Beware: Guns America sale


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todd-45
April 14, 2006, 03:17 PM
I recently listed a Ruger P345 for sale on GA with several interested responses. This one sounded paculiar though. This is ripped directly from my e-mail.

Thanks for the mail , the price is okay by me and i am ready to purchase from you immediately, i am ok with the[Gun}, and i want you to delete the ad from the website, i have a reputable shipper that will take care of shipping from your end i want to let you know i have a client in the state that is oweing me a sum of $4,000.., i will instruct him to issue you a certified cashier's check on my behalf and as soon as chech arrives, you hold out your amount with the shipping cost to my FFL DEALER and send the difference back to me via western union money transfer, i hope i can trust you for my balance and also you will be contacting the FFL DEALER with all neccesary information needed for to ship it to them i.e the actual weight and exact dimension of the (Gun),if this terms are okay by you, do get back to me with the following details which payment will be made Out to you like this:
Home Address...
Full Name on
cheque...
State...
Zipcode...
Country...
Telephone Number...
Mobilep! hone number...
Fax Number...
Do get back to me asap with this details for payment to be made out to you immediately. Waiting to hearing from you.
N:B I will also give you a compesation of $50 for considered it sold to me.
Best Regards,
Bill.

And my response...
No thanks. I do not do business in that manner.

I thought about proceeding without shipment of course to see what happened but I didn't. What do ya'll think?

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migoi
April 14, 2006, 03:21 PM
http://www.snopes.com/crime/fraud/cashier.asp

migoi

orygunmike
April 14, 2006, 03:32 PM
A well-documented scam....

You receive $4,000 check

You wait the 3 days for the check to clear...

You send difference to "buyer" via Western Union

The check you were sent turns out to be phoney....a forgery...

....the "leftover" money you sent to the "buyer" now comes out of your pocket...

mr_dove
April 14, 2006, 03:37 PM
I wonder how many people bite on a scam like this.

Q-Lock
April 14, 2006, 03:47 PM
unfortunately...I would say quite a few.

Roadkill Coyote
April 14, 2006, 04:14 PM
Its a variation on the "419", or "Nigerian" scam, which is a decendant of the classic confidence game "the spanish prisoner". This (http://www.caslon.com.au/419scamnote.htm) is a good overveiw of the situation. The specific version that they tried on you is listed on the second page under "overpayment".

I know that I've warned off someone who recieved such an offer myself, and across the hall at the PD, they have had a few of cases reported. Which is to say, when the problem is common and well know in Alamosa Colorado, it positively HUGE elsewhere. I can't find the site right now, but I have seen an estimate that a frauds like these are a significant percentage of the overall economy of Nigeria right now.

:scrutiny:

Technosavant
April 14, 2006, 04:20 PM
Rules to follow to avoid scams:
1) Banks, merchants, and payment systems do not do business or inform you of security breaches by email. Any email you get claiming to be such a business and claiming they need "confirmation" is pure BS. Should my bank be so reckless, I would switch banks, not confirm my ID.
2) Rich people in other nations do not need anonymous people in other nations to transfer money. Big banks are happy to do such transfers for nominal fees.
3) The person in Europe or Africa is not trying to buy your Ford Taurus. They hand plenty of crappy cars, and don't need yours. It is a scam.
4) Overpayment checks are ALWAYS scams. It isn't hard to cut a check for the exact amount. If they have somebody else to pay, they need to cut another check. If they are trying to third party things, they are either incompetent or (much more certain) scamming you. Either way, I would not do business with them.
5) The buyer isn't the only one who needs to beware. The seller also needs to do so.

Zundfolge
April 14, 2006, 04:23 PM
You should report the "buyer" to the admins at GA.

The Drew
April 14, 2006, 04:53 PM
not only that but they should be reported to the BATFE for attempting to straw purchase since you were to be paid by a third party for a handgun...

maybe they'll burn the scammer's home down with him inside....

molonlabe
April 14, 2006, 05:03 PM
maybe they'll burn the scammer's home down with him inside....


at least pump it full of gas.:evil:

johnny blaze
April 14, 2006, 05:17 PM
I got one the other day, supposedly from the IRS - yea, right.
I guess that people do fall for this stuff.
A guy I know got the same sort of thing when he had a horse for sale on the net.
I do not think anyone would send you a check for more than an item and ask you to send the difference back to them.
Have you also noticed that they are all in the format of not being able to speak/type english very well. Maybe so, maybe not.
THESE GUYS ARE SOMETHING ELSE!!!:fire:

Mr_Dictionary
April 14, 2006, 05:20 PM
A simple safegaurd that works well and really should be used for all money orders, checks (cashier's or otherwise), and any other form of note of which you have no assurance that the payer is legitimate is to get the full amount of the note IN CASH. Never deposit the note, because the bank knows that if the note is refused, they can just reverse the amount out of your account. However, such an action is obviously not possible when you get cash.

In fact, if you get cash, most banks will either process the note electronically (they find out if the note is valid immediately) where it can not be reversed to them, or they will confirm the validity of the note either with a phone call to the "supposed" issuer or using an internal verifier. Either way, you find out immediately if the note is valid rather than the typical wait where you see that the amount was reversed on your statement.

After you get cash, you can then deposit the cash, and have no fear that the amount will be reversed, because they are then refusing to accept United States tender, which is a violation of federal law.

Marnoot
April 14, 2006, 05:38 PM
because they are then refusing to accept United States tender, which is a violation of federal law. Legal tender can be refused as payment if no debt exists prior to the time of payment. For instance if you want to buy a $100 stereo from me, I can legally refuse anything but a personal check if I so desired. And you can just decide not to buy it. On the other hand, if you bought a $100 stereo from me on credit I cannot refuse cash for payment.

Mr_Dictionary
April 14, 2006, 05:45 PM
Legal tender can be refused as payment if no debt exists prior to the time of payment.

It can be refused at the time of sale. However, that point will have passed once they've accepted it and issued a receipt. This has nothing to do with a bank and is merely an extension of the doctrine of first sale.

And US banks cannot refuse to accept US currency as a form of security or deposit. Neither can they accept US tender at any value other than face value. This is part of the banking laws that came about with the bank reforms that came about in the 30s.

Hawkmoon
April 14, 2006, 05:49 PM
A simple safegaurd that works well and really should be used for all money orders, checks (cashier's or otherwise), and any other form of note of which you have no assurance that the payer is legitimate is to get the full amount of the note IN CASH. Never deposit the note, because the bank knows that if the note is refused, they can just reverse the amount out of your account. However, such an action is obviously not possible when you get cash.
Huh???????

What are you saying? Cash is money, greenbacks, dinero. MOney orders and cashier's checques are not "cash." I don't understand what it is you think people should be doing to avoid the problem of potentially counterfeit money orders.

Mr_Dictionary
April 14, 2006, 05:53 PM
^^ It's very simple. Don't deposit your money order or check (or any other from of noncurrecy payment). Just cash them out for their full amount. Once you've cashed the check, it can't be reversed out of your account like the banks do when you deposit them and they're fraudulent.

todd-45
April 14, 2006, 05:53 PM
I tried to find some way to forward it to GA admin. but could not. I didn't think about reporting it to the ATF or someone because that would be illegal for someone to actually buy the gun not being the actual purchaser.

Marnoot
April 14, 2006, 06:03 PM
This is part of the banking laws that came about with the bank reforms that came about in the 30s. Ah, I didn't even think about the bank laws differing, good point.
I wonder how many people bite on a scam like this.Don't know about percentages, but I'm sure a whole bunch bite. If it weren't profitable to spend all the time the perpetrators put into these scams, they wouldn't be likely to do so. Same with spam emails; if people weren't actually buying items presented to them through spam, it would likely not be something you'd be deleting from your inbox several times a day. I'd like to slap some of those people who buy from spam around, personally...

http://www.419eater.com/ is good for a few laughs from what scambaiters can get a lot of these scammers to do.

sam59
April 14, 2006, 06:14 PM
I had the same scam attempted. Pretty much the same story you received. I had heard about this scam and figured I would make the SOB work for nothing. I gave him my P.O. Box address and he sent a money order (Via UPS to Postal P.O. Box-Dummy) that I hung onto and strung him along. I told him my wife sent the money via Western Union. He e-mailed and said it was not sent, I said she must not have sent it, I will get it out the next morning. Basically I did this as long as I could so the A'hole expected something that was never going to come. I still have the money order.

pcf
April 14, 2006, 06:19 PM
^^ It's very simple. Don't deposit your money order or check (or any other from of noncurrecy payment). Just cash them out for their full amount. Once you've cashed the check, it can't be reversed out of your account like the banks do when you deposit them and they're fraudulent.

You're still liable. When it's cash the bank will send you a letter in the mail, for repayment. The next time it's a Sheriff's Deputy serving you notice or an arrest warrant.

Hook686
April 14, 2006, 07:46 PM
[ Today, 02:19 PM #20
pcf
Senior Member wrote:

Quote:
^^ It's very simple. Don't deposit your money order or check (or any other from of noncurrecy payment). Just cash them out for their full amount. Once you've cashed the check, it can't be reversed out of your account like the banks do when you deposit them and they're fraudulent. [/quote


You're still liable. When it's cash the bank will send you a letter in the mail, for repayment. The next time it's a Sheriff's Deputy serving you notice or an arrest warrant.
__________________




I'm curious now ... let's create a senario ... the cashiers check is drawn on a B of A bank ... I do not have a Bof A account ... I go to a BofA bank and ask to cash it ... will the BofA bank:

1) check to see if funds exist to cash the check,

2) If funds exist, will they cash the BofA cashier's check ?

3) If later BofA gets burned, will BofA have grounds to go after me ?

Firethorn
April 14, 2006, 08:27 PM
1. Cashier's check is like a check written by the bank. This is different from a personal/company check, which is written by an individual/company against a specific account. They have the funds to cover it unless you're an idiot and try to cash a three trillion dollar check.
2. Being that it's 'Their' check, they have the means to verify that it's genuine and not a duplicate(IE the crooks take a genuine check, copy it, and attempt to cash it in two different branches).
2b. If you have a BofA cashier's check and try to cash it at, say, a well's fargo, they may CALL BofA to validate check. Smaller banks may refuse to cash it at all if you don't have an account with them, they may only let you deposit it and place a hold so you can't withdraw the money. Check cashing places want many forms of ID(see part 3). They also charge fees, included in which is some insurance to the occasional successful scam.
3. Yes, they can attempt to retrieve the funds from you. You gave them a fraudulent check, you'll be lucky to escape criminal charges. They'll probably only go after the money if they believe that you weren't the scammer or a knowing party. Generally they want ID, from which they record enough information to at very least report it to the credit report companies. SSN, Name&address, phone number, any of it's sufficient to track you down.

Blue Line
April 14, 2006, 08:48 PM
"If you want to see some funny stuff that people pull on these scammers read the stuff on this link - :D http://ebolamonkeyman.com

Basket Lady
April 14, 2006, 09:09 PM
Quote ^^It's very simple. Don't deposit your money order or check (or any other from of noncurrecy payment). Just cash them out for their full amount. Once you've cashed the check, it can't be reversed out of your account like the banks do when you deposit them and they're fraudulent.^^End quote

I'm a banker, and I've seen too many situations where people believe this, much to their detriment.

Your bank is providing a service to you by collecting the checks you deposit or cash. It's just the middle-man. When you deposit or cash a check at your bank, you are legally obligated to repay your bank if the check is dishonored by the other bank for any reason.

Even in the age of 'electronic' checks, the checks you deposit or cash at the teller window are not automatically or instantly debited from the the other person's account at a different bank. Even checks converted to electronic images take a day or so to process. If the check is handled in the older (and still most common) way, it must physically be presented to the paying bank, which can take days.

Even if the teller 'verifies' a check by calling the paying bank when you cash a check, it's not a done deal. It still has to clear the paying bank, and while the check may have been good this morning, it may not be tomorrow when the check is presented to the paying bank. Also, counterfeits generally cannot be detected this way.

This is assuming that you and the check-writer have accounts at different banks. If you cash the check at the bank it's drawn on you have a totally different scenario.

Hope this helps.

Firethorn
April 14, 2006, 09:46 PM
1. Cashier's check is like a check written by the bank. This is different from a personal/company check, which is written by an individual/company against a specific account. They have the funds to cover it unless you're an idiot and try to cash a three trillion dollar check.
2. Being that it's 'Their' check, they have the means to verify that it's genuine and not a duplicate(IE the crooks take a genuine check, copy it, and attempt to cash it in two different branches).
2b. If you have a BofA cashier's check and try to cash it at, say, a well's fargo, they may CALL BofA to validate check. Smaller banks may refuse to cash it at all if you don't have an account with them, they may only let you deposit it and place a hold so you can't withdraw the money. Check cashing places want many forms of ID(see part 3). They also charge fees, included in which is some insurance to the occasional successful scam.
3. Yes, they can attempt to retrieve the funds from you. You gave them a fraudulent check, you'll be lucky to escape criminal charges. They'll probably only go after the money if they believe that you weren't the scammer or a knowing party. Generally they want ID, from which they record enough information to at very least report it to the credit report companies. SSN, Name&address, phone number, any of it's sufficient to track you down.

Spreadfire Arms
April 14, 2006, 10:04 PM
send him a squirt gun in the mail :D

todd-45
April 14, 2006, 10:18 PM
Terrific idea
:neener: :neener:

jamz
April 14, 2006, 11:31 PM
Amble on over to www.419eater.com and read up. :)

-James

fritz1
April 15, 2006, 05:50 AM
Sounds like the old Nigerian origin fraud, I received the same exact line from some guy in Nigeria when I was trying to sell a mountain bike frame, , run then run some more.

Creeping Incrementalism
April 16, 2006, 06:16 AM
http://www.419eater.com/images/trophy_room/mobuto_seko.jpg

doggscube
April 17, 2006, 10:45 AM
The squirt gun idea made me think of this classic story:

http://www.p-p-p-powerbook.com/

Just a heads-up, there's some language on that page.

-Jeff

mrmeval
April 17, 2006, 01:20 PM
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976703930.htm

The man is prompt, he has this other one which I want and can't have. :banghead:

MINE! (http://mrmeval.is-a-geek.net/~jcaldwel/images/webley/)

It points well
http://mrmeval.is-a-geek.net/~jcaldwel/images/webley/thrust.jpg

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