[Monkeyleg]

No, this isn't some kind of lewd pickup thread.

We're going to have a fund-raising banquet in July.

We really could use young, attractive females to stand beside the gun tables and help draw in old farts like me, and get them to bid on guns.

The compensation for their time would be a really good dinner (same as everyone else attending will get), and the satisfaction of helping these young ladies be able to carry weapons for self defense.

If anyone can help in this recruiting effort, please email me at dick.baker@wisconsinconcealedcarry.com

[FireBreather01]

Damn, Dick - don't we all:)???

[FireBreather01]

Okay, seriously now - are you looking for over 18? 21?

[Monkeyleg]

Geez, this isn't a thread for pimps. ;)

There's a slight chance--very slight--that we can do raffles legally.

Either way, the more lovely young ladies we have working the gun tables, the better.

18, 21, 31, 41, 50...doesn't matter.

What we don't need is old guys like me. ;)

[Nematocyst]

We really could use young, attractive females to stand beside the gun tables and help draw in old farts like me, and get them to bid on guns.This strikes me as marketing of the worst kind.

"Old fart"?

"Draw in"?

"Get them to bid on guns"?

:cuss:

[Monkeyleg]

Nematocyst-870:

I've been in advertising since 1978. While times have changed, hormones have not. Even for us "old farts."

Sorry, sir, but you're in denial.

Let me give you an example: there's a gun show in northern WI that the WCCA had worked many times before, but the show attendees showed little interest in concealed carry.

Then, one morning, THR member Hunter Rose showed up with his lovely wife. I'll be damned if the number of people coming to our table didn't multiply by at least three or four times.

Plus, Mrs. Hunter Rose was able to talk to other women on their terms, so she drew them in as well.

As for "who let me in to THR," I believe Oleg and the moderators did, many years ago. No complaints so far.

And, if you think my idea about having attractive young ladies at the gun tables is somehow objectionable, well, you wouldn't want to know what else I've been up to with regard to CCW in WI.

[gunsmith]

at the NRA table in Reno gun shows it seems like a place where
friends of the NRA guy hang out. They have a raffle that allways goes to the next gun show.
In SF the NRA table is eagerly attempting to sell tickets for the raffle and it gets raffled right there on the first day.

The title of the thread inites crude answers, I myself am pushing 50 but hardly consider myself an ancient flatuence.

[Monkeyleg]

"Denial is a river in Egypt."

Cute, but only if I hadn't seen that quip 10,000,000 times before.

I'm talking about having some attractive females at the tables.

Not prostitutes. And certainly not young ladies dressed like whores.

I just turned 55 last December. And I can tell you that it makes me feel good when a lovely young lady just smiles at me. She knows--and I know--that it's just a courtesy or, at best, some sort of acknowledgement that I still exist.

I met my wife back in 1968, when she was in her "prime years." And I would have no problem asking the wife I had then to stand in front of a table of guns, knowing that many of the buyers would just want to get a closer look at her.

In fact, I had some scumbag try to abduct my wife at gunpoint, and I didn't have a gun.

But I'm going off-topic.

Talking about whores, our governor has sold out the entire state for his own re-election.

I'm working on putting together a fund-raiser that will bring in as many contributions as possible.

And I know, just like I know my own name, that attractive females will draw more bidders/buyers to the gun tables than will crusty old men like me.

So, please, Nematocyst-870, don't preach values to me. I'm trying to organize a respectable event that will raise money for pro-gun candidates.

How much money will this event net? Maybe $10,000 to $15,000 at best.

Meanwhile, one of Dolye's minions sits down with a single exec from a road-building company or a casino tribe for maybe an hour and--voila!--he walks away with a personal check for $10,000.

Again, back on topic: we're going to have a fund-raising event to help CCW in Wisconsn. If anyone can ask some attractive female volunteers to help out, I'd really appreicate it.

[Jamie C.]

Nem, I'm not even gonna try to argue the fact that Monkeyleg's strategy isn't a good one, or that it won't work...

Fact is, it's VERY good strategy, and will work exactly as he foresees it... And exactly for the reasons he's outlined. This is just how it is.

What IS sad is the fact that it works so damned well...

Every time....

ALWAYS.


Doesn't say much about us humans, does it? :uhoh:

Yup.... it's just sad.... damned biology....

Now... where'd I leave my cane 'n hat?



J.C.

[Nematocyst]

Doesn't say much about us humans, does it? Nope. Sure doesn't.

But what it does say is this: humans are animals.
Just like chimps, monkeys and gibbons, we're animals.

Sex sells.

The trouble for those marketing using sex is,
some of us see through it
(cause we don't need what they're trying to sell with),
we buy guns for different reasons.

We tend to walk away from the {tables, stores, web sites...}
trying to attract us with sex.

For every one gun-interested person I know
who'd be attracted to such a table,
I know three who wouldn't.

(But then, maybe that's just the crowd I run in,
mostly THR members.)

Still, this is early 21st century America.
We sell shaving accessories, burgers, cars,
hair products, beer & football with
"young, attractive females".

Why not guns?

I'm reading with interest.

I'm laughing.

Please keep me posted about sales.

Please post pictures.

<Logging off now to pop more popcorn>

[Monkeyleg]

Moderators, please shut this thread down. Please.

All I'm trying to do is raise as much money as possible to give to pro-gun, pro-CCW candidates. And the amount required this year will be in excess of $60,000.

That kind of money requires hundreds of hours of work, and by many people.

I'd hoped that some of those volunteers would be attractive young women who also wanted to be able to defend themselves.

If someone wants to start another thread about sex or guns or anything else, that's fine.

All I'm doing here is trying to recruit volunteers. The rest of all of the posts are horse-hockey.

[Jamie C.]

Nem, I've got about 25 years worth of old gun magazines (the paper kind) laying around here somewhere that I need to send ya... just so you can look at the ads.

Women and sex have been used to sell everything under the sun, since the beginning of time, I guess.... including guns.

And as for the "High Roaders" here.... I'm bettin' there's not too many that won't admit to being sold something, somewhere, at some time, by an attractive person of the opposite sex, that they wouldn't have bought ( or maybe even have noticed) if not for that person.

Sorry, but there's nothing new under the sun. Nothing at all.

And nobody can really gripe if a person recognizes a perfectly good method... an accepted one.... and uses it themselves. *shrug*

Sorry, but moral "high horses" just pi$$ me off... *shrug*

J.C.

[Nematocyst]

Sorry, but moral "high horses" just pi$$ me off... *shrug*No morality here. I like sex & porn as much as the next guy.

I just question using them to sell guns.

Guns can sell themselves.

Need self defense? Buy a gun.

Need to hunt meat? Buy a gun.

Need to catch a criminal? Buy a gun.

Want to shoot trap/skeet? Buy a gun.

Want sex? Look elsewhere.

There's a logical disconnect between 'sex' and 'gun'.

It's up to you to provide the counterargument.

Where is the connection between 'young, attractive female' and 'gun'?

And I don't ride horses, let alone "high" horses. I prefer to walk.

And, where is it written that one may not express an opposing opinion about a thread on THR?

[Jamie C.]

There's a logical disconnect between 'sex' and 'gun'.

Really?

I could spend quite a while debating this, but I won't. I'll just say this:

Any weapon... brain, tooth, claw, knife, spear...gun... equates to a means to defend one's self and one's MATE and OFFSPRING, and relates directly to said group's survival chances.

Now,I'm told by different folks involved in biology and psychology that the above fact has more than a bit of a bearing on mate-choosing sometimes.... and sex.

So... no link? Hardly.
Might not be what it once was, but there's still very much a connection there.

Anyway... you're more than welcome to your opinion.
My opinion, though, is you're just being silly. *shrug*

Or am I not welcome to express THAT? :eek:

Anyway, I'm done. Gonna go back to the TV now... Watch 'em sell everything with sex... just like they've been doing ever since the first TV commercials... even though we all know that crap never works...

Don't we? ;)


J.C.

[Barbara]

What kind of idiotic idea is this?

You all wonder why more women don't get involved? This is exactly why. I had been hoping to make the drive to Wisconsin myself to support this, but there's no way in hell I'd do it now. And I sure don't want to know what else you're doing up there if this isn't sleezy enough.

There are issues other than gun rights that are important to me, and using women is one of them.

Good lord. I thought I couldn't be appalled anymore, and yet, here I am. And very disappointed, to be honest.

[Stiletto Null]

Given a bunch of tables with roughly similar wares, I'll probably go to the one with hawt chix first, if only to gawk at said hawt chix. :)

But seriously, nematocyst, chill out. Sex sells—and it's not like he was suggesting anything like E3 booth babes or the swimsuit models which always seem to accompany show cars. And it is a very sad truth of the gun world that women usually get all kinds of bull**** from (male) salespeople because they're "girls" and "can't handle real guns".

[Barbara]

Using them as props is surely going to change that.

[Stiletto Null]

And what if he actually has them working the tables, instead of just standing around flashing teeth at people? If he was just looking for random women, he could hire random models from a local agency; instead, he's checking on THR.

[Barbara]

What difference does that make? He's looking for someone to use their body for his goals. Makes it sleezy, in my never very humble opinion, regardless of whether I agree with the goal or not.

Not like he posted "hey, THR folks, I need help working a table." I'd have been all over that. But that sure isn't what's being looked for, is it?

[Stiletto Null]

That's capitalism.

If nothing but the egos of random people on the Internet gets hurt, then the ends justify the means, IMO. Are women being used to draw in customers because they're women? Yes. Is he spouting some PC nonsense to hide it? No. Is he looking for women who might actually have a clue and who might actually be useful at a gun sale? Yes.

[joab]

First off
Thanks to MonkeyLeg for the work he is doing

Second
Guys like girls , for the most part.
A female , any female, at a booth will draw more people.

Females are typically better with social situations than males are.
They are easier to talk to and there's something intriguing to a gunny about a woman who knows guns.

Would there be this kind of backlash if he had asked for some buff guys to entice the Pink Pistol crowd?

[Barbara]

Capitalism gives me the ability to never buy what he's selling. And tell 13 of my friends why I'm dissatisfied with the product.

[Barbara]

Well, dude, I'm a woman, and a gun rights activist, and someone who spends considerable time and money on the cause, and I'm telling you, for me, it's a deal-breaker. So, pretty much whatever. He can do whatever he's legally entitled to do and I wouldn't try to stop him. But I'm not going to be supportive of it.

But I'm going to tell you alll, once again, that if you want to get more women involved in guns and gun rights, you'd better wise up. I myself get so frustrated with the comments here that I leave for months at a time..and I'm probably as true a believer as anyone. Look around? There are maybe a dozen women who post here regularly. Do you honestly think the ratio of gun owners in the US is 3000:12? Or do you think they don't participate because of stuff like this, and just go away and privately own a gun for self-defense but don't take it any further because its not worth the headaches?

Just because you "know women who don't mind" doesn't mean that most of us don't care. And I suspect they only "don't mind" because they haven't given it much serious thought.

[Barbara]

You know what's funny? I bet at least 50 of you are suspecting I'm cranky about it because I'm fat and ugly. :neener:

[Stiletto Null]

Nah, but you are coming off as a bit of the "kill all men, women are being oppressed" type. :scrutiny:

[xring44]

I applaud your efforts to raise money for a worthwhile cause, I believe most warm blooded American males can see the benefit of haveing ladies at the booth, at my age, 62, I assure you that you are on the right track, nothing like the warm smile of a lovely lady to encourage sales. I, like yourself understand that a warm smile is only reconigition of your existance, but I find that I appreciate that more as I age. Women are such beautiful creatures I enjoy being around one when possible. Good luck on your project. x

[Barbara]

Nah, but you are coming off as a bit of the "kill all men, women are being oppressed" type.

Wow. That really hurts. I'll immediately change my entire opinion of the situation.

:D

[Stiletto Null]

Glad to be of service. :p

[Barbara]

His marketing strategy has already cost him a customer (namely, me..a woman.) It's fine and dandy that "warm blooded american males" might find that strategy effective, but you sure aren't going to branch out from that customer base with it. And last I looked, more than 50% of the people who bothered to get off their duffs and vote were women.

[xring44]

I'm betting that 50% + of the female species are not opposed to men who cast an appreciative eye their way.

[Barbara]

Well, I'd figure its closer to 10% who wouldn't like it (maybe 15% if you figured 10% are gay and 5% don't like either gender.) I'd say men would have about the same rate of liking to be found attractive.

But there's a difference between being appreciated and being used as a selling prop, wouldn't you say?

[Rembrandt]

Barbara, to some extent I see what you're saying, but there is another side to this. Perhaps in our manly crude way it hasn't come across as intended.

We generally raise about $50,000-$70,000 for an evening banquet, that's about 450-500 people. Our goal is to have each attendee contribute about $150.

We have a sorority that helps out with our Pheasants Forever banquet each year.....they dress in evening gowns and are affectionately referred to as "Pheasant Chicks". Fact is most hunting and shooting events of this nature are attended by a majority of guys. For whatever reason, guys are competitive and like to "out-do" each other for bragging rights (like spending money)....no better way to play on this than have the women coaxing them on. Guys get all stupid and begin showing off when a lady is involved.

Like it or not, women have an ability for getting men to part with money (and I'm not referring to the oldest profession)....whether it's a new kitchen, Christmas shopping, or something for the kids. A mans "Achiles heel" is a smile and a gentle nudge.

[Barbara]

(if it helps you get over the ulcer you're getting from this, I'm just as rabid about gun rights. :) )

[1911Tuner]

Well...Watchin' this one and figured to steer clear of it, but it looks like it's goin' south pretty fast....so I'll comment and let the smoke roll on.

I understand Barbara's position here...but it's a fact that pretty girls at a sales booth draw crowds of men. Sad...but there it is. Men will make total idiots of themselves around a pretty girl. We've all done it at one time or another. If the product being offered is targeted mainly at men, salting the area with attractive ladies is a marketing strategy and nothing more. Rather like suggesting that we all need "Brand X" mouthwash or "Brand Y" deodorant lest people will choke and run screaming from us as soon as we enter the room.

That said...I've reached the point in my life that I'll specifically avoid sales booths that hire models to draw the crowds and hawk their wares...and on the occasions that I do stop by for a look, I'm careful not to say or do anything to give the impression that I think I'm gonna "Pick up a Chick"
or anything of that nature. Most of the ladies who do this sort of thing are
courteous but disconnected because they know why they're there...and they know how to ignore and/or sidestep the veiled suggestions and lewd remarks that they often have to endure. I guess I just don't want to be categorized
as "Oh GAWD! Another one of THOSE!" ...with the snickering and eyerolling that goes on after I've left. Much rather have them say: "Well, he was a nice guy. Sorta reminds me of my dad!":D

As long as there are things to sell, there will be people who fit into the category of what the seller wants to appeal to. Cute babies sell diapers,
so they "exploit" babies in the ads. Warm puppies sell Purina Puppy Chow...
Stereotypical cowboy types sell chewing tobacco...and there will always be people willing to exploit those things...and people willing to BE exploited for a paycheck. (That's what models DO, after all. It's just another assignment.) And pretty women sell many things...From lingerie' to cars to gas grills to free checking down at the bank.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled flame war...;)

[Barbara]

Why would you call this a flame war? Because I'm expresssing an opinion out of the ordinary? Or because people disagree with me? It doesn't bother me in the least and I don't think anyone, at least this morning, has attacked anyone else. We've disagreed. It's a discussion. We're not the Borg.

I dunno about you, but I'd say we rarely learn from people exactly like us, eh?

But I'm sticking to my guns here. You may find using T&A sells something to men, but you're ignoring a huge group of consumers and losing sales by doing so.

[Barbara]

Let's put it this way..of all of the people on this thread, how many would actually have attended this thing and spent time and money on it (raises hand.)

I live one state away and drive to southern Wisconsin regularly anyway (my son is stationed at Great Lakes Naval base) and this by far wouldn't be the longest drive I've ever made for gun rights (that would be DC, alone with a child, several years ago.)

Now, due to the prospects of seeing some "young, attractive females", how many of you will now be attending?

Hopefully, at least one, because the marketing strategy cost him one customer already and he needs to make up for it.

[xring44]

I must say that as we men mature, we see beauty as simply that, beauty.
Those of us who can appreciate a womans beauty/charms without thinking "shes hot for me' have cleared a important hurdle in life. SHE AIN'T HOT FOR ME!! In this case, I feel sure that the intention is not to "belittle women, but instead to allow a mans deepest weakness to surface. All win in this situtation;)

[Barbara]

On the other hand, I live in a world where people are appalled that I have grey hair at 37.

Newsflash: Women of 37 have grey hair. Most of us hide it because its expected, and grey hair is considered unattractive, and goodness knows, that's what we're here for!

Then again, I've never been known to do what's expected. :)

People don't expect when I show up in a suit and driving a minivan that I'm going to be carrying a gun, either. :)

[ID_shooting]

WOW, OH WOW!

Nematocyst-870:

"This strikes me as marketing of the worst kind.

...Who let you into THR?"

"Let me tell you what most 'senior' THR members
- those with more than 1000 posts -
would "have a problem with"."

"When THR succumbs to that kind of rhetoric,
then, it's time for me to find a different island."

DUDE! You ever take the time to view some of Oleg's work?

www.a-human-right.com

If the ladies in his photos all looked like Rossane Bar or Sen. Finestien would we bother to look at them?

Barbara, I appriciate your opinion, and you right to express it; however, it is a simple fact that he will get many more customer to his table with one or two attractive ladies and not. You certianly do not like it, but you are grossly in the minority on this one. Not meaning to be harsh, but it is reality.

Does you family reload, do you use Dillon products? Have you seen thier advertising literature?

Monkeyleg ,my wife said she would love to come attend your table, but we are too far away to even make it feasable.

[1911Tuner]

Quote:

>Why would you call this a flame war? Because I'm expresssing an opinion out of the ordinary? Or because people disagree with me?<
*********************

That was a joke, Barbara. :) Partly to inject a little humor and and partly because it's beginning to heat up and I wanted to try to cool things down a bit.

While you may view this request as shameless exploitation or even as a personal affront...your sister or daughter or best friend may well see it as an opportunity to pick up some cash for standin' around makin' small talk, and
possibly some exposure for another merchant who may want to hire them for another show. It's not like the guy is asking them to "service the customers in the back room." It's a modeling assignment and nothing more. >Repeat<...That's what models do...every day...and, it's a matter of free will. If you don't want the job, don't apply. If you don't want to patronize the merchant because of his advertising/selling strategy...don't buy from him.

[jobu07]

your sister or daughter or best friend may well see it as an opportunity to pick up some cash for standin' around makin' small talk

Actually, if I read the initial poster's thoughts correctly, these people are volunteering and therefore not going to be paid a dime. They are volunteering because they are hardcore supporters of the 2A and CCW as a whole. By asking for females I don't think he was shutting the door to men all together either.

Part of marketing is selling a product as hip and trendy. For that reason alone I imagine he wants young ladies there but probably young men too. By having a number of youth present, along with a good mixing of seasoned vets, you paint a strong image about CCW and the 2A.

In times that I have volunteered in the past, or gone about recruiting people for a college cause that I participated in we would undoubtedly bring about a couple of the female members of the group, along with the many more men that were interested in helping anyway. They didn't come along to be shown off for the young men around campus that may have been interested. They came around because they wanted to be part of something fun and something that they are helping make a difference at.

For some reason republican, pro-gun, or conservative activist causes have more male members than female's anyway. I don't think the women are going to be flaunted as sex or T&A. I think the original poster's intent is to have a bunch of young folks to offset the older crowd. I'm sure everyone will be dressed in comfortable clothing that does nothing to flaunt sexuality.

As someone pointed out, the owner of this forum, Oleg Volk, uses almost exclusively female models for his posters. If my memory serves me correctly, there is also a pro-2A activist group out there called "The Second Amendment Sisters" which, by the sounds of it, is exclusive to females. I'm sure some of them bring their teenage sons or young male friends to events when they table so as to help increase traffic.

He probably came to THR asking for volunteers first because he knew that if someone is on THR, they are more likely to be enthusiastic about the 2A and CCW in general. While i'm not a female, as a 20 something young man i'd volunteer to help you out in a heartbeat if not for the 2000 mile drive I would incurr.

Good luck Wisconsin! You guys have got a hard fight on your hands. Gest wishes.

[Barbara]

Well, for me, its doubly frustrating, because I make a concerted effort to get women more involved. And granted, I'm slightly more aggressive than the average person, so when you push my buttons, I'm going to express my opinion.

There are pictures of me on Oleg's site, although presumably its there because of my work for gun rights and not to someone can look at my chest.
That's what I'd prefer to be recognized for..deeds, not appearance. Whether or not anyone finds me attractive would be a personal thing, not for public display.

So, the question stands: How many people has he gained by having hawt chicks and how many has he lost?

Lost: Me and whoever would have come with me, which would have been at least one person, and probably more. I've got enough gun stuff on my plate now to keep me busy until the election anyway.

Gained: Speak up. If you feel that strongly about it, vote with your wallet.

For those of you curious:
http://www.olegvolk.net/gallery/various/michigan/brian_barb.jpg.html

[Z28]

Nem, I bet you would look too! It's ok.:neener:

[pax]

Everyone who has ever read even a few posts of mine knows that I pretty well agree with Barbara about using sex as a marketing tool.

But Monkeyleg, the original thread starter, made it very clear that he wasn't talking about that.

He was talking about having a balanced sales force, consisting of both sexes and of some age other than "old fart."

pax

[1911Tuner]

jobu...Was addressing the modeling question in general. Whether volunteers or hired for pay...it's the same game. Using a specific skill or attribute to sell a product or an idea.

Barbara...

Please don't assume that it's all about T&A for everyone. Many of us can carry on lengthy conversations with young, attractive ladies in tight shorts and tank tops without glancing below mouth level. (Why mouth, you ask?
Simple. My hearing is pretty well shot in the upper registers and with certain female voice ranges, reading lips helps me. Besides...an open, friendly smile and bright, clear eyes get my attention every time.)

[pax]

All right. I erased the flame war that started this thread, and am re-opening it because I think it needs to be discussed.

Barbara, you know I usually agree with you on this kind of thing, but please re-read all of Monkeyleg's posts. I think you are fighting a straw woman here. ;)

pax

[princesscrash01]

Barbara, Sorry but I am going to have to politely disagree with you. I have guys tell me all of the time that they think it is hot that I am interested in guns and shooting. Do I mind that? No not at all. I do not shoot to impress men, I shoot because I enjoy it. I am sure there are guys that may roll their eyes when they see a girl come to the range too. Monkeyleg is just trying to raise as much money as possible for a good cause. Instead of inviting women and encouraging them to come out, he could say that he does not want females there at all. At least he is wanting females there IMO. I know most girls intially would feel more comfortable talking to a girl about guns, purely for the fact that they do not want to look stupid in front of guys. He is not asking them to be in skimpy bathing suits and such like you see in car magazines. He realizes that men are men, and nothing is going to change that, sad as it may be. Women can be the same way though. Seeing as how a majority of shooters are men (at least down here. There were 40 people at the range yesterday and I was the only female) he is marketing to the largest crowd. Seems smart to me. We all know that "sex sells". I work my butt off in the gym everyday, I surely hope that guys would appreciate the results of my efforts.

[Geno]

Let’s have a professional level conversation on the issue, and the merits and detriments. Let us not slide into arguing and stereotyping.

I submit the following thesis statement(argument): “Sex sells, not quality”. This thesis statement applies equally to men and to women. To support this thesis statement, I would direct the readers (both genders) to check the inside cover of the June, 2006 issue of "Combat Handguns". Therein, Glock touts a slinky, tight, black dress clad female for the men, and a handsome devil, tight-shaved and dappered up in a tux for the ladies.

This pictoral display is intended to sell Glocks? Sex does sell, unfortunate as it may be. Even a company with the "credentials and qualities" as Glock for some senseless reason needs to push sex instead of steel. Every time I pick up my Glock 17s, I have never had sex on my mind. I have Glock and shooting, or concealed carry in mind.

Yes, I know that the "models" are not models. They are highly-skilled, world-class shootists. But, in that case display them only in that capacity. Sure, there are pics of them doing that too--but the BIG pick, the eye-catcher is the "sexy" display.

In closing, and regarding the need to previously close the thread to clean it then reopen it, I do not blame the moderator. I blame the unprofessional participants who fail to rise to the High Road standards to which we all agreed. I which more people would take the high road.

Doc2005

[Old Fuff]

Monkeyleg's well known reputation on this forum should be enough to make it clear that he isn't interested in sleeze.

And there is nothing wrong with young ladies being attractive. He did say "ladies" after all. A lady can be attractive and not seen in a context of selling sex. I suspect that all of us know ladies that we consider to be attractive, and yet don't consider sex to be any part of the picture.

It is a gross insult to real ladies to suggest that they can't be attractive, and out selling themselves at the same time.

All Dick is trying to do is raise enough money so that CCW will have a chance of passage in Wisconsin - nothing more. I consider some of the references that have been made on this thread to be an uncalled for insult directed toward him. Some people need to get the issue back into the intended context, and that had nothing to do with sex.

[Barbara]

Then I would submit that Dick should not have used a title like "young, attractive females" if what he wanted was people knowledgeable about firearms. Backsliding about his intent later doesn't change anything. The fact is, he's looking for chicks to sell guns for him.

Being the one woman out of 50 on the range and having men think you're hot, is not what I'd consider a good thing. I'd rather see a 50-50 mix and not care much what anyone looks like, but rather how good a shot they are or if they have an interesting firearm. It's not match.com, its a gun range. There's a woman on one board I post with the sig line "A little woman in a big old world of men." Gag me.

Maybe if women could go to a range and not have to worry whether they look hawt or not, or better yet, not go with the expectation (or hope) that someone might find them hawt, you might not be the only woman out there.

As it is, I rarely go to public ranges because of that crap, and when I do, I'm wearing about 3 layers of clothes. I'm sure that's a big reason why you don't see more women there. We can't be left alone to actually do what we're there for, goodness knows.

Like I said, have your gathering with women as selling tools, rather than consumers. But do it without me, and don't expect my support. I dont care how good the cause is..there are plenty of good causes out there, and Wisconsin is merely a tourist destination to me. I'd rather spend my time and money in my own state, improving our own laws, and where women do a huge amount of the work on gun rights anyway, without being posed.

As far as I'm concerned, this is a dead horse on my part. I've said what I have to say, and I'll act on it as I see fit.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have some sewing to do.

[Barbara]

he could say that he does not want females there at all. At least he is wanting females there IMO.

Please, read that about a dozen times. At *least* he wants females there? Well, of course he does! They gave us the vote finally, remember?

The day I become grateful for the opportunity to do something like that is the day I hope I'm drug out back and shot because my brains will have been fried and any sense of dignity I've ever had will have been long gone.

Anyway. I really do have the sewing to do. Have fun!

[jdkelly]

This thread is funny, it really is.

On one hand you have Monekeyleg asking about getting attractive females to lure in prospective customers, a long used ploy in the gun industry (and every other industry).

On the other hand you have Nematocyst finding this to be base behavior, and contrary to the evidence of many decades he believes that sex doesn’t sell in the gun industry.

And on the third hand (hmmm) we have Barbra who feels it’s an idiot idea, exploits (attractive) women and will alienate the female base, even though I’d bet that attractive women are used to sell almost everything she owns.

I ‘d like to point to Mike Dillon of Dillon Precision, a very strong pro 2nd Amendment advocate who’s know for his “If you don’t vote like a gun owner you s*ck” quote, and his monthly reloading catalog as evidence that sex, guns and the 2nd Amendment do mix.

http://dillonprecision.com/default.cfm?

Mr. Dillon has a large following of the very best shooters (male and female) in today’s actions sports.

Just food for thought.


Respectfully,

jdkelly

[1911Tuner]

Old Fuff spoke:

>Monkeyleg's well known reputation on this forum should be enough to make it clear that he isn't interested in sleeze.<
************************

Agreed. Never seen that from him...ever.

>>And there is nothing wrong with young ladies being attractive. He did say "ladies" after all. A lady can be attractive and not seen in a context of selling sex. I suspect that all of us know ladies that we consider to be attractive, and yet don't consider sex to be any part of the picture.<<
******************

Agree again. It's probably an insult to the ladies to suggest that all they've got to sell WITH is T&A. Public relations, personality and being able to converse with people are also important aspects of the job.

I mean, if you've got a Ford pickup truck exhibit at a new auto show, who ya gonna stand out there with the trucks...Shania Twain or Larry the Cable Guy?:D

Actually, I'm more partial to Debra Winger and Mary McDonnell. (I tell ya, I don't care who ya are...Them there's two purty wimmin!:cool: )

[jdkelly]

sorry, double post:(

[pax]

jdkelly ~

I submit that there is a huge difference between using attractive human beings -- of both sexes -- to attract other human beings, and using T&A to attract males.

Since males are the primary buying demographic for guns, it is unsurprising that many sellers (such as Dillon) have pandered to males using as much T&A as anyone in the mainstream would stomach. IMO, it's very disrespectful to your own wives and daughters to think of women as merely eye candy to drool over (Do you want your daughter treated that way?), but there's no denying that T&A advertising works very well when the targeted audience is male.

But ...

The primary RKBA voting demographic is nothing but male old pharts ... some of whom will die of heart attacks this year, and then who's going to replace their votes? If we want to retain our rights, we have to lure young and older women and young guys to join our side of the vote. Have to.

Females need to be considered part of our primary audience.

I submit that T&A salesmanship is not the way to attract the other 50% of the voting public to our cause. T&A salesmanship repulses many women, or at least doesn't attract them. So it's self defeating -- especially at a political fundraiser.

But I really don't think that's what Monkeyleg had in mind!

pax

[Barbara]

To be fair, I respect the heck out of Dick's efforts in Wisconsin and know how hard he works on the cause. In this case, I disagree with him, strongly, but over all, he does a thankless job and deserves a lot of credit.

[owen]

Not only do men buy more from pretty women, women do too.

I used to work on Friends of the NRA dinners in New England. One of the old codgers on the comittee was a stats nut. We were paying our hired help (usually Bud Girls from the local distibutor) a flat hourly rate and a portion of the proceeds from the tickets they sold. We also had a bunch of people from the committee selling tickets, some of them women, and some of them guys.

We ended up having about a 50/50 male/female mix.

This was also a fairly upscale event. Ties and sportcoats was the recomended attire, and most people wore suits. We highly encouraged men to bring their wives/girlfriends, because at previous dinners, we had discovered that accompanied men spent, on average, 2x the money on auctions. (I think it's because the boss was right there, so they could get permission)

Anyways, codger was curious. We set it up so women got tickets from one series of numbers, and men got tickets from another series. The tickets were the same color, just different sets of numbers.

About 40% of the people at the dinner were women. They bought 85% of their tickets from the Bud Girls.

[Jeff Timm]

I wondered about "exploitation" when an FOP organization pushed membership flyers at a gun show employing a waitress from Hooters (TM)

Now this is Florida, where legal secretaries were less to work than the above referenced waitresses, and many of the women in attendance wore similar outfits (some of whom should not have.)

But, it worked and got a much better response than ever. I strongly suspect we do not live in an ideal world.

I've also noted a local heavy sales gunshop which employs three or four attractive young women (I've been told two are daughters of the owner) to do the most obnoxious part of firearm sales, the background check and paperwork. When they shop is busy men and women customers are much more tolerant of delays than they are of males doing the same job at another high volume shop in the area.

Could it be women are better at interpersonal relationships?

Geoff
Who figures if it works, don't knock it. :D

[Barbara]

So we should make no efforts to change anything, just because its effective? The ends justify the means?

Not for me.

Heck, slaves were a cost effective way of gathering sugar cane. Burning heretics was a good way to keep the money rolling into the medievel church. Forcefully infecting institutionalized people with germs was a good way to study illness.

Etc.

[Barbara]

Are you guys really saying I'm better at interpersonal relationships?

Awww.. :)


I don't disagree though..women are traditionally raised to be more caring about others and better able to make them feel comfortable. I don't necessarily agree that's a good thing, but it is a fact that women (some of us!) are better at smoothing over difficult situations?

Me? I'm a battle axe, and I'm fine with that. I live life on my own terms, you know? :)

[sm]

.

[pax]

Barbara ~

Did you really just ethically equate a free employment contract, freely entered into, with slavery and coerced participation in medical experiments?

Surely not. :scrutiny:

pax

[Barbara]

If you mean, did I equate things that were accepted once as a matter of course, but are now recognized as completely unethical? Then yes, I did. Unashamedly.

But obviously, yes, its a contract made of free will, where the others weren't. What bothers me is that anyone would be willing to make that contract (and then say they'd be grateful for being able to attend!) And to me, the ends does not justify the means. For each of those things, there were advantages. Did the advantages outweigh the ethics? Nope.

[Rembrandt]

After 35 years of marriage I still fail to understand how female logic works.....one minute they doll themselves up to get our attention, next minute complain about being used as eye candy......(excuse me while I hunker down for incoming)

[Big Gay Al]

By the way, for those of you who have not yet met Barbara, she's not fat, nor is she ugly.

She can hawk wares at my table any day. (ducking) :D

[Barbara]

Cripes, Al..next thing you know, you'll be telling them I'm actually fairly easy to get along with and that I like men. :)

Although I dont' think fat and/or ugly are that big a deal. I'd prefer capable and accomplished to cute. God made me who I am, and thankfully, he gave me some useful gifts like ambition and the ability to stand up for what I believe.

There's no such thing as female logic. We're not the Borg. Some women like attention. Some don't. Some men like attention. Some don't.

(heh..actually, I do like men. And not wimpy men. I don't like wimpy people in general, which is failing on my part and one I'm trying to get over.)

['Card]

Geez, talk about over-complicating an issue...

Booth babes work. If they didn't, why on earth would virtually ever significant company at virtually every significant event use them? Sometimes they're in skimpy outifits and designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Sometimes they're professionally attired and intended to appeal to a different audience. Either way. Doesn't matter. They get results, with both female and male customers, or they wouldn't be hired for the job.

As for whether or not it's demeaning? Why don't we leave that question to the women who would actually be doing it? I'm fairly certain that if they felt they were being used or objectified beyond what they're comfortable with, then they'd be unwilling to participate.

Or are we going to dismiss their opinion entirely just because they're girls?

[Barbara]

I bet there were colonists who didn't mind that pesky extra stamp tax, too. :)

[thumper723]

Jeff,

Were you referring to the last show at the Shriners Auditorium, and Shooters?

(FWIW, my wife saw $540 from SHOOTERS on the bank statement, and demanded to know why I spent that much at HOOTERS. She later laughed about having a "blonde moment")

As far as having decent looking women (not models, not ugly, you know, normal women) at a table, I have no problem with it. When I was at the last gun show, my wife was afraid to ask questions to the men working the tables, but had no problem talking to the women vendors.

I think Monkeyleg is asking a perfectly rational question, and his reasoning is sound. The benefits are two fold, as women will be less afraid to come up to and talk to other women, and men would rather talk to a woman than another balding guy.

[thumper723]

Oh yeah, I've already donned an Aramid Flight Suit, flame on :neener:

[4v50 Gary]

Thumper723 said: (FWIW, my wife saw $540 from SHOOTERS on the bank statement, and demanded to know why I spent that much at HOOTERS. She later laughed about having a "blonde moment")

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Thank you for sharing that with us. Like yourself, I can also drop five bills on guns or accessories but not on any burger joint no matter how pretty the waitresses are.

[Tiny in Ohio]

I am sorry to write this, but I find Barbara's posts to this topic as despicable. I am new to this forum, but not to guns or the 2A. My father and grandfather owned a gun bluing business when I was a child, and I have been around guns ALL my life. At the same time I have an MBA, so I am an educated male. Enough about me.

Barbara comes to this post and starts the female tirade about using women as a means of attracting males to an event, and how she loathes the thought. Which is fine, and I must say laudable. But her posts over the last page have fallen right back to the female disposition, "I have sewing to do". Then she starts playing the female light hearted individual, joking with other posters. Opposite ends of the spectrum.

Please take a stance and stick with it, on one hand you are the staunch female rights activist, then you fall back to the common airhead misconception. Pick a stance and stick with it, it will definately make you more appreciated, as well as lending credibility to your issues.

[1911Tuner]

Howdy Tiny, and welcome in.

I think Barbara's switch probably came after she cooled a little rather than
as a fence-straddle deal. Many topics here are hot buttons for some...and most lighten up after havin' their say.

The way I see this one is this:

Monkeyleg asked for volunteers to "man" an exhibition booth. He asked for a specific gender and named a specific criteria, as is his right. After all...it's HIS
idea and HIS show....and his ideas as to how he wanted to present it. He doesn't have to provide a balanced representation of all segments of the population, since it's a private arrangement. The choice lies with the potential recruits. They can respond or not. Ain't that America?:cool:

The thread then started to head due south, because it punched a few of aforementioned hot buttons. In other words...a veer off-topic at best, and a straight-up hijack at worst. This is often a reason that a moderator will enter the fray with a (hopefully) rational/calming comment or two as a means of letting the participants know that it's drawn attention and warning signals have been noted...and that it could reach critical mass momentarily. Since these things sometimes degrade into personal attacks and/or insults...it's a means of avoiding having to warn or ban anyone for a cardinal rule violation.
It usually works, and allows cooler heads to prevail. I'm hesitant to ban, and would rather take a poke with a sharp stick than ban a contributing member who slips once and lets a topic or another member get under his/her skin...and hit REPLY before he/she has had time to think it through. Once it's said, it can't be un-said.

Cheers all!

[jdkelly]

I submit that there is a huge difference between using attractive human beings -- of both sexes -- to attract other human beings, and using T&A to attract males.
No not really, if it’s okay to use attractive human beings –of both sexes- then it’s okay to use only one as needed.

Since males are the primary buying demographic for guns, it is unsurprising that many sellers (such as Dillon) have pandered to males using as much T&A as anyone in the mainstream would stomach. IMO, it's very disrespectful to your own wives and daughters to think of women as merely eye candy to drool over (Do you want your daughter treated that way?), but there's no denying that T&A advertising works very well when the targeted audience is male.
What’s the difference if one of Dillon’s models is holding a gun product or perfume? None! T&A works very well when the targeted audience is female also, most things sold to women are sold to them by beautiful young women. Men have no monopoly on being taken in by beauty and sex. As for how I’d want a wife (not married) or daughter to be treated would depend on what THEY wanted, I’m for women’s choice and I don’t like others making that choice for them (either male of female). I have no desire to control what any female member of my family chooses to do, I trust them.


But ...
The primary RKBA voting demographic is nothing but male old pharts ... some of whom will die of heart attacks this year, and then who's going to replace their votes?
Some would think that is very cold and insulting, but as an old male phart who could die of a heart attack this year personally I don’t mind as I don’t need you pander to me.
If we want to retain our rights, we have to lure young and older women and young guys to join our side of the vote. Have to.
Females need to be considered part of our primary audience.
Yes they should and are.

I submit that T&A salesmanship is not the way to attract the other 50% of the voting public to our cause. T&A salesmanship repulses many women, or at least doesn't attract them. So it's self defeating -- especially at a political fundraiser.
As stated above much of what women buy is marketed by T&A, pretty young things, an image call it what you will. If a person is put off because a pretty woman is at a table to increase sales then that’s her problem.


But I really don't think that's what Monkeyleg had in mind!

No neither do I but I don’t have a problem with that.


Respectfully,

jkelly

[SavageEMT]

Am I the only one that notices "attractive young women" are used to sell products to men AND women?

I'm not insulted by a pretty face and a matching rifle, so long as she knows what she's doing with it!

[mnrivrat]

My Thanks go out to the moderators for letting this continue. It is by far one of the most entertaining threads I have had the pleasure of waking up too on Sunday morning !

Colt may have made all men equal, but it is sex that is the great equalizer when it comes to men and women . That's my opinion ! ( actualy I think the male is at a disadvantage most of the time ) And that's what I believe to be fact .

Some have express a sadness that sex is a part of market stradigy . I don't understand why there would be any sadness involved ? It is a natural part of the human species , and our thinking .

If women weren't viewed as sex objects by men then this would be a whole lot different world . (and not particularly good different for the female side of the species) . Hell , it's how most of us got to the planet isn't it ?

I'm sure that the young attractive females behind the tables will help a lot more than hinder the efforts - and those that take offense to the stradigy ? Well , I respecfully disagree with you.

It's not a matter of disrespect to women in my opinion - it is simply a matter of exploiting human nature.

[Strings]

Since I (and my wife) were mentioned in the first post, I figured I should chime in...

>There are issues other than gun rights that are important to me, and using women is one of them.<

Funny... Spoon has never felt "used" by helping at a gunshow. And she's never dressed any differently than she does for work: she works retail, which is fairly close to what Dick's asking people to do here.

Do I like that sex and appearance is so important in marketing? No, I don't. However, I think I'd rather work on that issue AFTER my wife and I I have ability to defend ourselves effectively, and not the other way around...

[sm]

.

[xring44]

Fewer things are more pleaseing to the eye than a finely crafted weapon and a beautiful woman, they go well together. Apple pie and Icecream!

[4v50 Gary]

There's a difference between a tastefully attired female who can engage in intelligent discourse about a product and a mindless bikini clad cute one. The former will not only attract attention and respect, the latter typecasts the buyers as sex driven neantherdals. That's just my opinion. I'll have to ask a social anthropologist that I'm acquainted with for a more educated opinion.

[NineseveN]

Nevermind, folks are just too darn wrapped up in their own dogma to understand some things. Carry on.

[mordechaianiliewicz]

I have to admit, I agree with Monkeyleg and Stilletto here. Barb, chill out.

Fact: There are more male shooters than female shooters.

Fact: A kind smile from a young woman makes men more pliable.

Fact: A kind smile from a young man makes women more pliable.

Hey, straight folks respond to young attractive members of the opposite sex by paying attention to what they are talking about. If the young person is stupid, they stop paying attention, but in the beginning, they have the attention of the older person.

If this were something female predominated, I might want young hunks, but the shooting community, especially at a gun show is 90% male. Therefore, you cater to male interests. And right at the top of male interests are attractive young women.

You could borrow my girlfriend if it weren't for our work schedules. Chjo well...

[gudel]

You should post this in WI craigslist. I'm sure you'll find someone.

[Big Gay Al]

The way I see it is this. If you're going to get a couple of attractive females to draw the people in, you should have a couple of attractive males too. Not only will they draw in the female crowd, but you might get more men in tool ;)

All's fair in love, war and advertising. In fact, in advertising EVERYTHING is up for grabs!

[NineseveN]

On second thought:

Look, attractive females sell. That's a fact of life. But let's not water the topic down by pretending that this is an issue of male dominance or sex-crazed neadrethalism; it's not.

Marketing uses certain aspects of our human nature, things that stem from deeply ingrained needs or desires to make a product or service more appealing.

Mainstream young women aren't likely to be too keen on striking up a conversation with a guy in a John Deer hat and overalls who's over 50, nor the guy in the camo pants and the drop-leg rig, nor the guy with the "cold, dead hands" t-shirt. It may happen, but it’s not often; and when it does happen, it involves a certain type of woman that's a little removed from your mainstream female audience. The females that will be comfortable doing that are often already within the culture of firearms and thus, they're exposed to these folks and know that they're not all hillbillies straight out of Deliverance.

But give that same mainstream young woman another female to chat with and it's a whole different story. If you want young females to enter into the market, you need young women that those females can identify with to serve as the vehicle. Mainstream females that would normally be more concerned about their health and their bodies, social issues, their family and whether or not John is going to call her back for a second date than their Second Amendment rights or the ability to defend themselves need to identify with other females in the gun rights industry if they're ever going to make any sort of transition. If you want to bring them around, you need to give them a vehicle that is similar to the embodiment of what they desire and show them that it's okay to have another facet to them (i.e. self defense and 2A rights).

You need to make the vehicle as appealing as possible, not by being sexy, but by possessing characteristics that the female can identify either in practice or in desire. Most females want to be or to feel pretty and be able to balance being desirable with being productive and accomplished; a pretty girl that embodies those basic desires will attract other females. A huffy-gruff Annie Oakley in blue jeans with a mustache and a straw hat is not going to attract today's young female audience. Nor will it likely attract the male audience. Simple human dynamics.

For men, an attractive woman serves to satisfy our need and desire to be appreciated and at the very least, accepted by the opposite sex. It's not always about being sex-crazed.

Men also find women easier to talk to because it is easier to establish our own dominance (even if it's only in our own minds) because unlike men, women are much more subtle and won't directly confront a man's views like another man would. They'll gently coax the male towards their side of the issue. If you give a man a way into seeing your side of things that does not endanger his maledom, he can take it without much of a stigma.

Despise it all you want, wish it weren't so until you're blue in the face, shake your mighty fists at the heavens themselves in defiance until the cows come home, things are as they are. The type of females that Monkeyleg is looking for will accomplish what he wants them to accomplish; making the particular booth more palatable and approachable for men and women alike. Nothing sexist about it. Nothing abusive or exploitative about it either. Sorry to disappoint all of you roaring idealists.

[Big Gay Al]

Cripes, Al..next thing you know, you'll be telling them I'm actually fairly easy to get along with and that I like men.
Well, I was going to, but you beat me to it. ;)

To everyone else:

You know, Barbara is entitled to her opinion. If you don't like it, say so, but don't jump down her throat like a pack of wild dogs.

I don't always agree with her, but that's the way it is. Personally, I see nothing wrong with having a couple of attractive people to draw crowds. But then I'm not attractive, so I wouldn't be one of those people getting ogled at.

But she IS entitled to her opinion, and her posts to this thread or any other are NOT despicable, or anything like that. She simply voiced her opinion. If any of you don't like it, that's your opinion too. But using terms like the one above can lead to unfortunate flame wars, and could drive her away from here again. That would be a great loss for this forum. Barbara is one of the staunchest pro-2nd amendment/CCW people I have the pleasure of knowing.

If you want to pick on someone, pick on me. I support giving guns to Gays, AND teaching them how to use them properly! :evil:

Then again, so does Barbara. :D

[Hawk]

When I first started doing something about CHL, I was visibly nervous and tended to leave the line often to plop down in the lounge and watch TV. The one employee of the indoor range that came to settle down the old guy happened to be the only female counter person on staff.

I tend to avoid stereotypes but, although I came to be friends with some of the guys working the counter, I just can't picture any of them calming and coaching the dude taking up CHL. It's the type of empathy that testosterone seems to inhibit for whatever reason.

Must have worked, I did shoot the only perfect score in my CHL class subsequently. The female instructor (not the counter lady) was coincidence - the classes had instructors randomly assigned.

The lessons I wound up taking at the shotgun range were also from a nice lady. But it just so happens the range only had one club pro and she happened to be female.

Maybe it's just a happy coincidence based on being in Texas, but the three people that were the biggest influence in my "firearm born again" days were all female, none would be confused with "booth babes" (well, counter lady was awful easy on the eyes...) and were just plain extremely competent.

When I see a booth with any of the three in attendance, I do tend to favor it. No offense to the gents, but conversations occuring among a bunch of dudes at a gun booth are predictable in the extreme and hence boring.

I know when I see any of ladies of my acquaintance that the conversation topic cannot be accurately predicted. At least I can't make book that it will involve FPB safties. I might be reminded that I take instruction real well "for a guy" but somehow, I never grow tired of hearing that. :)

I tend to think the thread starter has a great idea. Concurrently, I'm not at all certain I could have phrased it in a manner less certain to draw out the negative comments. Possibly omitted reference to their appearance? Let's face it, any female, particularly those expert on firearms and personable, are going to be very intriguing as far as I'm concerned - regardless if the editorial staff of Maxim would agree with me.

Perhaps my experience of noting that the first three women I met in the firearms field have perhaps forgotten more than I'll ever know gives me a unique perspective. One thing for sure, there's a negative chance of my ever making the trek to TN and turning up on Tamara's blog as one of those males that assumes any female is deficient in firearms knowledge.

[Monkeyleg]

Wow! I leave the forum at 5:30 am, and wake up to World War III!

Pax, Old Fuff, 1911Tuner, I'd hoped that this thread would have been shut down, just because it seemed like it was getting ugly.

Well, it's become less ugly, though I'm still surprised it's not locked.

Barbara, I think you know by now just how much I respect you. But you're wrong about my intentions, and thus wrong in your posts. (And, BTW, you're wrong about yourself: you're not fat and ugly. You sound like my wife, who at age 52 is still very lovely, but continually denigrates herself because she's not 21 anymore).

Look, I'm not talking T&A here, and I'm not talking about slinky evening gowns. And I'm not talking about getting Hooters girls. If you noticed in one of my follow-up posts, I mentioned a wide range of ages. "Young," from my 55 year-old perspective, can be 45 years old.

Hunter Rose's wife "Spoon" was, as I've said, very effective in drawing both men and women to our tables at the gun shows. So were other females, none of whom I would characterize as fashion models.

After five years of working the gun shows for CCW, it's clear to me that women tend to be more comfortable speaking to other women, particularly in a largely male environment. And that men will be more likely to take time to write their legiscritters if a woman asks.

It is what it is, and someone can plug their ears and scream and yell, but it will remain so.

This event is intended to bring in as much money as possible to help defeat Governor Doyle and his cronies. It's not a whorehouse nor a strip club. It's a fund-raiser.

Believe it or not, the University of Wisconsin-Madison has a shooting club. :what: I'll be contacting the head of that shooting club to see if any of their female members can help out.

I guess I should have titled and worded my initial post differently. While this is all very entertaining to read, the thread has done almost nothing to recruit volunteers for the event.

[clasiter]

"You know what's funny? I bet at least 50 of you are suspecting I'm cranky about it because I'm fat and ugly."


Nope, never crossed my mind, now man hater........j/k.]
My wife agrees with you......but then she's a man hater.

[Nematocyst]

OK, I've been reprimanded by a mod that I have great respect for: Pax.

After my tirades last night, and again this morning when waking up, I've thought through this issue a lot. I've reread the thread in 'scan mode' today, paying particular attention to Barbara's arguments.

I share her sense of anger about this issue because I have several young, attractive female friends (and just as many "older attractive female" friends) whom I know to be sensitive to such issues.

To MonkeyLeg: I support your work on CCW in your state. I think it's great. I encourage you, however, sir, to read Barbara's arguments carefully. She is making a great point, and doing so more articulately and with greater grace than I did last night.

I'm sorry to you for having snipped so hard in my comments last night. Clearly, your thread - even though I trust that you meant well - touched a nerve for me.

I suspect that in the end, this may be one of those irreconcilable differences of worldview.

For me, the ends don't always justify the means. I'm NOT OK with using women as props (to borrow Barbara's argument) to draw in gun buyers.

Yes, of course, sex (or 'attractive people of the appropriate gender') sells. Don't you think I know that?

My issue is that I think it's not justified. Just because it works doesn't mean that we should use it, especially when it offends many of the same people to whom we would like to sell our products. (As Barbara stated, you lost her as a customer.)

And THAT'S where we differ. I have services to sell in my business. I could couch those services in ads using sexy people and definitely sell them more effectively.

But I choose not to. I want my services to be worthy of purchase on their own right, without window dressing (or undressing as the case may be).

And, given that many of my clients are women, I know that many of them would be offended by advertizement based in sexist practice. (Barbara's point again.)

As for the images on Oleg's studio site, sure I've seen them. I've respected them. I like them a lot. In fact, his image "Quite staring. Get your own." is on my desk top right now.

But, IMO, for me - others, including Oleg, can speak for themselves - those artistic images convey a different meaning than "let's sell guns". In fact, I'd venture to say that the message of those images speak to this very issue that's being debated here.

OK, again, apologies to MonkeyLeg, ChickenFried, Pax and others for stirring up a flame war last night. I'll try to do better.

It's a very, very busy week coming for me, so I'll probably not participate much in this debate. (I should stand aside anyway after my tirade of last night.)

But I will be reading with interest.

And, I wish you success in your gun sale for a good cause.

Sincerely,

Nem

[zahc]

I fail to see how the strategy is bad from any angle. In fact it's obviously a good idea.

I cannot understand how anyone can think that hiring women to work at a stand hurts the women OR the men. How is this going to drive away women? Do women seriously go into a gun show and avoid booths with women working there?

How is this going to drive away women? It's going to ATTRACT women. A woman can sell another woman on CCW far better than a man can.

Hiring young, attractive females for this purpose is a win-win strategy, and commendable. I don't see how this can be seen as offensive at all.

[Monkeyleg]

Oh, and by the way, Barbara: should you change your mind about all of this, I would invite you to attend the banquet and work one of the gun tables.

Dinner is on me.

[princesscrash01]

I think that having women present at the booth will encourage both men and women to come over to it. I know that I would be much more comfortable talking to a female and getting information that I would be to a male. I just do not know a whole lot about guns right now, and I would be afraid of making a fool of myself. I asked some of my girl friends today while we were out to lunch, and they agreed. For a girl it is just easier to get information from another girl. It is not as intimidating. We have a better way of relating to each other. I think this will be a good opportunity to possibly get more women involved. I would love to help you, but that is a little far for me to travel at the moment. I wish you the best of luck though!

[Barbara]

Would I have to wear a pushup bra? :neener:

If it makes you feel any better, I walked clean out of a room full of Supreme Court Justices and Senators and other people who consider themselves Very Important in a huff the other day because someone started spewing racist crap..its hard being me with my conflicting views on everything..) I'm an idealist, and don't appear to be getting any better with age.

(In fact, I don't think I'm either fat or ugly. I'm a fairly normal 37 year old woman. I just don't spend a lot of time looking purty because its not helpful in anything I do.)

We'll see..if I get less huffy by then, I'll see what I can do about bringing some friends..maybe even a date. With like..an actual male-type person. NOt a wimpy one, though.

If not, I know one fine looking young sailor down your way whose been dragged to gun rights stuff since he was a little guy. I bet he'd be glad to give you a hand if he doesn't get new orders by then.

[Barbara]

But if I come, I'm going frumpy!!

[Monkeyleg]

"We'll see..if I get less huffy by then, I'll see what I can do about bringing some friends..maybe even a date. With like..an actual male-type person. NOt a wimpy one, though."

If your male friend isn't able to attend, please let me know.

My closest nephew is about to be promoted to Commander in the US Navy. He looks really sharp in his dress blues, and his wife has no problem with him accompanying other women to functions. He is both an officer and a gentleman.

Damn, I'm proud of him.

Nematocyst-870, I appreciate your post. I shouldn't have been arguing with you in the wee hours of the night.

Now, can we turn this thread into something that actually helps the cause?

[Greg L]

I think that one thing that is being overlooked is that Dick is looking for young/attractive shooters. He's not looking for eye candy that would have trouble remembering that the pointy end goes in first into the chamber, but rather someone who can carry on a conversation about guns/ccw (while exploiting the "sex sells" angle).

In the first intance I'm usually somewhat put off by the idea that I'm going to buy "x" product because I'm so dazzled that I don't notice what I'm doing. In the second case though (& what I think that Dick is looking for), I'm much more willing to listen to a sales pitch if there is an intelligent conversation that goes along with it.

Minor threadjack from page 2(?):
Military Persons in Uniform would be a better idea with all the goings on in the world.

No. They would then be lending their uniform to a political cause. Around here we tend to get grumpy when police in uniform show up for anti's press confrences standing behind the podium in a (supposed) show of support. It shouldn't be acceptable this time just because it is a cause we believe in.

[Barbara]

I'll tell you what, Dick. If you promise not to have girls draped over guns like the Swedish Bikini Team, I'll make and donate a quilt to your dinner, for sale, raffle, whatever you can do with it.

Maybe one of those geezers who could use something to keep them warm at night. :)

[Larry Ashcraft]

I've been involved with the FNRA fund raisers here for a number of years.

Yes we have young girls hawking tickets, usually with their husbands and/or fathers watching closely.

We pay them well. When the state allowed us to pay them on a consignment basis, they would make around $200 for the event (each). Now that the state only allows us to "tip" them, they still make around $200 per event (each). College or young married girls don't appreciate 'dinner', they appreciate cash.

My feeling is, and I'm sure some males here would agree with me, is that I (as a 56 yr old married male) am going to spend a certain (pre-determined) amount of money at one of these events. It doesn't matter who is selling the tickets.

What is important, and please pay attention:

We feel much better giving our money to a attractive young woman than to a beer-bellied guy wearing a VFW cap.

Just the way it is.

Flame away.

[pax]

Nem, Barbara, & Monkeyleg ~

This page shows why I left the thread open even though it seemed hopeless at first glance.

People, I'm downright proud to be numbered among you. I just plain enjoy hanging out on THR with such good folks.

We don't all have to agree in order to all get along ...

pax

Look, I'm going down to the arsenal on a gun run. Anybody want anything? -- Sledge Hammer

[Harold Mayo]

I dunno about you, but I'd say we rarely learn from people exactly like us, eh?


Uh...actually, I don't learn much from people who are very different. People who don't think like me don't normally have anything to offer that matters to me.

********************************************************

On the subject of sex selling...?

It's a fact that it does for many products. I don't think that sex sells guns or raffle tickets for a cause or anything, but good-looking women would certainly cause me to take notice of a booth or table that I might not otherwise look at twice.

[PX15]

I spoke to my son about this issue, and he agrees with Barbara that having attractive young women used in this manner is insulting...

Of course Stephen is gay, so he has a different perspective than his Father.

I, on the other hand, at 63 with absolutely no letcherous intentions towards any young lady still appreciate seeing them. I think it's human nature to look, even when you are semi-senile and zero danger to them in ANY respect.

Pretty young ladies are attractions to the vast majority of American males, and I think the idea of having them help in the manner requested in this thread is a non-issue.

I can guarantee you that MY appearance at such an event would NOT garner any extra potential patrons, while an attractive young lady certainly would.

I guess my gay son, who I love dearly, and I would cancel each other's votes out on this matter, if a vote were taken.

Just my old fart opinion..

Best Wishes,

JP ;)

[Standing Wolf]

If this thread won't teach me not to spend 17 hours getting certified as a pistol trainer, nothing will. Whew!

Best of success to you, Monkeyleg and the rest of you good folks in Wisconsin! I don't care much how you get that Doyle creature out of office and restore your Second Amendment civil rights—just get him out!

[Ryder]

I've become so good at tuning out advertising that I often ask my kid "what were they selling?" after some flashy TV commercial. I take the time to appreciate the art (if any) but the sales pitch is completely muted in my brain.

Do people really let others influence them into buying things? That seems disgustingly shallow. Marketing professionals must really proud of their ability to brainwash weak minded people into throwing money away? Hard for me to believe this happens.

Ayways... Barbara, I think you're the kind of person he was asking to help. :)

[Barbara]

Cranky, quilting, feminazis?

I missed that in the subject line!

:D

[CB900F]

Fella's;

Ah politically correct, I cordially despise politically correct. It's inane & ultimately futile. The language will morph regardless of intent, and it would certainly seem that attempting to block its doing so leads directly to "1984".

Somewhere earlier in this thread, Barbara stated that her concerns for the second amendment & civil equality of the sexes, by whatever terms she used, are equal. With all due respect, I disagree. I will not deny that both are certainly important in the arguments she presents. However, I also sense a tone of conflict in her arguments in having to choose to uphold her standards of equality in favor of aiding Monkeyleg's campaign to raise funds for Wisconsin CCW. The fact remains though, that she's publicly stated here which side of the scale weighs more heavily with her. So be it. She has that right.

By the way, I preface all my comments with "Fella's". Females are allowed to read them. I would refer those who object to the term as sexist to the preface to this post. 'Chairperson' is an excellent example of politically correct nonesense. The masculine is also the neuter according to some really big thick book we seem to use to define the English language. However, haven't checked that just lately, perhaps the folly has contaminated the editorial halls. No matter if it has, common usage will out. What is correct today will be insult tomorrow. Regard the 1800's English police term, which was the correct usage then, for prostitution. As the bobbies got tired of writing it all out, it then became an acronym. Which then became an exceedingly dirty word. And is currently morphing into an objectional term of common usage that occupies all sorts of niches in the parts of speech pantheon.

I applaud Monkeyleg for his efforts to obtain knowledgeable volunteers who also have attributes that enhance furthering his cause. The fact that some object only points to the infinite variety of human philosophy.

Reality will out, it always does.

900F

[Barbara]

I don't consider the male to be the standard or neuter, either.

You know, a lot of you who think using babes to sell things are the same ones wondering why there are thong bikinis marketed in size 6x and why 10 year old girls are wearing tshirts that say "my boyfriend kisses better than you."

It's also interesting that the single biggest complaint and/insult I hear about Hillary Clinton is that she's ugly! Not that she's a leftist liar whose been involved in more crooked deals that the typical New York mafia don. That she's ugly.

Big fat deal. Kennedy ain't a looker, either, but at least folks seem to be able to concentrate on his real faults.

It's ridiculous and I'm not going to do anything to continue it.

I'm not going to condone marketing guns with sex when a good part of my life is spent convincing women that firearms are a "product" that is as much their heritage and right as it is a man's. The fact that they continue to hear from gun owners that they're welcome..as long as they're cute, quiet and well behaved is ridiculous and not something I'm going to help continue.

[CB900F]

Fella's;

Doesn't agree with the dictionary either. Oh well, I didn't make the rule, just cited it.

Monkeyleg is trying to be as effective as he can in presenting his agenda. Trying to make any interaction among humans sexless is blatently impossible, futile, senseless. Can't Be Done. For him to not be as effective as he can plays into the hands of his opposition. I saw nothing in his request that required his volunteers to be anything other than what they would normally present themselves to the public as. Why you object to that is beyond me. If he'd implied that they'd had to be sexy, through dress, undress, or mannerisms, you'd have a valid argument. But he didn't & you don't.

Given your stated attitude here, I think it's a good thing you're not going to attend his function.

900F

[Oleg Volk]

FWIW, Barbara has modeled for me before and is coming down to TN again to make more ads for RKBA. I think she is more concerned about the backlash from doing this badly and from making a respectable effort seem seedy and tawdy.

I don't mind pretty girls in ads (and noticed that one pretty girl can sell more guns or gun parts than five SpecOps guys). However, I dislike ads which make such girls the focus of their ads, as if the product or the service can't stand on its own merit.

[Oleg Volk]

www.a-human-right.com

If the ladies in his photos all looked like Rossane Bar or Sen. Finestien would we bother to look at them?

Newsflash -- some of my models are obese or old. Some of them were received well on THR and TFL, some were not. I also try to emphasize their "good sides" visually, both in the looks and in the expressions. Like it or not, "attractive" (whatever it means to each individual) gets more attention than "ugly". Same applies to guns and cars. How many would buy Pontiac Aztec if it wasn't so ugly? How many would buy Hi-Point carbines if they were nicer to the eye?

[akodo]

Go to any large sales event, be it cars, tradeshows, boat show, computers, whatever, companies go out and hire 'booth babes' simply to attract people to walk close enough to take a 2nd look at their product.

No guy actually buys item Z because he thinks it will help him get in with the girl at the booth (or no sane guy) but in a hall filled with 1000 booths, the booth babe is just one more thing to make your booth stand out, and get someone to pause for a few seconds. This is no different than a sign that says 'free frizbee' or 'raffle' used to pull people in too. No one who is NOT interested in the product is going to let a free frizbee change their minds. But a lot of people who never gave it much thought are going to come buy to sign up for the raffle, take the free frizbee, or glance at the attractive woman.

Hell, most booths have the boothbabe either handing out the free frizbees or helping with the raffle slips.

So be outraged at being used and being tricked, but be outraged at everyone equally, be they using attractive women, big flashy banners, free plastic junk or whatever.

[Oleg Volk]

"Quite staring. Get your own."

That graphic advocated getting a (social) life more than it advocated getting a gun!

[meef]

Barbara: It's also interesting that the single biggest complaint and/insult I hear about Hillary Clinton is that she's ugly!
Well.... she is.

But hers is the kind of ugly that emanates from within. It has nothing to do with what she looks like on the outside.

Just my opinion.....

[Monkeyleg]

Oleg, I'm glad that you chimed in on this thread.

What I never made clear--but should have from the outset--is that I'm modelling this banquet based upon other pro-gun banquets that have done well in the past.

At every one of these, there were ladies--from age 21 to age 60--at the gun tables to record the auction bids.

Attire ranged from jeans to business skirt/jacket to the ubiquitous "little black dress."

Doesn't matter.

I wasn't asking for women to behave like Paris Hilton while holding a particular gun. All I was asking for was for women who were pro-gun to help, and particularly women who can draw a man's attention. That's a very wide spectrum.

And I worded my request very badly. Very, very badly.

Now that this thread has reached five pages--which means that most THR members won't read it--I guess I'll have to start another volunteer request thread, with your permission.

My simple goal is to get as many people as possible to help defeat WI Governor Jim Doyle--one of the most anti-gun governors in the country, and without question the most anti-gun governor in the history of this state.

I'll leave it to others to discuss the merits or lack thereof of using "sex" to sell guns/cars/clothing or whatever.

[Trip20]

Dick,

Send me a PM or email with location/date/time...etc. If I've missed this information it's because I did not want to read every post, as some almost made me ill.

She's 38yrs old, beautiful even to unbiased eyes, and so amiable she could sell ice to an Eskimo. Can't promise anything at this point -- so please explore all avenues -- but if I know more of the particulars I can explore the potential of our attendance.

Of course I would have to work 'long side her to thwart all the marriage proposals. ;)

------------

With regard to the above mess: I believe written word was the enemy with this thread. If Dick had put forth this inquiry with spoken word it would have been easy to discern that he intended no insolence. None.

My opinion is that Dick is virtually incapable of this sort of blunder.

Whatever our cause, women's rights, gun rights, or gay rights -- let us not get so passionate that we look for confrontation around every corner, lest we find ourselves battling a competent ally.

[Nematocyst]

I wasn't asking for women to behave like Paris Hilton while holding a particular gun. All I was asking for was for women who were pro-gun to help, and particularly women who can draw a man's attention. That's a very wide spectrum.Ah, now there's a request that I can support whole heartedly.

{'Specially since you made a specific effort to distance yourself from the Paris Hiltons of the world. Good decision.}

And I worded my request very badly. Very, very badly.Yeah, it could have been worded better.

Ah, but we all have our bad moments, eh? If I had a dime for every poorly-worded faux pau I've made in the last 20, I'd be a rich man.

Don't beat yourself up for more than 2 nsec. We live, we learn. ;)

Now that this thread has reached five pages--which means that most THR members won't read it--I guess I'll have to start another volunteer request thread, with your permission.I think that's a great idea.

IMO, this is a worthwhile thread for THR. (Thanks again to Pax for the patience and wisdom to let it live, to let this important discussion happen.)

If you start a new thread, I promise to offer positive suggestions for your efforts.

My simple goal is to get as many people as possible to help defeat WI Governor Jim Doyle--one of the most anti-gun governors in the country, and without question the most anti-gun governor in the history of this state.Sounds like a worthy goal, Dick. Thanks again for your efforts.

Best of luck with it.

OK, back to work with me. I haven't had a day off in over 4 months. So much to be done...

Nem

PS: to those who complain that our concerns were about PC, speaking for myself, I hate PC. Those who know me understand that I'm anything but PC.

No, it's not about PC. It's about honoring and respecting our fellow gun owners of any orientation - male, female, gay, lesbian, bi, young, older, attractive, not so attractive - and not driving them away with moments of indiscretion that we later may regret.

We're all in this together. United we stand, divided we ...

[el44vaquero]

Good luck and best wishes from an Okie who wishes the drive wasn't so far. :cool:

[PX15]

I've read each and every post.. I even read the one I posted to be fair to me.

I've come to the conclusion that:


HILLIARY IS UGLY TO THE BONE* :barf:

Even Stephen thinks so, and he and I tend to disagree on many things.

(Like whether watching "Brokeback Mountain" would be preferable to watching the original "Stagecoach", for the 34th time.)

Happy Trails!

JP/SP

*none of that "skin deep" crap

[12-34hom]

Delete

[12-34hom]

Larry Ashcraft statedWe feel much better giving our money to a attractive young woman than to a beer bellied guy wearing a VFW cap.


There it is. There is no hidden agenda, no deep dark secret meanings.

Barbara & 870 you really need to get over yourselfs....

12-34hom.

[danurve]

Heh
This thread kinda reminds me of the computer shows that used to roll though 2-3 times a year. But that was back in the days when a 300mghz chip was 300 bucks etc. You walk in and 90% of the people working the ticket desks were - pritty girls. Some of the vendors with muliple tables selling, just lots of junk had pritty girls in tight skirts as well. So, the ratio of pritty girls to geeks was about 3 to 100. Toss in the occasional - person of low hygene with bad breath from eating fritos - what a show it was.
I felt bad for those girls. You could tell by the looks on their faces they were tired of being ogled at and wanted to be somewhere else. Did I look? Discreetly but heck yeah, some of these girls were smokin`.
How do we live with ourselves?

[Hutch]

From Barbara It's also interesting that the single biggest complaint and/insult I hear about Hillary Clinton is that she's ugly! Not that she's a leftist liar whose been involved in more crooked deals that the typical New York mafia don. That she's ugly. Well, except for reading it here, this is the first time I've heard that as the major complaint. Seems to me that when someone can't counter the message, they attack the messenger, perhaps unfairly, perhaps because of appearance. This was certainly true when it was Janet Reno. Given Hilary's politics, morals, and ethic, why would anyone attack her appearance?

I always thought the leftists were throwing out a red herring when they complained that the conservative objection to Hilary was that she was "uppity". Never heard leftists describe Condi as "uppity". Too loaded a term in this context, I guess. "Uppity" or "Ugly" had nothing to do with it. Thatcher was no beauty queen. Neither was Jeanne Kirkpatrick, Reagan's first UN ambassador. Both were most assuredly outspoken and controversial. Both were highly regarded by conservatives.

[Missashot]

This comes from an attractive young female.:neener:
There has got to be a better way to word the title of this thread. It sounds like a pick up line for a house of ill repute.:eek:
Here's the problem: If you have to go to a computer gun forum looking for "Young, attractive females" then maybe you need to work on different types of marketing skills or sell better products.:)
Chances are, if it doesn't sell on it's own merits, there is something wrong, either the price is more than what most people are willing to pay, or there are some quality issues with the products.
Just a thought. :)

[Hawk]

Love the grips on that RIA.

[CB900F]

Missashot;

I think it's highly probable that you didn't start at the beginning. The product Monkeyleg is trying to sell is opposition to the governer of Wisconsin & his anti-CCW stance. The price? Donations to further the political opposition to said governer.

It's also highly probable that Monkeyleg is not, nor ever has been, a marketing professional. But, you & some few others are willing to judge him by the current state-of-the-art marketing standard. What does that say about people who didn't read for content, but merely knee-jerked because a button got pushed?

900F

[KC&97TA]

LOL, I'd send my wife home to WI to assist you're cause, but she'll still be in Iraq in July :neener:

[lbmii]

Wow a big ole greasy wad of posts on this here thread. Everyone all worked up and stuff.

All I have to add is:

Pretty girls are fun!

I like pretty girls.

Gun shows are fun.

Gun shows with pretty girls are fun too.

:neener:

[Barbara]

All but one of the women who posted here and who emailed me or sent me a pm thought using women to sell guns was a bad idea. If you want to get more women involved in shooting and/or voting the way you need them to, you may want to consider listening to them, and maybe even giving up ogling gun chicks. Think of it as a sacrafice for the cause.

[DevLcL]

They're just jealous. :D

[Barbara]

:neener:

[1911Tuner]

Having met with Missashot and her husband on a few occasions, I can state without reservation that she is not only NOT a raging feminist who is looking for a reason to be offended...she is very much a lady. Very feminine, soft-spoken, very pretty, and has the most charming smile and "Southern Belle" accent that I've had the pleasure of coming under the influence of in a long time. She is also a strong woman who can and will voice her opinions without being confrontational or "In Your Face" with her views. She is one of those women who can disagree with you and make you like it. :cool:

We now return you to our regularly scheduled flame war...

(Juuuuuuuuust kiddin' Barbara!):neener:

[xring44]

If I had a pink corvette & wanted to sell it at a auto show, I'd be looking at young attractive males to hawk the wares, thinking that it would probably be bought by some hawt chick----those poor attractive males would be subjected to some downright smokin' looks by those ladies.

I know how it is to be looked at like a side of beef;) Oops, left out the word "don't" between the first and third words on the last sentence:neener:

[Herself]

Barbara, it probably is a bad idea to use women to sell guns -- I think it is -- but you're just as guilty of commodifying our sex as the men are: individuals are entitled to make up their own minds about what actions they will or will not take. It would be quite immoral for us to compel them.

If some adult woman wants to pose nude in a magazine aimed at a male readership, that's her free choice to make; you and I aren't obliged to buy it or even approve of it.

Those Barbie-doll-shaped young things lounging on next years offerings at the car show are not there at gunpoint. They chose to be there.

--Herself

[bromdenlong]

I haven't been to that many gun shows, but the people behind the tables that I have seen have been predominantly middle-aged to elderly white men.

Seems to me that the NRA et. al. need to reach out to blacks, hispanics, jews, younger people, gays/lesbians (gotta dig the pink pistols)and women in all these groups, perhaps especially soccer moms - basically everyone who doesn't fit the NRA stereotype.

Now that I think on it, college students of all persuasions may be the most important audience of all. Future molders of public opinion and all that.

I'm sure all of this has been said before on THR. Apologies if this is dull and repetitive. But if a significant increase in the numbers of minorities, college students and soccer moms in the NRA could be effected, we'd stand a much better chance of politically marginalizing the antigun activists.

I'm a hetero white male. The government, big business, etc. - 'the system', if you will - is supposedly set up to favor guys like me. I still don't trust government enough to let them have all the guns. It completely floors me that gun control is so popular among groups who have traditionally been oppressed by that same system. But maybe that's a subject for another thread. I guess this one got hot enough. :rolleyes:

[Barbara]

Yep, and the CEOs selling them are there by choice, too. But not many women make the choice to be CEO, do they?

So, why not?
I'm not saying it should be illegal, and anyone, male or female, can do what they want to, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. But I'm going to keep asking the questions because I think its important.

My goal in life isn't to make people happy. It's to change the way things are. Being accused of combativeness isn't really an issue for me. :)

[Barbara]

No one here complains when I dog the left about gun rights with as much ferocity. When I believe in something, I stand up for it, even if its not popular.

[NineseveN]

It's not even whether or not it is a bad idea, it's whether or not it's an idea that is worthy of contempt and near damnation. Monkeyleg is asking for volunteers, not forcing employees or people to do this. He wants females, of their own free will, that can attract others and be appealing at a fundraiser...

What in the world is so outrageous about that? It's not like he gave measurements or sexual performance requirements. It seems to me that some folks just need something to gripe about. For all of your trouble Monkeyleg, you should have just hired Hooters girls if this was going to be the reaction anyway.

[Working Man]

I almost forgot what the first post was about. :evil:

I think that having women there will help attract other women. As stated
before it helps with their comfort level. I've been to enough shows to see
how many men talk down to women when it comes to firearms. These are
fools who will continue to lose sales but may also drive a few women away
from gun ownership and support.

I think the biggest issue is Monkeyleg's wording, not his intent.

Will pretty girls get his booth noticed? Yes. By women? Maybe/maybe not.
Does sex sell? Yes. Does it sell guns? No. At least as a real gunny I hope not.

Maybe because I'm young (29), idealistic, or just practical.....
but Dorothy holding a firearm provocatively or dressed like Marry Ann won't
make a sale to me. Show me how it ripped a big hole through the Tin Man
or some downed lions, tigers, and bears, now you have my attention. Drop
the Wicked Witch with one shot and that puppy is sold. Demonstrate how
it's Gilligan proof and I'll buy two. A Beach Babe selling (your gun here)
won't make me buy two and rest my head between them.... I wouldn't even
buy one unless it is what I wanted at a good price. Even then who knows,
bimboism is a real turn off.

Now if she can demonstrate how to take it apart and clean it, knows all the
different loads for it, knows the effective range and practical uses for it,
and is not pushy.... well that's a different story.

If T&A was as strong as some want you to believe I'd have a truck I didn't
really want right now.

[1911Tuner]

9-7 spake:

>It's not even whether or not it is a bad idea, it's whether or not it's an idea that is worthy of contempt and near damnation. Monkeyleg is asking for volunteers, not forcing employees or people to do this. He wants females, of their own free will, that can attract others and be appealing at a fundraiser...

What in the world is so outrageous about that?<
**********************

Pretty much sums it up, I'd say.:cool:

As long as someone's personal choices don't infringe on my rights or cost me any hard-earned green, my attitude is...et sic, suum cuique.

[Missashot]

Originally posted by CB900F:
Missashot;

I think it's highly probable that you didn't start at the beginning. The product Monkeyleg is trying to sell is opposition to the governer of Wisconsin & his anti-CCW stance. The price? Donations to further the political opposition to said governer.

It's also highly probable that Monkeyleg is not, nor ever has been, a marketing professional. But, you & some few others are willing to judge him by the current state-of-the-art marketing standard. What does that say about people who didn't read for content, but merely knee-jerked because a button got pushed?

900F
I did start in the beginning. I read every post. I usually read everything before I reply to any thread.:scrutiny:
What I was trying to say, is that the thread was labeled VERY inappropriately.
If he insists on having females to run his table, maybe he should have said "Knowledgeable females wanted to run a gun table".;)
Not "Young attractive females". I would like to see someone run a table that knows something about it. I HATE it when you try to ask someone a question and they just giggle and go "I don't know" and they are there only because they are pretty. That applies to ANY situation. Whether it is at a gun show, car show, a shop in the mall, or anywhere else. I feel like if you are going to be selling something you need to know something about it.:eek:
I assure you that my post was not a knee jerk reaction.:D

1911 Tuner:
Thank you for the kind words. :)

[Trip20]

All but one of the women who posted here and who emailed me or sent me a pm thought using women to sell guns was a bad idea.
Bolding mine. I have seen the above implication well more than once in this thread, and it's completely false.

Dick is not involved in an endeavor to sell guns using women. He never implied as much. He certainly does not deserve to be even inadvertently accused of the same. He was attempting to enhance attendance at a pro-gun affair by having a few appealing ladies work the tables.

This is no way degrades women. If anything it degrades men by showing how gullible they can be to fork out more cash or attend an event because there’s a nice looking female near by.

Fact: Men (most) are attracted to women. Also, a good percentage of men will show more interest in a product when pretty ladies are associated with the product. No man associated with this forum would dare admit to being part of this category :rolleyes: , but it works and marketing is tailored around what works.

I hope you get as worked up when you see a guy pumping iron on a BowFlex commercial. That poor SOB. Being taken advantage of by that mean corporation. Oh the humanity. :rolleyes: :banghead:

PS -- It may be a good idea to be sure there is a real true injustice instead of going all berzerker-feminist looking for things where they do not exist. It may lead others to think, "cry wolf" when you really need our help to rally for support.

[Working Man]

I hope you get as worked up when you see a guy pumping iron on a BowFlex commercial. That poor SOB. Being taken advantage of by that mean corporation. Oh the humanity.

I get what you're saying but bad analogy with the BowFlex. That is suppose
to show you what you can achieve buy using the product. Well I guess there
are lots of products I need to stay away from because I do not want to be
top heavy. :rolleyes:

[Kramer Krazy]

Edit - I guess I didn't word this well enough for some people here

As someone who actually has a degree in Marketing (EDIT) like it really means anything.........ever consider this about having "attractive women" at your booth, (EDIT) depending on the how you present these women.......

1) You attract people who are not interested in anything at your table
2) These people block your table/display from those who really are interested
3) Because of a crowd of female gawkers, some people refuse to go near your table at all
4) Some people get offended and take note to NOT support you and your product/cause
5) Word spreads that you are a sexist-pig
6) Men who happen to be with their significant other get in trouble for even looking in the direction of your table......heaven forbid they mention a word about going over to it.
7) Add any more you wish to add.......

I've seen similar things at guitar shows (EDIT) but to great extremes. One vendor hired women in bikinis to walk around holding a guitar with a sign to visit this guy's booth. You'd hate to imagine the comments made about him, his "hired whores", and his product made by others at the show. (EDIT) THIS is not normal at a guitar show, so it was frowned upon.....

On the other hand, (EDIT) an effective way to do this, I know a woman who is married to a member of the Hell's Angels. They have a friend who has a table at several area bike show/swap meets and he gets her to run his table for him. The difference is that she dresses as she always does (jeans and T-shirt), but she grew up around bikes and bikers (her father was a patch holder) and knows the product better than most of the customers. There's nothing worse, as Missashot mentions, asking the woman behind the table a question and she knows absolutely nothing about what you just asked. It's always, "Honey....this gentleman would like to know......". Ideally, I think you need to find women like Missashot........she has her conceal carry permit/has more guns/shoots more often/reloads more than most guys I know.....then again, I helped create that "gun monster". :neener: :D

(EDIT) - I sure hope this better represents what I was trying to say. In a situation like this, where it is not the norm to showcase "attractive women" to attract viewers (such as at car shows where the majority of the women involved know nothing other than the car is "pretty"), there *can* be very negative reactions.

[NineseveN]

At what part did reading comprehension and context fall off of the face of the earth in this discussion. Monkeyleg never, ever asked for cheap chicks with their thongage flashing, he didn't go to the sluttymodel web forums, he came to the High Road; a place where gun knowledge and enthusiasm is paramount and asked for young (subjective term) attractive (again, subjective) women to help at a fundraiser involving firearms rights.

All of this silly nonsense about hiring whores to pimp products and degrading women in scantily clad outfits is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand and a net full of red herrings. He came here, to the High Road. Am I the only one that finds it obvious what this pretty well defined member of our community was looking for? Again, it sounds like some people were just looking for a reason to get upset or to spout some anti-sexism or feminist horse poo. How do you people make it through your average day making so many completely unsupported leaps and assumptions in trying to assert your dominance on an issue that is not even part of the discussions at hand?

Please, for the sake of relevance, give it a rest already. :banghead:

[Henry Bowman]

Amen, NineseveN!

Monkeyleg is doing a huge amount of frontline work to bring CCW to Wisconsin. Can't he catch a break?:rolleyes:

[Trip20]

....... ever consider this about having "attractive women" at your booth.......

Ever been to a car show?......

Ah, whatever. We could argue all day about what works and what does not work. It doesn't matter.

I'll defer to NineseveN's eloquent outline of what's gone on here:
All of this silly nonsense about hiring whores to pimp products and degrading women in scantily clad outfits is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand and a net full of red herrings. How do you people make it through your average day making so many completely unsupported leaps and assumptions in trying to assert your dominance on an issue that is not even part of the discussions at hand?

[Kramer Krazy]

I decided to slightly edit my post #143, above. I guess I wasn't getting my point across the way I was hoping to.

[Justin]

This one's definately gone off track.

Perhaps it was the initial post was phrased, or perhaps something else.

There's certainly nothing wrong with asking for female volunteers to show up to an event for reasons of diversity, or possibly even sex appeal.

In the end it all depends on how you want to present yourself, and how your volunteers present themselves.

There's a big difference between a woman dressed up like a Playboy Bunny and a woman dressed professionally and capable of making an intelligent pitch to others.