant rights in downtown Los Angeles is the largest in the city's history. Never has the "City of Angels" seen so many demonstrators filling the streets of the city's center. The sleeping giant has finally awaken giving rise to a new immigrant civil rights movement of unprecedented proportions.

The leadership of the various participating groups demonstrated extraordinary organizational skills. Much credit goes to the over 700,000 marchers, that included entire families, for their superb orderly behavior. There was not one act of violence even though the vile "Minutemen Vigilantes" had made threats against "La Gran Marcha" on their websites.
...
What does the immense success of "La Gran Marcha" mean to Mexicanos and other Latinos? It simply means that we now have the numbers, the political will and the organizational skills to direct our own destinies and not be subservient to the White and Jewish power structures. It means that we can now undertake bigger and more significant mass actions to achieve total political and economic liberation like that being proposed by Juan José Gutiérrez, President of Movimiento Latino USA. Juan José Gutiérrez is proposing that the coalition that organized "La Gran Marcha" meet in Arizona or Texas on April 8 to "organize a mass boycott (huelga) against the economy of the USA" to take place on May 1, May 5 or May 19.


http://www.aztlan.net/nahr_delegation_to_mexico.htm


A principal purpose of the meetings is to establish closer ties (acercamiento) between Mexicanos/Latinos and the respective "mother nations" in the Western Hemisphere. The immigration debate has in the past been dominated by White immigrants from mostly northern European countries. The immigration problem began with the arrival of the Mayflower at Plymouth Rock Rock in 1620. These White refugees from England survived their first winter through the assistance of the local natives but later they betrayed their benefactors by massacring and literally imprisoning them in "reservations camps". Subsequently, these White immigrants moved westward and through their notion of "Manifest Destiny" confiscated vast territories from Mexico. The immigration problem from Europe was greatly aggravated when between 1892 to 1954 over 12 million White migrants arrived at Ellis Island in New York City.


http://www.aztlan.net/el_gran_boicot.htm


Los Angeles, Alta California - March 31, 2006 - (ACN) The coalition that brought over 700,000 pro-immigrant rights marchers to Los Angeles announced yesterday that the next mass action will be "an economic and labor boycott that will paralyze the US economy". The planned boycott, which now has international support, is to protest the racist HR4437 legislation being debated in the US Senate.

Dr. Armando Navarro, coordinator of the National Alliance for Human Rights (NAHR), said "We are living through very dangerous times and we must take advantage of the moment. If we just sit and wait to see what happens, everything we have accomplished so far may go to waste. That is why we must continue the struggle to once and for all defeat that racist proposal (HR4437)".

Coalition member Roberto Reveles of "Unidos en Arizona" said that they will help host a "Summit Meeting" in Phoenix, Arizona to work out the details of the "international economic and labor boycott". The summit will take place on April 8th and 9th. The boycott will take place on May 1 (Day of the International Solidarity of Workers) or May 5 (Cinco de Mayo). To be debated is whether a boycott beginning on May 1 and ending with a huge "fiesta" on May 5 can be sustained.
...
The two day summit will be attended by Mexican-American and other Latino groups from Nevada, Texas, Wisconsin, Washington, New York, Chicago, California and other states. Representatives from Mexico, Central and South America will also be present. A major focus of the meeting will be to finalize the details of the boycott.

Dr. Armando Navarro of the NAHR said that the "international boycott" counts on the support of the consulates of Bolivia, Brazil, Venezuela, Colombia, Cuba and Mexico, as well as that of Mexican labor organizations. The coalition welcomes the support of other countries abroad.

"We have to demonstrate to the nation, one more time, that its economic stability depends on us. I am sure that our sister nations of Latin America, who are also tired of the situation, will unite with us", Professor Navarro said. "That is why we will celebrate May 1, 'Day of the Worker', with labor strikes, no purchases and go out and march. Soon they will see the impact we will have!", he concluded.


http://www.aztlan.net/riverside_summit.htm


Dr. Armando Navarro, Professor of Ethnic Studies at UCR and coordinator of the Summit, said that NAHR plans to focus on leaders in America, Mexico, and Central and South American countries. There are plans to send a delegation to Mexico to meet with President Vicente Fox. Also, NAHR plans to meet with Senator Diane Feinstein, other members of Congress and Ambassadors from other countries to solicit their support against H.R. 4437.

"If they come out openly and protest, that would influence the Senate because it would create a diplomatic problem for the Bush administration," Professor Navarro said. "Basically we as Mexicanos and Latinos are facing what some of us describe as literally a political war," he added. Dr. Navarro concluded, "Understanding the horrific anti-immigrant political climate rampant throughout the country and the severity of the consequences of the racist Sensenbrenner legislation, in particular the building of an Iron Curtain along the U.S./Mexico border, Mexicanos and Latinos in this country are under a state of siege reminiscent of the McCarthy Era."


What was that again?

Also, NAHR plans to meet with Senator Diane Feinstein, other members of Congress and Ambassadors from other countries to solicit their support against H.R. 4437.

And?

It simply means that we now have the numbers, the political will and the organizational skills to direct our own destinies and not be subservient to the White and Jewish power structures.

Ok, just wanted Diane to be clear on that point....;)

gm
April 8, 2006, 11:56 AM
I think longeyes response.."If cheap Mexican labor is the answer to America's economic problems then Mexico would already be a paradise..." is a good analogy. consider the fact that employers want cheap labor, consider the fact that costs have gone up for everything: health insurance is out of control,local taxes have to go up to absorb the rate of folks coming in that use the system with no money to pay- as an analogy to immigration, imagine 11 million new welfare recipiants.where does it leads us?personally, I believe the numbers of illegals to be FAR greater than stated.
-cheaper wages,bankrupt programs, higher taxes to help recover the costs.. and a greater rift between the working poor and the rich.


so we continue to complaint about everything costing so much, ID theft,stolen SS numbers,pollution,the drug war and the health care system yet we watch it all coming in daily and all some folks worry bout is more votes.
:barf:

Sindawe
April 8, 2006, 12:02 PM
Apparently some parents and other patriotic citizens here in Colorado decided to make their views known after a principal of a Middle School banned camo and flag related clothing. The ban was lifted after parental pressure and a letter from the Colorado Attorney General, prior to the protest. Some folks still understand freedom.

http://www.cairco.org/events/shaw_school_2006apr07.html

Sindawe
April 8, 2006, 12:16 PM
Creekstone closes a day for Hispanics

By FOSS FARRAR
Traveler Staff Writer

Creekstone Farms Premium Beef will close operations Monday to honor its predominately Hispanic workforce.

Monday is a day of national protests against a proposed immigration bill approved by the House of Representatives.

"We really agree with the perspective of the Hispanic community," said Rusty Wright, the company's director of human resources. "We don't like the proposed law, especially building the wall."

He referred to a proposal by the House of Representatives, HR 4437, that makes it a felony to be an illegal immigrant. It also makes it a crime to assist illegals, and such a measure could affect social workers and teachers.

Some Congressional leaders have proposed building a wall along the Mexican border with the United States.

On Thursday, Democratic and Republican leaders in the Senate indicated they would support a compromise immigration reform bill. It would allow most illegal immigrants to work toward permanent legal status.

Wright said about 75 percent of Creekstone's 750 employees are Hispanic, and the company decision to close down Monday is to encourage their participation in peaceful protest to HR 4437.

"There is a lot of mixed opinions on this controversial bill," Wright said. "I don't think we mind having our opinion."

Kevin Pentz, Creekstone's operations director, said Creekstone's largest asset is its employees. "When you have 75 percent of our employees who are Hispanic, you have to support that endeavor," he said of the protest.

All applicants for Creekstone jobs are screened through an INS screening system, Pentz said, referring to a computer system provided by the Immigration and Naturalization Service.

"It's linked up with Homeland Security, we review their documents and photos," Wright added.

In other words, Homeland Security says any worker hired by Creekstone is eligible to work, he said. All employees are approved by the INS.

"Our industry is similar to construction, hotels and restaurants," Pentz said. "People think the Hispanics are taking away from jobs that could go to other people. But in reality, these are jobs people don't care to have. These are skilled labor jobs, hard work."

It's a big deal to close down the plant for a day, he added. The company must continue to pay ongoing utility and maintenance costs and reschedule trailer loads of live cattle due to arrive Monday.

"We'll have close to 30 trailer loads of live cattle to reschedule," he said. "We'll have to work a few extra hours next week and probably next Saturday to make up for lost production."

Creekstone processes 5,000 head of cattle a week, he said. The company plans to remain at full production next week.

Source: http://www.arkcity.net/stories/040706/com_0003.shtmlIts almost worth taking up eating red meat again, just to boycott Creekstone.

Thin Black Line
April 8, 2006, 12:32 PM
http://latino.sscnet.ucla.edu/research/docs/struggle/index.html

For La Raza to do. Fuera de La Raza nada.

Someone care to translate?

http://www.eagleforum.org/column/2006/feb06/06-02-15.html

IEDs seized in TX?! I wonder why that didn't make the news?
Like to know more? Yes, let's:


Sheriff A. D’Wayne Jernigan
Val Verde County, Texas
Texas Border Sheriff’s Coalition

Wednesday, March 1, 2006

Written Testimony on "Federal Strategies to End Border Violence"

Before the Senate Judiciary Committee Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security and Citizenship And Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology, and Homeland Security
...

We have seen the border become more violent and criminally active than at any point in our careers. Our officers rarely encounter the socio-economic illegal alien of the past, but routinely encounter criminal illegal aliens.
...

Yes, let's repeat that again before we continue:

Our officers rarely encounter the socio-economic illegal alien of the past, but routinely encounter criminal illegal aliens.

Through intelligence information we have also learned that several murders in
Laredo, Webb County, Texas, have been orchestrated by members of drug cartels
operating in both countries. These drug cartel enforcers cross the Rio Grande River,
commit their murders in the United States, then head back to Mexico, again, via the Rio
Grande River. We have all seen in the media the reports of the murders in Nuevo
Laredo, 24 so far in the first 36 days of 2006. These murders are connected to
organizations in both Mexico and the United States. In February, a Task Force in Laredo
Texas confiscated Improvised Explosive Devices as well as items used to make explosive
devices. Border Patrol agents and deputy sheriffs have been shot at from Mexico on a
routine basis. Just last month a sniper in Mexico shot at agents that were working along
the banks of the river in the area of the cities of Rio Bravo/El Cenizo. This continued,
sporadically, for three days. Agents reported seeing several individuals wearing military
style uniforms on a hill on the Mexican side, one of them was using what was believed to
be a high powered rifle with scope.
...
During this same time period, a high-ranking member of the Mara Salvatrucha, or
MS-13, was apprehended in the Brooks County area, also in south Texas. He had entered
the country illegally. This MS-13 member is believed to have been responsible for the
killing of close to 30 persons, or more, in a bus explosion in his native country. It is my
understanding that he had a lengthy criminal record in the United States. This person, as
many others, find it very easy to come into our country through a very porous, wideopen,
and unprotected border. Twenty seven members of the MS-13 were apprehended
entering the United States in the Del Rio area of operations during the month of January,
2006.

We have received information that the drug trafficking organizations immediately
across our border are planning on killing as many police officers as possible on the
United States side. This is being planned for the purpose of attempting to "scare us"
away from the border. The recent activities of the drug trafficking organization operating
in the Hudspeth, El Paso County areas have included threats against the families of
Deputy Sheriff’s. In one incident subjects made threats to the wife of a Hudspeth County
Sheriff’s Sergeant at their home. The drug trafficking organizations have the money,
equipment, and stamina to carry out their threats. They are determined to protect their
illicit trade. It is my opinion that these drug trafficking organizations may form an
alliance with Islamo Fascist terrorist organizations. The Department of Homeland
Security recently issued Officer Alerts warning their agents of such potential threats.
We, the local officers, learned about the warning through the news media.
...
On February 2nd of this year, deputies in Zavala County discovered an 18" duffle
bag approximately 8 miles North of Zapata by the highway right of way. This duffel bag
had "Armada de Mexico" embroidered on the bag. Inside the bag were several items that
are commonly used to maintain higher levels of physical exertion. Inside the bag, a bus
ticket with an origin of Veracruz, Mexico was found. I have attached photographs of the
duffle bag and marked it as Attachment #5.

Employees of our offices have also seen incursions into this country of persons
dressed in battle dress uniforms (BDUs), carrying what officers believe to be automatic
weapons, very clean cut, and in very good physical condition. On March 3rd, 2005,
several officers assigned to do surveillance by the Rio Grande River by the Zapata/Webb
County line observed approximately 20-25 subjects dressed as indicated above. The
subjects were walking on a gravel road, coming from riverbank, and marching in a
cadence. The deputy observed these individuals through his borrowed night vision
goggles. These individuals were carrying large duffle bags and walking two abreast.
They were each armed with assault rifles.

In the town site of Zapata, residents report subjects getting off boats wearing
BDUs, backpacks, and carrying weapons. The residents describe them as soldiers.
...


http://www.hackworth.com/26jan99.html

In 2020, Southern California will be predominately Hispanic. Imagine if California-born Hispanic leaders following the Kosovar rebel scenario convinced their followers that the home of the Rose Bowl Parade was theirs. They could argue, "This land belonged to our forefathers long before the English settled Jamestown. They came with guns and took it from us. We're taking it back and: A) Rejoining Mexico; B) Creating a new republic called Aztlan; C) Forming a Commonwealth similar to Puerto Rico."

Nah....can't happen here.....

longeyes
April 8, 2006, 12:53 PM
How far do you think this is going to go? Will it become a possible SHTF situation? How is it possible, just by statistics, for so many mentally Ill people to get into political office?

The stuff has been hitting the fan for many years, at least if you live, as I do, in the war zone--and we are, make no mistake about it, in a war here. You can be mugged fast or in slow-motion. In this instance, so far, it's slow-motion. But already there are many victims, at many levels, ranging from the battered taxpayer to the myriad of people who been in the way of illegal alien criminal activity.

Meanwhile, illustrating that arrogant fools talk to each other and don't listen, Bush is blaming Reid for this great and wonderful bill not passing the Senate. Is he utterly unaware that the vast majority of Americans DO NOT WANT THIS? What will it take before they get the message?

2020 is a long, long way away. Things move very fast these days. I don't believe that the tortoise-pace of demographic inevitability will rule this issue. Other points of "inflection" will occur first, and they won't be subtle--but they will be determinative.

longeyes
April 8, 2006, 12:56 PM
How far do you think this is going to go? Will it become a possible SHTF situation? How is it possible, just by statistics, for so many mentally Ill people to get into political office?

There is a lot of sickness to go around. America is like an abused wife who comes to figure beatings are "normal." Then one day she's had ENOUGH! That day is coming, and the abusive political class had better pay attention.

MadMag
April 8, 2006, 05:29 PM
I have asked my wife to save a weeks shopping for May 1st. If the local stores don't see her for a week they will probably have a limo pick her up for a shopping spree.

I just sent a protest Email to Stonecreek Farms about their employee boycott for May 1st. angusinfo@cfpbeef.com <angusinfo@cfpbeef.com>
I told them to forget me buying their beef in the future.

MadMag
April 8, 2006, 05:44 PM
Some good points in the above posts about the Latino movement and it’s leaders.

I have come to realize that this has become much more than just good jobs for immigrants. I noticed that the Latino leaders are not really interested in better jobs or even citizenship for illegals. By their own words (and threats) they are saying that they don’t need us to determine their fate….they now have the power to do what they want. And what they want is much more than just helping illegals get jobs. They want their own socialistic system installed. They have also indicated that they can do this because Americans are soft and will not work to stop this intrusion.

Their only real fear is closing the border . They see each illegal as a soldier not a potential immigrant worker.

This situation is hard for some Americans because they see some of the illegals on a personal level and just see someone trying to better their life. There is truth to this, but they are now being guided by forces with different ideas. So, we still must take action and let these people know that Americans have steel (tempered by freedom) behind that nice soft exterior.

progunner1957
April 8, 2006, 06:23 PM
This "breakthrough":barf: that the Senate rammed through is like a two foot length of 2"x4" up the keister.

If Reichmarshall Hillary gets elected in '08, we'd better be able to accomodate a four foot length of 4"x4" fence post...:what:
Illegal immigrants in the country for between two and five years could obtain a temporary work visa after reporting to a border point of entry. Aides referred to this as "touch base and return," since people covered would know in advance they would be readmitted to the United States.
"Touch base and return?" Sounds more like "catch and release."

To secure the border, the bill calls for a virtual fence — as opposed to the literal barrier contained in House legislation — consisting of surveillance cameras, sensors and other monitoring equipment along the long, porous border with Mexico.
"Virtual fence?" Virtually nonexsistant enforcement.:barf: :barf:

longeyes
April 8, 2006, 06:40 PM
A virtual fence to go with a virtual government.

Hillary may become President. She will have a hard time governing. The Few are doing their best to de-legitimize their own authority.

My feeling is that the U.S. will begin resembling Iraq, politically, in a few years. Now that would be ironic, wouldn't it?

Biker
April 8, 2006, 06:41 PM
Sadly, it would be fitting.

Biker

longeyes
April 8, 2006, 07:08 PM
A virtual fence--I prefer to call it a "welcoming" fence--with plenty of video surveillance, should form the basis for a very popular reality tv show. American Immigrant? Watch 'em come. Pick your favorite.

Who needs border enforcement when you can make book on exactly how many will cross in any 24-hour period? This could be a whole new government-spawned lottery.

MadMag
April 8, 2006, 07:08 PM
I know that there are other important things to accomplish, but I hope we can make an issue of this proposed Latino May 1st boycott. We should try to get the politicians to go our way, but we now have the power to show them we can standup when they say they are going to shutdown USA business for a day.

By making sure we shop on that day and protesting any business like Stonecreek Farms that lets it employess off in support of the boycott....we can make them take notice that boycotts are a two edged sword.

CAnnoneer
April 8, 2006, 09:44 PM
The ultimate reason why the WashDCers are squabbling over the hispanic vote is because they believe that the rest of America is nicely and securely packed up along "party lines".

I encourage all of you who read this to consider showing them that that is not so, by voting for anybody but D and R. Both of those are in the process of rapid disintegration, but their fuhrers are too self-absorbed to recognize it.

The Big Tent is a foolish and dangerous myth. It serves to trick the majority into empowering the minority. Neocon globalists and traditional conservatives have no business being together, just as commies and true liberals are fundamentally incompatible.

Let's have a true political discussion with many parties. That will expose the extremists for who they really are. Let's ask ourselves how creatures like most of our current fuhrers would survive in such an environment.

MadMag
April 8, 2006, 09:54 PM
CAnnoneer,

I agree. For the first time I am considering other than D & R. Use to think that was wasting my vote, but no longer.

I like the artillery statment. I was in artillery FDC in Army.

seeker_two
April 9, 2006, 12:19 AM
Just like it took for the gov't to take Islamic terrorism seriously...


...it'll take another large body count before they pay attention... :banghead:


...and I'm worried about who'll be among the body count... :uhoh:

Kim
April 9, 2006, 12:33 AM
Oh my goodness the lefty socialist racists also hate the JJJJJOOOOOOOOOOOEEEEESSSSSSSSSSS. Imagine that. When are the 75% of Jews who vote Democratic going to wake up and see their political party has become their worst enemy. Will it be to late? Bill Clinton said he would pick up a rifle and jump in a trench to fight for Israel. Yes do you believe that crap. He would not pick up a rifle to save his own. :what:

Kodiaz
April 9, 2006, 01:34 AM
Like that ladies poster said Plan B

longeyes
April 9, 2006, 02:28 AM
The May Day boycott should be branded for what it is: a form of insurgency dreamed up, instigated, and funded by far-left socialist and socialist-sympathizing organizations. Picking May 1 is, of course, no accident; it is a well-known international symbolic date of long standing. Identifying the immigration plans of the American establishment and Mexican government with a long-term plan to bring socialism to America is the way to discredit the entire "America the Welcoming" model. Importing massive waves of Third World poverty can have no other result than a massive expansion of the welfare state, multiculturalism, and political balkanization.

MadMag
April 9, 2006, 09:47 AM
The May Day boycott should be branded for what it is: a form of insurgency dreamed up, instigated, and funded by far-left socialist and socialist-sympathizing organizations.

It is starting to work against them. I just read a headline news that a new AP poll says Americans see immigration control as one of the most important issues in the country. Their threats are working against them. I think picking May day for a boycott to hurt American business will now alert more Americans as to their real agenda.

Not to mention: boycott to hurt the country that gave them jobs they cannot get in their own country in addition to free medical and schooling. I call that biting the hand that feeds you.

CAnnoneer
April 9, 2006, 04:36 PM
Importing massive waves of Third World poverty can have no other result than a massive expansion of the welfare state, multiculturalism, and political balkanization.

And that is exactly what our Lords want.

The leftists know that they are finished as a significant influence among the general public. What they want is America to become socialist, gunless Europe, and beyond. But, they saw in the past several elections that the majority simply does not buy it anymore. Even if many agree with some of the Dem economic policies more than the trickle-down Neocon nonsense, most simply do not want to bite into the cultural sidedish that comes with it. If they play fair, the leftists among the Dems know they are history. That is why they want a fresh influx of gullible ignorant peons to proletariatize and rile up.

The Neocons know that they are equally finished. They see the great dissent and division among the Reps, and they know they are a island of crazies in a sea of conservatives. They know that they will either run the party into the ground or make it split apart or get booted off by it. So, they need a fresh influx of ignorant religious peons to sell "values" to and placate with the Mahoney's of the world.

Why is it then a surprise to see the Thane of MacKodos and the Phantom Duke hand-in-hand with the Archduke of Chappaquidick and the Grand Duchess of California? They all want the same thing - dilute and outmanover a disillusioned angry electorate.

longeyes
April 9, 2006, 08:48 PM
The leftists know that they are finished as a significant influence among the general public. What they want is America to become socialist, gunless Europe, and beyond. But, they saw in the past several elections that the majority simply does not buy it anymore. Even if many agree with some of the Dem economic policies more than the trickle-down Neocon nonsense, most simply do not want to bite into the cultural sidedish that comes with it. If they play fair, the leftists among the Dems know they are history. That is why they want a fresh influx of gullible ignorant peons to proletariatize and rile up.


It's not just the illegal immigrant wave, though, that is proto-socialist. A big chunk of our elites have bitten the apple, enthusiastically. It's just being sold differently. In the last ten years it has become de rigueur to look at everyone and everything in business and government in light of "culture" and "diversity." These are the new code words for what I call demographic socialism, parsing the world and work force by race, ethnicity, and culture and creating privileges for the "under-served" and the "under-represented."

bg
April 9, 2006, 10:28 PM
Kinda hard to believe they'd pick the 1st..isn't that
the day the Gov kicks loose millions in welfare checks ?

Sorry I know it's low road..but I see em at the local ck
cashing joints, getting their dough. Of course not all
doing this are illegal, but just one, is tooo much !

MadMag
April 9, 2006, 10:51 PM
Kinda hard to believe they'd pick the 1st

I have a story. I read an article on Yahoo that a company called Stonecreek Farms Beef was going to give its Hispanic employees off for May 1st so they could protest. I found their Web site and sent an Email….not real nasty…just saying I was not going to buy their products if they wanted to take such action.

Well now the web site is gone. Not sure what happened but maybe they got so many complaints they had to remove their web site…I hope so.

That’s Ok, my wife is saving a weeks shopping for May 1st…..the way she shops that should advance the economy by several points.:D

And yes, I am sure Lenin would be proud of the May Day choice.

xd9fan
April 10, 2006, 01:54 AM
Its all right there.....
Its clear to me that dems and the GOP do not know what the hell they are doing.......the dems are socialists.....but most americas and most people on this website will continue to reward the GOP with thier vote....out of fear or whatever.....and nothing will change.

My biggest source of frustration is the american voter putting the blinders on and putting themselves into a box thinking that there are only two choices to vote for. Both of which are Pro-Govt. And yet wonder why socialist/big Govt is growing.

The illegals know they are going to get away with it. I dont blame the illegals for their behavior. I blame the legal american voter that only choose bwtn the 2 Pro-Govt parties and really thinks change will happen!!!!!

Desertdog
April 10, 2006, 02:01 AM
Kinda hard to believe they'd pick the 1st..isn't that
the day the Gov kicks loose millions in welfare checks ?
It is also the day the Communist show the strength of their armed forces.
Do you think that there may be any connections?

RealGun
April 10, 2006, 06:34 AM
Sorry I know it's low road..but I see em at the local ck
cashing joints, getting their dough. Of course not all
doing this are illegal, but just one, is tooo much ! - bg

They probably are illegal. You can't deal with a bank without opening an account, and you can't open an account without proper identification. If you made it so that only a bank, perhaps only FDIC banks, could transfer funds out of the country, especially to Banco de Mexico, you would close off a lot of the funds transfers to Mexico by illegal aliens ($16 billion per year, taxed by Mexico before their bank releases it).

Clean97GTI
April 10, 2006, 07:09 AM
After reading how others here are finally starting to see that voting D or R is actually the problem, a great big smile broke across my face.

I've been saying it since our last election.

Voting for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil.
Vote your conscience and convince others to do so as well. If we can break the choke hold that our two-party system has on governmental power, we could actually save our country without resorting to revolutionary violence.

For the longest time, the Democrats have pretended to be against big business and were the voice of the working man.
For the longest time, the Republicans have been supporters of business to improve the standards of the people.

Finally, The High Road is seeing that both parties are in the most lucrative of all business ventures...politics and power.

PLEASE, Vote Libertarian. Vote Constitution. Vote Green. Vote something other than party line. Stop throwing your vote (that wee bit of power) back into the parties who constantly steal from you and stab you in the back.
I've been saying it for years and now more of you are catching what I was saying. This isn't some piddly issue like gun control...we already have the guns. We have the control.
This is much greater that taxes or guns...this is about the representatives we elect ignoring us when they get to power. They got into power and closed the door behind them. :(

MadMag
April 10, 2006, 09:54 AM
Quote: You can't deal with a bank without opening an account,

In our area we just recently had the FDIC order a main stream bank to stop it's loans to illegals. They were loaning money to illegals that used false ID. The bank was of course charging higher than normal intrest rate...so no favor to the illegals. Anyway, the INS does not care but the FDIC is tough (as others should be) and told the bank to stop immediately. BTW, this bank had big signs out front telling the illegals in Spanish to come in and get loans.

Anyway, the FDIC didn't think using false ID is just a minor issue...as many would have us believe.

CAnnoneer
April 10, 2006, 09:59 AM
PLEASE, Vote Libertarian. Vote Constitution. Vote Green.

Chances are I'll vote Conservative - I agree with them in every issue but abortion. But, the point is made - D and R are dead to me. It is only a matter of time before they split apart and find themselves at the boneyard of history. Let's not follow them there as a nation.

seeker_two
April 10, 2006, 10:19 AM
PLEASE, Vote Libertarian. Vote Constitution. Vote Green. Vote something other than party line. Stop throwing your vote (that wee bit of power) back into the parties who constantly steal from you and stab you in the back.

(...and I SO enjoy saying this... :neener: )


!!!IF YOU VOTE REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT, YOU'RE THROWING YOUR VOTE AWAY!!!

MadMag
April 10, 2006, 01:54 PM
wow, you really have big letters.

longeyes
April 10, 2006, 01:58 PM
"What a field-day for the heat
A million people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side
It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down..."

Hey, no more banderas mejicanas. Learn fast. Smart. Give the gabachos the flag they want to see. All very, very, very American now. Civil rights for all.

Right.

A million people in the street and not ONE illegal immigration thread in L&P. Interesting.

bg
April 10, 2006, 02:07 PM
Got to tell though, when I first saw this pic, I bout ruined
my keyboard...again. I've learned to put a plastic
cover on it, but I have to give this guy a bit of credit
for just trying a stunt like this. He gave me a
darn good ha,ha this morning.

http://tiger.towson.edu/users/kbeach3/mexican%20as%20car%20seat.jpg

MadMag
April 10, 2006, 02:16 PM
wake me up when I'm supposed to salute

I hear what you are saying, but middle class Americans have always been lousy at making protest marches. I plan to attend any that I can on May 1st to protest their protest. I looks like we still have the numbers at the ballot box and that is where we will probably have to apply our main protest. The lack of protest on the middle class side frustrates me, but I hope they are starting now to wake to the reality of the true agenda of the Latino Movement. Also, that average Americans understand the real economic cost of free wefare support to a segment of the population.

Never before in our history have immirgrants come to this country with anything other than the wish to become citizens, and yes preserve their heritage. Now we have a group that has by their own words stated they don't want to merge....they want to establish their own new socialist state. And don't worry about us because they now have the numbers to do what they please.

Oh yes, and they work really hard dirty jobs I worked when younger...only I paid taxes.....give me a break!

And yes, they probably went home after the march and burned the American flags they had to carry. Must have been hard on them!

Biker
April 10, 2006, 02:18 PM
Me? I'm waiting. The protesters were instructed to put away the Buzzard Flag and to carry Old Glory. Chicanery rears its ugly head.
I'm waiting.
Hear that whistling sound? That's the teapot on the stove...
Biker

MadMag
April 10, 2006, 02:31 PM
Me too Biker. I am going out to Knob Creek this week and shoot every:cuss: gun I have.....just to let off a little steam. Who says shooting is not good therapy:evil:

seeker_two
April 10, 2006, 02:53 PM
wow, you really have big letters.

Is that font envy I hear?... ;)

Me too Biker. I am going out to Knob Creek this week and shoot every :cuss: gun I have.....just to let off a little steam. Who says shooting is not good therapy :evil:

Did that this weekend. Even got a rifle sighted in that I've neglected for awhile. I had fun, but it didn't calm me down much. Besides, this kind of practice may come in handy sooner than we ALL think... :uhoh:

Clean97GTI
April 10, 2006, 03:00 PM
and maybe someone else found it funny that the illegals told the white immigrants to leave and claimed to be natives to this continent instead of coming from Europe.

I wonder if they know why they speak spanish and where that particular language came from.

MadMag
April 10, 2006, 04:24 PM
Is that font envy I hear?...
Yep, at my age anything I can read without glasses is impressive.:what:

MadMag
April 10, 2006, 04:46 PM
This is from Minuteman site.

Communist groups call for boycott in support of illegal aliens

Communist-led coalition is supporting a pro-illegal alien boycott of work, school and shopping on May 1st. Make sure to save up any big shopping you've got planned in the future for May 1st!

Strange how this "coalition" names themselves after the far left, pro-terrorist, hate-America-blame-America-first organization that exists in America today: ANSWER

Or is it a coincidence? Note the communist/socialist/pro-terrorist organizations leading this coalition: ANSWER's steering committee includes the Free Palestine Alliance, the Partnership for Civil Justice, the Nicaragua Network, the Korea Truth Commission, the Muslim Student Association, the Mexico Solidarity Network and the Party for Socialism and Liberation.

Also please note the pro-Communist movement's "May Day" celebrations are held on May 1st in recognition of the Soviet Union's struggle for the communist laborer.

Clean97GTI
April 10, 2006, 04:51 PM
CAnnoneer, as long as it isn't Democrat or Republican, you're doing fine.

Sadly, I don't think we'll see the two major parties killing themselves off anytime soon. We've had the Republicans in power for quite a while now and the tide is shifting back to Democrat rule. The Republicans will clean a little house, pretend to side more with the people and return to the time honored principle of cheating and lying for votes.

They aren't interested in doing the bidding of the people. They are interested in getting reelected.

Term limits and the abolition of the 17th amendment would really be nice.

longeyes
April 10, 2006, 05:10 PM
Communist groups call for boycott in support of illegal aliens

Communist-led coalition is supporting a pro-illegal alien boycott of work, school and shopping on May 1st. Make sure to save up any big shopping you've got planned in the future for May 1st!

Strange how this "coalition" names themselves after the far left, pro-terrorist, hate-America-blame-America-first organization that exists in America today: ANSWER

Or is it a coincidence? Note the communist/socialist/pro-terrorist organizations leading this coalition: ANSWER's steering committee includes the Free Palestine Alliance, the Partnership for Civil Justice, the Nicaragua Network, the Korea Truth Commission, the Muslim Student Association, the Mexico Solidarity Network and the Party for Socialism and Liberation.

Also please note the pro-Communist movement's "May Day" celebrations are held on May 1st in recognition of the Soviet Union's struggle for the communist laborer.

Yes, exactly; see my remarks previously. The agenda here is not just to work and become good Americans, though if it were there would still be many compelling questions about fiscal responsibility, ecology, et al. No, this is about sovereignty, law, and the shape of our political future. What underlies these protests is the leftwing "labor" axiom that working here gives them the right to be here. NO, IT DOESN'T.

We should reject the pressure of this "movement" if only to make the point that WE are in control of our nation and our government. And we should do whatever is necessary to effect that. To do anything else will be to send a signal of weakness and appeasement that will come back to bite us hard. You cannot have squatters and trespassers defying your will and telling us "We are here to stay!" That is not civil rights, it is outright effrontery.

Desertdog
April 10, 2006, 05:28 PM
With no protest going on here, my support for the USA is shown by flying the American flag.

If you are old enough to remember waaaay back, a communist ruler (wish I could remember which one) promised to take us over without firing a shot.

The way it is going, he may be right.

xd9fan
April 10, 2006, 06:17 PM
thinkin it was the hot head Nikita Khrushchev.

bg
April 10, 2006, 07:02 PM
Seems the illegals don't care for it when protests go against
them..Caution, tempers may flare..
http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/protester-is-attacked-by-illegal-aliens/

One of the organizers, Portland attorney Rafael Galvez, says people will remember how members of Congress vote. He says lawmakers have before them an opportunity to be either "compassionate or cruel."

As you do your taxes this week, ask yourself whether giving illegal aliens all the benefits of citizenship with none of its burdens is "compassionate or cruel."

TX35
April 10, 2006, 07:07 PM
Way to go Democrats!!!

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/TX35/dallasdemflyer.jpg

Sindawe
April 10, 2006, 07:15 PM
Seems the illegals don't care for it when protests against
them..Caution, tempers may flare.. I've read of similar attacks against counter-protesters on SaveOurState.org and ALIPAC.US. :fire: :fire: :fire:

MadMag
April 10, 2006, 07:18 PM
This sums it up pretty well in Dallas

Yes, welcome to the United States Of Mexico.

Anyway, we might as well just give up. I just watched Lou Dobbs and the leader of Mexican USA protest said that on the May 1st boycott they will not just boycott..he said they are going to shut down this country. He said (I can't make this stuff up) that it will be so bad that the next day we will want to welcome back the immigrant workers with flowers and candy...since we will have all learned that we cannot live without their support. They are the "backbone" of the USA...don't you know.

Now I know what I can buy on May 1st....flowers and candy! If I can't find an illegal to give it to I can always give it to my wife....that should make my life less miserable than normal for a few days.

Clean97GTI
April 10, 2006, 07:18 PM
Despite all the controversy on this, I'm glad to see that others are still sensible.

To me, an illegal immigrant's rights are as follows.
3 hots and a cot and a bus ticket home...same as any other criminal.

A legal immigrant should be welcomed with open arms.

longeyes
April 10, 2006, 07:23 PM
One of the organizers, Portland attorney Rafael Galvez, says people will remember how members of Congress vote. He says lawmakers have before them an opportunity to be either "compassionate or cruel."

As you do your taxes this week, ask yourself whether giving illegal aliens all the benefits of citizenship with none of its burdens is "compassionate or cruel."

This goes along with the rest of the modern neurosis: Stand up for your own identity and you are "cruel." Okay, I choose cruelty. Put that down on the record.

I think the slogan of "Christian compassion" has been co-opted by all those who hate the free-thinking, free-living basis of America's roots. If we'd wanted to stay in feudal Catholic Europe we would have.

longeyes
April 10, 2006, 07:29 PM
Anyway, we might as well just give up. I just watched Lou Dobbs and the leader of Mexican USA protest said that on the May 1st boycott they will not just boycott..he said they are going to shut down this country.

Yes, they love America and Americans so much they are going to shut it down to show us who's boss?

Hey, maybe we need to shut down Mexico? Some future, better American political leader may do just that.

I've just listened to a speaker opine that America creates the poverty abroad that forces illegal aliens to come here to work. Right. Imagine the world, and its history, without the United States of America.

I think we'd all better realize this is not a "labor" problem we have here, this is a survival problem.

MadMag
April 10, 2006, 07:50 PM
I think we'd all better realize this is not a "labor" problem we have here, this is a survival problem. Well said!


promised to take us over without firing a shot.

Yeah, I would like to invite them out to Knob Creek and they can set targets while the line is hot!:D

Desertdog
April 10, 2006, 07:53 PM
I wish the authorties would surround the protesters with toops, and make then Identifie themselves and prove they are nor here illegally. Those that can't prove they are legally here, deport them with no more questions asked.

Maybe we should start calling Washingto DC and let the powers there know that illegals are not allowed to vote but American, naturlized or born here, can.

MadMag
April 10, 2006, 08:19 PM
Maybe we should start calling Washingto DC and let the powers there know that illegals are not allowed to vote but American, naturlized or born here, can.

I just used the NumbersUSA web site to send a fax, but I really don't think their form fax is tough enough, and now I am going to work to send one with my own wording. Mainly as you said plus secure the borders or all else is lost.

crazed_ss
April 10, 2006, 08:29 PM
I wish the authorties would surround the protesters with toops, and make then Identifie themselves and prove they are nor here illegally. Those that can't prove they are legally here, deport them with no more questions asked

:rolleyes:

Maybe the Govt' should go in your house, sieze all your guns and make you prove they're all legal. If you cant provide proper papers for your weapons, then the gov't gets to keep them. How would you like that?

....

This is America, not communist China. We're have the right to march and protest without being intimated by military troops.

MadMag
April 10, 2006, 08:36 PM
Maybe the Govt' should go in your house, sieze all your guns and make you prove they're all legal. If you cant provide proper papers for your weapons, then the gov't gets to keep them. How would you like that?

No problem, I am OK with that. Just as long as part of the proof is that I am an American Citizen...if not then they can have my guns and deport me. Since I am from Kentucky deportation means I have to go to Indiana.

hvengel
April 10, 2006, 08:51 PM
I know a number of folks that were going to vote against prop 187. Then they saw some of the protests by those that were against 187. The protesters were waving Mexican flags and such just the the protesters we are seeing now. Guess what - those protest cahnged the minds of many taht were going to vote against prop 187. I think the same thing is going to happen this time around.

MadMag
April 10, 2006, 08:53 PM
This is America, not communist China.

Wait a minute, I think communist China is where they have that May Day parade....held on May 1st I believe. Course no connection to USA.

politicalpolls.us
April 10, 2006, 08:54 PM
I live in Oklahoma. I've hired illegal aliens for about 10 odd jobs in the past 2 years! These are jobs that I couldn't get a US Citizen to do for $100/hr.

Biker
April 10, 2006, 08:59 PM
If you're paying $100 an hour, PM me. I ain't hardly BSing.
Biker

longeyes
April 10, 2006, 09:03 PM
I live in Oklahoma. I've hired illegal aliens for about 10 odd jobs in the past 2 years! These are jobs that I couldn't get a US Citizen to do for $100/hr.

Well, I guess that settles it: Let's stamp "Okay" on the 20 million (don't buy the b.s.; do the math) here already and just smile at the 50 or 60 million they get to bring in with them.

Those odd jobs could prove a mite expensive, but I'm concerned about the long-term expense to all of us and to America as nation.

Zedicus
April 10, 2006, 09:09 PM
politicalpolls.us: I live in Oklahoma. I've hired illegal aliens for about 10 odd jobs in the past 2 years! These are jobs that I couldn't get a US Citizen to do for $100/hr.

BS, I'd even do them for $50 an hr....

PS: your post makes me ill to think that you are personaly adding to the problem.:fire:

Beachmaster
April 10, 2006, 09:16 PM
I live in Oklahoma. I've hired illegal aliens for about 10 odd jobs in the past 2 years! These are jobs that I couldn't get a US Citizen to do for $100/hr.

I hope you get arrested and have an unpleasant time in prison for breaking the laws of our land!

I have a hard time believing you would actually pay a citizen $100 per hour to work for you, and an even harder time believing people in Oklahoma would turn down $100 an hour for a job unless you expect them to do something unsafe or illegal. Well, maybe that would explain why you hire undocumented workers who can't complain about the working conditions. I'll bet you didn't pay them the $100 per hour you "tried" to give to Americans.

MadMag
April 10, 2006, 09:52 PM
I live in Oklahoma. I've hired illegal aliens for about 10 odd jobs in the past 2 years! These are jobs that I couldn't get a US Citizen to do for $100/hr.

No matter that they cost tax payers many times over for the free medical and schooling cost. And please don't tell me you filed taxes using fake ID's. I paid an extra million last year and used a fake ID just to help our govenment. But can't show the papers.

I bid $25/hr what the hay $6/hr. I am not doing anything. I am retired and I have done all the dirty jobs I have seen listed that illegals work and I paid taxes. Septic tanks, ditches, cleaning barns, car wash, factory work, Ist sgt. that made me dig more ditches, etc.

BTW. True. I have a son that will take you up...he is working a hard labor factory job for $9/hr.

garyk/nm
April 10, 2006, 10:14 PM
I have nothing against a guest worker program, with certain stipulations:
1. A guest worker is an individual, not one worker and 15 of his/her closest relatives.
2. Guest means guest. Here for a period of time and then go home.
3. Worker. No job? Adios. This one is key, because even if there is a program, illegals will still be coming in for the same reasons they always have.
4. No public assistance of any kind. Period.
5. Anchor babies are a thing of the past.
6. No path to citizenship.
7. All illegals get declared felons. No way they will ever get to vote. (that one ought to go over well, don't you think?)
8. If they're going to drive, then all insurance laws apply. Get caught driving without insurance and adios.
9. Any crime committed while on guest status results in permanent removal from the US.

I'm sure I'll think of more, but that's a start.

longeyes
April 10, 2006, 10:27 PM
Not bad. But we need to stop the flow cold (= double fence).

I think this will go from a "labor" problem to an angry squabble over political philosophy in short order. The International Left is intimately involved with the immies; likewise the liberation theology zealots from the Catholic Church. This conflict is going to have legs.

Desertdog
April 10, 2006, 10:31 PM
We must remember, and the illegals must be reminded: there is 10M of you, there is over 250M of us.

As far as voting goes; if all 10M of them voted they would still be outvoted 8 to 1 or more.

Vitamin G
April 10, 2006, 10:32 PM
Can we please just either :
1) Annex them & tax them (and stop welfare\unemployment\medicare)
2) Hire a bunch of illegals to build a cheap wall

I love irony, so i'm a big fan of #2.

Desertdog
April 10, 2006, 11:16 PM
Naturalized citizen says illegal immigrants shouldn't get free pass to citizenship
http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=4744227

Thousands of people are expected to show up at Tucson's Armory Park for Monday’s immigration rally, but not everyone is supporting their cause.

“No other population that has tried to immigrate into the United States has ever been allowed to get away with doing it this way,” Brigitta Carney, a naturalized U.S. citizen, says.

Her family came to America from Germany.

She has no problem with people coming here legally, but says illegal immigrants shouldn’t get a free pass to citizenship.

Carney says, “You come here, you learn to speak English, you become an American citizen, you take the oath of allegiance -- in English please.”

Others have a more extreme view.

“They have no right to protest. They have no right at all. They have the right to be deported,” says Laine Lawless with Tucson-based Border Guardians.

The group plans to burn Mexican flags over the weekend.

“We’ve had a lot of Mexican government meddling in to our government’s affairs, and it’s time for us to say stop. This is enough, we’re not going to take it anymore.”

Activist Russ Dove agrees, saying, “They are telling me to sit down, open your wallet, feed me, water me, let me breathe openly, and continue to take care of me. Put me in the front [of the] line.”

Dove thinks the existing immigration laws are good enough.

“Let us enforce the laws we have. The immigration system is not broken, it’s simply not enforced,” Dove says.

As Monday’s immigration march and rally draws near, the opposition gets more heated.

Brigitta Carney says, “You don’t march for a citizen’s right, wrapped in the flag of another country.”

MadMag
April 10, 2006, 11:20 PM
1) Annex them & tax them (and stop welfare\unemployment\medicare)
2) Hire a bunch of illegals to build a cheap wall

I vote for #2, but could we please have them on the Mexico side when they put in the last stone!

longeyes
April 10, 2006, 11:40 PM
Assault underscores tension as Congress weighs immigration reform

April 10, 2006

PORTLAND, Maine --Dozens of people pressing for rights for illegal immigrants gathered for a peaceful demonstration on Monday just minutes after a counter-protestor was bloodied by a teenager who hid his face with a bandanna.

The attacker, described as a Hispanic teenager, went after one of three white people carrying signs arguing that illegals have no rights, police said.

As the teen fled, the victim dropped to the pavement after being hit with something heavy that the teen had carried, possibly in a sock or a bandanna, said Portland Police Sgt. Robin Gauvin. There were no arrests as of late afternoon.

The victim, identified as Robert Gorman, 23, of Portland, was hauled away in an ambulance minutes before 200 people gathered. He was treated and released from Maine Medical Center.

"When you promote violence, you get violence," said the Rev. Virginia Maria Rincon, one of the organizers. "Our rally is about promoting a peaceful dialogue."

About 200 people gathered at Monument Square to voice support for reforms that would legalize undocumented immigrants. The rally was one of many across the country on Sunday and Monday calling for Congress to promote immigrants' rights.

One of the organizers, Portland attorney Rafael Galvez, said people won't forget how members of Congress vote. "They will be remembered for how they vote on this sensitive issue. They can be compassionate, or cruel," Galvez said.

The demonstrators of all colors carried signs and chanted. "This is our America. "This is what America looks like," Shenna Bellows, executive director of the Maine Civil Liberties Union, said through a bullhorn to the cheering crowd.

Not everyone agreed with the majority view. Jonathan Talbot of Portland said he supported the views of the man who was assaulted.

"I think we should enforce the laws we have. Then we go from there to decide what we want to do to assimilate these people into society," Talbot said. He described the Border Patrol's efforts as a "catch-and-release" program.

Art Eatman
April 10, 2006, 11:59 PM
Okay, the Senate's voted and gone.

The post above, while pertinent to the overall problem of high emotions and violence, etc., is way off-thread.

I suggest that folks gather their thoughts and perhaps begin a thread about suggestions for Senate actions.

But, PUHLEEZE keep the ideas within some vague yelling distance of reality!!!

:), Art

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