The Beretta 92FS is the most common pistol in the world


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George Hill
April 21, 2003, 07:49 PM
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/walk/gen55/dgca/beretta_92fs.htm


The Beretta 92FS, its predecessors and its copies are quite possibly the most common pistols in the world today, only the Browning Hi-Power can claim anywhere near the acceptance.

Please, read through this guy's webpage. I like the Beretta, and think it's one of the finest handguns in the world... but I don't think it's the most common.
So I send him an email:

The Beretta, (while one of my all time favorites) is no where near that. Guns ahead of it are as follows:
The Hi Power, The 1911, The PP / PPK and The Makarov

He wrote me back:

I did say the Hi Power might be more common. 1911s are only really popular in the US, you do encounter them in other countries but they're not as common as the Beretta. Note that the two countries that used the 1911 the most, the US and Brazil, currently use the Beretta or a copy of it and they are now in far greater numbers in military service. Yes, there are a lot of 1911s sold on the US commercial market but there's a lot of Berettas sold on the commercial market too and when you add in all the other countries outside the US that use it, I'm pretty certain it's more common.
Depends on what you define as a "1911". Depends on what you define as a Beretta too, if you add in the Taurus it gets complicated.

The Beretta totally blows the PP and the PPK out of the water, not even close, unless you include all the copies of the PP made in Eastern Europe, which aren't really PPs, although they are similar. Remember nearly all the police units that used to use them ditched them during the 1970s and most of them were cut up. (I think Iraq still uses it!) No military ever used it as their main sidearm, even the Nazis mainly used it as a police gun.

I'm not sure about the Makarov, I've never seen an official number of them produced, you might be right, depends on how many are still around.

When I see police departments on the news from other countries, I never see Berettas. When I go to gunshows, I always see plenty of handguns... mainly variants of the above guns or all kinds of other handguns... I do see some Berettas, but not in numbers that would support this claim. Then again, I've not been to a gunshow in London, Paris, or Hamburg...

Is this guy right? Even close to the mark? Or totally up in the night?

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mephisto
April 21, 2003, 08:15 PM
What about military's around the world? would there be enough military handguns to make a big push in numbers? I think there are more maks out there than any other gun.

Boats
April 21, 2003, 08:42 PM
Well the most common handgun in the world is probably all of the variants of the .38 Spec. S&W. Traveling around the country, I see those things for sale everywhere and they still top the crime gun list here in America. S&W also used to do huge export business in its Golden Age of police revo sales, particularly in South America.

I'd say that the P-35, aka The Browning High Power, is probably still the most common pistol out there. It was used by both the Axis and the Allies in WWII. It was allegedly quite popular in the African bush wars of the 60s and 70s and the Mak doesn't have quite the military cachet of the AK for commie insurgents, and so I don't think the ComBloc did quite the booming pistol business as imagined. Totalitarians wouldn't like the idea of small, concealable pistols being as common as fleas or AKs.

NevadaPistolero
April 21, 2003, 09:12 PM
I read an article recently, (wish I could remember where) that the US military only expect to get 5,000 rounds out of their berettas before they turn to crap. Ive owned one right after the military got theirs and I never did like the gun. If they can only expect to get 5,000 rounds out of each gun its a huge ripoff. Considering the 1911 will run forever. I find it hard to believe the article also. Considering all communist block countries use the mak and its variations. Of course the Italian police and military use it...who else does ecept them and our military and a few police departments. I know the pre 60s Berettas are excellent guns. But this is not the 60s anymore. Remember all the trouble the first ones had that were issued to our troops. Apparently they still have major problems with them.
Just my 2 cents worth.

George Hill
April 21, 2003, 09:18 PM
No, they don't have any major problems anymore.

John G
April 21, 2003, 09:19 PM
Berettas are one of the most popular movie guns right now, so I can see where one might be mislead. Real world, the BHP outnumbers Beretta 92s by a wide margin. I can't believe all the 1911's (and knockoffs) ever made are outnumbered by all the Berettas.

Akurat
April 22, 2003, 03:44 AM
I read an article recently, (wish I could remember where) that the US military only expect to get 5,000 rounds out of their berettas before they turn to crap. Ive owned one right after the military got theirs and I never did like the gun. If they can only expect to get 5,000 rounds out of each gun its a huge ripoff. Considering the 1911 will run forever. I find it hard to believe the article also. Considering all communist block countries use the mak and its variations. Of course the Italian police and military use it...who else does ecept them and our military and a few police departments. I know the pre 60s Berettas are excellent guns. But this is not the 60s anymore. Remember all the trouble the first ones had that were issued to our troops. Apparently they still have major problems with them.
Just my 2 cents worth.

:rolleyes: Complete and utter BS.

COHIBA
April 22, 2003, 09:10 AM
i was the RO for the PMO armory for 4 months of my OKI tour in 95. the USMC pay $162 and change for 1 M9.

Island Beretta
April 22, 2003, 09:43 AM
This statement is not far-fetched by any means. I would however change a part of the statement to 'quite possibly the most popular post-WWII 9mm pistol'.

Remember that the 9mm has been the popular round worldwide for military and police use and in addition many countries forbid civilians to hold a bigger caliber gun than the local police. So immediately the most popular gun would have to be on the 9mm or .380 platform. This rules out the .45ACP, hence the 1911- The US Armed Forces move to 9mm would also not have helped the .45ACP cause either. This move also helped a lot of countries to quickly adopt the Beretta has they would not have the resources to do such extensive military trials and pistol development themselves- so they followed the leader. Beretta has also won a number of other trials worldwide since the US Trials, interestingly with the Sig P226 playing bridesmaid on a number of these occasions. One other point is the Beretta had entered the Austrian pistol trials of the early 80s but was beaten by the Glock 17. The Beretta has since improved tremendously and did beat back the Glock in other trials.

Currently whilst the Makorov may be around in large quantities (probably because used in countries with large populations), it is not in use by many countries. So looking around the world, the BHP and its variants clearly leads the way, Sigs are usually assigned to more specialist units, Taurus and S&W seen here and there, Glocks gaining rapidly in popularity (even got a police department in Switzerland to switch from Sig to the G19; Vatican police now uses Glock) and the Berettas and variants seen in large quantities.

I had predicted that Glock would become the most popular by around 2015 but the HK USPs and Walther P99 have grabbed a bit of the Glock's market. The XD is also gaining in popularity and frankly I would buy a XD over the Glock now..

So again it is not a far-fetched statement and could POSSIBLY be the most popular post-WWII 9mm pistol;)

Island Beretta
April 22, 2003, 09:55 AM
(continuing). The biggest threat I see to the statement is the CZ75 and its variants. A hugely popular pistol outside of the West. In fact I heard about the CZ as a top notch pistol long before I ever heard of Sig or Beretta. I still intend to own one of the classic CZs (all steel, DA first shot, cocked and locked SA carry) one day.

Best.

RON in PA
April 22, 2003, 10:52 AM
As usual, lots of hot air and no facts. Can anyone enumerate the countries whose militaries have adopted the Beretta other than the US, France and Italy? No doubt about it, the Beretta 92 is a good weapon, but there are many good pistols out there and most seem to sell, ie., Smiths, Walthers, H-Ks, Glocks, Sigs and Rugers.

George Hill
April 22, 2003, 11:19 AM
Well, I know a lot of former Soviet Union countries all used Maks, and have since switched to CZ-75s and variants there of. If the posts on TFL were correct as I think they were.
Brazil, what does Brazil issue? Taurus?

Berg01
April 22, 2003, 12:09 PM
Based on the fact that I regularly shoot my Sig P228, I seem to prefer guns that do not have manual safeties up on the slide. But this is really a minor point. My range buddy has the 92FS, and I can do OK with it, if I can get enough practice with it. He has gotten to the point where he has gotten pretty proficient with it, it is a reliable and accurate piece. Its all a matter of what you train and practice with, and therefore, what you are used to.

MoNsTeR
April 22, 2003, 12:54 PM
Considering the brief time the Beretta 92 has been in existance, I highly doubt it. I would think even the Walther P38 would be more common.

NevadaPistolero
April 22, 2003, 01:28 PM
akurat
Complete and utter BS.

Maybe you should do your homework before you make BS statements. If facts get in your way do some research on your own. To just blatantly call it BS shows a lack common sense. :neener: If it bothers you than prove it wrong with facts not BS remarks.

BevrFevr
April 22, 2003, 02:00 PM
I don't know how correct this is but I've heard that the cz75 is currently used by more military and police forces than any other handgun.

True? False?

-bevr

George Hill
April 22, 2003, 02:04 PM
Hey Nevad, why don't you show your Math to prove him wrong?

I'm not wanting to start anything, nor am I taking sides. However I started this thread asking a question, and I want details.

Once we have some facts together I am going to email him back.

NevadaPistolero
April 22, 2003, 02:08 PM
Here it is.... http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-m9.html .......read it and weep. Theres plenty of info if you just do a search. This is not the same article Ive read before but it says the same things. The expected service life of the US Military beretta is 5,000 rounds.

coltjeeper
April 22, 2003, 02:23 PM
Nevada,

I figured thats what you were talking about. If you look at the dates there is not one over the year 1990.

The Beretta is doing just fine as far as slide problems are concerned these days. There was at one time a regulation to replace the slide like every 1000 or 3000 rounds or so. But it has since been done away with.

George Hill
April 22, 2003, 02:39 PM
So now that we have beaten this horse post mordem...
Who is using what?

NevadaPistolero
April 22, 2003, 02:42 PM
coltjeeper, thats not what I was talking about, I was saying the expected service life of the US Military beretta is only 5,000 rounds. When I posted that above I was told it was BS. Well heres the proof. As far as the slides go I wasnt even interested in that fact. Also Ive read alot of articles about the Berettas in use in Afghanistan.....the troops are complaining all over the place. They stop working and take to many rounds to knock down the bad guy. It will be interesting to hear what comes out of Iraq about the Beretta. If the Beretta 9mm is so good why do our elite troops disdain it for the .45????? I dont think to highly of the 9mm myself. Regardless of the gun that shoots it. Quite a few Police deparments across the US are getting rid of the Beretta. They just dont cut it. My nephew is a policeman in Colorado and he shot a BG 9 times before the guy dropped with a Glock 9mm. It scared him so bad he went to .45. Believe me it doesnt take 9 shots from a .45 to drop a guy.

Shake
April 22, 2003, 02:51 PM
Don't quote me on this, but. . .

I recall reading that the standard for a service pistol is 5,000 rounds. At 5,000 rounds pistol will undergo routine service (i.e. replace springs, complete takedown cleaning, replace/repair parts, function check, etc.). This does not mean that a pistol will have a catastrophic failure at round 5,001. It simply means the military has determined that time to be optimal for routine maintenance. . .

Shake

John G
April 22, 2003, 02:52 PM
You're telling me he shot somebody in the head/heart 9 times, and the bad guy was still a threat? Whoa.

CZ-75
April 22, 2003, 02:53 PM
And some folks drop dead from a single .22LR.

Conversely, some perps take a mag full of .45 and live.

Shoot someone in the head with a pellet gun and you'll probably get a one-shot stop.


I've seen the figure 5 million bandied about for 1911s, growing every day.

I would think that limiting this guy's assertion, such as he has, to the 92FS puts him way down on the list.

The WHOLE 92 family, including Taurus and Helwan clones might be more competetive, numbers wise. I believe the 92 heritage goes back to the 1950s.

Still, BHP and knockoffs from Argentina, Hungary, John Inglis, etc. probably rule the roost for sheer numbers even now.

Probably the statement he should've made is Beretta 92s have a strong claim to 3rd place.

bountyhunter
April 22, 2003, 03:37 PM
"I read an article recently, (wish I could remember where) that the US military only expect to get 5,000 rounds out of their berettas before they turn to crap."

I'll bet that article was written by a blowhard named hackworth?

Truth is, the Army knows that's a lie. Their minimum approval standard for the M9 trials was that it must average at least 15,000 rounds before serious failure (not fixable in the field). The test result was about twice that number, or 30,000 averaged across all the guns tested. pretty impressive considering how hot NATO ammo is.

The ARMY has range weapons with round counts far in excess of 100,000 rounds. The M9's are harder to kill than a cockroach.

Correia
April 22, 2003, 03:42 PM
As far as military use, I'm only aware of a handful of countries that issue the Beretta. US, France, Italy, and a handful of Asian countries. I believe that Japan uses their own version of the Beretta. I also believe that Taurus is very common in South America, and South Africa makes their own version as well.

The BHP, and the newer DA FNs are in use by Canada, England, Australia, Belgium, and have been used all over the world. Literally. It has got to be the most common.

The CZ 75 dominates in eastern Europe and parts of the world that had Russian influence, as well as a several places in Africa and South America. I know that the CZ is a pretty common side arm in South Africa.

Germany uses HKs. The Swiss army uses Sigs. The Austrians use Glocks. Most Euro cops use Sigs, HKs, Glocks, or Walthers.

Here is the kicker though. In the grand scheme of things the US public market is enormous compared to most of the world's armies. There are probably more Rugers sold in the US than there are Berettas issued to troops.

Heck there are something like a million cops in the US alone. Figure Glock owns about half that market.

So what is the answer?

Who knows.

NevadaPistolero
April 22, 2003, 04:15 PM
Funny thing is the troops are not saying the same things about the M9........of course its easier to kill the messanger......M9 info about half way thru the post.
********

Special Report: War on Many Fronts
ARTICLE 03
SITREPS from Afghanistan


SITREP 1: Poor Small Arms Performance

Editor's Note: The following account of U.S. military small-arms performance written on March 26, 2002, was forwarded to Col. David Hackworth by a friend serving in Afghanistan.

The current-issue 5.56mm (.223 cal.) round, especially when fired from the short-barreled, M-4 carbine, is proving itself (once again) to be woefully inadequate as a man stopper.

Engagements at all ranges are requiring multiple, solid hits to permanently bring down enemy soldiers.

Penetration is also sadly deficient. Even light barriers are not perforated by this rifle/cartridge combination. Troopers all over are switching to the seventy-seven grain Sierra Matchking (loaded by Black Hills) whenever it can be found. Its performance on enemy soldiers is not much better, but it does penetrate barriers.
***********
We're fighting fanatics here, and they don't find wimpy ammunition particularly impressive! Adding to our challenges, our issue M9 pistol (Beretta M92F) is proving itself unreliable. They are constantly breaking. To make matters worse, the 9mm hardball round we use is a joke. It is categorically ineffective as a fight stopper, even at close range.

Some troopers, after numerous, desperate requests, are now being reissued [Colt .45 automatic] 1911s! However, the only ones available for issue are worn out. Magazines are hard to find, and 45ACP ammunition is scarce. We are frustrated here that none of the forgoing seems to be of the slightest concern to people in Washington. It is a damn good thing that we have air superiority and are not yet heavily engaged on the ground. Inferior weapons and ammunition are making us all nervous.
************
Lesson: Here we go again! We're going into war with small arms and ammunition we know to be impotent and (in the case of the M-9 pistol) lacking in durability. What makes the iniquity even worse is that these inadequacies have all been common knowledge since the Gulf War ten years ago. During WWI, American troopers were issued a French light, automatic rifle, as part of an economic sweetheart deal with the French.

The gun, called the CSRG (Chauchat), was notoriously unreliable, and that fact was well known by Americans and French alike. But, it was issued anyway and we will never know how many Americans were needlessly killed as a result. That this kind of casual nonchalance is apparently still standard procedure at the Pentagon, is disillusioning.

We really haven't come very far in eighty-five years. Our young men, in the minds of politicians and military brass alike, are still cannon fodder!.
*******
I beleive it was also proven that the aquisition of Beretta for our military was very flawed. Also it doesnt say anything about servicing at 5,000 rounds It says "SERVICE LIFE" which is not the same as servicing a pistol. The above article is from SFFT.org website. It was written by a guy in the field in Afghanistan and what he sees as a severe problem.
Also I never stated anything about head and heart shots. At least try and read the post before jumping in. Dont add something to my post I didnt say just to make yourself feel good.
Sometimes facts just get in the way of what you believe(theres plenty of police horror stories about the 9mm being inefectual). Thats your problem not mine. Now you can dislike Hackworth all you want...he didnt write the post above. Im not trying to pi** of Beretta owners...just stating facts. By all means buy and shoot the weapon you like the most. Personally I just dont like Beretta or the 9mm round (no matter what gun shoots it). Dont forget our GIs are not using high tech bullets...its ball ammo, big difference. If someone can show proof that the beretta is a superior military weapon please post it, Ive supplied links to back up what Im saying. Just because it is used doesnt mean its the best by any means. Sorry George I wasnt on planning to hijack your post but when Im attacked I fight back.

coltjeeper
April 22, 2003, 04:38 PM
Nevada,

No ones "jumping in" or "putting words in your mouth". Your the one posting your "links" and talking about 5000rd service lifes. Your last post didn't say anything about a 5000rd service life.

George asked for proof about your numbers. Its already been mentioned about Hackworth being a blowhard. If you don't like something, in your case the 9mm or the M9, your not likely to use it or care much about whats written about it. I on the other hand do. And being in the Army and issued an M9, none of my experiences or others, including numerous armorers, reflect what your saying. The M9 is doing just fine in our circles.

These are peoples opinions, being influenced by each sides views. Please don't take that as some sort of personal attack. It was never meant that way and I didn't want you thinking that. :)

John G
April 22, 2003, 05:04 PM
No, NevadaPistelero, You didn't say anything about head/heart shots. That was kind of my point.

Nine hits with a 9mm in the leg don't mean much. SHOT PLACEMENT is the key here. Your post about the Colorado policeman shooting a "BG" nine times with an ineffective 9mm is the same old argument. I suspect they were NOT head/heart shots, and if they were, the bad guy would have ceased being a threat.

There is no magic pistol round. If you can't hit your target, don't blame the bullet.

bountyhunter
April 22, 2003, 05:39 PM
" I was saying the expected service life of the US Military beretta is only 5,000 rounds. ....Well heres the proof. .... Also Ive read alot of articles about the Berettas in use in Afghanistan.....the troops are complaining all over the place. They stop working and take to many rounds to knock down the bad guy. It will be interesting to hear what comes out of Iraq about the Beretta. "

OK, I think you must be quoting the article by hackworth. It has been so thoroughly discredited I did not think anyone even listened to him anymore. He has an anti-Beretta vendetta going and is tring to make his name by constantly claiming the government is killing off our soldiers by giving them defective weapons. he claimed that the M-16 single handedly killed "thousands" of our soldiers when they jammed in firefights. He is a the biggest blowhard you will ever hear from. Here is the original well from which much BS has been flowing:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28212

Serpico
April 22, 2003, 05:45 PM
."..the Beretta M92 (was) built to U.S. Army specifications. One should understand that these specifications were:
Only the frame has a specified service life.
That service life is 5,000 rounds.
The slide is a disposable part.
99% of the military pistols will fire only 80 rounds per year. "


Iit says it was built to army specs..it doesn't mean it won't go further than 5,000...

George Hill
April 22, 2003, 09:38 PM
I passed on some of this information to this character. Here is what he wrote in reply:

Canada has a tiny, tiny Army. Australia uses the Glock 19. Belgium's army is even smaller than the Canadian Army (it's only a couple of brigades).
The UK's armed forces are smaller than the USMC. This is the point I was making. I think it is slightly possible the Hi-Power is more common than the Beretta, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't.
It does not dominate in Eastern Europe, or anywhere that had Russian influence, it's not a Russian gun. It genuinely is not that common.
In Eastern Europe you'll see the Makarov or some weird adaptation of the Walther PP most often. Have a look at all the crap being seized in Afghanistan, mostly Tokarevs and a few Makarovs. No Army anywhere has adopted it as standard issue (except maybe some halfarse outfits in Africa) and only the Czech Police use it.
It was exported to Africa and South America, but in numbers that would even come close to the use of the Beretta in the US? No way. And in numbers that would rival the Beretta copies sold by Taurus, the local manufacturer?

As to South Africa, the standard issue pistol for the SADF is the Beretta 92F, called there the Vektor Z88, made under license. It is also the most commonly sold pistol on the civilian market. Definitely more common than the CZ-75, although a lot of CZ-75s have been sold there. In South Africa they levy huge import duties on firearms, so the local product wins out.

{About the guns used by Germany similar} Indeed, but not in numbers that would rival the numbers of Berettas in circulation, that was by point. All the P220 series guns added together is around a million. H&Ks are far less than that, and Walthers are less than that. Lot of Glocks about but not as many as there are Berettas. Eventually there might be more Glocks but not at the moment.
Japan uses a copy of the P220. The point you're forgetting here is that the US has more guns than almost everyone else put together!

France doesn't issue the Beretta, they use the old MAS 9mm, but the Gendarmerie and the Air Force use it. Spain uses a copy called the Llama M82. Mexico also uses it. Egypt officially uses it, but I'm not sure how widespread it is. So does Lebanon and a fair number of other small countries.

The point you have to remember here is that Brazil, South Africa and the US are the main markets for civilian guns, and in Brazil and South Africa the Beretta is the most popular gun on the market, and it's quite popular in the US also. When you add in US military stockpiles, it adds up.

The Beretta 92 is among the most popular pistols in the world, in terms of total numbers if you include the copies it's definitely in the top three, and it might be the most common of all.


Is this guy even close to being correct? Or is he on some other planet?

John G
April 22, 2003, 09:46 PM
Another planet. He likes the Beretta, and therefore it must be the most popular. I read somewhere a long time ago, that the GP-35, aka Browning Hi-Power, was issued to armies in over 90 countries. The Beretta is a good pistol, I like it a lot. But it is not the most popular on the globe.

(by the way, what's this "deactivated firearms" stuff? Do I understand correctly that this guy and his buddies collect guns that don't shoot?):confused:

Stevie-Ray
April 22, 2003, 10:42 PM
I've always heard (since about 1985 or so) the same as some here, and that is the CZ-75. The BHP has been widely known to be the most prolific pistol in the world's forces, but the CZ was always the one that was going to unseat it, or in some reports, already had.

Don't know this to be true, and of course it's highly debated here. It's just what I've heard.

vanfunk
April 22, 2003, 10:56 PM
I may have been mislead on this point, but I believe that even the vaunted 1911 (of which I am a fan, but hardly a fanatic) had an expected service life of 6000 rounds. It must be known that these "service life" numbers are hardly roadsigns to self destruction, after which the firearms in question will simply fly to bits.

People have told me that the rifling on my .300 Weatherby is only good for 1000 rounds before the accuracy goes out the window. I suppose it should baffle me then that my .300 WM still shoots 1" groups, despite having sent more than a 1000 rounds downrange before the summer of '63.

Is a Beretta toast at 5000 rounds? Not if it feeds, fires, ejects and puts bullets in a circle at any reasonable defensive range. Is the jig up at 10000 rounds then, or 20000, or 30000? Not if it works! If it breaks, fix it. If it doesn't, shoot it!:rolleyes:
vanfunk

George Hill
April 22, 2003, 11:52 PM
Guys, what does service life have to do with the question?

So, the "Most Popular" or most common pistols around are the 1911, the Hi Power, the CZ-75... Just like I said.

This guy's crack smoking had me dizzy.

Island Beretta
April 23, 2003, 12:17 AM
I think you all are being unfair to this 'deactivated' guy. He did allude to the BHP being number 1 and did use the word 'possibly'.

I also made a post in which I pointed out some issues related to the Beretta. Here again I said the BHP and its variants were number 1 and pointed out that the CZ75B and variants might very well be the biggest threat to the 92fs and variants in terms of popularity worldwide. Did any of you read it???????

If any of you are looking for numbers that may be a bit hard to come by, so we go with what we observe..if that is not satisfactory then undertake some thesis, you may even do a dissertation on it..that could make good reading.....

It is also very interesting to see how the 1911 suddenly became the perfect weapon after the Beretta was adopted by the USA!! For those who do not know what I am talking about do some research yourself.:evil:

This 5000 round thing is a Army spec and was req'd of the Beretta.. Berettas have demonstrated longer lifes than that.

To the poster who said the French do not use the Beretta, check that again, they make Berettas under license designated the 92G (decocker only) :scrutiny:

George Hill
April 23, 2003, 12:32 AM
No, the 1911 didn't become the Perfect Weapon until after "High Capacity" automatics were banned. With the limit being 10 rounds, the theory is that if your going to only have 10 rounds, then it's best to make them Big rounds. Another reason (among several) for the soaring popularity of the .40.
The AWB, changed a lot. All the sudden we had 1911's back in vogue, the had 10 round mags pop up all over the place for them. "Pocket Rockets" became popular. And Six-Shooters all the sudden sprouted extra chambers... 7 or 8 shot revolvers are no longer rare.

I'm not trying to be hard on anyone... I was just seeking clarification. I doubted something that I thought I knew and could find no reliable source of information... so I asked the Council here.

I wanted to verify who was smoking the crack... ;)

Island Beretta
April 23, 2003, 12:44 AM
George at the end of the day the outcome is what is important.. (cutting through the fog now) therefore what do you now think about the statement this guy made, do you agree that it is possible??

Also, not going off topic here, but remind me- Didn't the high capacity ban affect only weapons made after 1994. IOW, I could carry a 92fs with a 15 round mag today?

Shake
April 23, 2003, 01:32 AM
NevadaPistolero,

I have read numerous documents on the web related to military arms and all of them speak of "service life" as the amount of time between routine maintenance (not just related to the M9, but other weapons including the 1911). If you want your "service life" to be different with the military's, that's fine and dandy by me.

As far as all the "reports from the field" you seem to be hearing/reading. Aside from the one article by Hackworth (who has been labeled as a hack by many NOT on this board-believe him if you want) do you have any other documentation that our soldiers think they are crap?

I have numerous pictures of our soldiers in Iraq using the M9 in various situations (everal with an M16 strapped to their back). Think about it for a second. . . if you were them, would you risk your life by using the unreliable M9 instead of your rifle, regardless of the situation? Believe me, most of them want to come home in one piece as much as you would in their situation. If they had no confidence in the M9, they wouldn't be using it.

IMHO and all that. . .

Shake

Note: I'm not a huge fan of Berettas, I own a Beretta Elite II that I think is a great pistol, but they are not my favorite.

Handy
April 23, 2003, 12:16 PM
I think the Beretta might well be one of the most common service pistols. Aside from the militarys mentioned above, they are extremely common police pistols in Europe. I saw them in police use in France and Italy.

The older Beretta 951 is also a VERY common military weapon in the middle east. It's basic design is very similar.

1911s are used almost nowhere. I don't know where that came from.


Basically, most countries tend to favor indeginous designs. HK and Walther for the Germans. Llama and Stars in Spain. Sig in Switzerland. But when the country uses something not home-brewed, it seems likely to be a 92 variant (if it's not a BHP).

While the CZ or other designs may be gaining ground, keep in mind that the CZ wasn't available in the west before the late '80s. But the 92 has been around since the early 70's. That makes it one of the oldest common wondernines. Being established is great for business.

Aside from Beretta, there are old SA designs that most organizations are getting away from, and a handful of other European products that are usually more expensive than the 92. US designs have made virtually no inroads in foreign sales. It's a really reliable, safe and cheap service pistol that has been in common usage for 30 years. Why wouldn't it be common?


As for the 5,000 round thing, the military inspects its M9s every 5,000 rounds. I believe they inspected the old 1911s every 7,000.

TheMariner
April 23, 2003, 12:55 PM
As far as the 92 is concerned.... whatever.... doubt it, but whatever.... The most popular caliber is either the 9mm or the .38 Take your pick...
Close follow up? .45 or the .40 would be my guess...

As for teh M-16/M-4, I think the bullet is too small, but I don't make the decisions now do I? My preference would be teh 30-06 or the .308 if you really wanted range... if not, a modified .40 cartridge would be nice... you know, something in between a pistol and rifle round... more appropriate for intermediate ranges of urban settings.

MJRW
April 23, 2003, 01:16 PM
Island Beretta,

You are correct. As long as the magazine was manufactured or imported prior to 94, its perfectly legal in its pre-ban configuration. I believe some states have clauses about not using pre-ban magazines in firearms made or imported after the ban. But the reason the ban affected popularity was simple availability. More shooters pop up each year and old shooters still buy. So demand is constantly increasing while the supply remains the exact same. You could no longer go to the store and get a Beretta and that 15 round magazine. You had to look around for that fifteen rounder and pay much more for it. You could only readily obtain 10 rounders for it. Now, I'm not saying full capacity are not available, but they are not as readily available or guaranteed availability.

George Hill
April 23, 2003, 02:03 PM
George at the end of the day the outcome is what is important.. (cutting through the fog now) therefore what do you now think about the statement this guy made, do you agree that it is possible??

Yeah, it's possible. The question is if it's TRUE. THAT is what I want to know.

Handy
April 23, 2003, 04:44 PM
George,

Why do you claim the 1911 is so widespread worldwide? I can't think of more than a slim handful of users, aside from civie shooters.

George Hill
April 24, 2003, 12:34 PM
The 1911 is approaching 100 years old. It has been in constant production with only small alterations here and there. Count in all the clones and variants... I think it is one of the most common handguns on the planet by weight of numbers. They might not be Issued. But they are still out there serving their owners well.
Beretta 92 has only been out 20 years. Yet its possible that it is now currently today the most "Issued" pistol... but the question is if it is the most "Common".
Then there are all the other ones... Hi Powers, Maks, CZ-75s and what not that have also been around for much longer than the 92 and follow on variants.

Anyways, the question is one that has proven to be a hard one to pin down. There is no solid source of reliable information and just a lot of claims. This is just a question that is bugging me. Today I am going to go the library and do some research. Online searches turn up way too many softair hits and not enought actual data.

mephisto
April 24, 2003, 12:53 PM
How bout a cz-97? Big. 45. and very nice. George how is dinosaur land?


mephisto:evil:

Erik
April 24, 2003, 02:54 PM
P-35s takes top billing. Then arguablely 1911s and a revolver or two. I'd be surprized if the Beretta comes close.

Handy
April 24, 2003, 03:02 PM
I'll ask again:

How the hell is the mostly US issued 1911 going to be one of the worlds most common pistols? Where is this coming from? Hardly anyone even makes ammo for it.

Whatever the most common gun is, it's going to be 9mm Luger if it isn't something like .32. Of 9mms, there are only so many that have been widely issued, and the Beretta is one of the oldest that is still being issued.

bountyhunter
April 24, 2003, 03:04 PM
I wonder if there is an underlying difference in the definition of "most common". If it means, total number in service at this time, I might believe the 92FS could be it. If it means, most guns ever built or used in service, the HP or .38 six shooter would be more likely.

George Hill
April 24, 2003, 03:43 PM
Dino Land BLOWS. Hate this farking place more than I hated a certain little airstrip I was stuck at in Honduras for 2 months. More than I hated the whole freaking country of Panama...
THIS PLACE - is a whole new level of BLOW followed by a whole new kinda SUCKAGE only found on a ship in space with a hull breach.
That, and I really don't like this place.

At least they have an A&W. *sigh*

If you see me in town driving around in my little Subaru - SHOOT ME... But shoot me with the most commonly used automatic in the world today. As soon as we figure out what the heck that is.

Handy
April 24, 2003, 04:42 PM
George,

You seem unhappy with the small, awful place in Neveda you are stuck in.



I live in Fallon, NV. You must be one of my neighbors.

Preacherman
April 24, 2003, 05:24 PM
How the hell is the mostly US issued 1911 going to be one of the worlds most common pistols? Where is this coming from? Hardly anyone even makes ammo for it.Handy, don't forget that the 1911 design has been manufactured all over the world, in many calibers (not just .45 ACP by any means). Brazil and Argentina made it (the Argentine Ballester Molina is a 1911 without a grip safety): the Spanish firm of Star produced it in 9mm. Largo and 9mm. Parabellum by the thousands: China made (and still makes) it: etc. I remember in the South African military being issued a 9mm. Star as my personal defence weapon (horrible abortion of a pistol it was, too... magazines were too long for the 9mm. P. - I think they were originally designed for the Largo round - and jams were frequent). So I would not be surprised if the total production figures for the 1911-type pistol, in all calibers, were not significantly higher than for the Beretta 92 and its clones...

CZF
April 24, 2003, 06:01 PM
Looks like there are two criteria.

One of production, how many Berettas or P35s, CZ75s
were produced.

Another of how popular a given pistol is.

I'll tend to agree that the CZ75 offers some serious competition to the High Power..and that the Beretta 92F, FS is not as popular
outside of the United States as one might think. Take the fact that for the entire country of S. Africa. There is only One source
for Berettas. The SAPS carries the Z88.. a licensed copy. Before
the cheapo MAKAROVs flooded SA. The CZ75 was the best
selling defensive pistol.

Most S. American forces that i know of use 92F copies..the Taurus kind.The police in Brasil using the CZ75BD Police.

You can find Berettas in German and Euro gunshops, but few
forces use them, excepting the FRENCH and Italians.

I still think that with over 65 countries using CZs for either
miltary or police work. That you can find a Cee- Zed in about
any country in the world.

Handy
April 24, 2003, 06:02 PM
Preach,

If you're going to call a Star (which has a different trigger system, no grip safety and zero parts compatability) a 1911, why not just call any roughly similar SA Browning operation pistol a 1911?

Then you can call the Tokarevs, Sig 210s, Radoms, Astras, Arcus, Ballestras, BHPs, etc., etc. I'll bet if you add up all of those then the 1911 is quite common. CZ just started making an SA version of the 75, so that counts, too.


But aside from the US, a couple of S. American countries and some commercial guns made in China (they don't use them, they sell them), where are all those real 1911s?

George Hill
April 24, 2003, 09:12 PM
Message text written by "George Hill"
>Could you please be kind as to point me to your sources of
>information?<

Small Arms Today by Edward C. Ezell, also Jane's Infantry Weapons.

Also I know a lot of people in the gun business (polite name for arms
dealers) and military around the world, which is where I get the rest of it from.

I forgot Chile, BTW, FAMAE make the Beretta 92 under license for the Chilean Army, and they also exported it to some other South American countries. Although I think they might have given up on it, as they have the rights to distribute the Taurus guns in Chile, and the version they used to make was basically identical to the Taurus PT92.

I can't find my copies of these books... I think they are in one of the boxes that got put in the attic. Anyone has one handy?


The CZ-75 does not dominate in Eastern Europe, or anywhere that had Russian influence, it's not a Russian gun. It genuinely is not that common.
In Eastern Europe you'll see the Makarov or some weird adaptation of the Walther PP most often. Have a look at all the crap being seized in Afghanistan, mostly Tokarevs and a few Makarovs. No Army anywhere has adopted it as standard issue (except maybe some halfarse outfits in Africa) and only the Czech Police use it.

It was exported to Africa and South America, but in numbers that would even come close to the use of the Beretta in the US? No way. And in numbers that would rival the Beretta copies sold by Taurus, the local manufacturer?

As to South Africa, the standard issue pistol for the SADF is the Beretta 92F, called there the Vektor Z88, made under license. It is also the most commonly sold pistol on the civilian market. Definitely more common than the CZ-75, although a lot of CZ-75s have been sold there. In South Africa they levy huge import duties on firearms, so the local product wins out.


I gotta find something verifiable. This is driving me nuts.

45auto
April 25, 2003, 09:42 AM
Tough question.
It could almost be a two part question.
How many existing pistols are "laying around" in the world and how many are currently being produced and used?

I have read there may be as many as 5 million 1911 pistols produced, but how many are still functional and in use would be hard to tell. Hard to tell on the 5 million number also. Would the HP have numbers in that ballpark- give or take a million?

If the USA is the major user of pistols in the world, then Glock may take the title in a given time period. Their sales dwarf any other maker in the USA and they sell internationally.

How many Berettas did the goverment contract for over the years?

coltjeeper
April 25, 2003, 10:10 AM
They've taken deliver of somewhere just over 500,000.

PCRCCW
April 25, 2003, 10:55 AM
Forum and respectfully Goerge,
CZF is very knowledgeable about this stuff...he's been there and seen whats happening. Still converses with people all over the world he met while "abroad"....
Ill bet a fair amount that he can verify everything he states........
Hes human and could be wrong...but I absolutely wouldnt be against him :rolleyes:
Shoot well

45auto
April 25, 2003, 11:34 AM
Coltjeeper,
Thanks, that's quite a bit although they have been the official sidearm for about 20 years I believe.
I wonder if they are in the '1911 mode' and will run these for the next 20 years just replacing parts or slowly building up the numbers as needed?
Given the nature of war, I assume the pistol is a pretty low priority for them anyway.

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