"ATF rids Univ. of ninja threat"


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doggscube
April 12, 2006, 11:19 AM
http://www.randb.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2006/04/12/443c71ed40b94

Nice guys. I guess it's now the BATFENM - "ninja masks" added.

-Jeff

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wheelgunslinger
April 12, 2006, 11:28 AM
That's just wrong. "From a federal standpoint"?
Shouldn't these guys be looking for speakeasys or illegal distilleries? Oh, wait, their mission and raison d'etre was decriminalized. I guess that now, without moonshine runners to chase, they have to find the crime where they can.
Wait, there was no crime committed.
Again, every single time I speak to a national representative from my state, I bring up the idea of disbanding the BATFENM.

Stopping a student who was running across campus with a mask on is ridiculous and draconian. This kind of law enforcement is ridiculous, especially since he didn't and wasn't breaking any laws. And, as professional LEA's, they should've known that before they acted.
"He looked suspicious." - What, like an enemy of the people, Comrade?

grimjaw
April 12, 2006, 11:30 AM
Because everyone knows that the majority of criminals and terrorists today use masks, likes ones used on 9/11, oh wait. Well those two guys who traveled around DC sniping people, no not them either. OK, the ones used in Iraq, er, no. The ones used in Afghanistan, hrm. :scrutiny:

Ridiculous.

jmm

geekWithA.45
April 12, 2006, 11:37 AM
BATFE Delenda Est.

("The BATFE Must Be Destroyed.")

Alex45ACP
April 12, 2006, 11:57 AM
The police state is coming...

MacPelto
April 12, 2006, 12:30 PM
In fact, the last person I saw wearing a ninja mask had a vest on, with big letters that said "POLICE".

Hmmmm...weird,

Mac

Henry Bowman
April 12, 2006, 12:41 PM
“Seeing someone with something across the face, from a federal standpoint — that’s not right,” McLemore said, explaining why agents believed something to be amiss.So when we see someone wearing tactical black with a balaclava who "claims" to be a federal agent, we know "that's not right." :scrutiny:

When bandanas are outlawed, only outlaws and JBTs will have bandanas.

50caliber123
April 12, 2006, 12:43 PM
Where does Ninja fit into Alchol Tobacco Firearms Explosives? How does this fall into the ATF's jurisdiction?

Sergeant Sabre
April 12, 2006, 12:49 PM
“Seeing someone with something across the face, from a federal standpoint — that’s not right,”

Ah, I see now that I read that line. I was looking at it from a local standpoint. That's why it didn't make sense to me before.

riverdog
April 12, 2006, 12:52 PM
"From a federal standpoint"? Sounds like a policy statement. Can I have a link to the Federal statute regarding the wearing of masks/ninja/pirate attire on campus? Let's see, 1st Amendment, free expression. The only thing wrong is too many guys carrying Federal badges, looking for something to do.

Baron Holbach4
April 12, 2006, 12:53 PM
What would happen if the student had been a muslim woman wearing a hijab? "FREEZE!" ???

Chalk it up as another kafkaesque encounter.

"Ahh, Mr. BATF, could you take some weight off your knee pressing against my neck?"

riverdog
April 12, 2006, 01:06 PM
Damn, don't'cha just hate those camera phones
http://media.redandblack.com/vimages/shared/vnews/stories/443c71ed40b94-32-1.jpg

Justin
April 12, 2006, 01:09 PM
Perhaps they can also charge him for failing to pay the tax on manufacturing a ninja mask.

Third_Rail
April 12, 2006, 01:19 PM
Giving them enough power to do this and not be reprimanded?


Okay.... we're not a police state, though.

Master Blaster
April 12, 2006, 01:19 PM
Why wern't the ATF agents asrrested for assault, terroistic threatening, risking a catastrophe, felony endangerment, Illegal tresspass, comission of a felony with a deadly weapon??????

Seriously, the sherriff should have arrested them all.

John Hicks
April 12, 2006, 01:24 PM
I've got an idea: why not relocate all those ATF agents to the southwest and let them enforce existing federal laws defining how foreigners must enter this country. It would give them something to do rather than harass ninjas.

It's either genius or stupid: the two are oft very close.

jh

The Freeholder
April 12, 2006, 01:30 PM
Nothing to see here, Citizens! Move along! Move along!

seeker_two
April 12, 2006, 01:37 PM
A few questions.....

1. What was the ATF doing there in the first place? :scrutiny:

2. When did the "T" in ATF become "Textile Enforcement"? :scrutiny:

3. Under what enforcement power does the ATF derive the ability to stake out and bust college parties? :scrutiny:

4. If ninjas are so great, how did this one get caught by the ATF-Troop? :p

The ATF-ers were probably jealous that he looked better in tactical black than they did... :neener:

The Kidd
April 12, 2006, 01:38 PM
Not to hijack your thread but... When the LEOs jump in to defend these buttheads, can you explain why law enforcement wears the black hoods. 'Cause that just screams "TERRORIST" to me. I know it was the "civilian" wearing the mask this time but I've been wanting to ask. And is really necessary to keep your boot on our face...I mean your knee on that kids neck?

Maxwell
April 12, 2006, 01:38 PM
Nice guys. I guess it's now the BATFENM - "ninja masks" added.

That should be "BATFEMPN".
You forgot the machete and pirate thing already?:scrutiny:

Baron Holbach4
April 12, 2006, 01:44 PM
Seriously, the sherriff should have arrested them all.

Has there ever been a time in U.S. history when local or state LEOs arrested federal police? Is this unthinkable? Is it legally possible for a local or state LEO to arrest a federal LEO? Any experts here that can answer this question?

exar
April 12, 2006, 01:46 PM
I sure am glad they stopped that ninja before he had a chance to start chuckin' throwing stars. Those things could put an eye out!:cool:

EasternShore
April 12, 2006, 01:54 PM
Can someone explain to me why after the guy is restrained and on the ground (note his hands are bound) an ATF agent needs to have a knee in the back of his neck? Damn I'd love to see that agent charged.

Zero_DgZ
April 12, 2006, 02:05 PM
"Is it legally possible for a local or state LEO to arrest a federal LEO? Any experts here that can answer this question?"

Yes, it is theoretically legally possible. Even Federal agents are not above the (local) law.

Otherguy Overby
April 12, 2006, 02:09 PM
Could someone inform me as to what useful societal function these thugs fill?

Sheesh, reading KABA these days, it seems an awful lot of cops are shooting them selves, each other and most everyone EXCEPT criminals. I guess our PC society has become imuno-suppressed and can no longer generate antibodies for this sickness.

Hatchett
April 12, 2006, 02:12 PM
So is this undeniable proof that the ATF is actually a group of undercover pirates?

engineer151515
April 12, 2006, 02:13 PM
“Seeing someone with something across the face, from a federal standpoint — that’s not right,” McLemore said, explaining why agents believed something to be amiss?

Seeing a compliant suspect with a knee across the neck - THAT sir, is what's "not right".


The BATF truly needs a "controlling authority".

odysseus
April 12, 2006, 02:25 PM
What I hate about this is there is no explanation why an ATF officer is on a college campus and instead of calling campus security felt it necessary to command the situation of an oddly dressed person himself, ala the camera phone picture. As if no one has seen people dress differently on a college campus, like their might be something simple to explain it - if it even deserves explaining in the first place! :fire: stuuuuupid.

I think it adds something to the list about the hiring of, training, and culture of the BATF. Yet again they have made fools of themselves.

F4GIB
April 12, 2006, 02:29 PM
See knee on neck. See lawyer. See piles of money. Don't you just love cell phone cameras.

thereisnospoon
April 12, 2006, 02:30 PM
Mall Ninjas beware!:what:

Okay, the truth is, seeing this guy runnning around a campus in the "getup" was suspicious, but we are talking about a college campus, where young adults (some "younger" than others) like to relax and enjoy the occasional Pirate vs. Ninja thingy-party-thing.

The F-Troop probably wanted to do the right thing by making sure it was just a prank, skit, whatever, and not the invasion we all fear. hindsight says it would have been better to call in the campus cops and let them handle it...but the F-troop probably couldn't see past the headlines...

"ATF Agents Capture Ninja Squad Thwart Terror Atack!"

LAR-15
April 12, 2006, 02:53 PM
READ THE ARTICLE FOLKS!

"Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearm agents, on campus Tuesday for Project Safe Neighborhoods training.........."

:rolleyes:

Anyway read the end:

"Ransom said Williamson (UGA Police Chief) told him the incident should not have been handled in such a manner and he would file a complaint with the ATF"

So at least one complaint will be filed.......

Autolycus
April 12, 2006, 02:59 PM
That is a good point about the cops dressing up like ninjas. They say that the KKK wore masks so that others could not identify them when they did their evil deeds. Could it be the ATF, like the KKK, knows what they are doing is wrong and is ashamed.

I am glad the young man is filing a complaint. I doubt it will get anywhere though.

odysseus
April 12, 2006, 03:05 PM
READ THE ARTICLE FOLKS!

"Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearm agents, on campus Tuesday for Project Safe Neighborhoods training.........."

Yeah, I did. That's what I mean - what the heck is the Federal ATF doing college campus training on some "Project Safe Neighboorhoods"??? Isn't this outside of their jurisdiction and intent as an organization? Is that a local/state issue - and at most FBI?

What were they teaching? Pay your taxes on firearms, alcohol and tobacco? Be sure to fill out the forms correctly when you buy a firearm?

LAR-15
April 12, 2006, 03:14 PM
The POLICE CHIEF is filing a complaint.

No mention about what the victim is going to do.

wheelgunslinger
April 12, 2006, 03:16 PM
Can someone explain to me why after the guy is restrained and on the ground (note his hands are bound) an ATF agent needs to have a knee in the back of his neck?

Why, for his own protection. Or, in plainspeak, so he doesn't do anything to warrant having the crap beat out of him by the BATF agents in question, of course. Like, breathe, continue his kreb cycle, continue homeostasis, release alpha waves from his brain, not feel the least bit initimdated, etc.
That's the general excuse.
Middle aged white guys with government jobs and badges tend to not like the freedom wallowed in and asserted by college students (not to mention their youthful optimism) since it reminds them that they sold out some time ago and The Man™ owns them. Hence the knee on the neck.
Paging Dr. Freud. Dr. Freud to the student union!

Edit: And I hope the student sues the crap out of the BATF for this and uses the money to get a legal degree, start a foundation for fair practices of Federal agents, or at the least a watchdog organization.

ElTacoGrande
April 12, 2006, 03:20 PM
from a federal standpoint — that’s not right,

There's the problem right there.

If we didn't have the BATF, who would defend us from college ninjas??

HankB
April 12, 2006, 03:28 PM
Has there ever been a time in U.S. history when local or state LEOs arrested federal policeWell, IIRC FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi was indicted by the state for killing Vicki Weaver in Idaho. Sadly, the Feds seized jurisdiction for the purpose of subsequently dropping the charges as part of the official whitewash and coverup. Since there's no statute of limitations on murder, there was some hope that Clinton's successor would do something. (Nothing from the Bushmen. Glad I wasn't holding my breath waiting.)

From the picture posted above, I note that 1) the guy on the ground has a white stripe on the side of his pants - not very Ninja-like, more like part of a jogging suit; and 2) He must be a really, really lousy runner if the NON-UNIFORMED pudgy guys standing around and/or kneeling on his neck caught him. (I guess BATmen like Krispy Kreme, too.)

Shield529
April 12, 2006, 03:32 PM
I guess I can jump in with a few points:

BATFE is cross training in many areas with the locals to combat illegal gun flow. It is much faster with longer sentences for felons with guns in federal court. Not sure though how thier jurisdiction changes to allow this type of enforcment.

Lets be fair about one thing, There is a guy on a college campus wering black clothing and a red bandana covering his head and face. This is a Blood Gang dress and is commonly worn by that gang when commiting gang hits, robbrey, ETC. If the agents in question had ignored him and someone would have been killed by the masked man they saw everyone would be attacking them for failure to act. D$%ned if you do D#$ned if you don't.

Pretty sure making a phone call while resting your knee on a suspects neck is a really bad idea. After secured a suspect should be seated upright and tended to as needed. Staying on the neck is grounds for a valid complaint or civil claim.

Over all not all bad or all good, needs work.

JohnBT
April 12, 2006, 03:38 PM
Virginia law prohibits wearing a mask in public, although there are a few exceptions made.

Here's an excerpt from a newspaper account:

"The officer told me I was stopped for wearing a mask in public.

That's a violation of a state law originally enacted to combat the Ku Klux Klan.

"But it's not an outright prohibition," Benjamin said. Exceptions are made for Halloween and other holiday costumes, protective masks and "modified theatrical productions."

Once police realized what Coppola was up to, they realized his mask fell under the theatrical exception, Powers said.

But because he failed to obey several orders to stop, Coppola was charged with resisting arrest -- obstructing justice, in legal parlance -- a class 1 misdemeanor with maximum penalties of 12 months in jail and a $2,500 fine.

He's due in court on Feb. 24."

Creeping Incrementalism
April 12, 2006, 03:58 PM
Lets be fair about one thing, There is a guy on a college campus wering black clothing and a red bandana covering his head and face. This is a Blood Gang dress and is commonly worn by that gang when commiting gang hits, robbrey, ETC. If the agents in question had ignored him and someone would have been killed by the masked man they saw everyone would be attacking them for failure to act.

You're joking, right?

RevDisk
April 12, 2006, 03:59 PM
Ransom said he thought a friend was playing a joke before he realized officers had guns drawn and pointed at him.

Uh... Just out of curiousity, but is that standard LEO practice on a college campus?

During my time at college, most campus police would have simply asked why the student was wearing the mask. Not drawn their sidearms, wrestled the kid to the ground, and planted a knee while restrained.

Hope the kid files and wins a lawsuit.

Shield529
April 12, 2006, 04:37 PM
Why would I be joking. Would you like a link that I find useful where new gargs enter the area
http://www.knowgangs.com/gang_resources/bloods/bloods_001.htm

There now you may look for yourself.

Kodiaz
April 12, 2006, 06:58 PM
I think they were there to see if they could find some potential arsonists to recruit. Shield college campuses have books. Books are like kryptonite to gang members.


Come to think of it do you think if an ATF agent touches the bill of rights that they will turn to ash like a staked vampire?

Nightcrawler
April 12, 2006, 07:13 PM
I think the ATF is in league with the Pirates. Pirates, being the age-old nemesis of Ninjas, will sink to unbelievable depths to win their eternal war.

I too am curious as to why F-Troop was hanging around a college campus. I like also how their first reaction, upon seeing a masked, but obviously unarmed man, was to pull their guns on him in the middle of a campus crowded with students. Shots fired not only would've endangered countless bystanders, but would've started a panic to boot.

*sigh*

Hmm...ATF on campus...that sounds familliar... :D

Erebus
April 12, 2006, 07:41 PM
Virginia law prohibits wearing a mask in public, although there are a few exceptions made.

Does Virginia law apply to Georgia?


Lets be fair about one thing, There is a guy on a college campus wering black clothing and a red bandana covering his head and face. This is a Blood Gang dress and is commonly worn by that gang when commiting gang hits, robbrey, ETC. If the agents in question had ignored him and someone would have been killed by the masked man they saw everyone would be attacking them for failure to act. D$%ned if you do D#$ned if you don't.

Jogging down a commonly used walkway in broad daylight?

How was anything more than, "Why you wearin the mask kid?", necessary?

fal 4 me
April 12, 2006, 08:06 PM
Lets be fair about one thing, There is a guy on a college campus wering black clothing and a red bandana covering his head and face. This is a Blood Gang dress and is commonly worn by that gang when commiting gang hits, robbrey, ETC. If the agents in question had ignored him and someone would have been killed by the masked man they saw everyone would be attacking them for failure to act. D$%ned if you do D#$ned if you don't.

And college campuses are known to be popular gang hangouts, expecially in broad daylight. :banghead: I guess some people will go to whatever length necessary to defend law enforcement.

Edit: Erebus beat me to it, I hate it when work distracts me from The High Road.

Shield529
April 12, 2006, 09:47 PM
Reality check, there are members of Bloods, Crip Etc. in college on every campus in America. I have worked for campus police and yes they do commit crimes in broad daylight just like all other criminals. There are also gang member attorneys, law enforcement, firefighters, and a LARGE number in the U.S. Military. They do not all fit into your mental picture of a gang member.

I do not go to any lenghts to defend law enforcement read my post again. But if your wife was mugged or raped by a masked man on campus and you found out ANY law enforcement agency saw that man and did not check it out you would be up in arms, don't lie.

CrisOR
April 12, 2006, 09:52 PM
There is a guy on a college campus wering black clothing and a red bandana covering his head and face. This is a Blood Gang dress

Black and Red also happen to be the colors of the University of Georgia, where this incident occurred. I'd expect 50% of the people on campus to be wearing those colors.

Lupinus
April 12, 2006, 10:24 PM
The police state is coming...
To late, at this rate we are. The norm or not when it is allowed without being punished as the rest of us would be it is close enough.

.41Dave
April 12, 2006, 10:40 PM
Holy Cow! When you consider the following:

There are also gang member attorneys, law enforcement, firefighters, and a LARGE number in the U.S. Military. They do not all fit into your mental picture of a gang member.
and
There is a guy on a college campus wering black clothing and a red bandana covering his head and face. This is a Blood Gang dress
and
Black and Red also happen to be the colors of the University of Georgia, where this incident occurred. I'd expect 50% of the people on campus to be wearing those colors.

The only logical conclusion is that at least 50% of the University of Georgia is a seething hive of Blood Gang activity! No wonder our valiant BATFE anti-ninja forces were on high anti-skinny-guy-with-a-bandana alert!

mp510
April 12, 2006, 11:06 PM
Has there ever been a time in U.S. history when local or state LEOs arrested federal police? Is this unthinkable? Is it legally possible for a local or state LEO to arrest a federal LEO? Any experts here that can answer this question?

Yes, it's been done- well sorta. The feds make it very difficult to say the least. An Idaho DA ultimately got Federal Appeals Court aproval to bring charges against one of the FBI snipers from the Northern Exposure incident. Unfortunately, the Feds had them in court so long, and dragged it out so well that the DA gave up.:(

antarti
April 13, 2006, 12:46 AM
There are also gang member attorneys, law enforcement, firefighters, and a LARGE number in the U.S. Military. They do not all fit into your mental picture of a gang member.

Umm.. at my Alma Mater there are usually battles of between 50-800 people (depends on time of year) beating heck out of each other in all manner of odd colorful dress. It's called the SCA. A couple hundred Vikings, Spartans, Goths, and Roman Legionaires beating tar out of each other with period armor & rattan weapons. They might have had to get one of the ATF spy-planes in the air and call in support from Delta to stop that "gang" from endangering everyone.

Despite my misgivings, you had me right up to the firefighters part.

Easy enough to understand if you term attorneys and law-enforcement "gangs", or as having planted gang members among them, but the firemen?

You're right about the mental picture part. I wouldn't have suspected the "gangbanger" types as eager to sign up to run into burning buildings and save babies. That's the most charitable thing I've heard about them my entire life.

Shield529
April 13, 2006, 02:04 AM
Talking to people on this board has become about as productive as arguing on democratic underground. You all have your minds made up about every issue and you are always right. Everyone else is a police apoligizer or idiot determined to take away your rights.
Keep this attitude up and lets see how many people you can drive away from your side.

PATH
April 13, 2006, 02:23 AM
Running with a mask on is not a crime. Kneeling on someones neck after the cuffs are on is just plain stupid and dangeous.

The bottom line is that the ATF will skate again. They are the Feds and they can do what they want with impugnity. Follow up if you like but nothing will come of this incident. Besides they are from the government, they are there to help!;) :neener: :D

Cosmoline
April 13, 2006, 02:30 AM
“Seeing someone with something across the face, from a federal standpoint — that’s not right,” McLemore said, explaining why agents believed something to be amiss.

:D :D :D I really, really wonder where that's located in the CFR.

But hey, it's sure nice to know the "sheep dogs" at the BATFE etc. are protecting us "civilians" from all the mean scary things in the world.

Cosmoline
April 13, 2006, 02:35 AM
Lets be fair about one thing, There is a guy on a college campus wering black clothing and a red bandana covering his head and face. This is a Blood Gang dress and is commonly worn by that gang when commiting gang hits, robbrey, ETC.

So they were on campus to crack down on the ninja gangs?

Face it, these are a bunch of cowboys looking for a reason--ANY reason--to justify the enormous chunk of budget their agency sucks up. If there's not enough of a threat, they'll invent a threat. And they're so indoctrinated in combat mentality they can't tell the difference between a college kid playing dress up and a member of the Blood Gang.

There's no excuse, and all involved should be fired. Frankly, the entire organization should be terminated. They're far worse than the evils they claim to combat.

Everyone else is a police apoligizer or idiot determined to take away your rights.
Keep this attitude up and lets see how many people you can drive away from your side.

Since when were these thugs EVER on our side? This isn't local law enforcement we're talking about. It's our sworn enemies. If they had their druthers, they'd have everyone on this board in prison and our iron melted down. They do not protect and serve. They assault and harass. The police are at times a necessary evil. The BATF is just plain EVIL. I don't want them on my side, I want them to vanish forever. It was only supposed to be a small tax collecting agency, but it's grown into a Jr. Birdman version of the FBI. Now it apparently even views campus security as part of its mandate!

Telperion
April 13, 2006, 02:38 AM
“Seeing someone with something across the face, from a federal standpoint — that’s not right,” McLemore said, explaining why agents believed something to be amiss.Oh really?

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=38362&stc=1&d=1144907517

Cosmoline
April 13, 2006, 02:54 AM
:D :D

I love how his tacticool mask is covering his eyes, too. He reminds me of Chris Farley.

justashooter
April 13, 2006, 03:06 AM
when i see guys in black ninja garb, i think munich. maybe that's because i'm old enough to remember it happening.

when i see guys in black ninja garb, i think - squeeze, repeat.

Lucky
April 13, 2006, 03:09 AM
On the bright side it shows that your gangs have adopted federal 'Equal Opportunity' measures, whereby before gangs seemed like they were just plain racist an unfair in who they admitted. Now you have skinny white guys with fuzzy red hair who fit the profile of 'Bloods'. Kick ass.

grimjaw
April 13, 2006, 03:17 AM
Reality check, there are members of Bloods, Crip Etc. in college on every campus in America. I have worked for campus police and yes they do commit crimes in broad daylight just like all other criminals.

I have not heard about this epidemic, but I haven't been keeping up. Is it common for these crimes to be perpetrated wearing masks? Is there an APB for that description? I've heard of gang members being identifiable by their bandanas, but that was years ago.

But if your wife was mugged or raped by a masked man on campus and you found out ANY law enforcement agency saw that man and did not check it out you would be up in arms, don't lie.

Was this a fact on the Georgia campus: a crime had been committed by a masked man? Since we're talking about what if's, what if the kid thinking it was a joke poked at them with his plastic ninja sword and they shot him instead. They could have just shot him for running away instead, similar to the incident in Britain. Would they have been justified in doing so? Preemption is the word of the day, after all.

“Seeing someone with something across the face, from a federal standpoint — that’s not right,”

What is "right" from a federal standpoint, I wonder? If they happened upon the entire lot of ninjas at the event the student had just left, would they all have been considered suspicious? Maybe some kid who just didn't like the ninja/pirate event or its particpants called in the 'suspicious individual' in the hopes that something like this would occur. Stranger pranks have happened on college campuses.

Talking to people on this board has become about as productive as arguing on democratic underground. You all have your minds made up about every issue and you are always right. Everyone else is a police apoligizer or idiot determined to take away your rights. Keep this attitude up and lets see how many people you can drive away from your side.

Well, I don't find many boards with as much productive conversation as this one, IMO. It might be a long spell in between them, but it's ten year drought most other places. Does everybody have to agree with you for a thread to be productive?

These comments are samples from the story thread on redandblack.com.

Running around with a bandana covering your face is not using intelligence in today's society.

A nice person whose lucky he wasn't sent to Guantanamo. People need to understand that we are at war.

So you're telling me that if i go for an early morning jog in the winter and cover my face to keep warm that I should expect to be tackled by police with their guns drawn?

I agree with 'realistic alumni', if you're going to walk around campus with a red bandana on your face, your going to get a knee in your neck and a gun in your temple. That's America people, love it or leave it.

All you people asking what a pirate vs. ninja event is...it was "Holy Spirit Week" at the Wesley Foundation and this was just one of the fun things that they did for the students. He wasn't dressed like an ninja for no reason and how would you feel if some random cops that were guests on the campus pinned you to the ground and held you at gunpoint after you told them that you didn't have a weapon. The situation was handled very poorly by the ATF agents and I am just glad that Mr. Ransom is ok and I hope that he can get some form of repay for their harassment. He is THE nicest guy in the world. I'm glad cops are trying to keep us safe but that was WAY out of line.

So let's sum up here. A guy dressed in dark clothing, and wearing a mask over his face is jogging across campus, and when federal agents call for him to stop, he ignores them (Thinking that its friends playing a joke...according to the article) so they pursue, and detain him, and once they determine he's broken no crime they release him, and according to some, this makes them the Goons?

So to "realistic alumni"... it is a matter of context. Strange things happen on a college campus. You've got lots of young people. Arguably, these officers were poorly trained to be making snap enforcement decisions in this kind of environment. And it showed, between the selection of this kid, and his treatment.

First off, that's one of the funniest things I've read. Second, the rest of you college kids should quit whining....he was acting in a questionable manner, and the various officials got a report and acted on it. Had they not, and had he been an actual terrorist and blew up a building and killed people, you'd be the same idiots crying that someone should have done something. Get an education, grow up, have a family and see how things change.......better yet, hold a rally / protest by the Tate center and feel that you've REALLY accomplished something.....bunch of whining tools......

In today's world, why wear bandannas covering your whole face in public? But most importantly, why run when you're not guilty? I think it's pretty funny...Shoulda been a pirate!

What a weirdo. I hope they slapped some sense into him. Just for being such a lunatic, he deserves everything he got. A ninja vs. pirate event? Seriously? How does that even work? What does that even mean? I think Jeremiah should just stick to playing Dungeons and Dragons with all the other dorm rats. He should only leave the dorms to scurry on over to Papa John's with his ninja friends.

Not having a job where people would want to kill me and needing to eliminate possible threats, I can't say for certain, but perhaps that type of behavior works better then the anticipated "Please stop running, we don't know your intent." ???

You know, last winter I noticed a lot of women with garb covering parts of their faces. I'm gonna deputize myself and TAKE THEM DOWN. I'm looking at YOU Mrs. Jackie Kennedy!

What a stupid idiot! Still laughing myself to death over this one. Tell the kid to put on his "big boy pants" as my first grade teacher/wife would say and grow up! If you sneak around dressed like an idiot, expect to be treated as such. Gawd how stupid can you get?

It's a sad day when UGA police have to protect students from armed federal agents prowling our campus in search of victims. For the safety of all students, faculty and staff could Project Safe Neighborhoods please meet off-campus from now on?

so much for "we will not let the terrorists take away our freedom"!!!

Jeremy is prob. one of the nicest guys in the world. This is crazy! Apparantley, there was a nice little string of "f" words directed his way also. He did not deserve that treatment once they realized he did not have a gun.

Final Score. ATF:1 Pirates:0 Ninjas:0 :rolleyes:

jmm

jeepmor
April 13, 2006, 03:22 AM
And everyone thinks I'm a lunatic for thinking our government doesn't have a very specific agenda being followed....sheesh.


Which of us will be the next Thomas Jefferson!

grimjaw
April 13, 2006, 03:25 AM
when i see guys in black ninja garb, i think munich.
when i see guys in black ninja garb, i think - squeeze, repeat.

When I see a skinny kid with long hair on a college campus, wearing striped jogging pants and black and red bandanas covering his head and face, I think 'silly idiot.'

jmm

Cosmoline
April 13, 2006, 03:35 AM
Terrorists haven't bothered wearing ninja outfits for decades.

Except the ones on gob'ment payroll, that is.

Johnny_Yuma
April 13, 2006, 03:52 AM
(That just wasn't civil. --Don Gwinn)

Baron Holbach4
April 13, 2006, 10:37 AM
http://www.redandblack.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2006/04/13/443dd07e60128

Titus
April 13, 2006, 11:07 AM
After telling agents he only had his keys, wallet and cell phone on him, Ransom said the agent pinning him to the ground responded that, being trained officers, they would not mistake any of those items for a gun.

I'm the only one professional enough to tell what's a gu... Oh nevermind. :)

Does being an ATF agent require a college degree? Maybe they don't remember what kind of stuff goes on there, which is how they end up standing on a guy's neck for trying to get people into the notorious Methodist Gang... :)

psychophipps
April 13, 2006, 11:57 AM
My personal favorite is the perfect picture of that rather chunky agent with his knee on the neck of an obviously detained suspect. Well, Agent Asshat, we can certainly see where that was necessary in that picture! All those agents around you might not be enough to stop that 150-lbs geek from getting up without the use of his arms and Jackie Chan all of you guys before doing a runner. :rolleyes:

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

TexasRifleman
April 13, 2006, 12:12 PM
Talking to people on this board has become about as productive as arguing on democratic underground. You all have your minds made up about every issue and you are always right. Everyone else is a police apoligizer or idiot determined to take away your rights.
Keep this attitude up and lets see how many people you can drive away from your side.


Well, I'd go ahead and leave now. I'm sure there are other boards out there that will welcome your thoughtful posts.


Bye.....

Master Blaster
April 13, 2006, 12:17 PM
After telling agents he only had his keys, wallet and cell phone on him, Ransom said the agent pinning him to the ground responded that, being trained officers, they would not mistake any of those items for a gun.

The dialogue between Ransom and the agent went back and forth, with the agent insisting Ransom had a gun, and Ransom insisting he was unarmed.

Ransom said he explained to the plainclothes agents, that he was participating in an event, and that other costumed people were at the Wesley building.

“I told them, ‘There’s 30 other people dressed up as pirates and ninjas’,” Ransom said.

During the incident, several people from Wesley approached the scene to talk with police and explain the group was having an event.

University Police Chief Jimmy Williamson said he was unhappy with how the situation was handled, but later had a “constructive talk” with an ATF supervisor.

“I can see how as law enforcement officers, they interpreted what they saw as suspicious,” Williamson said, “but the police have to show a bit of due diligence.”



Now lets be fair to Agent Schmuckatelli, He had to put his knee into the students neck and back and hold him to the ground with his knee. Because that is the proper procedure in the ATF manual for situations where there may be a gun involved AND....

When you left Your JACKBOOTS AT THE OFFICE

seeker_two
April 13, 2006, 12:25 PM
After telling agents he only had his keys, wallet and cell phone on him, Ransom said the agent pinning him to the ground responded that, being trained officers, they would not mistake any of those items for a gun.

There's just something hilarious about hearing those words coming from an BATF-er's mouth... :D

He must have graduated from the Lon Horiuchi School of Firearm Identification ("No, that's NOT a baby. Open fire...") :rolleyes:

carlrodd
April 13, 2006, 12:26 PM
Which of us will be the next Thomas Jefferson!

i'd prefer to see a whole bunch of Sam Adams running around.

Justin
April 13, 2006, 12:28 PM
Did anyone else notice the name of the newspaper?

That's right. It's called "The Red & Black."

Obviously it's an organized print propaganda tool for the Bloods.

belton-deer-hunter
April 13, 2006, 01:17 PM
i am not defennding the batf but if i was a member of law enforcement and i saw "anyone" anywhere running whereing a mask i think that would be reason to stop and find out what was going on. now with that being said if i tried to stop someone and they kept running i might not be as nice when i caught them but other than that they did really screw this one up big time.

Creeping Incrementalism
April 13, 2006, 01:37 PM
Reality check, there are members of Bloods, Crip Etc. in college on every campus in America. I have worked for campus police and yes they do commit crimes in broad daylight just like all other criminals. There are also gang member attorneys, law enforcement, firefighters, and a LARGE number in the U.S. Military. They do not all fit into your mental picture of a gang member.

I think everyone else pretty much said all there is to say in response to this, but I was wondering about one more thing--how many white guys are in the Bloods?

am not defennding the batf but if i was a member of law enforcement and i saw "anyone" anywhere running whereing a mask i think that would be reason to stop and find out what was going on

belton-deer-hunter, notice how none of the students interviewed were the slightest bit alarmed by the kid in the ninja suit? College campuses are not exactly normal, so you should know your environment before you start acting on your instincts.

riverdog
April 13, 2006, 02:23 PM
notice how none of the students interviewed were the slightest bit alarmed by the kid in the ninja suit? College campuses are not exactly normal, so you should know your environment before you start acting on your instincts.It's called SITUATIONAL AWARENESS, often referred to as S-A by those like the BATFE agents who are always aware of all situations, just ask them; they know the difference between a Crip and a Ninja as well as the difference between a cell phone and a gun :rolleyes: I hope the kid finds a lawyer to take his case for a percentage.

JohnBT
April 13, 2006, 02:48 PM
"Does Virginia law apply to Georgia?"

Obviously not. Well, I guess it wasn't obvious to you. You could have used your time constructively to look up the Georgia law or laws if you had a question.

John

JohnBT
April 13, 2006, 03:03 PM
Okay, I've found on line references to Georgia having a misdemeanor law against wearing "masks or hoods" in public, but I haven't found the chapter and verse of the state code yet.

John

Shield529
April 13, 2006, 03:25 PM
Wow, racist comments, gov. hate, and name calling all in one thread. You sure are proving the anti-gunnies wrong now

Cosmoline
April 13, 2006, 03:43 PM
So in order to justify our ownership of firearms we have to kowtow to the antis and approve of the ATF's latest excesses?

That makes a whole lot of sense.

I don't know if you're partisan or just ill informed, shield, but the fact is this organization has been out to get us for decades now. Their anti-gun antics are legendary, from harassing gun show vendors to trying to shut down dealers. They will make a point of interpreting every law to outlaw the maximum possible number of firearms, and they make a living off entrapment. They were never supposed to become anything more than an adjunct tax enforcement office with a speciality in collecting taxes and license fees from dealers in their namesake goods. But in the past thirty years they've expanded their mandate to the point where they suck in millions and see no limit to their jurisdiction. They view us as a menace. They're the poster children of what's wrong with federal law enforcement. Their monumental screwups led to both Ruby Ridge and the Branch Davidian tragedies.

Mad Chemist
April 13, 2006, 04:28 PM
So is this undeniable proof that the ATF is actually a group of undercover pirates?

Hatchet, you beat me to it.:cuss:

JH

Justin
April 13, 2006, 04:31 PM
Okay, I've found on line references to Georgia having a misdemeanor law against wearing "masks or hoods" in public, but I haven't found the chapter and verse of the state code yet.


Phew! That was a close one!

Can you imagine what it would be like if they didn't have that obscure law on the books?

I'm so glad to know that the BATboys were just doing their job of taking down those nefarious people who dare to break the law by going to parties while wearing masks!

RocketMan
April 13, 2006, 04:48 PM
So at least one complaint will be filed.......

So, at least one complaint will be ignored...

Shield529
April 13, 2006, 04:51 PM
No one has said "kowtow" to the ATF excesses. I said take everything on a case by case basis while looking at all the circumstances. No one likes or agrees with Ruby Ridge or Waco, but this was different and in no way on the same level.
I have tried to look at this incident from all angles. Yes there are skinny white gang members, and in the world there are dangers in daylight otherwise people on this board would not carry in the day. No I did not know red and black were his school colors, and that should be taken into account. I do not know every school and that does not make me an idiot.
I think based on information out there they acted correctly up until leaving the knee on the neck, that is dangerous and could have resulted in injury. There was no injury however, no false charges, no imprisonment, and he did not just come up missing. So I don't think this is the shining example of a police state.
If you throw out the evil police everytime there is any encounter it comes across as tin foil hat parinoid and is counter productive. Look at my history I do not agree with every .gov action but this was not an evil excess sorry.

Justin
April 13, 2006, 04:59 PM
...but this was different and in no way on the same level.

Yeah, they didn't shoot his dog, burn his house down, or beat his girlfriend until she miscarried.

For the ATF, this was downright courteous.

Cosmoline
April 13, 2006, 06:02 PM
I think based on information out there they acted correctly up until leaving the knee on the neck

You're completely missing the point. They had NO RIGHT to act at all, and when they did act they once again put their foot right in the brown stuff. That's why we leave campus enforcement to the people who have a better sense of what's a real threat and what's just a ninja vs. pirates game. This is the sort of thing that happens when you give an autonomous federal agency broad brush authority to do what it wants when it wants to whom it wants. One FUBAR situation after another.

antarti
April 13, 2006, 06:12 PM
I bet within 6 weeks the NSA is going to want weblogs from

http://www.realultimatepower.net/

So that this new menace can be stopped for once and for all.

odysseus
April 13, 2006, 06:48 PM
Yeah, they didn't shoot his dog, burn his house down, or beat his girlfriend until she miscarried.

I get the dog, I get the house - but is the girlfriend line about something that really happened? I feel like I am missing something...

tyme
April 13, 2006, 07:06 PM
quickest link I could find:
http://www.boogieonline.com/revolution/firearms/enforce/katona.html

Otherguy Overby
April 13, 2006, 07:08 PM
I get the dog, I get the house - but is the girlfriend line about something that really happened? I feel like I am missing something...

Yes, that and stomping on kittens, too.

Daniel T
April 13, 2006, 07:48 PM
Shield, you are one of the more reasonable LEO's that will post on this board, and I for one appreciate your input. I personally think you're getting far too much flack for your very mild comments.

I also think that this is one of those times where you shouldn't put any effort into defending the actions of a LEO. The ATF guys obviously over-reacted to a kid wearing a mask of his college colors, while on that college's campus. Now, I understand you didn't know that, but the jerk with his knee on the neck of that kid sure as hell should have, since he was on that campus!

odysseus
April 13, 2006, 08:04 PM
Thanks Tyme, based on what you found, I found this:

http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/nra.bush.letter.html

For Immediate Release - May 10, 1995

For Information Contact: Bill Powers (703) 267-3820

Statement by Wayne LaPierre Executive Vice President, National Rifle Association

(Washington, DC) -- Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the National Rifle Association of America, issued the following statement today:

"I am releasing a copy of a letter from NRA President Tom Washington to former President George Bush. It speaks for itself and I can only add that the issue has been joined on matters of critical importance to our nation's future. The American public needs to know the truth about BATF abuses. We will meet our critics in congressional hearings and I am confident that when all the testimony is in, our words and actions will be completely vindicated."

May 10, 1995

President George Bush
P.O.Box 79798
Houston, Texas 77279-9798

Dear President Bush:

I was surprised and saddened to see your letter of May 3, 1995. I can understand and sympathize with the deeply emotional consequences you are enduring as a result of losing a close friend in the Oklahoma City tragedy. We, too, have NRA members who were victims and rescuers that were scarred by that most horrendous crime.

I'm sorry that you have chosen to unequivocally condemn NRA's words without first seeking an explanation. Surely, a private exchange between us might persuade you to at least reserve a final opinion until all the facts are examined. Such a course of action, I believe, would have better served the country than what now will become a public disagreement that can only lead to more polarization in these troubled times.

Within hours of the bombing, NRA issued a statement declaring that "The National Rifle Association of America has nothing but contempt for terrorists or hate groups that attempt to disguise themselves as patriots." Deploring the monstrous act, we called for the death penalty for those found responsible, praised federal, state and local authorities and declared that law enforcement has "... no stronger ally than the NRA." Following the President's call on Sunday, April 23 for a "lowering of voices," NRA began the week of April 24 with no intention of seeking political advantage from such a calamity. By nightfall, Mr. Clinton, Congressman Schumer, anti-gun groups and members of the media had begun a full frontal assault on so- called "hate-speech." Our offices in Washington were immediately flooded with press inquiries demanding that we defend numerous statements we had made in recent months with regard to the conduct of the BATF. Each day continued to bring new participants in the NRA bashing frenzy that today grips the national media. NRA has been accused of contributing to an atmosphere that encourages unstable people to commit violent acts. Our words have been characterized as grievous, defamatory, insensitive distortions of truth. In return and with respect for the heartbreaking aftermath the nation has witnessed, we have tried to respond with a measured tone. We have argued calmly and responsibly that our position has merit and that a fair, unbiased analysis is the only way to address these issues. After exhaustive interviews with The New York Times, The Washington Post, NBC, CBS, ABC, Time and dozens of others, it is disheartening to see such enthusiasm for stories on NRA rhetoric and so much reluctance to balance those presentations with fact. As someone who has been victimized yourself by such media tactics, I would have expected you to allow us to offer information that was not being provided by the press.

On January 10, 1994, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), the NRA and other organizations appealed to President Clinton for the appointment of a national commission to "... investigate serious allegations of abuse by federal law enforcement agencies and to recommend steps that must be taken to reduce constitutional and human rights violations by federal law enforcement personnel." Citing "... serious allegations of abuse, including the improper use of deadly force...", our letter offered specific examples of black suited, masked, massively armed mobs of screaming, swearing agents invading the homes of innocents:

DONALD CARLSON

On August 25, 1992 at about 10:30 p.m., Donald Carlson returned to his home in Poway, California, opened his garage door with a remote control device, simultaneously illuminating the garage so that Drug Enforcement Administration agents conducting surveillance from nearby could see inside. Just after midnight, when Carlson was asleep, a group of DEA agents burst into his house. Thinking they were robbers, Carlson grabbed his pistol to defend himself. He also dialed 911 for help. The agents shot Carlson three times, twice after he was down and clearly disabled. Carlson spent seven weeks in intensive care, fighting for his life. No drugs were found on the premises.

It was later learned that the Federal Customs Service, the DEA and the U.S. Attorney's Office in San Diego had relied on an informant who was known to be untrustworthy and who claimed Carlson's garage contained 2,500 kilograms of cocaine (a large amount which would have taken up most of the garage) and four armed guards. The agents conducted the raid in spite of the fact they could see the informant's information was erroneous.

As of this writing, none of the federal agents involved in the incident have been sanctioned nor has Mr. Carlson been compensated for his injuries.

SINA BRUSH

Just after dawn on September 5, 1991 some sixty agents from the DEA, U.S. Forest Service, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF), and National Guard, complete with painted faces and camouflage and accompanied by another twenty or more National Guard troops with a light armored vehicle, raided the homes of Sina Brush and two of her neighbors near Montainair, New Mexico. Brush and her daughter were still asleep. Hearing noises outside, Ms. Brush got up and was only halfway across the room, when the door was kicked in by the agents. Clad only in their underwear, Ms. Brush and her daughter were handcuffed and forced to kneel in the middle of the room while the agents searched the house. No drugs were found. Just as in the Carlson case, the police had obtained a warrant using information furnished by an unreliable informant and had entered Brush's home without knocking first.

WACO

This most notorious case has stunned the sensibilities of millions of Americans. According to The Wall Street Journal, "...the BATF showed up at the Davidian compound with two cattle trucks full of agents in battle gear and a plan for 'dynamic entry'." The siege that followed the initial assault included terrifying, psychological warfare tactics and ended when a second attack, utilizing tanks and gas, led to conflagration. "Weird cultists" (your words)? Some of the adults, but certainly not the children.

For two years now, thousands of calls and letters of outrage have been received by government, the media and yes, the NRA. The cries of "thugs", "Nazi" and "storm trooper" came first, not from the NRA, but from the minds and mouths of Americans describing what they had seen on television.

RANDY WEAVER

This debacle at Ruby Ridge continues to fan a seething backlash in the country. A fourteen year old boy was shot in the back and killed. A mother was shot by a sniper in the head and killed while holding a baby. A jury found BATF guilty of entrapment and the defendant was acquitted. How does it all add up to justifiable behavior by, once again, black shrouded forces with armored personnel carriers, helicopters and snipers all arrayed against a family in a cabin? Hundreds of good people have told me that scene reminds them of what this country once fought against and should never stand for.

Mr. President, there are more names and more abuse;

JANICE HART PORTLAND, OREGON FEBRUARY 1993

Janice Hart pulled up to her house from grocery shopping with her daughters to find her house being ransacked by ATF agents who had kicked in the door. Agents searched her home, throwing dishes, pulling clothing from hangers and emptying drawers on the floor (she photographed the damage). Some eight ATF agents interrogated her in the basement for an hour before reading her her rights. She asked to call an attorney and the agents refused. When they finally asked her if she was Janice Marie Harrell, she told them no, that she was Janice Hart. ATF agents mocked her, accused her of selling firearms and cocaine, then arrested her. The Portland Police, who she commended for their professional demeanor, took her downtown for booking and, within thirty seconds of fingerprinting her, realized ATF had the wrong person.

LOUIS KATONA BUCYRUS, OHIO

Louis Katona is a police officer in Bucyrus, Ohio. When shouting and cursing BATF agents rushed into his home to seize his firearms collection, they grabbed his pregnant wife, Kim, and shoved her into a wall. Within days, she suffered a miscarriage. A federal judge threw the government's case out of court and ordered BATF to immediately return Mr. Katona's guns or face jail themselves. The Katonas are presently pressing civil charges against BATF.

I could go on to tell you about Harry and Teresa Lamplugh, Ron and Elaine Miller, Howard and Sandy Wittenberg and many others. All victims of forceful, abusive and often vicious assaults on their homes and businesses by BATF agents who turned out not to have a case. You would hear about cancer medicines thrown all over the floor, family pets stomped to death, terrified children separated from their parents, tires slashed, threatening and hang-up telephone calls and other such behavior that has nothing to do with the America I grew up in.

If all the above is not bad enough, just 62 days ago, on Wednesday, March 8, 1995 USA Today reported that "...a group of black agents has sued the 4,200-employee agency (BATF), charging widespread discrimination." The special agent in charge of ATF's Houston office, Donnie Carter, said, "There's institutional racism.." inside BATF. The article continues: "The suit charges ATF officials have routinely ignored racial abuses while funneling blacks into low-paying, but dangerous street assignments with little career potential. The black agents' legal documents cite numerous racial problems, including how: White agents in Oklahoma City in 1991 plastered their walls with a Confederate flag, a 'State of Oklahoma ****** Hunting License', and a Ku Klux Klan business card. Black agents at the ATF office in Chicago in 1991 went to the photocopier and found a picture of civil rights activist Jesse Jackson with the words 'jungle bunny' scrawled on it."

Mr. President, if you watched any of NRA's recent appearances on national television, you know that we did not use this article to deflect criticism of our own language. Nor did we refer to the "60 Minutes" report that appeared on Sunday, January 12, 1993 in which female BATF agents themselves described a sickening pattern of sexual harassment, intimidation and retaliation in their own ranks. One agent reported, "I was held against the hood of my car and my clothes ripped off by two agents." Another said a male agent had "... repeatedly left dildos on my desk." She then reported that, "... he trapped me in a room and told me he would screw me in a New York minute."

A male BATF agent who had come forward to support the charges of the female agents summed it up this way: "They violate the basic principles and tenets of the Constitution and the laws and simple ethics of morality. That's what disgusts me."

Just last Thursday, May 4, The New York Times, in an editorial stated that BATF, "...has had its share of problems, including inexcusable errors leading up to the tragedy at Waco." The editorial went on to say that BATF, "... is badly in need of internal reform. Waco was merely the most spectacular in a series of lapses in which the BATF became too aggressive...". They referred to BATF's, "...woeful record of sex and racial discrimination." They said, "BATF is struggling with a legacy of mismanagement and large, visible mistakes that have undermined the public's confidence in its ability to do its job." And finally, the editorial declared that, "...if the agency is to survive, it must face its demons." Toward that end, the editorial concluded that congressional hearings, "...can serve a useful purpose." That is exactly what NRA, ACLU, BATF's victims and millions of concerned citizens have been demanding for the last two years.

The same editorial reminded its readers that, "Representative John Dingell has called its agents 'jack-booted American fascists' and Representative Harold Volkmer has called BATF 'one of the most Rambo-rogue law enforcement agencies in the United States'."

Let me also call to your attention that the last time BATF abuses were investigated was in hearings before the Subcommittee on Treasury, Post Office and General Appropriations of the Senate Appropriations Committee in July 1979 and April 1980, and before the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Senate Judiciary Committee in October 1980. They concluded, "Based upon these hearings it is apparent that enforcement tactics made possible by current federal firearms laws are constitutionally, legally, and practically reprehensible. ...These practices, amply documented in hearings before this Subcommittee, leave little doubt that the Bureau has disregarded rights guaranteed by the Constitution and laws of the United States. ...It has trampled upon the Second Amendment by chilling exercise of the right to keep and bear arms by law abiding citizens. ... It has offended the Fourth Amendment by unreasonably searching and seizing private property. ..It has ignored the Fifth Amendment by taking private property without just compensation and by entrapping honest citizens without regard for their right to due process of law. ... The rebuttal presented to the Subcommittee by the Bureau was utterly unconvincing. ...Evidence was submitted establishing that approximately 75 percent of BATF gun prosecutions were aimed at ordinary citizens who had neither criminal intent nor knowledge...."

Following the lead of the Senate, it was the Reagan-Bush Administration that cracked down on BATF and cleaned up the way they conducted themselves throughout the ensuing decade. Have you forgotten, President Bush, your previous passion for justice and fairness for all law-abiding citizens?

The facts are there, Mr. President. No American citizen can be proud of this agency's record in the last four years. Certainly, there are many fine, professional and heroic BATF agents who have served our nation with great distinction during this period, but their professionalism and honor are being overwhelmed by an increasingly angry and outraged American public that will not tolerate fear of their own government. That's why The Wall Street Journal in an editorial last Tuesday, May 2, 1995 said "...recent history suggests that the people in charge of this country's system of law, order and justice had better get their acts together pretty darn quick." And, in a little noted and largely ignored Time/CNN poll conducted eight days after the bombing in Oklahoma City, fifty-two percent of those questioned agreed that "...the federal government has become so powerful that it poses a threat to the rights and freedoms of citizens." That so many Americans actually fear their own government is a storm cloud on this country's horizon of unimaginable proportions.

Are NRA's words to blame? Are John Dingell's? Is it the rhetoric of Rush Limbaugh or Bill Clinton or David Letterman? I don't think so. I believe more and more Americans see an emerging double standard that disgusts them. Again, I quote from The Wall Street Journal editorial of May 2, 1995, "Allowing for the dilemmas of the real world, we seem to have a double standard today: It says that law enforcement officials can do what they want with unpopular defendants like religious fanatics and white supremacists. But in dealing with suspects who might charge racial prejudice, they have to be careful indeed. Even in the wake of Oklahoma City, we are about to have the release of a Mario Van Peebles film making the Black Panthers into entertainment, guns and all."

President Bush, NRA never intended for its words to offend your sense of decency and honor or your concept of service to country. I firmly believe that after a thorough congressional examination of BATF, you will agree that our words have been more truth than slander. I believe you will judge too much of what BATF has done to be inexcusable and deserving of your personal repudiation. Therefore, I respectfully ask you to reconsider your resignation as a Life Member of the National Rifle Association until all the facts are known. Then, if you still feel that NRA has been wrong in the way it has confronted this issue, NRA will deserve your resignation. Until then, I believe we and the American people deserve your help in getting to the truth.

Respectfully,

Tom Washington
President
National Rifle Association of America

grimjaw
April 13, 2006, 11:58 PM
Too bad this guy (http://www.salon.com/ent/video_dog/media/2006/04/10/escaped_murderer/index.html) wasn't wearing a mask, which brings up the point I was trying to make in my first post.

jmm

Mad Man
April 16, 2006, 12:27 AM
i am not defennding the batf but if i was a member of law enforcement and i saw "anyone" anywhere running whereing a mask i think that would be reason to stop and find out what was going on. now with that being said if i tried to stop someone and they kept running i might not be as nice when i caught them but other than that they did really screw this one up big time.


In this hypothetical situation of yours: are you wearing a uniform that clearly identifies you as a law enforcement officer?

Mad Man
April 16, 2006, 12:29 AM
Pirates & Emperors (http://piratesandemperors.com/)

Ninja Attack (http://loservillex.com/ninja.html)

DRZinn
April 23, 2006, 08:22 PM
The dialogue between Ransom and the agent went back and forth, with the agent insisting Ransom had a gun, and Ransom insisting he was unarmed.Pretty simple and fast to detrmine who's correct here....

Joey2
April 23, 2006, 09:18 PM
This "ninja" had no illegal alcahol he paid no tax on. He had no tobacco he paid no tax on or any firearms he did not register or fail to pay tax on.

So the question is why did the Bureau of Alchahol Tobacco and Firearms do this?

Could it be a tacit expansion of their powers to coincide with a police state?

El Tejon
April 26, 2006, 10:43 AM
Another undergrad receives his PhD is the True Nature of Government.:D

Good to see the ATFE acting like the thugs they are. Let's hope that pic gets many, many views across the Internet.

Anything we can do to hurt the ATFE and wipe it from the government we should do.:) Call and write.

wheelgunslinger
April 26, 2006, 11:23 AM
Yep. Call and write if you didn't like the way they handled yet another incident.
Write your local congressional representatives. Let them know you don't like this kind of stuff.
Or, you could do nothing and hope it gets better.

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