Cheaper Than Dirt won't ship legal "assault weapon gear" to CA


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Creeping Incrementalism
April 7, 2006, 01:49 AM
I was browsing Cheaper than Dirt and looked at the items they would not ship to California. These items are legal to import, in-and-of themselves, except for the >10 fixed mag. They are legal to mount on registered assault weapons, off-list semi-autos that don't meet the assault weapon features test, or to only attach while out-of-state, and on all rimfires or non-autoloaders. Something like 30,000 off-list AR lowers have been imported to the state lately, and since they will have a 10-round fixed mag, they don't meet the features test, and people can mount all this. CTD says its policy is The following products cannot be SHIPPED to ADDRESSES in the states, counties or cities indicated. Many products are legal to own, but some state laws make it illegal to buy them via the internet or mail order. But that's just not the case here. California has state preemption of firearms laws, so local restrictions aren't an issue (though we are still waiting on the SF ban, the enforcement of which keeps getting pushed back in the meantime).

I emailed CTD about this, but got no response. I won't be doing business with them any longer, and I hope others avoid them as well. I've also compared prices, and noticed they are almost always a little bit more expensive than MidwayUSA.

A partial list of items they won't ship here is:

Assault weapon gear:
California

Rifles:
Folding stocks
Thumbhole stocks
Telescoping stocks
Protruding pistol grip
Flash supressor
Forward pistol grip

Pistols:
Second handgrip
Shroud (except for a slide)
Detachable mag outside the pistol grip
Threaded barrel that accommodates a flash suppressor, forward handgrip or silencer
Fixed high-cap mag

Shotguns:
Folding stocks
Thumbhole stocks
Telescoping stocks
Protruding pistol grip
Detachable mag
Revolving cylinder


This is from http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/restrict.asp.

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c_yeager
April 7, 2006, 02:15 AM
Are you upset that CTD wont ship firearms accessories to a city that has outlawed firearms?

Sergeant Bob
April 7, 2006, 02:23 AM
Can't say as I blame them. Better safe than sorry.

Kamicosmos
April 7, 2006, 02:25 AM
Don't be upset with the company. Be upset at California.

gunsmith
April 7, 2006, 04:31 AM
have to watch their six, when I moved out of SF I sent the republican party my card (with the picture of Arnie on it) back telling they lost my support with the new fifty ban.

Move to Reno & when you miss the smell of stale urine you can visit SF.

Hawk
April 7, 2006, 07:51 AM
CALDOJ Gone Wild (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=31453)

My condolences, but no way would I hold any retailer responsible for CA's out of control lawmakers.

molonlabe
April 7, 2006, 07:53 AM
Move to Reno & when you miss the smell of stale urine you can visit SF.


Funny, sounds like Baltimore, where every corner is a toilet.

22-rimfire
April 7, 2006, 07:54 AM
No adding much, but I don't blame Cheaper Than DIrt in the least. I wouldn't either. Move or ship to a friend.

Spot77
April 7, 2006, 08:12 AM
In the past few months, Sportsmans' Guide decided that they wouldn't ship ammo to Annapolis because, "You are too close to Wahington DC."

Because I'm too close to DC? :confused: I'm 40 miles away.....and they used to ship ammo to me gleefully whaen I had a Baltimore address.


So I obviously don't buy ANYTHING from them now.

Creeping Incrementalism
April 7, 2006, 10:56 AM
I don't live in San Francisco.

I can blame Cheaper Than Dirt, because they are going beyond the law to further restict the RKBA of Californians, and they should be on our side. Everyone else I've tried (I know enough to avoid Sportsman's Guide) will ship this stuff to California. And the assault weapon law is not complicated regarding these products. If they know what to list, then they have already read the part where it says these products are only illegal when attached to a centerfire, detachable-mag, auto-loader that isn't registered as an AW. This is not complicated!

LAR-15
April 7, 2006, 11:10 AM
Sorry but in todays society its a good idea to CYA

Guns_and_Labs
April 7, 2006, 11:36 AM
The following products cannot be SHIPPED to ADDRESSES in the states, counties or cities indicated. Many products are legal to own, but some state laws make it illegal to buy them via the internet or mail order.

There are several local jurisdictions in the Bay Area that have laws against mail order purchases of some types of items. I wouldn't expect CTD to figure out whether your zip code is Berkeley versus El Cerrito, or San Francisco versus Brisbane.

Furthermore, I can just see CA DOJ arguing that CTD is encouraging or facilitating people constructing illegal weapons. Why incur the legal expense, from CTD's perspective?

I've also compared prices, and noticed they are almost always a little bit more expensive than MidwayUSA.


That's a better reason to avoid CTD.

El Barto
April 7, 2006, 11:55 AM
I live just outside of LA so I can feel your pain about not getting items that are in fact, legal. That being said, I believe that most companies would rather be overly cautious when it comes to shipping. I can understand that they wouldn't want to risk their business to send me a $20 item.

This is especially true in regards to ammo. There are some companies that will not ship to Los Angeles, but have no problem shipping to me in Bell, which is about 2 miles from the city limits of Los Angeles. I guess that since the address label doesn't say "Los Angeles", ammo is kept out of the hands of those bad guys.

Creeping Incrementalism
April 7, 2006, 12:04 PM
There are several local jurisdictions in the Bay Area that have laws against mail order purchases of some types of items. I wouldn't expect CTD to figure out whether your zip code is Berkeley versus El Cerrito, or San Francisco versus Brisbane.

There are laws all over the nation like that, but only in California does CTD cast such a wide net. And I would expect CTD to just add a city address to their restricted list if it comes up, which it probably won't ever. Expanding and fragmenting ammo has been illegal a long time in San Francisco, but CTD never had ammo sale restrictions to S.F. This really isn't a case of CTD covering thier butt, its a case of them being too lazy to read the law for themselves, and being extra "hard" on CA. Anyway, state firearms law pre-empts all local laws--this has been upheld many times--so they are all null and void anyway. And they wouldn't even notice to begin with.

Furthermore, I can just see CA DOJ arguing that CTD is encouraging or facilitating people constructing illegal weapons. Why incur the legal expense, from CTD's perspective? There is no way you could convict on "encouraging" (whatever that means, please find that term in the legal code) people to construct illegal weapons by selling them legal accessories that are legal to mount on many firearms. The only thing the DOJ here has been extra-legal about is receivers, and CTD doesn't sell receivers.

The antis in CA don't have to pass laws ending our RKBA if the gun industry is too cowardly to sell us anything when there is basically 0 chance of them being busted for anything.

cropcirclewalker
April 7, 2006, 12:33 PM
Move the heck outa California.

Ohen Cepel
April 7, 2006, 12:46 PM
It's sad, but I can't blame those businesses. If you don't think that some pinko lawyer wouldn't sue them into the ground then.......

Jay Kominek
April 7, 2006, 01:14 PM
I can blame Cheaper Than Dirt, because they are going beyond the law to further restict the RKBA of Californians... Some place not selling you a folding stock doesn't restrict your RKBA any more than a publisher not printing your book restricts your freedom of speech.
Perhaps you're trying to restrict Cheaper Than Dirt's freedom of association! :neener:

gunsmith
April 7, 2006, 06:26 PM
is now I know abour MidwayUSA....I've never heard of them before!:neener:

LoadAmmo
April 7, 2006, 06:28 PM
Why would somebody live in California?

Nevada and Arizona are just a few hours drive away! :neener:

The_Antibubba
April 8, 2006, 12:37 AM
At least I can still order ammo from them; SG refuses to ship to Sacramento-for no reason I can discern.

joab
April 8, 2006, 12:50 AM
There is no way you could convict on "encouraging" (whatever that means, please find that term in the legal code)How about "Enticing" then.

too many expensive frivolous lawsuits to take a chance. Even if they win the case they lose the money.

Californians have decided their fate by electing the people they have put in charge.

Beachmaster
April 8, 2006, 04:37 AM
Stop being mad at CTD, and start either packing, or booting out the bad politicians who are turning CA and parts of our great country into a joke!

Remember, the Second Ammendment is not about hunting! Its about allowing the citizens to be armed so they can keep the gov in check! By limiting or taking away your right to own a weapon, the gov is taking the POWER of Government FROM THE PEOPLE and placing ito the hands of a privledged few.


When it comes to California, we need more companies like Barrett. Their policy is that they will not sell or repair guns to California state agencies or police departments because the state bans the citizens from owning them. They have even introduced a new California legal big bore in 416, but will not sell that to the state either.

All weapon manufacturers should do the same, and soon no LE in California will be able to buy guns wholesale, get them repaired at the factory, or get factory training. Then, if gunshops posted signs stating "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, and we excercise that right to refuse to sell weapons or ammunition to state employees" posted on their doors, you would see changes made quick!

Regular citizens should boycott those areas that are anti gun (like California in general, or San Fransisco in particular). I am proud to have steered a convention worth a few hundred thousand bucks away from SF, and will do so again if I can, until they elect some people with brains there.

Americans have the ability to vote two ways. We get to vote every so often and elect people into positions of power. We also get to vote more often with our wallets! Stop spending money in CA, and other anti gun places.



"NO Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms"
Thomas Jefferson

ArmedBear
April 8, 2006, 10:38 AM
First thing: don't buy a thing from CtD or SG. They have nothing you need that can't be bought from other places, often for less money.

748
April 8, 2006, 12:43 PM
:barf:
Time to move to another state.

bigun15
April 8, 2006, 12:50 PM
Why would somebody live in California?

Can't get out.

Sgt Stevo
April 8, 2006, 03:05 PM
Money is the answer to the, "Why live in the prk ? Threads.

But I am wishing more and more everyday that I lived in Stateline, or reno .

in Just a couple more years. I will sell my properties and escape. I dont want my little girl to end up at Berkly, reading the Koran in Spanish.


I had a nightmare about that. I always thought, if we tried hard enough, we could reverse some of this madness.

I am not saying all is lost. But it is close. I buy ammo from CTD once amonth. I might re-think this and go to Double tap.

Nicky Santoro
April 8, 2006, 03:43 PM
Cheaper Than Dirt won't ship legal "assault weapon gear" to CA

Lots of a**holes out there, CTD, Bloss, Century. They all obey laws that don't exist. Lots of other places to spend your money.

Hawk
April 8, 2006, 05:56 PM
I try to send money when Californians are tilting at windmills - like the .50BMG ban. My thanks to all who stay and fight to reclaim the state.

That said(c), I was just digging through my copy of the BATFE provided "State Laws and Published Ordinances - Firearms" 26th edition. Something that even us 03 FFLs get.

You may be familiar with it: 458 pages. Kinda small font size, arranged in 3 columns.

Pages 1 through 16 include Alabama, Alaska, American Samoa, Arizona and Arkansas.

California starts on page 16 and concludes on page 84. This includes codes for Anaheim, Bakersfield, Fremont, Fresno, Glendale, Huntington Beach, Long Beach, Los Angeles (county), Los Angeles (municipal), Oakland, Riverside, Sacremento, San Diego (county), San Diego (municipal), San Francisco, San Jose, Santa Ana and Stockton.

By itself, San Francisco takes up 6 pages: 50% more than the entire state of Texas.

Don't take it personally, guys. But I can see where people without full time legal departments would be circumspect about shipping into that legislative sinkhole. Feel free not to buy from those nervous about shipping to CA. No hard feelings here.

In fact, were I to find myself in CA, my inclination would be to support any reasonable local business that could survive in that atmosphere.

LoadAmmo
April 8, 2006, 06:06 PM
My best wishes to you Californians... I was fortunate to get out right after high school.

I remember how cool it was walking into the local Nevada gun shop and walking out with a Romanian AK47, 500rds of ammo and a 30rd mag. Wow! Drove directly out to the desert and had the funnest time of my life.

It's nearly been a decade since I left California and every time I visit family in Southern California it seems to resemble Mexico more and more.

I feel sorry for Californian's, but then again it's happening in Southern Nevada and Arizona as well.

Librarian
April 8, 2006, 10:00 PM
First thing: don't buy a thing from CtD or SG. They have nothing you need that can't be bought from other places, often for less money.

We've done this before; retail businesses have a duty to their investors, and choose what they will sell and to whom they will sell based on criteria that are satisfactory to themselves. How can we argue with that? We expect no outside interference with our choices, right?

On the other hand, customers who think the policies are idiotic, inappropriate, or just inconvenient have the right to choose whether to give money to those businesses. "Right" will be established by whether those businesses survive and prosper.

Do your part to be sure CtD and SG do not thrive. Write them and tell them that is what you are doing. Send them copies of sales receipts for products they sell in other places than where you live, that you were able to get from merchants with more acceptable policies.

If enough business goes to competitors, and the 'bad' businesses know about it, the 'bad' businesses will be unable to meet their corporate goals.

If they cannot meet corporate goals, they will either change their goals, change their business policies to recover lost business, or go out of business.

cropcirclewalker
April 8, 2006, 11:25 PM
If I was mail order selling stuff (gun stuff), I would not sell to anybody in CA, IL, WI, or Ny just on principle.

I especially think CA sucks.

Hey, If I go out of business, I will be where I am now.

That does not ameleriate the fact that CA sucks.

Guns_and_Labs
April 9, 2006, 12:43 PM
Expanding and fragmenting ammo has been illegal a long time in San Francisco, but CTD never had ammo sale restrictions to S.F.

It may have changed, but at one time the "ammo" CTD was a legally and managerially separate company, but marketed and sold through the CTD channel. It would explain the different policies.

But to back up, trying to make my way through CA Penal Code 12020, etc., I can see why they would believe it illegal -- or at least risky -- to ship most of those into California:

Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to
convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C),
inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in
subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if
those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same
person.

This type of language, "designed and intended to convert", shows up in several areas, particularly around the "forbidden features" and shotguns. I can see why their attorney might advise them to stay away from shipping those items into the state. Note, please, that they don't need to be convicted, just involved in a legal dispute, for it to be a bad business decision.

So, they have a belief that the law does not allow them to ship these items into California. A conservative interpretation, perhaps. And they explicitly invite you to take it up with the lawmakers on their website. I can't fault them for it, myself.

That said, I find Midway and Brownells better, cheaper and faster.

Guns_and_Labs
April 9, 2006, 12:47 PM
I especially think CA sucks.

Hey, If I go out of business, I will be where I am now.

That does not ameleriate the fact that CA sucks.

To each his own. I don't like the weather in the Ozarks, myself. I guess we're both where we ought to be. :)

Creeping Incrementalism
June 17, 2006, 07:39 AM
Let me expand your quotation:

E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.
(2) As used in this section, a "short-barreled rifle" means any of the following:
(A) A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(B) A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(C) Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.

I'm not talking about short barrels, which CTD doesn't even sell, I'm talking about things like vertical foregrips, collapsing stocks, etc., which are legal on non-SB23 rifles.

TeachMe
June 17, 2006, 07:47 AM
No need to complain, private business can do as they please. Let your money do your talking.

Double Naught Spy
June 17, 2006, 10:04 AM
So CI, are you in need of any of these items CTD won't ship to CA, or are you just complaining to make a point? Until you want to buy something they won't sell you, then you have no complaint. Even if you do want to buy something they won't sell you, you still may not have a valid complaint.

I can blame Cheaper Than Dirt, because they are going beyond the law to further restict the RKBA of Californians

Get over the whole martyr thing. This is not a valid complaint. CTD is NOT restricting your right to keep and bear arms. I don't even know how you can suggest such a thing. What arms are they restricting you from keeping and bearing? NONE

You are talking about parts, not arms. They simply aren't selling accessories to arms you can have or can't have.

CTD is very pro gun. They even teach gun classes on site in Ft. Worth. You would best spend your time fighting for your rights in California than fighting a fellow pro gun organization who has had to back out of making sales to CA on some items out of fear of legal consequences. You will have to trust me on this, but CTD is a FOR PROFIT company and they would much rather be able to sell anything in their inventory to CA than to restrict sales on the advice of their lawyer, resulting in lost sales, lost profits, and more expenses by having to pay the lawyer.

antsi
June 17, 2006, 03:43 PM
-----quote---------
Lots of a**holes out there, CTD, Bloss, Century. They all obey laws that don't exist. Lots of other places to spend your money.
--------------------

This is too harsh a judgement on the businesses. Look at it from their point of view: California has lots of crazy laws, and they're passing new ones all the time. If I am a business owner, and I have to hire a huge staff of lawyers to figure out what's legal in California this week, and I run the risk of facing expensive legal action if I send something "banned" to California, then I stand to lose money every time I do business in California.

How much profit do you think they make on your AR foregrip? Not enough to compensate for even one legal tangle with the state of CA, or even enough to spend the time and effort trying to figure out if the darned thing is legal in CA this week.

The anti gun politicians in California know that this is happening, and it's part of their plan. They want to make it prohibitively expensive/difficult for gun/accessory dealers to do business in California, and it's working.

The vendors are not perpetrators of this wickedness; they're as much victims of it as CA residents are. Don't blame the victim, blame the perps - your own politicians. Have you been working to get these clowns unelected?

Jordan
June 18, 2006, 05:09 PM
One of their people (on THR as "mchgnmike") occasionally canvases THR for new hire employees.

I wrote him about a recent experience with CTD and never did hear back from him... I guess they're doing pretty well without responding to customer grievances--

My email:

Hello Mike-- I'm a High Road member and a frustrated (ex)CTD customer.

I had let this issue go with a vow to not do business with CTD in the future. But when I saw you were a fellow THR member I thought I'd give CTD one more chance.

I received an order from CTD a few weeks ago, mailed to me in Alaska. The numbers went something like this (these are estimates as I no longer have the invoice in front of me... but they are accurate within a dollar or two):
Merchandise: ~$80
S+H: ~$38

I'm realistic about the price of living in Alaska... I know it costs a little more to live here and I feel it's worth every extra penny. But $38 dollars seemed high for a package smaller than a shoe box and so light that I could bobble it around on one hand like a beach ball. The UPS store was a handy stop so I took it in and asked them to quote me a price to send that package from my address to yours via Priority Mail (that's how it was sent to me). They measured it, weighed it, ran it through their system, and said it would be (a little less than) $21. If you're doing the math, that leaves ~$17 for "handling". About 25% the cost of the merchandise! About this time I'm thinking, "anyone can advertise prices that are "cheaper than dirt" if they only have to sneak in the back door and boost the price by 25% at the last minute! That's pretty crumby, man.

I wanted to give CTD a chance to explain themselves (a great favor to them, actually, as most customers wouldn't.. they'd just quit patronizing and grumble to their friends). As friendly as I was to the "customer service" lady... she didn't take my call as a great favor. We went around and AROUND with me questioning the $17 and her responding that "it costs more to ship to Alaska". Well, I happen to KNOW what it costs to ship to Alaska... it's about $21. I'm talking about the remaining $17!

"Well sir, it costs more to ship to Alaska" And around and around we go.

At one point I thought she was really dumb to not understand what I was saying.. then it occurred to me that she wasn't dumb. She was just playing dumb because she didn't know what else to say.

The extra $17(in my case) is nothing more than a PUNITIVE CHARGE for living outside the contiguous states. I can't figure how it's any harder or more time consuming for CTD's shippers to write "AK" on a shipping label than it is to write "CO", "MI", or "VT". Just fill out the label and charge actual shipping... it's as easy as that! Tack on a NOMINAL "handling" fee if you must... but I must say, it's a little dishonest to do that. Be up front and work that into your catalog prices. It's sneaky, and a little dishonest, to advertise a price, then tack on a percentage as it goes out the door. In my business, I quote a price for a job and that's it. I don't go to my customer later and say, "By the way, here's my bill for my gas to and from the job, the time I spent servicing my tools after hours, etc". I'm aware of these costs and I work it into my UP FRONT price. My price may not be "cheaper than dirt", but it's honest. My customers respect that.

I hope I've made my case clear.. it seems simple to me but after it so befuddled the customer service lady, I wonder if I may not be explaining myself well.
Unless CTD changes their policy of gouging Alaskans, I can not do further business with them. My friends will be warned as well.

Thanks for your time, Mike.
Josh

Never did get at response:(

Creeping Incrementalism
October 31, 2006, 11:16 PM
CTD is NOT restricting your right to keep and bear arms. I don't even know how you can suggest such a thing. What arms are they restricting you from keeping and bearing? NONE

You would best spend your time fighting for your rights in California than fighting a fellow pro gun organization who has had to back out of making sales to CA on some items out of fear of legal consequences. You will have to trust me on this, but CTD is a FOR PROFIT company and they would much rather be able to sell anything in their inventory to CA than to restrict sales on the advice of their lawyer, resulting in lost sales, lost profits, and more expenses by having to pay the lawyer.

I never read your response until just now when I stubled upon it during a search.

I'm not saying that CTD is restricting my rights the same as the State of California, but everytime a seller of firearms/firearms related stuff chickens out, it goes a little bit towards being the same thing. Like when S&W briefly cut that deal with the Clinton administration.

There are some guys that stand up, whom I respect a lot, some that hold off a little while because of direct gov't action, whose actions I sympathize with, and then there are the people that go completely out of their way to avoid something despite it being obviously legal to anyone who can read, and there being no gov't pressure regarding it whatsoever. They don't even need to hire a lawyer to know that the items I refer to are legal--just ask the DOJ, and they will tell you, for free. That is what irks me--it is either cowardice or ignorance on the part of CTD. Or maybe just plain laziness.

Sure CTD is there to make a profit. Everyone is. But others stand up while doing it, and those are the ones who get my money now. And for your information, I do spend most of my time fighting for my rights in California, I just felt like posting this back in June when I discovered what CTD wouldn't sell some items to Californians.

gezzer
November 1, 2006, 12:37 AM
CA laws and you still live there? No offense but I voted with my feet 20 years ago from MA. You stay by Your OWN CHOICE.

CA laws are so complex no wonder companies in the free world don't ship there the profit is not WORTH the loss that can occur when YOUR politicians complain to the AG. Blame your State not out of State companies.

Manedwolf
November 1, 2006, 02:04 AM
I can't find any reason to blame companies that refuse to ship to lawsuit-happy anti-2A states like MA and CA. They're just covering their aft section in legal terms. It can destroy a business to get hit with a state lawsuit, so they're cutting their losses.

Solution, if you want to order from that company, you need to live in a place with more freedoms.

Zen21Tao
November 1, 2006, 03:28 AM
I don't live in San Francisco.

I can blame Cheaper Than Dirt, because they are going beyond the law to further restict the RKBA of Californians, and they should be on our side. Everyone else I've tried (I know enough to avoid Sportsman's Guide) will ship this stuff to California. And the assault weapon law is not complicated regarding these products. If they know what to list, then they have already read the part where it says these products are only illegal when attached to a centerfire, detachable-mag, auto-loader that isn't registered as an AW. This is not complicated!

Take a few business classes (I don't this as an insult). There is something called "opertunity cost." When multiple people show interest in a finite supply of items some people have to lose out on purchasing those items.

The goal of business is to make the choices that best maximize profit. This profit maximization level is (where marginal revenue is equal to marginal cost) where the company is producing at the output level (number of units) that would yield maximum profit. Any additional output would only result is profit loss. This means company's have to pick and choose where to send their finite number of output. Naturally, a company is going to choose to supply to market segments that best serves them. And for gun companies, this is means serving gun friendly locations first.

CleverName
November 1, 2006, 05:07 AM
How many times have we been over the fact that "move to America or be brainwashed into a red pinko left wing gun grabber msm hollywierd tactikewl commie socialist fascist gang banger" is NOT productive?

It makes no sense to abandon the country's most populous state and a huge part of the national economy. California will set legislative and legal precedent on a national level if left to its devices. How about all you COWARDS stop cutting and running, and verbally sniping at us here fighting back?

And my post is as about as high road as the rest of you put together.

Tim James
November 1, 2006, 11:30 AM
I used to empathize with the people that stayed in California and wanted some help fighting the bad laws there, but I read an article recently on decentralized government (states rights) in America. The point was that the Founders intended to let states and counties have most of the control so that people could "vote with their feet" if they encountered laws they didn't agree with. It's like the invisible hand for politics.

I guess it's almost moot at this point since we have such a centralized government, but I think it is productive to talk about moving out of states you don't like. It gets people thinking about making choices, controling their own destiny, and also moving toward a system where most of the decisions occur on the state and local level. We can always use a healthy reminder about those things.

Zen21Tao
November 1, 2006, 04:03 PM
How many times have we been over the fact that "move to America or be brainwashed into a red pinko left wing gun grabber msm hollywierd tactikewl commie socialist fascist gang banger" is NOT productive?

It makes no sense to abandon the country's most populous state and a huge part of the national economy. California will set legislative and legal precedent on a national level if left to its devices. How about all you COWARDS stop cutting and running, and verbally sniping at us here fighting back?

And my post is as about as high road as the rest of you put together.

Wow, want some cheese to go with that wine? Here in Florida we donít have a White Castle hamburger establishmengt so I guess I should pound my fists and demand White Castle open establishments here to give us the little hamburgers we deserve. As I said before, when companies serve one market segment others have to do without. It is extremely niece to think a company can serve every market. So, the question is which segment to serve, one friendly to your product or one hostile to your product. As a business owner/manager would it be better to send products to markets that are (currently and most likely will remain) friendly to your product or would you rather serve a hostile market in which you product is barely legal by technicality and subject to change at any time? This isnít rocket science its capitalism. Itís not a private companies responsibility to sacrifice profits by championing a cause, even it is a cause we all deeply believe in.

Henry Bowman
November 1, 2006, 04:42 PM
I can believe it. Too risky to try to keep up with the anti-gun law de jure in California.

Who would believe that it would be a crime to sell a holster for a .380 in Los Angeles? Well...

LAPD's Crack Down On
Legitimate City Gun Dealers
Nets Harmless Leathersmith

Law Enforcement Priorities Misplaced

In an outlandish enforcement action, Detectives from the LAPD Gun Unit, working with a new City Attorney Task Force, recently performed a plain clothes undercover "sting" on a leather smith Omar Pineda's family business: Alfonso's of Hollywood Leather Company. Pineda, in business in North Hollywood for 43 years, makes custom holsters and other leather goods. In fact, he has been servicing LAPD officers for many years. But he does not sell guns, nor possess a firearm dealer's license - which isn't necessary for his leather business. Pineda's "crime?" He unwittingly sold two leather holsters for .380 ACP handguns to the undercover officers, not realizing that the recently enacted Municipal Code section that bans the sale of "ultracompact" handguns (under either 6 3/4" long or 4 3/4" tall) also bans the sale of holsters for these guns.

And when was this dangerous leather smith "criminal" detected? On September 11th no less! As the country, under the heightened alert declared by the federal government, held its breath that we wouldn't suffer another terrorist attack the LAPD was spending federal dollars to arrest a holster maker!

The sting was part of a new misguided effort to crack down on gun dealers in the city. Using federal "Project Safe Neighborhoods" dollars, the L.A. city Attorney's Office has formed a gun prosecutor "task force," and, working with the LAPD "Gun Unit," is performing regulatory "inspectors" on the roughly 200 FFLS in the City of LA. Dealers fear the effort is a pretext to put them out of business.

The federal money, some $360,000.00 per year for five years, is supposed to be used to fund special prosecutor positions to crack down on violent gun crime. Instead, large and small retailers, ranges, collectors, and ammo sellers have been "inspected" and cited by LAPD, mostly for violating relatively new and obscure city ordinances - of which the dealers were never made aware! Even the anti-gun California Attorney General at least notifies FFLs to advise them as the increasingly complex firearms laws change, but not LA. Misdemeanor criminal charges are pending in several cases.

CRPA's 70,000 plus members include law enforcement officers, prosecutors, professionals, firearm experts, the general public, and loving parents. CRPA recognizes that firearm ownership has tremendous social value. It causes dramatic reductions in, and serves as a tremendous deterrent to, crime and violence. No less than 16 separate studies confirm that firearms are used five times more often to thwart crime than to commit one. The FBI has confirmed that over 99% of firearms in the United States are never misused. CRPA instructors have been teaching safe and responsible firearms ownership to those who choose to own a gun for sport or self-defense for over 125 years, CRPA has a variety of effective crime prevention and gun safety programs available. These include informational brochures such as CRPA's Know Your California Gun Laws, safety guidelines, civilian gun safety and firearm education classes; the award-winning Eddie Eagle GunSafeprogram, which teaches kids to stay away from guns (www.eaglepak.org); Project HomeSafe (www.projecthomesafe.org), which distributes free gun safety locks; "Don't Lie for the Other Guy," which enlists firearm dealers to fight illegal gun purchases and "straw purchases" (www.nafr.org); "Refuse To Be A Victim," which teaches a variety of personal safety techniques (www.nrahq.org/safety/rtbav); Operation Ceasefire, a strategic crime fighting alliance between police and gun dealers; and a host of other programs. These efforts have proven successful across the nation, including many cities in California where they are currently used.

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Source: http://www.crpa.org/pressrls101802.html

CleverName
November 1, 2006, 06:11 PM
I don't want cheese or wine. I want some support from people who are supposed to be on my side.

This is how we lose, we destroy ourselves with in-fighting. There will be no cohesive front if we continue like this. "My state is better than your state", red state vs blue state, "snipers" (high power shooters) vs "those machine gun nuts" vs "50 cal terrorists" vs "no honest man should have a magazine over 10 rounds" vs "snotty shotgunners" vs hunters vs olympic shooters vs handgunners ends up with pointy sticks outlawed.

Frankly, this thread has made me incredibly disgusted with the lack of support. We do a far better job of tearing each other apart than the Brady center or VPC ever will. You want to convert an anti, well here's a state full of them. Get to work. I wasn't planning on buying from CTD, but I don't appreciate the "move, your state is suffocating under immigrant scum/gun grabbers/liberals/insert group of choice" sentiment I see on almost every single post. Guns aren't as important as my family, or my education. I'm not moving. Send lawyers, guns, and money, or even nothing. Don't you dare tell me to give up on my home.

gezzer
November 1, 2006, 06:29 PM
Your statement shows where your priorities lie. Get used to not having firearms and accesories mail ordered to you. You made the choice.

torpid
November 1, 2006, 06:33 PM
As a fellow Californian facing these issues, I have to say:

I do want some cheese, if he's passing on it- thanks.

(Hey, just lightening up the mood- as a Californian, I'm allowed.)

Hypnogator
November 1, 2006, 07:44 PM
I do want some cheese, if he's passing on it- thanks.

OK, you pour the wine -- I'll cut the cheese! :D :D :D

Yes, California sucks. It's a fact of life! :(

orionengnr
November 1, 2006, 07:59 PM
We do a lot of bitching about eBay and PayPal...for good reason.

But eBay is a CA based company, and that goes a long way towards explaining their policies.

I do not excuse them, and I no longer use them. But I have a bit more insight as to the "whys".

BTW, for a while, I lived in Northeastern Illinois, and while there were no ammo restrictions in my town, some would not ship to my county because I was "too close to Chicago". I reluctantly agreed...and moved to Texas. :)

I am no longer "too close to Chicago". God Bless Texas.

Zen21Tao
November 1, 2006, 10:42 PM
Cheers everyone. :D

http://www.lifeinitaly.com/wines/img/wine-cheese.jpg http://www.ansteys.com/pleasure/images/cheese_wine.jpg

Hoppy590
November 1, 2006, 10:45 PM
same with most stuff to MA

Creeping Incrementalism
November 1, 2006, 11:45 PM
or would you rather serve a hostile market in which you product is barely legal by technicality and subject to change at any time?

The products aren't barely legal, it is fully 100% legal to ship and possess in and of itself. It only becomes illegal when someone attaches the part(s) to certain kinds of rifles. CTD does not ship firearms, thus they can never be held liable for shipping "assault weapon gear" (except for >10 mags, which I'm not complaining about). The law is not subject to change at any time, bills only get passed and signed into law once a year, and the Cal-DOJ puts out a notice, and they will even go so far as to notify manufacturers outside the state.

There is something called "opertunity cost."

I know what opportunity cost is. 5 minutes asking the Cal-DOJ for opening up 10% more of the U.S. population to certain products isn't worth it? The opportunity cost is nil. They've already wasted more time than that by setting up the restrictions alone.

I can believe it. Too risky to try to keep up with the anti-gun law de jure in California.

Who would believe that it would be a crime to sell a holster for a .380 in Los Angeles? Well...

That law against selling that is blatantly illegal, as there is a pre-emption at the state level in California. That's why the recent SF ban (prop H) got tossed. Sometimes these illegal local ordinances do get through. I don't know how the holster case ended, but the company is still in business in L.A. County. However, there isn't a single case that I'm aware of an out-of-state company getting in legal trouble for what they shipped to California. If something is iffy, the DOJ lets out-of-state companies know before anyone gets sued/arrested.

Yes, the situation here is crappy, but I think it is overblown. If a company isn't sure, read the law or email the DOJ. It is actually not that hard to do. Some companies suffer from the same fearful/dismissive attitude as Henry Bowman, "oh, it is just too much to keep up with". It isn't!

I think it is productive to talk about moving out of states you don't like.... We can always use a healthy reminder about those things.

It isn't a "healthy reminder", it is a barrage "Move or change it" comes up every time in a thread about California. Companies and shooters adopt the condescending attitude of "oh, that's just California". That only helps the antis divide and conquer, which in the long run will hurt their profits.

Vote with your feet and your tax money, instead of impotently whining and complaining.

What, are you complaining that I'm complaining?

Master Blaster
November 2, 2006, 08:25 AM
About four years ago Midway was having a sale on some Aussie .308 surplus, so I tried to order some of it, having been ordering parts, bullets and reloading equipment form Midway for years. The web checkout menu advised me that they do not ship ammunition to Wilmington, Delaware????????

First I ever heard of mail order ammo being restricted to my state, with our NRA A rated Attorney General, and our NRA A rated Governor. So I called them and they said to me that

"They wouldn't ship to Wilmington Delaware, because Massachusetts restricts the sale of mail order ammunition,"

Moment of silence on my end So then I ask the Gent to repeat what he said:

"Midway USA will not ship restricted ammunition to Wilmington, Delaware because the Massachusetts AG does not allow mail order ammo."

OK, so I ask for the manager, who tells me that they have a list of restricted places prepared by their attorney, and thats what it says.

I then offered to send their attorney a MAP of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA :cuss: So he could see that Wilmington Delaware is 500 miles from Massachusetts, and in fact a seperate state, I also offered him the AG of the STATE OF DELAWARE's phone number so their LAWYER could check.

I then bought my Aussie surplus .308 from AIM Surplus who had no problem shipping it to Delaware. About a year later when I got over my anger at Midway, I decided to order some bullets from them, I also ordered some .22lr and some .223 ammo they had on sale just to see what would happen.

They were now shipping ammo to Wilmington DE again.

Zen21Tao
November 2, 2006, 09:46 AM
Don't get me wrong, I find it noble that people in Cali still want to put up a fight for their rights and I applaud that. However, I also respect the rights of business owners to conduct business as they see fit. Just because they have a product you want, that doesn't mean they should be forced to sell it to you, no matter how much good it does for our side. I see so much of the "by any means necessary" as longs as it helps gun rights mentality on THR but remember, they key is we want one of our RIGHTS respected by others. Infringing on the rights of others to accomplish this is nothing more than hypocritical.

Augustwest
November 2, 2006, 09:50 AM
It makes no sense to abandon the country's most populous state and a huge part of the national economy. California will set legislative and legal precedent on a national level if left to its devices. How about all you COWARDS stop cutting and running, and verbally sniping at us here fighting back?

And my post is as about as high road as the rest of you put together.

Wow. Three sentences to make sure I never pay attention to anything you post ever again. Well done.

As far as the OP goes I understand your frustration, but really can't hold this decision against CTD. Bill Lockyer is a rotten-to-the-core statist goon. I wouldn't put it past him at all to try to bankrupt a company with frivolous legal manuvering.

It's a question of risk management. And apparently CTD has decided that the risk of selling those items in California is too high.

Art Eatman
November 2, 2006, 10:28 AM
This is getting to be more internal squabbling than discussing. Either discuss or quit, okay? The horse is well on its way to being dead, and griping about California is pointless...

Art

Creeping Incrementalism
November 2, 2006, 01:17 PM
Medula Oblongata,

I know Californiaís gun laws can look nasty and random at first glance, but they really are not that un-navigable, and there is a workable system that companies can safely operate within. Furthermore, of the items in question (ďAssault Weapon GearĒ), many companies sell them today in California with no problems, yet only a few companies, such as CTD, refuses to ship them to Calfironia.

Firearms are a whole different ball of wax, and CTD does not sell them anywhere in the U.S. mail orderóCalifornia isnít singled out, so your points on these items are not valid to this specific discussion.

Laws regarding holsters can pop-up anywhere, and often do, in otherwise gun-friendly states, but CTD still allows the sale of those to California. Anyway, thatís not really what Iím talking about. What Iím talking about is an incredibly stupid and lazy reading of SB23, the 2000 Assault Weapon law.

Another that comes to mind. Remember Cobray? Yup, sued into bankrupsy in California over their flare launchers.

Because they were defective and blew up in the shooters hands, not because of some byzantine legal landmine.

How about.... Nah, its not worth my time to list the thousands of firearms companies that have either gone bankrupt, been forced to suspend all sales to CA residents, or that have been sued into capitulation with CA over completely legal products.

Thousands of companies? Thatís the kind of exaggeration Iím talking about. Iíd like to see you name one of one out-of-state company that went out of business because they made a mistake interpreting California law.

MY PREDICTION: Within 10 years CA will declare a "public health emergency" because of "firearms deaths" and order the comfiscation of all privately owned firearms.

More exaggeration.

I'm excercizing my constitutional right to bitch and complain the same as you. The difference is that my complaining doesn't fall on deaf ears, such as anything you try to camplain to the CA government about

Not correct, the micro-stamping bill, for example, was killed because of pressure on a few Democratic politicians that came to our side.

crunker
November 2, 2006, 03:18 PM
Hey, they don't make exceptions for L.E., so that's kind of a step in the right direction.
What needs to happen in CA is a political revolution.

Brass Fetcher
November 3, 2006, 08:25 PM
What will you do when the socialist mentality fully infects your state? I'm going back and forth with Ebay right now (CA based company), regarding a reflex sight - THAT THEY SAY IS A PART TO A MACHINEGUN. Sorry for the yelling, but this situation gives me a lot of insight as to the rot in their collective brain (hoplophobes) when it comes to guns - anything that could be 'evil' you better believe, is evil with those people.

What will you do when they infect Texas, Florida and other 'gun friendly' states? Where will you move. CA RKBA people have my respect for having the balls to speak up. Ebay is the same IMO as CTD and more companies will only follow suit (to avoid any liability) - so support those businesses who support you.

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