State Police change firearms AGAIN....


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IThunter
April 12, 2006, 10:02 AM
Police Guns
- Action 10 News WTHI Staff
4/11/2006 4:56:30 PM



Indiana State Police will soon be carrying new weapons for the second time in less than a year.

Troopers were trained on new Glock 22 guns in December to get used to the new weapon. But now, some of the gun have malfunctioned, causing officials to question the use of the weapon.

And while not all the guns were having problems, all the guns will be changed out. "Having the best weapon available to us is what we are trying to do as a department and that's what we're doing with this transition," says First Sergeant Brian Olehy.

The new weapon of choice is a Glock 17, 9-millimeter handgun. State police officials expect to have all officers equipped with the new weapons over the next few months.

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ball3006
April 12, 2006, 12:24 PM
"we can't hit anything with these guns, can you get us better guns"........Just like deer hunters that can't seem to bring home a deer. Blankity blankity gun won't shoot, gotta buy me a better, read expensive, gun..........chris3

exar
April 12, 2006, 01:06 PM
Looks like all the local dealers will be changing their stock to suit the "if the police use it, it must be good" fad. They carried every single Glock made in 9mm, then switched to everything in .40. Looks like we'll be getting more 9mm in now.

Lupinus
April 12, 2006, 01:37 PM
you mean a glock had a malfunction, why thats just not possible :neener:

So....lets buy more glocks, yeah that makes sense heh.

Otherguy Overby
April 12, 2006, 02:21 PM
Lupinus:
you mean a glock had a malfunction, why thats just not possible:neener:


What with all the new "he man" cops they are recruiting, they may be doing a bunch of limp wristing. :cuss:

Manedwolf
April 12, 2006, 02:34 PM
When you can't cut a board straight or hammer in a nail that's not crooked, blame the tools. :rolleyes:

And I'm betting they didn't change brands because it'd be a PR mess. Gaston Glock, not wanting to have his brand denigrated or lose other contracts, would be well within his rights to have a big public show that it wasn't the guns, it was cops who don't train enough and can't shoot straight.

El Tejon
April 12, 2006, 02:57 PM
I sold guns 15 years ago, when the G22 came out. We received numberous complaints because the guns would not run, mostly FTFs. The Glock rep said that Herr Glock in EastEmpire did not believe us and that people must have been using reloads as he would not budge from his assertion his design was perfect. We asked that the pistols be sent to Austria and reviewed, that was declined as it simply could not be the design's fault.

The Indiana State Police, in 2006, now encounter the exact same problems that I had 15 years ago. Glock reportedly flew in their "expert engineers" to Indianapolis in disbelief. I am glad they came to this realization now rather than later. Better later than never, but I could have told them this at age 20 over 15 years ago.

The Glock 17 is an outstanding weapon. Why they fiddle with it to become Smith & Wesson I do not understand. Unfortunately ISP needs pistols to fight with, not to sell or to review in gun rags.

I'm glad ISP realized enlightenment without anyone being hurt.:)

Autolycus
April 12, 2006, 03:02 PM
I trust the Glock 17/19/26 more than I trust the Glock 22/23/27 series. I love .40 cal guns but I will turn to HK for that. :neener:

MechAg94
April 12, 2006, 04:43 PM
All I can say is that my Glock 22 has been 100% reliable and very accurate for me. I guess that is just my one example though.

Camp David
April 12, 2006, 04:53 PM
... you mean a glock had a malfunction, why thats just not possible

Our local Fairfax County LEO interviewed the locals in our neighborhood a few months ago about some graffitti in a nearby park and whther any of us knew the local kids responsible... as he was speaking to me in my driveway, he invited me to sit in his cruiser... As I spoke to him and he took notes, I observed his shotgun which was wedged between the front seats in a rack... it was rusted at the trigger guard, along the barrel, and the slide was heavily encrusted. I doubt the gun would fire as is and I suspect the shotgun was mounted in the rack and not to be removed.

Malfunctioning police weapons is more of an issue than you realize! The reason for it is simply neglect!

Desertdog
April 12, 2006, 04:58 PM
Malfunctioning police weapons is more of an issue than you realize!
Just wait until they come out with the "owner only can fire" pistols.

isp2605
April 12, 2006, 05:02 PM
This has been the topic on several lists for over a year. The most current:
http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=522065&highlight=g22
and
http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11118
IN SP is not the first agency to have problems with the 22. Last year Glock swapped out all G22s with the IL State Police for an upgraded version. Topeka KS PD is currently having the same problems. There was a PD in Oregon who had the same problem a year or so ago.
The one common thread with every agency that has had problems with the G22 is that Glock initially says there is nothing wrong, then try this, try that, first we've heard of anything like it, try this, try that, must be this problem that is your cause, it's the ammo, it's limp wrist, etc. Inspite of some expert basing his opinion on what he saw while sitting in a squad car one time, the problem with the 22 is not from neglect. All ours were completely stripped and inspected once a year. In addition, twice a year every weapon is inspected and inventoried. With IN SP and Topeka those weapons are brand new, just being issued. So "neglect" is not the issue. Eventually Glock comes around to admitting these are not isolated problems but it's not after you have to dance the dance with them. When it gets down to them believing they're going to lose the agency contract that Glock finally agrees to fix the problem, altho they still won't officially admit there's a problem.

sam59
April 12, 2006, 05:12 PM
Our local P.D. has 80 Officers all carrying Glock 22,23 or 35 for 8+ years and not one problem related to the design features. The only problems encountered was with old style magazines not feeding properly. I noticed a common theme regarding products or even people that are tops in their field, there always seems to be somebody trying to knock them down. Just my observation.

12-34hom
April 12, 2006, 05:22 PM
So much for " Glock Perfection"....:scrutiny:

Owned a G-20 - love the caliber - gun was so - so - sold it - upgraded to a 1911 - never looked back.

In a perfect world - each officer should be allowed to qualify with whatever handgun he or she chooses. But politics must rear its ugly head.

12-34hom.

alan
April 12, 2006, 05:39 PM
I do not own any caliber of Glock pistol. I'm simply an IPSC Shooter, who shoots both 9mm and 45 ACP. I've seen many people using Glock's, quite happily. I have also seen, in a couple of instances, Glock's coming apart, while firing FACTORY LOADS. When I say, "coming apart", I refer to extractors blowing off the pistol. I've heard of worse than this, but that is hearsay.

My own personal experience with fired cases and the Glock is as follows. 45 ACP cases often end up with a visible bulge. Resizing this brass, "range pick-up" stuff, the force needed to resize a fired case in a Dillon 550 Press is noticeably greater than is the case with cartridge cases fired in other pistols, including the 1911 type. Additionally, resized "Glock brass", is noticably deformed, spelled bulged just in front of the extractor groove. Looks almost like a belted case. While ammunitiion loaded in such brass will feed, most of the time, when I encounter Glock Brass, I simply toss it. I note that 45 ACP is a LOW PRESSURE ROUND.

I have never had the slightest problem with 9mm brass that had been fired in a Glock pistol, and as readers know, the 9mm Luger round operates at much greater chamber pressure than does the 45 ACP. The 40 S & W is also a "high pressure round".

It seems as if the Glock, in it's original chambering, 9mm Luger is fine, though the same observation made for the Glock in 40 S & W, and or 45 ACP might be another story. Take your pick.

alan
April 12, 2006, 05:42 PM
I do not own any caliber of Glock pistol. I'm simply an IPSC Shooter, who shoots both 9mm and 45 ACP. I've seen many people using Glock's, quite happily. I have also seen, in a couple of instances, Glock's coming apart, while firing FACTORY LOADS. When I say, "coming apart", I refer to extractors blowing off the pistol. I've heard of worse than this, but that is hearsay.

My own personal experience with fired cases and the Glock is as follows. 45 ACP cases often end up with a visible bulge. Resizing this brass, "range pick-up" stuff, the force needed to resize a fired case in a Dillon 550 Press is noticeably greater than is the case with cartridge cases fired in other pistols, including the 1911 type. Additionally, resized "Glock brass", is noticably deformed, spelled bulged just in front of the extractor groove. Looks almost like a belted case. While ammunitiion loaded in such brass will feed, most of the time, when I encounter Glock Brass, I simply toss it. I note that 45 ACP is a LOW PRESSURE ROUND.

I have never had the slightest problem with 9mm brass that had been fired in a Glock pistol, and as readers know, the 9mm Luger round operates at much greater chamber pressure than does the 45 ACP. The 40 S & W is also a "high pressure round".

It seems as if the Glock, in it's original chambering, 9mm Luger is fine, though the same observation made for the Glock in 40 S & W, and or 45 ACP might be another story. Take your pick.

isp2605
April 12, 2006, 06:00 PM
"Our local P.D. has 80 Officers all carrying Glock 22,23 or 35 for 8+ years and not one problem related to the design features. The only problems encountered was with old style magazines not feeding properly."

We have 2500 Glocks in service, most are 22s but some 23s. The 22s are the only ones experiencing problems. Haven't had any reports with any of the 23s. I was issued 2 different 22s, a 23, and my personal 23. Never had any problems with any of them. However, they SWAT guys who do the most shooting were the first we had who started seeing problems.
IN SP was just getting theirs in the field to replace their Beretta 96s when they started experiencing problems. I don't know what Topeka carried before but they were just getting theirs in the field. The Oregon PD were more like our problem in that they had theirs issued for a while before they started seeing problems.


"I noticed a common theme regarding products or even people that are tops in their field, there always seems to be somebody trying to knock them down. Just my observation."

I'd say not a very good observation, unless you think the IL SP, IN SP, Topeka KS PD, a PD in Oregon, and others are all in some giant conspiracy. If you do belive that, then what would be the reason for the vast LE conspiracy? There's absolutely no reason any LEA would have to "knock down" any gun that the depend upon. You generally hear very good comments about Glock products. I'll agree there's a common thread, but there's no conspiracy or ulterior motive. Denying it and placing one's head in the sand is the position that Glock initially takes until it gets to the point that they look like they'll lose the contract. This kind of response is irresponsible and is a threat to all brothers and sisters of the bacon. Cops got up in arms and indignant when there were a Ford CV's burning when struck in the rear. Agencies across the nation sued Ford. Yet the number of malfuncting 22s is a far greater number than the actual number of CVs that have burnt.
Of the 2100 22s we had in service not all experienced problems. But a number of them did. Enough of a number that it was obvious it wasn't an isolated, built on Friday afternoon gun. If you read the thread from the IN SP you would see they experienced a significant percentage of new guns failing to operate.
No one is trying to "knock down" Glock. What is trying to be done tho is getting an obvious problem fixed.

sam59
April 12, 2006, 07:04 PM
Isp,
I thought you were refuting the first part of my post but it seems like you more or less agree.

"I'd say not a very good observation, unless you think the IL SP, IN SP, Topeka KS PD, a PD in Oregon, and others are all in some giant conspiracy."

I think you took that the wrong way, or I stated it the wrong way. I was not pointing the finger at the Police Departments mentioned and in no way suggesting a conspiracy. I am sure you know of people you work with who are successful and good at their job and constantly have other's trying to knock them down by talking garbage or spreading rumors. This is usually due to jealousy or envy. It seems odd that the Glock is used by 80% + of the Nations P.D.'s (By far #1), but I've noticed a relatively negative feeling about them on this board. This is just my observation from reading post's, so it's not something I am speaking as Gospel. My experience with Smith & Wesson & Beretta has been much worse than Glock so I guess I have a bias toward the Glock. Hope that cleared that up a little, or made it more convoluted.

lostone1413
April 12, 2006, 09:10 PM
I think they would be better off spending some time at the range instead of getting other guns.

Topgun
April 12, 2006, 09:36 PM
But if they kept their OLD guns, they might not get an increase in budget next year.

:D :D

Grey54956
April 12, 2006, 09:51 PM
Ummm...

Glocks are defective/malfunctioning, so let's replace them with.... Glocks!

Whaaaaaa?



This is not intended to be an attack on Glock, as they are fine guns. I am just thinking about every single person I know who has a "I bought a <brand of automobile> and it was a lemon... next time I get <a different brand of automobile>" story. Not once have I met anyone who says, "that Ford was a piece of $#!%, I'm gonna get another one."

Apparently, the same does not hold true for firearms.

isp2605
April 12, 2006, 09:52 PM
"Isp,
I thought you were refuting the first part of my post but it seems like you more or less agree."

I like my Glocks. They're a pretty decent duty gun and I've never had trouble with any of mine. My point is tho there are too many negative reports concerning the 22 to disregard. Ours started showing problems with the SWAT guys who were getting 20K+ and some 50K on their guns after 4 to 5 yrs. It was only the high mileage guns we were having trouble with. I never saw one report of a "normal" use gun having problems. When transitioning to the 22 everyone fired a minimum of 750 rds. Annual qual/training shoots adds a minimum of 500 rds a yr. Late last summer/early fall Glock agreed to a no cost swap out for all our 22s replacing them with an upgraded 22 that has a longer locking block. After dancing around with Glock they finally admitted that the longer block should fix the problem. We found that a couple of other agencies were having the same problem, and getting the same song and dance from Glock, until it looked like they were going to a different manufacturer. Glock then decided to replace their 22s with the upgraded model.
What IN SP, and sounds like Topeka too, are having problems with are 22s right out of the box. Out of the box a duty gun should not be causing them the problems they are seeing. That's just not good business practice nor does it give the guy on the road a warm fuzzy feeling if his 22 will be the next one to malfunction when needed the most. Malfunctions on the range are an annoyance. Can't afford to have that problem on the street. When an agency is having problems like experienced by IN SP and Topeka their command owes it to the guy on the street to make sure things are squared away.

Car Knocker
April 12, 2006, 09:55 PM
I think they would be better off spending some time at the range instead of getting other guns.

What would more range time do to prevent malfunctions? :confused:

sam59
April 12, 2006, 10:03 PM
ISP,
Is the locking block longer where it runs along the slide rails? I have the older model but I did notice it on one of the newer guns. What did Glock say the bigger block was going to solve?

torpid
April 12, 2006, 10:25 PM
They should've got a Glock.


(Sorry, just always hear this in all the other "problem gun" threads.)

isp2605
April 12, 2006, 11:02 PM
"Is the locking block longer where it runs along the slide rails? I have the older model but I did notice it on one of the newer guns. What did Glock say the bigger block was going to solve?"

That's correct. The newer block is a bit longer where it runs towards the front rails. Somewhere on the internet I once saw a picture of the old and new side by side comparing the 2. Unfortunately, I can't find it right now.
According the the Glock engineer who came over from Austria, the longer block is suppose to take some of the flex out of the frame. According to him, with higher rd counts, the more it's shot the more it flexes. This excessive flex was what he said was causing our problems. Maybe it was, but with IN SP and Topeka having problems out of the box, they must be having some other issue. Or maybe the longer block wasn't a fix. I don't know. During late summer/early fall of 2005 we transitioned all our old Glocks for the new upgraded 22. We didn't have the problem IN SP is reporting with new out of the box guns. In fact, I never heard any reports of the new 22s causing problems during the change over shoots. When we transitioned to our original 22 in 1999-2000 it was a 32 hr course with a minimum of 750 rds fired. 2100 Troops with most shooting the 22 (roughly 1.5 mil rds) and I never heard any problems during that time either. So there must be some difference between the 22s that we got late summer and the ones IN SP got recently.
It's definitely perplexing. Some of the high rd count guns caused us problems while the next one issued would run fine.

alan
April 13, 2006, 12:57 PM
Double post due to that old operator error, apologies.

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