Savage 12BVSS vs. Remington 700 VLS in Win .243


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Nortonics
April 7, 2006, 10:57 AM
Pretty straightforward.

Caliber is Win .243

http://www.savagearms.com/images/centerfire/varmint/12bvss_sala.jpg
Savage 12BVSS
Link: http://www.savagearms.com/12bvss.htm

http://www.remington.com/images/products/firearms/centerfire/smsil_700vls.jpg
Remington 700 VLS
Link: http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_700/model_700_VLS.asp

Both guns are practically identical in terms of cost and style. I kinda' have my eye on one of the two, but would like to hear everybody else's ideas before making the final pick. Which one would you get and why?

TIA!

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ocabj
April 7, 2006, 11:08 AM
Definitely the Savage 12BVSS. SS action and barrel. Heavy fluted barrel 26" barrel. Excellent laminate stock with a nice comb, palm swell, and flat foreend for benchrest shooting. Large bolt knob and easily adjustable trigger. Plus the Savage has the benefit of the barrel nut design for easy barrel swaps.

Yes, I own a Savage.

Eat Beef
April 7, 2006, 11:29 AM
You're comparing apples and oranges as far as stainless and blued.

That said, I'd go with the Remington. You can't beat the 700 action, unless you buy a custom.

Go look at some benchrest forums. There's always an arguement about whether a 700 is good enough to shoot benchrest, or if you need a custom job. You never see a Savage, a Winchester, a Ruger, or even a Weatherby mentioned.

BTW, the stainless action doesn't bring anything to the table, other than looks.

And of course, either would be great, accurate varmint guns.

Eat Beef

chakup
April 7, 2006, 11:30 AM
add another vote for the savage.

chakup
April 7, 2006, 11:31 AM
savage is being used more and more:
better out of the box, easily adjustable trigger, user barrel swap capability.

RugerOldArmy
April 7, 2006, 12:52 PM
Hands down, the Savage. I'd also very much disagree on the consensus in the benchrest forums. (See Benchrest.com or 6mmBR.com)

The Rem 700 actions used to be trued for benchrest quite often. Now it is not a cost-effective option, although many still do it. There are some fine BR actions now, some that even drop-in as a replacement for a 700, that are far superior to a trued 700 action.

For a factory rifle, the Savage has a better trigger, better barrel, and will, in most cases, out shoot the Rem out of the box.

I still like Rem 700's, but mainly for the smoother action (than the savage), and the aftermarket parts/stock support.

I'm confident in two things: Some will defend the Rem 700, the VLS is popular. I'm also confident the majority will vote savage. The BVSS model seems to be a particulary well liked model.

danurve
April 7, 2006, 12:58 PM
Shoulder each one if you can at the same shop before you decide.

I rolled with the Remington. Some rifles just seem to mold themselves into your arms.

http://huntny.us/images/243vlsr.jpg

That's the .243 version btw. Even with a get-by sportview scope she'll drive 70 & 85 gr. recipies into tight groups all day long. Without having to try that hard, or pushing max loads either.
Before I started reloading I remember some 55's humping @ 100 yards. About the only ammo she didn't like much was the Express 100, go figure. But if you look closely at that ammo you'll see scoring and blemishes. Some PMC 100's solved that. Fed. premium 85's shoot sweet with the Sierra rounds, so I bought some bthp's and haven't looked back. Some guys like the Nosler ammo, so I tried the partitions. These rounds are not match rounds by far, but she'll sink 'em under 1" @ 100 w/4350 and that does not suck.
You will get alot of opinions on the Accutrigger being better. And you know what? It is. But if you talk to most gunsmiths they will give you a solid opinion on even the factory 700 trigger.
If I ever shoot out the barrel, and find the need to replace it with a factory or maybe a Hart barrel - then I will cross that bridge. I don't shoot continuious competition or matches either. Perhaps you do but my geuss woulld be not. So purchasing a rifle on how easy it is to swap out a barrel is a moot point. With all due respect it would be like buying a truck because of the bed liner.

edited to add;
I have thought about upgrading the glass many times. But it sure seems like extra funds are going into the fuel tank these days.

hoghunting
April 8, 2006, 12:23 AM
I'll take the Savage. In fact I did in 22-250, and I have never regretted it. I bought a new Rem 700 in .17 Rem and it went back to the factory twice and the problems were never completely fixed. The dealer sent it back the 3rd time, and let me trade it for the Savage. Had enough of Remington.

The Savage is one of the most accurate rifles that I own, with 5 shot groups measuring 3/8".

only1asterisk
April 8, 2006, 12:41 AM
Either one is fine, I think I'd buy the Remington for the same money.

David

Kiwi98J
April 8, 2006, 12:59 AM
Savage - Faster lock time, self centering bolthead, full contact locking lugs, adjustable headspace to my dies, button rifled barrel, recoil lub indexed to action and owner interchangable barrels and boltheads. If Savage would improve chamber porting, machine the bolt raceways instead of broaching and lap the barrel, I'd truely be happy.

Rmington - lipstick and rouge and another trip to the smith with a wad of cash to set headspace to my dies, center the bolthead, get full locking lug contact and change a barrel. But, man are they smooth and that hammer forged barrel doesnt copper and my smiith loves me.

js2013
April 8, 2006, 09:38 PM
I'm a Remington guy but if I was to buy a bolt action today it would be a Savage. Mostly because it's so easy to change barrels. I can shoot out a barrel a year and easy barrel replacement (for worn out barrels or switching calibers) is much simpler with the Savage.

dakotasin
April 8, 2006, 11:08 PM
kiwi- are you sure about the locktime? i'm pretty sure its the other way around. as for the headspace thing, i form my brass to my gun, not my gun to my brass, so that is a non-issue to me.

the self-centering bolt-head would automatically indicate full contact lugs, but i regard that shifty bolthead as a weakness, not a strength.

i'm not a fan of stainless actions, but i do like stainless barrels. the stainless actions bother me because i perceive them (real or imagined, i don't know, but its my perception) as inferior, and i like the looks of a blued action, especially when combined w/ a ss barrel.

anyway, i have a few of each (actually down to my last 2 savages - finally), and the rifles i buy now are not savage (mostly remington, a few sako). so, i'd go w/ the vls (i have the 308, and a pair of 22-250's in vls). very happy w/ them.

rangerruck
April 9, 2006, 02:33 AM
but also , i would choose the 6mm over either in a heartbeat. for that you have to get an old Remmy mohawk.

Kiwi98J
April 9, 2006, 04:40 AM
Dakotsin

are you sure about the locktime Yes, the Savage m-10/110 series at 1.6 milliseconds from sear release to primer impact is about half the Remington 3.0 msecs and much quicker than the Winchester & Browning designs at 4.0. Aftermarkert titanium pins and heavier springs will get you faster lock times but then sear drag has to be addressed. The downside for the Savage striker design is the cocking pin is intergal with the firing pin necessitating the heavy spring Savages are noted for. I have no data for the Sako design.

as for the headspace thing, i form my brass to my gun, not my gun to my brass, so that is a non-issue to me. To each his own ... I count it an advantage to have my dies replicate my chambers without the cost to have custom dies made with the finish reamer.

the self-centering bolt-head would automatically indicate full contact lugs, but i regard that shifty bolthead as a weakness, not a strength Again, to each his own ... For a mass produced design to lockup with "automatic" full lug contact while centering the boltface achieving concentricity of bullet centerline to receiver centerline is a significant advantage compared to a fixed bolthead, no matter your preception.

Gewehr98
April 9, 2006, 09:14 AM
It's the basis for most of the long-range bolt rifles in both police and military hands. I'm tickled pink with my 700PSS, the trigger was no problem to adjust where I liked it. My 1973 700 BDL Custom Deluxe is a pure joy to shoulder and shoot, as opposed to my similar vintage Savage 110. At least that particular Savage has a nice adjustable trigger, sans the fiddly safety bits seen on them now.

One of my fellow F-Class competitors with a Savage had to quit during a match, due to that 2-piece bolt. He sheared the bolt head retaining pin. No thanks.

adjustable headspace to my dies

So they cut the Savage chamber with the same reamer used to cut your dies, so that the headspace and all other chamber dimensions are exactly the same between the two? Neat-O! Throwing my arbor press and Redding dies away, gonna get me a benchrest Savage! Woo-Hoo!

dakotasin
April 9, 2006, 10:27 AM
I count it an advantage to have my dies replicate my chambers without the cost to have custom dies made with the finish reamer.


it would be an advantage if you had the reamer that was used to make your chamber. otherwise, all you're doing is getting close, which can be accomplished thru neck-sizing. if you really want a tight fit, neck up your cases, then neck it down only as much as you need to fit.

i'd like to see your lock-time source. i did a search and the only thing i came up w/ was that the lock time is reputed to be faster, but is actually slower because of additional mass.

i still don't see the advantage of the 2-piece design, other than for cartridge changes. and really, how much of a difference does it make? i doubt, that even w/ the floating bolt head, that there is 100% lock up because that would mean the machining on the mating surfaces would have to be perfect, and i doubt that it is on any gun, much less on an economy gun. in fact, on my oldest savage (the one w/ the most use) i have a 90/40 wear pattern - certainly nowhere close to 100/100, and it closely approximates what the wear on my 700's is.

brentwal
April 9, 2006, 12:00 PM
Savage

Nortonics
April 13, 2006, 06:17 PM
Guys, thank you so much for all the input! Man, I've been pondering this purchase seriously for just over a month now, as well as the glass for this thing.

As was suggested above, I had the fortunate experience of being able to hold both of these exact guns in this exact caliber, new on the shelf at a local Gander Mountain. Now I believe this just may be a first in my gun purchasing endeavors where I was at one location, and they has the exact guns in stock at once that I could compare against!

Without too many details, because I truly believe that both of these guns are really perfect-O as each and every one of you folks knows. Really, who can argue over a few tenths of an inch on a non-accurized gun? Serious competitors know they're gonna' drop more money into these things no matter what, and are usually happy and excited to do so.

And also as was mentioned above, man-O-man, I sure hope that I won't be 'shouldering' either of these things too often! They are HEAVY! 10 pounds worth before optics. Nope, this gun will pretty much sit on a Harris for the Varmints and on a bench rest while punching paper.

Another big objective of this purchase will be the pleasure and understanding of handloading for this gun. This will be my first centerfire rifle cartridge endeavor. Been loading handgun ammo for a few years now - 9 different calibers, but mainly thousands of .45 ACP for practice. Obviously these precision rifle reloadings are quite different and can be as demanding as we care it to be. I can get into this as I'm the anal one that creates pistol loads that are so precise and accurate that it's astonished me - often devising and creating loads that work for any particular gun that have a Established Spread of only 2 fps across a ten shot group running around 1000 fps in velocity. Anal for handgun ammo yes, but fun and learned a ton about how to make loads truly accurate. I think this will be a shoe-in for me...

Okay, so back to my choice. I handled both those guns at Gander Mountain. Loveingly stroked them a bit too while the sales guy wasn't watching... :p

Overall, looking both guns over while sitting right next to one-another there isn't a whole lot of question which one I preferred. I gotta' tell ya boys, that 12BVSS is gorgeous. The fit and finish of that thing is incredible for a $600 gun. There's other reasons why I believe this gun would be a better fit for me too - one of the big ones being that I don't plan to do a whole lot of anything to upgrade this gun further.

Talked to Cabela's yesterday too. Promo thing on the 22nd using or opening a Cabala's Card - $100 off any $500+ purchase. They got 4 of the Win.243's in the 12BVSS ready to go at the warehouse. $640 minus the $100 - man, gotta' love that!

Now onto glass. Seriously got my eye on the upcoming Nikon Buckmaster 6-18x40 with the all new BDC reticle - I think it'll make a good marriage with the 12BVSS.

Thanks again guys for all your input - read it and took all comments into consideration. I'll get a post together in the future with an update I'm sure...

Master of Arms
April 19, 2008, 11:42 PM
Savage is spanking not only rifle makers in its $$$$ class but even the bigger $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ class. I own a browning a ruger and a savage and I`ve had many others so my opinion isn`t bias. The Savage’s New Model 12 F-Class is the best shooting rifle that I`ve ever witnessed. It`s made with the best materials and great parts, match chambered barrels and many different stocks can be used with it. I know that this isn`t the exact rifle that is being compared, I just thought I`d throw that in. I have read in a gun magazine, that I`ve been looking for, for about a week, that there was a test done where they bolted several different brand rifles down on the back of some sort of trailor and shot 3 rounds out of each gun at a XXX yards target. I remember that Remington, Sako, Tikka, Remington, Weatherby and CZ were used along with a few others and guess what, the Savage spanked all of them in all 3 rounds that they shot. Oh and just for the sake of telling you, the Walmart Weatherby placed second. People like to buy exotic or more expensive weapons as a testimant to their loyalty or something. Maybe it`s just to say that they own them or maybe they truly believe in them. Some people buy a particular brand because of the name. I buy them after I`ve done lots and lots of research and I never buy them without asking the folks here at THR.:D at least in the past few months while logging in at a friends and since I`ve got my own account. I strongly suggest to you that the Savage is where I`d put my money if I were you because in a way I am. I`m about to buy a Savage Model 12 just as soon as I can sale my 7 mag and I`m buying it because it is absolutely the best that I`ve found under a grand and as for you its definetly the better of the two rifles without any doubt. Personally, I don`t care for Remington at all because I`ve had nothing but bad luck with the Remingtons so I guess in a way i am bias. Read the reviews on the Savage and how its won "Rifle of the Year" a few times by a few different magazines and then read the forums here at THR on Savage`s and you`ll see that there are very few, if any, that would say anything differently than I`ve stated about a Savage. Simply put, Savage = Awsome. It probably won`t be long before Savage has alot more rifles in the 4 digit{$$$$.00} category. That`s my two cents.:)

Shawnee
April 20, 2008, 02:27 AM
Actually, either is darned good but I'll vote Remngton (since I have one) :D

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/FiveO/243Rem700.jpg


:cool:

YodaVader
April 20, 2008, 06:10 AM
Good luck with the 12BVSS.

Having owned a 700VLS and currently owning a 12BVSS - both in .223 , if it were not for the fact the 12BVSS is the worst fouling rifle I ever owned I could recommend it without hesitation. Luckily the Savage design allows for easy barrel/caliber changes and the appeal of a match barrel is growing on me.

12BVSS does have a very nice out of box trigger and is free floated (the VLS needed the barrel channel relieved) Accuracy was close between the two but the VLS was far more consistent. Did replace trigger on the VLS with a Jewell but also replaced the Savage with a Sharp Shooter Supply competition trigger. But out of box the Accu-Trigger is much better.

I still like my current owned 700s , no fouling issues and consistent accuracy.

CZ223
April 20, 2008, 08:56 AM
I just bought my eighth Savage rifle the other day. This one is the 17HMR BTVS to go with my 5 BVSS's and 2 VLP's. Obviously I am a big fan of the Savage but, to be clear, I have owned LOTS of other rifles along the way including a half dozen each Remingtons, Rugers, and a couple of Winchesters. The Remingtons never impressed me. I had a big thing for the older Rugers several years back then I started buying Savages. I now own only Savage bolt action rifles. You will love the Accu-trigger once you get used to it. If you do have fouling problems, and you probably will, just keep shooting it and clean with a strong copper solvent like Sweets. It will smooth up after a couple hundred rounds. You could also try lapping the barrel if you want to speed up the process. All of my centerfire rifles regularly turn in 1/2MOA groups and better. I shot 2 1/4" 5 shot groups the other day with with one of my 204's.:D

As to your choice in glass, you are on the right track, I think. I have a Nikon Monarch 6.5x20 that is absolutely the brightest scope that I own. I am not familiar with the BDC model though what I have heard has been mixed. I am not a fan of anything that clutters up the scope. I own one Leupold with Mil-dots and that sits on an AR-15. I currently own 4 6.5x20 Leupolds and probably 4 or 5 more in various powers. I have not used the Nikon Buckmaster series of scopes but what I have heard is that they are a good scope for the money. I think I would go with one of those or the Leupold Rifleman series. I had a Weaver Classic 2x10 that came on a rifle that I bought used. I was very impressed with the clarity though I did sell it. I really like much higher powered scopes.

Don't be afraid of buying extra barrels in different calibers. Good used barrels can be had for around $150. Start with something with same sized bolt face like a 308 or 22-250. All you really need to buy for tools is the barrel nut wrench. I and others can tell you how to make inexpensive jigs for changing the barrels. I recently changed a 308 over to 22-250 using a barel that I bought for $125 shipped. It shoots my handloads under 1/2 MOA and it shoots Winchester white box almost as well.:D

Nortonics
April 20, 2008, 09:28 AM
Somebody got an old thread running again - from 2 years ago. Good stuff regardless...

I ended up putting a Nikon Monarch UCC Long Range 6.5-20x44 AO with the fine crosshair reticle onto this gun with Burris Signature rings. Makes for a nice 50/50 split in cost - around $600 for the platform and $600 for the optics.

Love it - easily shoots MOA all day...

http://webpages.charter.net/nortonics/shooting/12bvss_win243.jpg

Here's a typical pattern:

http://webpages.charter.net/nortonics/shooting/savagefinalbreakin.jpg

The graph is accurate - .25" minor graduations and 1" major graduations. These 5 shots comprise rounds 41 through 45 through the new barrel at that time. The lonely hole was the first shot after the previous cleaning. Loads were Hornady 95 grain SST with 31 grains of IMR 4064 for an approximate velocity of 2600 fps. Brass was hand preped new Winchester - full length sized, trimmed, flash hole and primer pocket uniformed - not neck turned or weighed though. Determined within a gnats ass my chamber OAL to the lands and loaded to within .015" of 'em.

RugerOldArmy
April 20, 2008, 11:22 AM
Ya know, once you see the holes downrange, the Savage barrel-nut looks almost sexy! No complaints about Savage's accuracy from me either.

equitytrader
April 20, 2008, 11:29 AM
Remington. The action is smoother and the trigger is a real adjustable trigger and not some marketing gimmick trying to put a silk hat on a pig, or in this case applying a fancy name to a stamped sheet metal sear trigger that is only adjustable for weight. Also, if this is for hunting I'd choose blued over stainless for light reflection and a tapered barrel over the heavy because I wouldn't want to carry that much weight afield all day.

RugerOldArmy
April 20, 2008, 11:59 AM
I like Remingtons. They're fun to shoot a Savage against. :neener:

Master of Arms
April 20, 2008, 02:26 PM
worst fouling rifle
Could you explain? When? How it effected the rifle? How to prevent it from happening? I ask lots of questions but it`s helping tremendously.

The action is smoother and the trigger is a real adjustable trigger and not some marketing gimmick trying to put a silk hat on a pig,
Wow! first time I`ve heard that one in a while. I disagree with you about this statement because I`ve held both rifles in my hands several times in the past two weeks. I`ve also held several other brands. The worst bolt slide goes to Tikka. The best ergonomics, trigger mechanism, aftermarket upgrades, and barrel goes to the Savage 12. Although the Remington 700 is an above average concept from Remington, it remains to come up short in many areas compared to the many other brands of rifles in the same class and the cost of Remingtons are high in comparison, not even close to the highest but they`re still very expensive to be a Remington. My 3rd cent.

equitytrader
April 20, 2008, 02:31 PM
Tikka has one of the smoothest actions I've felt. As far as the trigger in Savage, it's a stamped steel sear that's made so cheap that they had to put in a trigger activated safety incase it lets go. Quality triggers have machined steel parts with adjustable creep, weight and overtravel - the Savage doesn't have that, just weight and it's not infinitely adjustable. I couldn't agree more with you that Remington is overpriced for what you get though. I don't care for Savage or Remington; Remington was the lesser of two evils for me.

Master of Arms
April 20, 2008, 02:49 PM
Tikka has one of the smoothest actions I've felt.
Felt many??;) I have. It doesn`t.

The trigger isn`t cheap. People think that just because the accutrigger is a production trigger that it stinks. Do a little research about the accutrigger and you`ll see for yourself. One guy in one of the threads that I was reading earlier made the statement of replacing the accutrigger and regretting it. The trigger isn`t perfect but no "production" trigger is. Most people that buy a target rifle seem to have their own preference of trigger. Some may change the accutrigger before they`ve "felt" it and some may keep the accutrigger once they`ve "felt" it. But I can tell you this, the Savage production rifle thats being compared here has a better trigger than the Remington that its being compared with and most all other production rifles. Out of the box awsome. Who says the accutrigger can`t be modified anyway, just like any other production trigger, even though it`s not needed.
Guys I can`t help but love it, Savage is kick`n butt, who`d a thunk it?:neener::D

Horsemany
April 20, 2008, 03:17 PM
I don't want to see any Remington fans calling anything on the Savage cheap. Everything about a Remmy 700 design is for ease of manufacture. That's how they killed the Winchester model 70 in 1964. And this is the opinion of someone who owns more than 1 700 and shoots them regularly.

equitytrader
April 20, 2008, 04:44 PM
The Accutrigger is only adjustable for weight in given parameters, it is not adjustable for anything else; if you think that this means the trigger is superior to anything beyond an SKS trigger you need to gain some experience with quality rifles and then you'll realize what a hack trigger the Savage has. Savage is to rifles what Taurus is to handguns - they'll always be die hard fans that defend them.

Horsemany
April 20, 2008, 05:11 PM
equitytrader

I couldn't agree more about the accutrigger. It's a far cry from a Jewell or even a Timney. But that doesn't negate the fact that Savage has been producing more accurate factory rifles than Remington for at least 20 years. There are several things I'd change on the Savage in a perfect world. And sometimes people think they're more than they really are IMO. Remington has built way too many heavy barelled rifles in the last 10 years that could barely shoot under 1" from my experience. Remington built it's accuracy reputation from guns that were heavily modified. It's been my experience with Remington's that accuracy will be average by todays standards. I'd even say it's quite likely a sporter weight barrel Tikka will outshoot 700's out of the box.

jimmyraythomason
April 20, 2008, 05:27 PM
Buy the Remington to look at and the Savage to put little holes in the 10 ring!

Master of Arms
April 20, 2008, 06:09 PM
if you think that this means the trigger is superior to anything beyond an SKS trigger you need to gain some experience with quality rifles
It`s not I that lacks the experience if you think that its only adjustable for weight. It gives the owner the ease of adjusting the trigger without a trip to the gunsmith. It`s a totaly false statement to say that the trigger is hardly better than an SKS. It`s one of the best triggers made on any production platform and it`ll only get better. I`m not a die-hard fan of Savage, I`m a die-hard fan of the facts. I own only one Savage and I`m very happy with 10 out of 10 headshots 2 days ago at 400+ with my accutrigger which ended up being a 10 shot 3 inch group while shooting from a 50 gallon drum and using my fanny-pack for stabilization. To sum it up, you buy your Remys and I`ll stick with my Browning 7 mag, Savage 7 mag, Hi-Point, Glock 23, CZ 75 B, Ruger 300 mag, Ruger P94, Ruger 10-22 and Winchester 30-30. Welcome to THR.

browningguy
April 20, 2008, 06:44 PM
I shoot a 12 FV in .243, got the FV because I knew I was going to restock it anyway. The 700's are good enough rifles and sometimes you get one that is a real shooter, but the only ones being used in serious benchrest have been worked over pretty well. At least truing the action and trigger work, and often sleeved, so it's not like an out of the box Remmy.

The Savage is not an out of the box benchrest rifle either, but my experience has been that, with the heavy barreled models, they will more often than not be sub-1/2 moa guns. Mine shoot's mid .3's and low .4's with regularity, nothing done to it, haven't even adjusted the trigger. And I'm not a real good trigger puller.

This is with my standard handload for under 300 yard shooting, 5 shots at 100 yards, from a bipod, with a hard hold on the shoulder. This is my best target to date with it by the way, I'm usually in the .35-.45" range.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jcm9371/243target005.jpg

sublimaze41
April 20, 2008, 06:52 PM
How do you adjust that trigger on the Rem???

I love being able to adjust the trigger myself without a trip to the gunsmith.

skinewmexico
April 20, 2008, 07:14 PM
So how many stock, factory Remingtons ended up in the top 5 in F/TR at this year's F Class Nationals? Top 10? How many customs? I love watching Remington fans cling to the successes of the 60's and 70's. Has nothing to do with what they put out in 2008, for Remington or Savage.

jmr40
April 20, 2008, 07:46 PM
Adjusting a Remington trigger is not hard, but cannot be easily explained in text. If you can get someone to show how, you can do one in about 15 min. and have a far superior trigger than the accutrigger, which I agree is more of a gadget than useful. A pre-accutrigger Savage is just as good if properly adjusted. The only purpose of the accutrigger is to prevent the gun from accidently firing if set too light. It does nothing to improve the crispness of the trigger or to adjust for overtravel, which is at least as important as pull weight.

Savage may well be building some accurate rifles but I have not found one yet. Granted we may be comparing apples to oranges because I am a hunter first and have no desire to carry a 26" bull barreled gun chambered in a varmit round. When I am buying a bolt rifle I am looking for something that weighs between 7-8lbs scoped and with enough pop to take the largest animal I am likely to get a chance to hunt. Which means a black bear weighing up to 500 lbs. I also want it to shoot 3 shots into less than 1 inch at 100 yards.

Of the rifles I have owned over the last 35-40 years the Tikka is the best I have found for this job. I have 2, one in 30-06 and another .308 and they seldom shoot a group larger than 1" and I never go to the range without 2-3 groups well under 1/2". 200 yard groups typically run around 1 1/2". My Steyr shoots groups equally as well but at 8 1/2 lbs is more of a range gun than a hunting gun.

I have found Remington 700's to be almost as accurate after the triggers are adjusted. I have owned 25-30 of them over the years and currently have 4. Once again they almost never group over an inch. I rank the Tikka's and Steyr ahead of them because I don't get the really small groups quite as often.

Winchester in my experience are more of a crap shoot. I've had about 10-12 over the years and some were equal to the Remingtons. Others were 2" guns and have been let go. I currently have 3. Two of them are consistent 1" guns, but I have never managed to get a group smaller than 1". The other happens to be a featherweight with the prettiest piece of wood I own. Not much of a shooter but it aint goin anywhere.

Savage and Ruger rifles I have really tried to like. I have had 4 Savages (1 currently) and 6-7 Rugers (1 currently). In my experience they are perfectly acceptable, with groups of 1 1/2" being typical and some groups coming close to 1", but I have never shot a sub1" group with either brand. Both Ruger and Savage seem picky about ammo as well. I can get close to 1" with certain brands and bullet weights, but others seem to wander all over the target. The other brands may print a 180 grain slightly lower than a 150 grain bullet but group size remains the same.

While I think all of the brands are good guns, when I go hunting I'll be taking the Tikka.

equitytrader
April 20, 2008, 09:37 PM
Horsemany,

I couldn't agree more about Remington's poor quality and real lack of accuracy, I've seen some that had a hard time hitting a paper plate at 100 yards. With these two rifles we're talking about I'd like to have a Remington action and trigger with a Savage barrel set up. Neither the Savage or Remington are my cup of tea but the Remington was less cheesy. Sorry if any of you are taking my distaste for Savage as a promotion for Remington - Remington's quality has gone from bad to worse in the last few years - Remington 710, anyone?

Master,

I'm a fan of CZs, Weatherby SMOA, Belgian Browning Medallions, Sako, Winchesters with Mauser actions, Rugers (although the only model I've seen with an adjustable in a bolt action is the Target Varmint with a two-stage) - you get the point. I don't like either of the rifles in question. As far as adjusting triggers the Accutrigger doesn't cut it; weight is the least important of the three adjustments. I know how to adjust triggers correctly so a dumbed down trigger does nothing for me. You certainly have a point with the average person adjusting triggers though, for the most part they'll just make it unsafe.

JMR40 is exactly right about it, it's easy once you know but pretty difficult to explain through text. It's a lot of trial and error getting the creep right, then setting the overtravel beyond the point of release and backing off until it releases and then adjusting the weight to the desirable amount.

Master of Arms
April 20, 2008, 10:19 PM
lol -gettin there

YodaVader
April 20, 2008, 11:35 PM
Quote:
worst fouling rifle

Could you explain? When? How it effected the rifle? How to prevent it from happening? I ask lots of questions but it`s helping tremendously.

Well , out of all the rifles I have ever owned the 12BVSS is the worst at fouling , pretty plain and simple. How does it affect the rifle? The fouling severly degrades the ability of the rifle to shoot consistently. My ideal solution to prevent it would be to install a new barrel.

I couldn't agree more about Remington's poor quality and real lack of accuracy, I've seen some that had a hard time hitting a paper plate at 100 yards.

It is not too difficult to hit a paper plate @ 100 yards with a MKII Ruger 22lr pistol. All the 700s I have owned will easily exceed paper plate accuracy levels.

Since so many like to post single groups, here is a series of groups shot on two range visits , all shots @ 100 yards with a relatively light 7 1/2 pound Remington 700LTR in .223. My 12BVSS has never even come remotely close to this level of consistency. Anyone want to unload your 700VLS for a 12BVSS?

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a106/celestron4/223targets001ajpg.jpg

jimmyraythomason
April 20, 2008, 11:59 PM
YodaVader, If you are having barrel fouling specific to the rifle and not related to the ammo,you simply have a rough cut rifleing. Bore lapping will cure this problem. You can do it your self or let your smith do it.

Master of Arms
April 21, 2008, 09:49 AM
The fouling severly degrades the ability of the rifle to shoot consistently. My ideal solution to prevent it would be to install a new barrel.
If you are having barrel fouling specific to the rifle and not related to the ammo,you simply have a rough cut rifleing. Bore lapping will cure this problem. You can do it your self or let your smith do it.

I`ve checked and found no other evidence of "fouling". I`ve found that improper reloading or poor cleaning can attribute to a "fouled" barrel. Also, preconditioning the barrel can help prevent this problem.
Rough cut rifleing in "any" barrel would be in the very, very, low percentile but it would be possible.

All I know is that the few Savage Model 12`s that I`ve witnessed at the range were awsomely accurate, they were shooting orange golf balls hanging from a piece of wire at 400+ yards, and I didn`t see any Remington 700`s at the last few matches. Didn`t the Savage 12 F series win a few recent national matches?

jimmyraythomason
April 21, 2008, 09:59 AM
Master-of-Arms, ordinarily I would agree with you. It seems that "fouling" is only a problem with this particular rifle which would eliminate the factors that you mentioned. Since the same loads and cleaning techniques are apllied to the other rifles ,the problem MUST originate in the rifleing of this particular rifle. During the rifleing process, as tools become worn/dull, they do leave a little roughness if not replaced in a timely manner. I agree,it is rare,but it does happen.

Master of Arms
April 21, 2008, 11:59 AM
jimmyraythomason, MUST originate in the rifleing of "this particular" rifle
that`s correct
During the rifleing process, as tools become worn/dull, they do leave a little roughness if not replaced in a timely manner. I agree,it is rare,but it does happen.
By saying tools are you talking about the tools used in the manufacturing process? I couldn`t agree more. The point that I was making on his statement was that this was probably an iscolated incident in which either improper reloading, improper cleaning, which would include something such as not using a good solvent along with a copper solvent or maybe by using something less or more than exact in size for brushing the bore. The other point is that in the process of distributing thousands upon thousands of rifles I`m sure that all maufacturers suffer from this occurance from time to time.

equitytrader
April 21, 2008, 01:46 PM
The fouling issue with Savage is due to the rough machining in their rifling and lack of lapping - this is pretty easy to see with a clean rifle, you can see machining turn marks in the rifling.

. . . Which is why I prefer CZ and their hammer forged, machine lapped barrels. But I don't want to be one of those guys trying to hijack a thread, so nevermind.

jimmyraythomason
April 21, 2008, 01:51 PM
I have to say that I have owned several Savage 65M,110,111,and 112s. None of them had rough rifling and all shot MOA or close to it. My point was that a rough barrel is easily cured by lapping. I don't think we are at odds at all on this matter.

equitytrader
April 21, 2008, 03:37 PM
76940

That's the largest picture I could get uploaded, but it's good enough you can clearly see the machining marks in the lands and grooves. It's a .17HMR heavy stainless Savage that's new. It's the closest I could get with the 35-70 lens on this Nikon. Every Savage I've seen has clear machining marks in the barrel.

As far as lapping, I suppose you could, but then you'd be running an even looser bore on a barrel that's already far from match-grade and not many people have that equipment or know how, whereas all you need with a Remington is a screw driver to adjust the trigger. If you wanted to put that kind of work or money into a gun to make it right you could always just buy a low-end Remington and put an H.S. barrel on it.

Master of Arms
April 21, 2008, 04:11 PM
YodaVader,
worst at fouling , pretty plain and simple. How does it affect the rifle? The fouling severly degrades the ability of the rifle to shoot consistently. My ideal solution to prevent it would be to install a new barrel.
What about the barrel conditioning kits? You know, the 3 bullet kits that are used to condition the barrel before use and after X amount of shots? Do you think that it could help or prevent "fouling"? Aren`t these used alot by most pros to help keep their barrels in good condition and extend the life of the barrel?

Equity, I`ve contacted Savage about your little mishap and I was told that if the barrel was bad you could send it to them and it would be checked for negligence and if there were no signs of negligence that it would be replaced. You did say it was new right? Also checked with the BBS and with a service rep. to find out what kind of returns they were getting. Said few and for between. That should take care of it for you.

skinewmexico
April 21, 2008, 05:05 PM
The 3 bullet kits for conditioning barrels are great........if you want to move your throat. They also invalidate the warranty on the barrels most of the "pros" use.

equitytrader
April 21, 2008, 06:09 PM
Master,

The picture I posted wasn't mine, I work at a gun dealer and I just grabbed one off the shelf - all Savage barrels I've seen have those tooling marks in the barrels, I picked a stainless barrel because I thought it would show the marks better than steel. Thanks for looking out though.

I've never tried that barrel break-in stuff and I'm not huge on using any brushes other than nylon in my rifles. Rifles are precision and I don't want to risk degrading anything. In fact, I'm so paranoid about it I won't use a metal rod in my .22 because I don't want to risk it, I use a 1/16" 3' pine dowel rod from Menards that cost $.16 and I use it to push patches through. Maybe I'm taking it too far. Also, I've never heard of a three-bullet kit for breaking in; seems like I would have after dealing in guns for so long.

YodaVader
April 21, 2008, 07:59 PM
I`ve checked and found no other evidence of "fouling". .

You've checked huh? So evidently my rifle is the one oddball that was produced. Betcha if I said it was my 700 doing the same then the replies would be: "Oh yeah , typical Remington hammer forged turd barrel!"

I drove over to have my Accu-Trigger trigger replaced at Sharp Shooter Supply , which is owned and operated by Fred Moreo , who is one of the most well known Savage riflesmiths in the country. I told Fred that my 12BVSS seemed to foul fast and he did not act surprised when I told him. He was not defensive on the subject at all like those here and Savage rifles are what allows him to make a living. At the time my rifle was fairly new and he gave me the impression that it would smooth out the more I shot it.

I`ve found that improper reloading or poor cleaning can attribute to a "fouled" barrel

Considering I use the same equipment , same bullets , powder , primers for my reloads in my Savage and Rem 700s and the only one with fouling issues is the Savage I would feel safe saying there is nothing improper with my reloads.

Also my cleaning methods do not contribute to fouling in my 700s.

The fouling issue with Savage is due to the rough machining in their rifling and lack of lapping - this is pretty easy to see with a clean rifle, you can see machining turn marks in the rifling.

Makes sense to me , I can look down the barrel of the 12BVSS after running a wet patch down the bore and see the rough areas where residue appears embedded. Doing the same with my 700 and the bore appears smooth all the way through.

What about the barrel conditioning kits? Aren`t these used alot by most pros to help keep their barrels in good condition and extend the life of the barrel?

I think most "pros" are using hand lapped match barrels from the start and when barrels start to lose competition accuracy they simply rebarrel with a new match barrel.

My next rifle will be definitely be a custom build - the 12BVSS would be the least expensive rifle to build on , to me , the greatest Savage advantage over any other make.

My 700LTR still remains , by far , the most consistently accurate factory rifle I have ever fired so I will not mess with a good thing.

I have a 700 SPS which was bought to be customized with a Krieger match barrel , still have not decided.

My next option is to build from a custom action. If I had to do it all over again instead of spending $1100 on the 12BVSS and 700SPS I would have just bought a custom action to build on.

Anyway , everyone has a right to their favorites - to the Savage guys more power to you. I have both Savage and Rem but had great luck with Remington so that is my favorite between the two.

equitytrader
April 21, 2008, 09:06 PM
Post a range report after you install that Krieger. Thanks in advance.

RugerOldArmy
April 21, 2008, 09:36 PM
... At the time my rifle was fairly new and he gave me the impression that it would smooth out the more I shot it. ...


You need to take his advice Yoda. Tell us how it works. (Respectable targets with that Remmy too. Wish I had been so blessed with my Remmy's. Down to one, but it's far from stock.)

I don't think Savage hand laps their barrels (how could they afford to), but their barrels do shoot well for factory barrels. My experience was similar (copper fouling), but 200ish rounds later it shot very, very well for a factory rifle. (Regular 1" groups at 300 yards with 69 SMKs and Varget or RL-15)

I believe Savage makes good quality barrels for the money. They just don't lap them like a custom barrel maker would, or fit tight chambers (for obvious reasons). It's probably the best decision they could make, skipping lapping, since they'll shoot in anyway and it keeps the costs competitive.

The LAST thing I'd do is use those grit-covered bullets... Just get the copper out between range sessions, it'll smooth out fine. I'd actually expect this from a Savage.

My Rem XR-100 in .22-250 had a glass smooth barrel, but it didn't shoot worth ... a hoot. I bedded it etc., but had to true it and replace the barrel with a Shilen before it shot well. Once I reached that point, I'd have been better off with a Savage. A pretty rifle that doesn't shoot well doesn't deserve space in my gunsafe. I think guns should be all about holes downrange.

My CZ's have all shot well, perhaps not as well as the the heavy barreled Savages (perhaps with one exception), but certianly not as well as my Savage with a Pac-Nor in 6mm BR.

One thing of note, my .270 Win pencil barrel Savage never copper fouled. (No complaints on accuracy either.) Go figure. Maybe it's just the Stainless Savage barrels...

Auburn1992
April 21, 2008, 09:50 PM
I voted Remington

RugerOldArmy
April 21, 2008, 10:13 PM
i still don't see the advantage of the 2-piece design, other than for cartridge changes. and really, how much of a difference does it make? i doubt, that even w/ the floating bolt head, that there is 100% lock up because that would mean the machining on the mating surfaces would have to be perfect, and i doubt that it is on any gun, much less on an economy gun.

Trolling! Ya already noted bolt-head swaps and better locking lug engagement. Sounds like you already knew two reasons for the design.


...One of my fellow F-Class competitors with a Savage had to quit during a match, due to that 2-piece bolt. He sheared the bolt head retaining pin. No thanks....


Gewehr's quote would be a better case against that design, and He's posted it many times. It's about the only such tale I heard. And we know Gewehr is steeped in the legend of 98K Mausers, .45-70's, and has a green streak (a 40X, 700 PSS etc.)....all kinda cool traditional dogma, ...the stuff of lore, dogma, and personal taste. I dunno if it is objective. I can tell Remington horror stories too. Remember the barrels that left the factory half-rifled? (Pretty stringent QC there!)

Savage doesn't have lore. But the 'Green crowd' tends to deny the value and innovation Savage has had.

I'm sure that a Savage isn't a Cooper or Kelby. But where is the old Remington quality? What new designs do they have (any right-bolt left port?...Nope we get the 710...) . Were is it's value offering, certianly not a $2.5K 40-X! (Ya could've had a Cooper or a used Panda!) And now big green puts camo on a Stag and calls it innovation. Tell me, what has Remington done/made of value lately? I think they're living off the name. Sad, but they may soon go the way of the dino...

But hey, owning both, and preferring Savage, I'm biased ;)

Master of Arms
April 22, 2008, 01:42 AM
I found one kool thing about the Rems. They have an outstanding custom shop. If that helps ya any.

skinewmexico
April 22, 2008, 09:26 AM
Remington's innovation for the last few decades involves seeing what cheap for firearms people are buying, and buying that factory. The kings of re-badging.

Master of Arms
April 22, 2008, 01:35 PM
I have zero experience with the barrel conditioning loads but I think that its a great concept.:)

equitytrader
April 22, 2008, 06:20 PM
Remington's innovation for the last few decades involves seeing what cheap for firearms people are buying, and buying that factory. The kings of re-badging.


Tell me about it! I saw this Remington .22 bolt today at work, it was new, as soon as I saw it I wondered if Remington bought the design from Kimber or just broke into the patent office. I can't remember the model off hand. It's also quite impressive that many Remingtons are coming straight from Zastava now (think Yugo SKS).

YodaVader
April 22, 2008, 07:44 PM
Post a range report after you install that Krieger. Thanks in advance.

Not a sure thing at this time. Even if I took the 700SPS in to him today it would be quite a while before he could get to it. But if I do have the work performed I sure will post results!

You need to take his advice Yoda. Tell us how it works. (Respectable targets with that Remmy too. Wish I had been so blessed with my Remmy's. Down to one, but it's far from stock.)

Yeah , Fred took a lot of time to talk to me after he performed the trigger install and adjustment. At the time the 12BVSS was fairly new so I did not ask too much about the fouling. He spoke highly of the Bushnell Elite 4200 series and I eventually bought one myself. He is really a wealth of knowledge. If I decide to customize the Savage it is lucky for me that he is relatively close!

Thanks for the compliments on the targets , those were from last year when I had a couple of my best range sessions as well as pretty ideal range conditions. Learning to utilize a Jewell benchrest trigger has done wonders for my groups as well as constantly striving to improve my bench technique. Switching to a target dot reticle in my Leupold made a remarkable improvement in group consistency as well.

Truth be told I believe my 12BVSS would do just as well with a "smooth" barrel. Its weight makes it very stable off the bench. Fred has some benchrest stocks that would make it even more so.

I don't think Savage hand laps their barrels (how could they afford to), but their barrels do shoot well for factory barrels. My experience was similar (copper fouling), but 200ish rounds later it shot very, very well for a factory rifle.(Regular 1" groups at 300 yards with 69 SMKs and Varget or RL-15)

I totally agree , the expense would be too great. The 12BVSS has about 325 rounds at this point. I'll give it a "super cleaning" before the next range session and see what happens. I may eventually mount the 6X-24X Elite 4200 target dot on it too.

Very impressive shooting for 300 yards!!! I would be very pleased to say the least! The 69 MKs and the 55 Berger are what was used in the targets I fired.

Master of Arms
April 23, 2008, 01:46 PM
I`ve never had a problem with any barrel "FOULING" in any of my rifles or pistols. This may be because I clean them after EVERY time I shoot them and I always use a copper solvent along with other solvents.

Vic303
April 23, 2008, 01:58 PM
The link on the Savage does not offer it in .243Win.
The Rem 700 comes with the Monte Carlo cheekpiece to enhance your view thru your optics. The Savage might have a better trigger out of box, but not by much, plus most competent gunsmiths are far more familiar with a Remmy trigger than a Savage.

The Remmy has a coupon rebate: 2008 "Rebate Roundup"

Remington Spring Promotion


Hunters with a knack for filling their tag or limit tend to have more than success in common. They trust their hunt to Remington firearms and ammunition. To make it even better, the 2008 "Rebate Roundup" Spring Promotion offers $50 cash back on Autoloading Turkey Camo Shotguns, $30 cash back on Pump Turkey Camo Shotguns, $50 cash back on Model 700 Varmint & Model Seven Rifles (Varmint Calibers: .17-.243), $30 cash back on 700 SPS Varmint Rifles and up to $15 cash back on Wingmaster HD!
All Offers valid on purchases made 2/1/08 through 4/30/08.
All requests must be received by 5/15/08.

Firearms
Include proof of purchase sticker(s) from the documents envelope
that comes with your new rifle(s) and/or shotguns(s)

I pick the Rem 700.

Master of Arms
April 23, 2008, 10:31 PM
The Savage might have a better trigger out of box, but not by much,
Sorry to drag this on but I can`t understand why you`d think that the savage trigger isn`t a great trigger.
Far superior to anything that Remington, Winchestor, Marlin, even most Ruger triggers, out of the box. Most any trigger can be upgraded so of course after a tweek other triggers can be better but not out of the box.
As I`ve stated earlier, hate`m if you want to but Savage Arms is growing to be and has grown to be one of the better rifles on the market. I would imagine that if not, the use of them would not be utilized as much in matches all over the country. I personally can hardly wait to get my Savage Model 12. I`ve been researching rifles in the tArget class and I can`t find a better rifle with better reviews in the Savage 12 class or the Savage 12 $$$$ class so I guess to each his own.

equitytrader
April 23, 2008, 10:50 PM
Far superior to anything that Remington, Winchestor, Marlin, even most Ruger triggers, out of the box.

I don't mean to be mean, but if you believe this it's obvious you don't have any experience with quality rifles and most likely don't know the difference. Savage's marketing has worked wonders for them, that's great - it certainly doesn't mean they have the quality that novices believe.

The fact is that the trigger is poorly constructed sheet metal with a cheese weight adjustment system where a spring turns inside a housing. The sheet metal sear was obviously unreliable (if you close a Savage bolt hard enough the sear will let go and decock the rifle) so they installed that gimmick safety to lessen liability. Weight, and most will agree, is the elast important of three adjustments on a trigger: creep, overtravel and weight. Without being able to adjust creep or overtravel it's an entry level rifle.

As far as their barrels go they're nothing special, we've determined that. They're mass produced and are full of step skipping in that effort.

You like them and want to defend them no matter what for whatever reason and try to pass them off as the best - great. They are not high-quality, they're one of the cheapest rifle makers around today with one of the best marketing teams.

skinewmexico
April 23, 2008, 11:02 PM
They are not high-quality, they're one of the cheapest rifle makers around today with one of the best marketing teams.Guess that explains why Remington is offering a rebate to get people to buy.

Let's compare apples to apples. Compare a gunsmith enhanced Remington trigger to an aftermarket Savage trigger. Roughly the same money.

RugerOldArmy
April 23, 2008, 11:35 PM
I like Savages because they shoot well and the barrel-nut and bolt design allow me to do caliber conversions and barrel swaps. I love that I can adjust headspace without a lathe. You can do a lot with these rifles.

I'm in between both sides on the accutrigger. It's a decent trigger in either the target accuutrigger or the regular accutrigger. For a hunting gun the regular accutrigger is a very workable piece of engineering. I left the standard accutrigger on my .270, for now. I have another Savage (LBRP version of the 12 LRPV) that I swap barrels for target and prarie dog shooting and put the SAV-2 Rifle Basix trigger on. I much prefer that to the accutrigger for a target gun. The SSS triggers are also nice Savage aftermarket triggers.

Remington's 40X trigger is a decent, workable target trigger, but it is nowhere near the Jewel trigger quality. The standard BDL triggers weren't that impressive to me.

To me, hands down, the best factory triggers are the CZ single set triggers in the 527(s) and the 550(s) (perhaps the 453, I have a 452 with a Brooks trigger kit in it that is superb, but it is not a single set trigger.). You can adjust these triggers so even the unset mode is a glass-rod-break 2 or 3 lbs (preference) and the set mode is a crisp break at 6-8 Oz. (Adjust screw B first when adjusting these...).

YMMV some folks prefer two-stage, some one stage, some like single or double-set triggers, and some dislike set triggers. Everybody seems to like a Jewel.

I think the biggest hangup most folks have with the accutrigger is not necessarily how it performs, but agree the stamped metal and glock-ish mechanism is a turn off, regardless of how well it functions.

But, hey, that's just my opinion.

Master of Arms
April 23, 2008, 11:45 PM
Equitytrader, you keep saying that I don`t have any experience, you`re very wrong. It`s ok though because I don`t have to explain myself to you. I base my opinion on facts not because I own one. Facts. Marketing campaign????? What does that have to do with anything? You`ve trashed Savage on more than one occasion when it was compared to Remington or Ruger so I`m guessing that you own each of them. If you haven`t noticed, you`re in the minority and might I add by a wide margin. You said that we've determined that about the barrels, who`s we?? Yeah, there`s a few that stated their opinion nicely and moved on. You on the other hand like to consider yourself an expert on the subject and talk down to any that disagree with you. Well here`s some news, you are wrong. How`s that? I don`t do the name calling thing but I must admit that your comments are almost Troll-like so I`d suggest that you stick to your opinion on these matters and leave it at that. Marketing???? Thats funny. I`ve found several matches that were won by a Savage and there are two guys that just won a few nationals with Savages that a viewed on the television. I`ve been searching for them online but that search is cluttered with hundreds of matches and I`m no good with names. It also won Best of the Best in 2006 and 2 different mags. rated it A#1 in 2007. So I beg to differ with your bias opinion. I`m done here so fire away. There are much more interesting topics to read so I`ll move on. Have a nice day.

RugerOldArmy
April 24, 2008, 12:09 AM
I don't mean to be mean, but if you believe this it's obvious you don't have any experience with quality rifles and most likely don't know the difference. Savage's marketing has worked wonders for them, that's great - it certainly doesn't mean they have the quality that novices believe.

The fact is that the trigger is poorly constructed sheet metal with a cheese weight adjustment system where a spring turns inside a housing. The sheet metal sear was obviously unreliable (if you close a Savage bolt hard enough the sear will let go and decock the rifle) so they installed that gimmick safety to lessen liability. Weight, and most will agree, is the elast important of three adjustments on a trigger: creep, overtravel and weight. Without being able to adjust creep or overtravel it's an entry level rifle.

As far as their barrels go they're nothing special, we've determined that. They're mass produced and are full of step skipping in that effort.

You like them and want to defend them no matter what for whatever reason and try to pass them off as the best - great. They are not high-quality, they're one of the cheapest rifle makers around today with one of the best marketing teams.

I disagree with a lot of this.

- The trigger engineering summary pretty flawed and inaccurate. (But yes there is a stamped sear...most would prefer hardened machined forgings, but for the purpose and price point...)

- What has been determined in regard to the barrels? In comparison to what? I'd take a factory Savage barrel over Remington in a heartbeat. Yet neither is a Hart, Shilen, Kreiger, Pac-Nor....

It seems pretty biased. If you look at a Savage and a Remington, it's probably going to take $300-350 to make the Savage a superior shooter...you screw on an aftermarket barrel...in your Garage in 15 minutes.

I look at a Remington, and all I see is raw materials. Perhaps you save the stock. The action is of the greatest value, but with the solid bolt design as opposed to the floating bolt head, you've got to true it, sleeve it, lap the lugs, and probably (for a lot of Remmy's I've seen...) bush the firing pin. Then you need the $250 for a good blank, and a reamer (more $, but nice to have). A gunsmith has to ream the chamber, thread the barrel, headspace etc. For all this, you'd have been better off with a custom action from Stiller/Bat/Stole/Surgeon etc. But you can do it...it'll just cost you more, and you'll need a gunsmith or skills and a lathe.

Been There, done that. I've had money-pit Remingtons. Won't do it again.

Inspector3711
April 24, 2008, 12:20 AM
Remington without hesitation. They have a new trigger design that is sweet. I fired one last weekend at the range and even though my 700 LVSF is adjusted to 3 lbs and has almost all the creep taken out, this new trigger was something else entirely. They say it breaks like glass... It's all true. The guy that let me shoot it is a Savage fanatic but he got a deal on a 700 in .338 magnum. I asked him what he thought and he said the Remington trigger was every bit as good with both actions fresh out of the box in his opinion. It was buttery smooth compared to my 3 year old LVSF. Remington makes a great factory bolt action. Lap the lugs? Have it trued? I dunno about all that. My LVSF will shoot 1/2" 100 yard 5 shot groups and all I've done is adjust the trigger. How accurate do you need to be?

I like the way the Remington looks too... Something about that barrel nut on the Savage and Marlin just doesn't appeal to me. I know the system works and I fully understand why but the look of a rifle without it is more appealing to me personally. I wish Savage had found a way to engineer around the way it looks. Maybe they will in the future.

And hey... Why would you buy a rifle just because of the trigger anyway?

RugerOldArmy
April 24, 2008, 12:35 AM
Lap the lugs? Have it trued? I dunno about all that. My LVSF will shoot 1/2" 100 yard 5 shot groups and all I've done is adjust the trigger. How accurate do you need to be?

How far you want to go is personal taste.

I got into that comparison based on what it seems to take in local BR to shoot .2s and .3s regularly. Factory barrels don't do it. The Savages seem to do it with a barrel swap. The Remmy's all pretty much been through action truing when the barrel needs to get headspaced on the shoulder.

Neither the Savages or the Remmy's seem to shoot as well as the Stolle/Stiller/Bat/Nesika customs.

equitytrader
April 24, 2008, 09:30 AM
I don't own a Savage, Remington or a Ruger. Like I said in one of my first posts, Remington was the lesser or two evils. 'We determined that' was from all the other more experienced people talking about Savage's lack of lapping and wide barrel tolerances.

If you think the Savage is a high end rifle and every bit as good as a Cooper or any other real high end rifle more power to you. You obviously know exactly what you're talking about.

Ash
April 24, 2008, 09:52 AM
The barrel nut is something that does not have to be used. The Savage action is certainly capable of accepting a barrel with a standard shoulder (just as the Mossberg and Marlins can). The converse can also be true, the Remington can be assembled, if you want, with a barrel locked with a nut (though stock inletting would be required).

In the end, Savage must have been onto something in the 1940's when they built the Stevens/Savage 340's for the first time with a barrel nut. Marlin and Mossberg have now copied it, and I would not be surprised to see others do it in the future.

However, it is not mandatory to use the barrel-nut. Of course, the draw in the design is that nut, and I can say it is very easy to change the barrel on a Savage. I changed my 30-06 to a 270 very easily.

Ash

skinewmexico
April 24, 2008, 11:46 AM
So why do people always talk about Savages not being lapped? Is there a factory Remington that comes lapped? Any factory, and I mean mass produced factory, not a Cooper?

equitytrader
April 24, 2008, 11:48 AM
See Zee.

brooks
May 1, 2008, 08:43 AM
I read that the designer of the Savage 110, in the late 1940's had extensive experience with the manufacture of the 50 cal. BMG during WWII and took the barrel nut from that design.

A WWII and Korean War vet recently told me how they burned out the barrels on the .50 BMG shooting "gooks" and he changed and head spaced them in the field. Now you know--THE REST OF THE STORY--about the Savage barrel nut.

Here is a video of Craig Boddington building his Savage 22-250 in Westfield, CT
on the Guns and Ammo Video page---sorry I can't hot link it.

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/video/rifleshooting/index3.html

kenjs1
May 8, 2008, 02:09 PM
I am curious - is it possible button rifles are more susceptible to rough barrels than hammer forged? Curious 'bout that. I prefer Rem's but recommended a Savage to a buddy who loves his. As for Remington not coming out with anything new - would the 700 VTR with triangular, factory compensated barrel be something you see other manufacturers producing? How about lightweight, actually transportable, varmint rifles with fluted barrels? R3 recoil pads? Can't say everything new is better but Remington did come out with the Ebonix....I mean Etronix a few years ago. Like it or leave it the thing was definitely something new. Savage has the accutrigger that is somewhat new but Remingtons have new triggers and so, thank God, do Rugers. What I want is something as beloved as a Winny, built like a CZ ( along with the set trigger), a bolt as smooth as a Tikka that made contact like a Savage, carried (and sorry but have to say 'shot') like a Browning, had mounts and rings like a Ruger, 3- position safety, that looked like a Cooper but cost like a Howa. Whats the problem.?

Auburn1992
May 8, 2008, 05:57 PM
If anyone knows, what would be a good twist rate for a .22-250; and what grain would go best w/ it?

skinewmexico
May 8, 2008, 06:38 PM
would the 700 VTR with triangular, factory compensated barrel be something you see other manufacturers producing? How about lightweight, actually transportable, varmint rifles with fluted barrels? R3 recoil pads?

Guess we'll see when all the benchrest and F-Class guys start shooting triangular barrels in competition. And a factory fluted barrel is not unique. And to prove my point.......the R3 recoil pad is made for Remington by........Limbsaver.

Horsemany
May 8, 2008, 07:27 PM
I will give Remington credit for keeping their product line fresh whether it is good stuff or not. Remington has been passed by many in the performance dept. but they have a history of keeping it fresh. Look at the Sendero's, Etronix, countless heavy barrel configurations. However I've notice in the last 2 years Remington seems to pride itself on allowing no human interaction in the production of their guns. They have dropped several wood models across the board this year including shotguns. They have cheapened whatever few models are checkered, gone to a stamped magazine follower, gone to R3 recoil pads that don't need to be properly fit like a real pad, etc.etc. I saw some SPS's yesterday at my gunshop that had deep machining gouges radially running down the receiver and barrel so deep the bead blasting didn't cover it. I heard they were on the verge of filing chapter 11 last year when they were purchased. This is never good for quality products IMO.

On the other hand look at all the new rifles flourishing on the lower end of the market. Notice all the posts about $300 and $400 rifles. The shooting public has voted with their pocketbooks and apparently the vast majority want CHEAP guns! This trend has been going on for decades but was put in overdrive with the invention of NAFTA IMO. Ask any gunsmith what he thinks the quality was like guns made in the 50's. I've steered off course with this post so I'll get off my soap box now.

kenjs1
May 8, 2008, 11:39 PM
Of course the R3 is made by Sims -but only used by Remington. That was my point - no one else was offering them nor can I find any other mainstream manufacturer website offering a compensated barell on a standard model so I am going to count that as unusual. Looked but found no others with a triangular barrel so again, unusual. My post never addressed benchrest competition just unusual offerings. Not saying better -saying new\different on a somewhat regular basis -like an attractive lightweight varminter with a fluted barrel - not common. I am not rah rah for Remington just unbiased. Plenty of other makes have models and features I like. Now if someone can chime in about button barrels and fouling......

RugerOldArmy
May 9, 2008, 12:00 AM
...What I want is something as beloved as a Winny, built like a CZ ( along with the set trigger), a bolt as smooth as a Tikka that made contact like a Savage, carried (and sorry but have to say 'shot') like a Browning, had mounts and rings like a Ruger, 3- position safety, that looked like a Cooper but cost like a Howa. ....

I dunno if I agree with each of the specifics, but that sure is the way to look at things in my book.

Gets expensive tho! ;)

skinewmexico
May 9, 2008, 10:27 AM
Fouling on a button barrel is going to be a factor of how many barrels the button has done previously. And there are a lot of factory barrels that foul significantly, and shoot lights out. There are a lot of hammer forged barrels that don't foul, and shoot like crap, due to the induced stresses. Hammer forging was invented as a cheap way to mass produce throw-away machine gun barrels, so I have trouble accepting them in good guns. Although some shoot great.

kenjs1
May 10, 2008, 09:22 AM
Here is a good read from Clint McKee and Fulton Armory on the differences between barrel types. It is a short and educational read well worth the two minutes it might take to read it.
http://www.fulton-armory.com/Barrels.htm

dennisH87
July 25, 2008, 11:58 AM
+ 1 on the Savage. Out of the box w/ handloads mine shoots .25 groups at 100 yards

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