LOADED Shotguns in cars in Texas /OK


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GlockNation
April 11, 2006, 12:02 AM
Does anyone know what the rules are for transporting a loaded shotgun in your car/SUV as a self defense weapon? Does it matter if you have a Texas CHL and are in Texas? What about a Texas CHL in Oklahoma? I picked up a book today on Texas gun rights but it just makes the bald statement that the more restrictive handgun rules do not apply to long guns.

Any help would be appreciated.

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modifiedbrowning
April 11, 2006, 12:26 AM
Packing.Org (http://www.packing.org/state/texas/#statecar_law)

GlockNation
April 11, 2006, 07:44 AM
Thanks MB:

Packing.org is a great resource!

I am interested in hearing from some law enforcement officers in Texas and Oklahoma about actual application of the law, either by way of what they have heard or by way of their their personal expericnces. Like the saying goes, there is no substitute for experience!

Many thanks in advance for your input and insight!

TexasRifleman
April 11, 2006, 08:36 AM
Don't know what LEO's will tell you but I have carried a loaded rifle or shotgun in a car in Texas for the last 20 years and never had a problem.

Unconcealed, loaded, whatever.

Long guns are not a problem. Your book made a bald statement because long guns are not addressed in the Penal Code at all really other than things like NFA items (which are legal here also).

What you have to watch for is WHO sees them.

You are more likely to get into a "disturbing the peace" thing than anything else if you are carrying them around.

Also have to consider the theft potential, it's just asking to be stolen laying there in the seat.

CHL has nothing to do with long guns. You go into Oklahoma you have to check Oklahoma long gun rules. CHL won't help you at all other than the usual "good guy" benefit of the doubt you get when presenting it. (Texas Troopers give you that benefit anyway).

GlockNation
April 11, 2006, 10:40 AM
Thanks for the input SigMan!

What I am contemplating doing is keeping a LOADED 18" barrell12 ga in a gunsock placed between the driver's seat and the driver's door. I my particular vehicle I do not think that it would be noticable especially in a gunsock. But it would be accessible very quickly.

According to the packing.org site, even with a CHL in Oklahoma I would still need to keep it unchambered and locked in a case in the back or trunk, but, in Texas it would seem that I can keep it LOADED and place it between the driver's seat and driver's door.

As far as disturbing the peace, I hear what you are saying, but I guess that did not apply to the Black Panthers and their carrying shotguns outside the Dallas School Board meetings back when the limp wristed Chief Click was still the DPD Chief and refused to intervene. Remember that? It was back in the late 90s.

Firehand
April 11, 2006, 10:41 AM
I believe (in OK)a rifle or shotgun can be carried with magazine loaded and chamber empty if it is either in the trunk or otherwise out of reach of driver or passengers and/or in a case.

Would suggest contact state Bureau of Investigation, they should be able to answer for certain for OK.
http://www.osbi.state.ok.us/

seeker_two
April 11, 2006, 10:46 AM
As far as disturbing the peace, I hear what you are saying, but I guess that did not apply to the Black Panthers and their carrying shotguns outside the Dallas School Board meetings back when the limp wristed Chief Click was still the DPD Chief and refused to intervene. Remember that? It was back in the late 90s.



Funny you should mention that.... (http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/Black_Panther.asp?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=3&item=Black_Panther)

We're discussing something similar in the "Today's Headlines" thread...

TexasRifleman
April 11, 2006, 11:35 AM
As far as disturbing the peace, I hear what you are saying, but I guess that did not apply to the Black Panthers and their carrying shotguns outside the Dallas School Board meetings back when the limp wristed Chief Click was still the DPD Chief and refused to intervene. Remember that? It was back in the late 90s.

You are correct. John Wiley Price had an exemption to do whatever he wanted.

For the rest of us, it's pot luck....

Deavis
April 11, 2006, 01:13 PM
Texas Law:
46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club.
(b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), an offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree if the offense is committed on any premises licensed or issued a permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages.

Note there is no mention of long guns in the weapons that are unlawful to carry. Citizens in Houston were published in the paper carrying shotguns whicle patrolling their streets. There appears to be, after a little searching, no restriction on carrying a long gun in Texas. The law makes no distiction between loaded or unloaded. Furthermore:

42.01. DISORDERLY CONDUCT. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly:
...
(8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;
(9) discharges a firearm on or across a public road;
...

I think the disorderly conduct law is fairly well stated that you must be in a public place and acting in a manner that is CALCULATED to alarm people. Just because you've got a shotty in your car and people don't like it, doesn't mean you intended to alarm them.

GlockNation
April 11, 2006, 01:40 PM
Deavis, you rock! Thanks for that insightful post.

GlockNation
April 11, 2006, 01:46 PM
Still would like very much to have some LEOs weigh in with their opinions and experince on this issue.

Many thanks to those of you who have responded so far.

chas_martel
April 11, 2006, 01:59 PM
I know of no place in the Texas penal code where a distinction
is made between a loaded and an unloaded gun.
Been that way as long as I can remember in Texas.


And I used to be a CHL instructor, for what it is worth.

Topgun
April 11, 2006, 02:00 PM
Well, how the heck else can ya get a pheasant ya see a piece down the road?

:D

GlockNation
April 11, 2006, 02:04 PM
Still would like very much to have some LEOs weigh in with their opinions and experince on this issue.

Many thanks to those of you who have responded so far.

Risasi
April 11, 2006, 02:04 PM
Hi Glock,

I'm not really pertinent to your direct question about TX/OK, but I do know generally speaking RE: the topic of carrying a loaded shotgun in a car is usually illegal.

I'm from Nebraska and it is expressly forbidden to carry a loaded shotgun in a vehicle. Unloaded no problem. Some are convinced that this was to curb roadside hunting. Since that used to be pretty common around here decades ago.

Personally my own common sense, I think it's a bad idea. Reason being if one of those shells go off inside a passenger compartment you are in for quite a mess. Especially if it's loaded with steel shot. You would have more bouncing than in a pinball machine.
Perhaps I'd carry loaded in the tube or magazine, but I don't think I would keep one in the pipe. As to whether or not only in the tube is considered loaded is usually defined in your state statutes.

Just my two cents.

chas_martel
April 11, 2006, 05:29 PM
In Texas there is no distinction made between a loaded and an unloaded gun. We
are not like other states in this regard.

Police have no say in what the law is. It sounds like what you want
is for a DA to chime in.

Guys, this is fairly straightfoward, the Texas Penal code is easy to access both over the internet
as well as getting a printed copy.

And please don't rely on cops to tell you what the law is. You need to be asking a District Attorney.

In a practical sense I have been seen by many, many cops while in possession of long arms and
it has never been a problem. For that matter, I've been seen carting my M16 around with no
problem. In fact, outside the more populated towns you will still see long
guns in the back windows of pickups.

Just don't show one in a manner calculated to cause alarm. IE. Don't point it at people. Does
not matter if it is loaded, you point it your in big trouble.

GEM
April 11, 2006, 06:09 PM
San Antonio has a local ordinance about loaded long arm carry. Does this conflict with state law? - Perhaps but it hasn't been tested.

If you call the SAPD they will tell you and you can find it if you search enough.

Flyboy
April 11, 2006, 08:23 PM
Oklahoma summary:
Your permit is good here. By law, we honor all valid concealed carry permits.

Long guns are fine so long as they are not chamber-loaded. Magazine loaded, cruiser-ready, and so forth are fine, so long as you have a permit. There is no requirement that it be out of reach of the driver under this provision.

For the text of the law, go to http://www.lsb.state.ok.us and look up Title 21, section 1290. I'd paste the text, but I can't be arsed to boot over into Windows right now, and the Legislative Service Bureau's site only seems to like IE.

wdlsguy
April 11, 2006, 08:45 PM
San Antonio has a local ordinance about loaded long arm carry.

Correct.

San Antonio Code of Ordinances Sec. 21-16. Carrying loaded rifle or shotgun.
It shall be unlawful for any person, other than duly authorized peace officers, to carry a loaded rifle or shotgun on any public street within the city or in a motor vehicle while the same is being operated on any public street within the city.
(Code 1959, 26-28)

Does this conflict with state law?

Yes, so San Antonio's ordinance is unenforceable.

Texas Local Government Code 229.001. FIREARMS; EXPLOSIVES.
(a) A municipality may not adopt regulations relating to the transfer, private ownership, keeping, transportation, licensing, or registration of firearms, ammunition, or firearm supplies.
(b) Subsection (a) does not affect the authority a municipality has under another law to:
(1) require residents or public employees to be armed for personal or national defense, law enforcement, or another lawful purpose;
(2) regulate the discharge of firearms within the limits of the municipality;
(3) regulate the use of property, the location of a business, or uses at a business under the municipality's fire code, zoning ordinance, or land-use regulations as long as the code, ordinance, or regulations are not used to circumvent the intent of Subsection (a) or Subdivision (5) of this subsection;
(4) regulate the use of firearms in the case of an insurrection, riot, or natural disaster if the municipality finds the regulations necessary to protect public health and safety;
(5) regulate the storage or transportation of explosives to protect public health and safety, except that 25 pounds or less of black powder for each private residence and 50 pounds or less of black powder for each retail dealer are not subject to regulation; or
(6) regulate the carrying of a firearm by a person other than a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, at a:
(A) public park;
(B) public meeting of a municipality, county, or other governmental body;
(C) political rally, parade, or official political meeting; or
(D) nonfirearms-related school, college, or professional athletic event.
(c) The exception provided by Subsection (b)(6) does not apply if the firearm is in or is carried to or from an area designated for use in a lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting event and the firearm is of the type commonly used in the activity.

Hawk
April 11, 2006, 09:28 PM
Everything I need to know about Texas law, I get from the Lawdog files.

Migrating Liberals (http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2006/03/migrating-liberals.html)

Excerpt:
Write this down:

Texas does not have a law entitled "brandishing". And even if we did, carrying your rifle from your pickup to your house would not violate such a dumb-bunny law.

Texas does not have any laws concerning the carry of shotguns and/or rifles. Yes, he can carry his rifle over his shoulder as he walks down the farm-to-market road. Deal with it.

Texas does not have any laws concerning ammunition. It is not against the law to have loose ammo in your vehicle. Or your pockets. Or in the change plate at church.

Texas does not register guns. Period. Suck it up.

Texas does not have the legal term "assault rifle". It's a rifle. It's legal. Shut your pie hole and evolve into a spine.

Deputy Friendly will explain this to you once. Maybe twice. The third time he has to listen to your snivelling, whining, lying claptrap, he is going to turn into Deputy Irritated. This should be taken as a warning.

...

Thank you for your attention.

LawDog

Since I moved here from New York in 1978, there has never been a time I haven't been glad of it. There have been, however, times when I was gladder than others: reading the above was one of those times.

GlockNation
April 13, 2006, 03:46 PM
This has been such a useful thread that I have printed it out for further reference.

I just wanted to thank everyone for taking the time and making the effort to educate the rest of us.

MrMex
September 12, 2008, 01:00 AM
Correct.

San Antonio Code of Ordinances Sec. 21-16. Carrying loaded rifle or shotgun.
It shall be unlawful for any person, other than duly authorized peace officers, to carry a loaded rifle or shotgun on any public street within the city or in a motor vehicle while the same is being operated on any public street within the city.
(Code 1959, 26-28)

Quote:
Does this conflict with state law?
Yes, so San Antonio's ordinance is unenforceable.

Texas Local Government Code 229.001. FIREARMS; EXPLOSIVES.
(a) A municipality may not adopt regulations relating to the transfer, private ownership, keeping, transportation, licensing, or registration of firearms, ammunition, or firearm supplies.
(b) Subsection (a) does not affect the authority a municipality has under another law to:
(1) require residents or public employees to be armed for personal or national defense, law enforcement, or another lawful purpose;
(2) regulate the discharge of firearms within the limits of the municipality;
(3) regulate the use of property, the location of a business, or uses at a business under the municipality's fire code, zoning ordinance, or land-use regulations as long as the code, ordinance, or regulations are not used to circumvent the intent of Subsection (a) or Subdivision (5) of this subsection;
(4) regulate the use of firearms in the case of an insurrection, riot, or natural disaster if the municipality finds the regulations necessary to protect public health and safety;
(5) regulate the storage or transportation of explosives to protect public health and safety, except that 25 pounds or less of black powder for each private residence and 50 pounds or less of black powder for each retail dealer are not subject to regulation; or
(6) regulate the carrying of a firearm by a person other than a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, at a:
(A) public park;
(B) public meeting of a municipality, county, or other governmental body;
(C) political rally, parade, or official political meeting; or
(D) nonfirearms-related school, college, or professional athletic event.
(c) The exception provided by Subsection (b)(6) does not apply if the firearm is in or is carried to or from an area designated for use in a lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting event and the firearm is of the type commonly used in the activity.


I live in sa and find this contradiction bothersome. How is this to be dealt with if one gets pulled over?

nalioth
September 12, 2008, 01:51 AM
MrMex, I don't understand why you regurgitated previous points in this two year old thread.

Why not start a new thread with your question?

As far as answering your question, it is obvious.

If you are caught, you will be processed into the SA jail.

If you have money, you can fight the ambiguity, if not, you'll have a firearms arrest ([maybe] not a charge) on your record.

bdickens
September 12, 2008, 09:29 AM
Thread necromancy!

rino451
September 12, 2008, 09:58 AM
SA also has a jacked up knife code. SA makes a knife w/ blade shorter than x" illegal, where TX law makes carrying of one greater than x" illegal, IIRC. Go figure...

RDak
September 13, 2008, 08:31 AM
In Michigan we have to have shotguns unloaded and in the trunk of the car, (or inaccessible, or taken down, etc., if there is no trunk). :(

The packing.org link isn't working for me.

I always thought carrying an unloaded shotgun in your trunk, while traveling, was generally acceptable in all States? Is this the general rule? Thanks for any info.

csmkersh
September 13, 2008, 08:48 AM
packing.org died some time back. Give this site a try http://www.handgunlaw.us/

San Antonio's anti-long gun ordnance is unenforceable and the city knows it. That doesn't mean that you might not get a ride down town. It's just a means to harass folks. Under Texas penal codes, only handguns are regulated, not rifles or shotguns.

NonConformist
September 13, 2008, 08:55 AM
You can carry a rifle or shotgun loaded in your POV in Texas!

RDak
September 13, 2008, 09:53 AM
Thanks for the info. csmkersh!

Frog48
September 13, 2008, 04:20 PM
You can carry a rifle or shotgun loaded in your POV in Texas!

In addition to shotguns and rifles, as of Sept. 1, 2007, you can also carry a loaded handgun in your vehicle as well (with or without a CHL).

rondog
September 13, 2008, 04:29 PM
FWIW - in Colorado, you can legally carry a loaded rifle or shotgun in your vehicle, but the chamber has to be empty.

TexasRifleman
September 13, 2008, 04:34 PM
In addition to shotguns and rifles, as of Sept. 1, 2007, you can also carry a loaded handgun in your vehicle as well (with or without a CHL).

Concealed. The long guns can remain in open view.

MrMex
September 14, 2008, 12:41 AM
Looks like some good interest in an old thread to me, nalioth.

I have always been proud of the laws i my state and its starting to looks as if san antonio doesnt have the same mentality of the state with which it is in. Does this law have any momentum, negative or positive?

Right Wing Wacko
September 14, 2008, 12:46 AM
FWIW - in Colorado, you can legally carry a loaded rifle or shotgun in your vehicle, but the chamber has to be empty.

I consider that unloaded!

GEM
September 14, 2008, 11:21 AM
Talking to an SAPD guy, he said the law was to give a tool against gangbangers who were buying SKS rifles at the gun show for $99 a while back and then driving around with them in the car. Looking for trouble.

It is problem of the potential hassle of good people and a violation of rights against the possible misuse and predictable bad intentions of some.

As far as I know, the gun rights organizations in TX haven't taken this on. If some upstanding citizen was hassle, perhaps that would change.

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