Maryland CCW Seminar, April 22nd

[Live Free Or Die]

Apologies if this has already been covered elsewhere. I browsed the MSI website and a few others, and didn't see it mentioned anywhere.

The Mt. Washington Rod & Gun Club is sponsoring a seminar on Maryland CHP/CCW. Guests include Colonel Thomas E. "Tim" Hutchins, Secretary of the Maryland State Police, and "command personnel from the MSP licensing division."

More information from www.associatedgunclubs.org (http://associatedgunclubs.org/legislative.htm):

"Since 1972 when the Maryland General Assembly passed legislation which prohibited Maryland citizens from wearing or carrying a concealed handgun without a permit, successive anti self defense administrations made it increasingly difficult to obtain a concealed handgun permit. Other than the permit application form, no other information on the application process, statutes, and regulations is readily available to the public.

The Maryland State Police have graciously agreed to attend this event in order to provide citizens with accurate information on the permit process, requirements, regulations, policies and procedures involved in applying for a permit to carry a concealed handgun in Maryland.

Following the MSP presentation there will be a question and answer session during which the MSP will answer questions posed by members of the audience. Note: Questions on specific applications or specific individuals will not be addressed or answered."

If you read the .pdf announcement from the link I gave above, you'll see there is a limit of 150 participants. I have information that 88 have RSVP'd. If you are sure you will make it (especially you MSI folk), I encourage you to RSVP. While I believe it would be a mistake to show up and ruthlessly berate the police folk who agreed to attend the seminar, it could be very useful to have a few members in the audience who are well versed in the legal/political aspects of CCW in MD, who will stand up and ask the tough questions.

I have a range badge at Marriottsville. As a bonus to anyone who's on the fence about attending, I'll volunteer to escort you on the range for a little rifle shooting in the morning before the seminar. I'll have a Swiss K31 and M/N M-44. I'll even buy you lunch (I'm sure we can find some fast food nearby).

[Live Free Or Die]

Well, it doesn't look like any one wants to take me up on my offer. Darn. :)

If you can't go but have some questions for the MSP, pass them on to me and I'll try to ask them.

[Spot77]

I RSVP'D weeks ago, but you can still buy me lunch if you want :neener:

I would take up your offer to hit the range early, but I have family obligations in the morning.

[Live Free Or Die]

I RSVP'D weeks ago, but you can still buy me lunch if you want. I would take up your offer to hit the range early, but I have family obligations in the morning.

Heheh, I should have qualified my offer with "if you weren't already planning on attending." You're on your own for lunch, but I'll look for you at the meeting. Are you coming prepared with some hard-hitting questions for the Secretary?

[Spot77]

I have a few questions, but I'm pretty confident that they'll be answered long beforeI get to ask them.

This conference presents an interesting scenario.....many people are wondering what the purpose of it is.....it's AFTER the legislative session (so it does no good for the ccw bills this year), before the elections, Del Don Dwyer was NOT invited (He's been the main push in the House for ccw and other gun rights), last year AGC said it would, "Take an act of God" (verbatim) for them to support a ccw bill...So I'm going with an open mind and no expectations.

[Live Free Or Die]

Bear with me, since I'm a little new to some of this, especially the AGC.

Am I hearing you right, that the AGC indicated as recently as last year that they basically do not support CCW? I don't get it. It certainly doesn't square with the information the put on the invitation to this event, in which they seemingly took a pro-CHP stance. Does the AGC have any political power/connections? I'm in the AGC through my gun club at work, but our club consists mainly of old guys who shoot .22 bullseye and don't seem to care about broader political issues related to guns. If that demographic is typical of the AGC, then I could believe that it's an ineffectual RKBA supporter.

I have to admit: I was also wondering what the point of this seminar was. I was hoping it was AGC giving its members an opportunity to call the MSP on the BS nature of the CCW process, but you bring up good points about the timing of this event, and who's invited.

Your strategy of "open mind and no expectations" sounds pretty reasonable.

[steak2]

My state of Ohio has graciously allowed its citizens to carry, if you pass the requirements., the C.L.E.O of each county is charged with issuing the permits. The CLEO in my county just has not shown much support in this area. I went ahead and receieved my permit from a neighboring county, but as a matter of principal called the CLEO of my home county weekly just to bust their chops. Finally , when I asked if they still chase burglers and rapists, then questioned why they choose to not actively take part in this responsibility. I had to actually explain that, IF they are not in favor of the CCW permit, that should be all the more of a reason to issue it, fullfilling the obligated legal duties, that way, they know who has one and who does not.Go figure.
Do not sit still and allow a CLEO in your state to get away with something like this, for even a day.
Another funny, the folks who predicted that the streets would be like "the old west" and would run red with blood from all the shootings, are not vocal about the decrease in violent crimes since passage of our CCW law.
I could go on and on for a while but I won`t.Good luck , do not allow anyone to take your rights for granted.

[Spot77]

Am I hearing you right, that the AGC indicated as recently as last year that they basically do not support CCW?

I can't speak for AGC, however I do believe they support ccw in general, but they live in fear of seeing bad amendments attached to a ccw bill. Maybe some administrative fix is in the works and this little shindig will help.

I think politics spills out of the legislature and into the various gun clubs. There's a lot of different organizations with similar or disimilar agendas, and everybody thinks they have a better way of doing things. Hard to say who is right or wrong, but it sure does slow down progress.

[Live Free Or Die]

I just tried -- unsuccessfully -- to register for this event. It's already full, which is good news. Bad news because I was sort of looking forward to it though. I'm on the waiting list, so I'll show up anyway and maybe I'll get in.

Two points I want to make:

1) The guy I talked to in the AGC office was very confrontational, and very pissed off (not at me) that I had only heard about the event earlier this week. He demanded to know which gun club I was in, so he could chew out the club's officers for not alerting the club members of the event quicker. His apparent bad mood is understandable -- it certainly is frustrating to be a gun activist in a state like MD. But IMO this guy is going to alienate way more potential gun-friendly folk than he'll ever win over. It's a shame.

2) I found out the purpose of the event. It's not just a little tutorial on what the rules are in MD. I believe the intent is to put the MSP licensing folk on the hot seat, since they're the ones who apparently determine that "self-defense" is not a valid reason for a CHP. I'm glad that this is the focus of the seminar, but see point 1) and you'll realize why I think there's a good chance this is going to backfire bigtime. I believe there's an aphorism about flies and honey that could be relevant here.

[Lonnie Wilson]

Unfortunately, I cannot attend the Seminar, because I'm all the way out in Washington, heh, but here is the questions I would ask the Maryland Handgun Licensing Division:

1) There's been a resurgance in carry permit reform legislation lately, and now 39 states are shall-issue, and your neighbor to the east, Delaware is likely to go shall-issue this year. A lot of these bills strip the issuing agencies of authority to deny permits to how they feel are especially dangerous individuals. Would the Maryland State Police Licensing Division, like Sheriff Mike Carona of Orange County, California, or many of the counties in may-issue states, such as Iowa, New York, and California, consider liberalizing their permit issuance policy to allow them to be generally issued for personal protection, so that they can maintain their ability to deny permits to obviously unstable individuals while allowing those who want the permits can get them, and thus reduce the large possibility of a reform bill passing taking away all authority from the Maryland State Police to decide who can and cannot get a permit (This is my suggestion for an administrative fix, folks).

2) Along the same lines, does the Maryland State Police Licensing Division believe that it'll cost them more to more liberally issue personal protection permits, or do they believe that they will make money in the endeavor and allow equipment upgrades and more law enforcement on the streets from a public announcement of permits being more freely available and therefor more applications being filed? (This is self financing suggestion, similar to Florida's licensing division being self supporting and actually making "profit").

[Lonnie Wilson]

I spoke with the head of AGC, and he stated that there were no recording equipment, it would be too daunting to get the releases done to do it. I hope one of us can have a laptop in there and transcribe the meeting and the questions being asked. Pretty please?

[Live Free Or Die]

Thanks for your input, Lonnie.

If I'm able to get in tomorrow, I'll at the very least take good notes and report back here. Otherwise, I know Spot77 will be there, and possibly other THR's. I'm sure between us we'll be able to transcribe what happens. Maybe someone will record it -- who knows.

[BullfrogKen]

I wish I would have known about the event earlier. I would have attended.

Please respond to the thread when you return and have a report for us. I will monitor it your response.

[Live Free Or Die]

Here are my notes from the seminar:

Captain Herman, who leads the handgun licensing division (and who is new to this job), discussed how the current system has not operated efficiently, and what steps are being taken to expedite the processing of CHP's. Basically they're buying new computers, using an electronic finger-print machine instead of paper cards to send to the FBI, and they're trying to hire more injured "desk job" cops to process applications and do background investigations.

Some of the highlights of her talk:

- about 95% of the annual ~4,500 applicants are approved, and the MSP is apparently proud of that "success rate." (despite the fact that almost nobody who wants a CHP applies, because they know full well that it is $117 flushed down the toilet if they say their reason is "self-defense")

- the current application process touches no fewer than 14 different computer databases. She did not mention if the "new, improved" process will reduce that number.

- between 5-10% of rejected applicants choose to appeal their rejections to the Handgun Permit Review Board (not part of the police dept, but part of the MD Department of Public Safety and Correctional Services). Approximately 1/3 of the rejections are overturned by the HG Permit Review Board.

--------------------------------

The interesting part was the Q/A session. Pretty much all of the questions were asked of Mr. Hutchins, the Secretary of the MSP. What follows are the highlights:

Q: "If someone is issued a 'restricted' CHP that only allows them to carry during 'the normal course of business' and 'normal business hours', isn't it true that different officers might interpret 'normal' differently?
A (Hutchins): Yes, officers will use their own subjectivity when deciding whether you're illegally carrying a handgun beyond the restrictions stated on your permit. (He admitted that could be problematic, and said that's something they'll "look into")

Q: "The MD law states that a person may be issued a permit to carry a concealed handgun if he can show 'good and substantial reason to carry a firearm...as a reasonable precaution against apprehended danger'. The same law gives discretionary power to the Secretary of the MSP to define what 'good and substantial" means. If the Secretary has not given the handgun licensing division guidance on the definition of that term, then under what authority does the handgun licensing division restrict the issuance of permits?"
A (Herman): (she balked)
A (Hutchins): We operate under the current law.

Q: "Secretary, do you feel like you can exercise flexibility and discretion when defining 'good and substantial?'"
A (Hutchins): As far as defining 'good and substantial,' we 'know it when we see it' As far as an actual definition of 'good and substantial,' we at the MSP would love it if the legislature provided us with a definition.

Q: "Can retired LE carry in MD, as per the recent federal law?"
A (Hutchins): Yes, no need for a MD CHP in that case.

Q: "Looking ahead, do you see the MSP relaxing the issuance of CHP's to regular citizens, not just business representatives carrying large sums of money?"
A (Hutchins): Well first of all the Governor can't do anything about it, that has to come from the legislature. So talk to the legislature, it's out of our hands.

Q: "A regular, non-business-money-carrying-citizen, has to show that he has suffered previous attacks or threats to his life in order to be eligible for a CHP. Unfortunately, the bad guys do not give warning before they attack people, so I, a regular citizen, cannot get a CHP until it's too late and I've been attacked. Doesn't that seem unjust?"
A (Hutchins): I understand this is an emotional issue for you. You need to take that up with the leglislature.

Q: "As far as 'good and substantial' goes, do we REALLY need the legislature to provide you with a definition? The law states that the Secretary of the MSP decides what that term means, so what's preventing YOU from stating that self-defense is a 'good and substantial' reason?"
A (Hutchins): (he totally balked on this one, once again saying we're "following the law" and "take it up with the legislature")

Q: "In my experience, many military and police personnel do not support the right of regular civilians to own firearms. Given your background in the army and Maryland state police, I was wondering how YOU feel about the right of civilian firearm ownership.
A (Hutchins): My opinion is not relevant.

Q (followup): "It is relevant, since you're the person under the law who uses his discretion to define 'good and substantial'."
A (Hutchins): My opinion is not relevant -- I'm bound to work under the law, whatever it is.

Q: "Are there any other states that you look to as a model for what Maryland's CHP should be like?
A (Hutchins): That's something I will look at to see how other states operate -- obviously states in our category, that is, states that are not shall-issue.

Q: "I've heard various rumors about the amount of money that a business person carries before they're carrying enough to satisfy your requirements to have a CHP issued to them. I'm a small business owner, and I don't carry LARGE amounts, but what I do carry is absolutely critical to the success of my business. If I get robbed and lose that money, it is just as significant to me as if a larger business lost a larger deposit. Can you comment on this?"
A (Hutchins): I definitely see your point, and my perspective on that is, "a business is a business, no matter how big or small, and we'll take that into consideration when processing your permit application.

Q: "Do you support shall-issue in MD?"
A (Hutchins): I can't answer that because of my position of Secretary of the MSP, but you can go see how I voted when I was a member of the Maryland general assembly.

Q: "I'm old and in a wheelchair. If I apply for a CHP, do I have a better 'good and substantial' reason than this fellow over here, who is able bodied?"
A (Herman): We do consider factors like yours when determining 'good and substantial' reasons.
-----------------------------------------------

The gist: Secretary Hutchins MUST be clearly aware that the law gives him final discretion in defining what "good and substantial" means. Yet he repeatedly punted and told people they need to address this through the legislature. When asked point blank whether he thought it was unfair that the MSP seems to offer CHP's to protect business owners, but not "regular citizens" for the purpose of self-defense, he trotted out this gem:

"A business is a business, large or small. I think a business person is more likely to be attacked by a criminal than a regular person."

I wasn't given an opportunity to ask him the following question: "A life is a life. Are you telling me business and money are more important than a life? And are you also telling me you have statistics to back up your claim that business owners are more likely to be attacked in Maryland than the average person?"

All in all the meeting was depressing. These people are *clearly* not on the side of those who believe in the RKBA. Yet I'm told that this set of people -- the Secretary and the licensing division folk -- are the most RKBA-friendly we've had in Maryland since this whole issue came about 30+ years ago. Ugh. :cuss:

[Spot77]

Excellent notes! I can't really add much to your recap.

It is disappointing that AGC would not let anybody make audio recordings of the event. Maybe we could've gotten a few good sound bites to use in future lobbying for decent ccw legislation.

To me, this seemed more as a cheerleading stop for Gov. Ehrlich's re-election bid. I think he knows he's pissed off gun owners and he's talking the talk to ensure the gunowners' vote. A shame he won't walk the walk.

[SignShark]

I attended the CCW seminar, but left at the break for work. The first half seemed very optimistic with a 95% approval of permits. My question, are only business owners applying for these permits? I would have thought half the people in that room would have applied at some point if just for the bragging rights.
Here is my situation. I am a professional photographer in Baltimore City/County who regularly shoots architectural assignments. Lately, the job has taken me frequently to rather dicey areas in PG county. I shoot early in the morning and sometimes sunsets. The gear I use is upwards of $30K, I work alone with my eye stuck in a viewfinder, my back to the street. I am very vigilant and take my security seriously. I have martial arts knowledge, but at age 45, hitting someone is not cool.
Would you care to share your opinion on my chances for a permit? I can articulate to MSP and market this strategy more effectively, this is it in a nutshell.

Thanks.

[John H. Josselyn-Legislative VP]

To All Thread Posters:

Two persons who attended Saturday's CCW Seminar at the Associated Gun Clubs of Baltimore sent me emails advising me of several threads referencing the conference (they used their real names).

If you have a suggestion, question, or a criticism I ask only that you call, write, or email me directly. Please don't scurry about in the shadows, posting on sites while hiding behind false or cutsie monikers criticising what I have done, offering baseless opinions on my motives or simply thumping your chests about what YOU would have done. If you can do better please do. I have been doing this for over 13 years and I would welcome someone with your obvious enthusiasm and expertise to take over my position and responsibilities.

My email address is: agcbalto@bcpl.net
My mailing address is: P.O. Box 20102 Towson, MD 21286-8321
My phone number is: 410-296-3947

OR

You may attend the next AGC trustees meeting on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 at 1930 hours. The meetings are held in the lower range house (Entrance of Wards Chapel Road). Directions to the range can be found by visiting our web page http://www.associatedgunclubs.org

Best regards to all,

John H. Josselyn
Legislative Vice President
Associated Gun Clubs of Baltimore, Inc.

[Spot77]

John, you obviously misread the title of this forum; it's called The High Road where we speak politely to each other. I reread the entire thread and didn't find any real disparaging comments directed at you or AGC.

Don't like people discussing things? Don't read the threads.

You were asked by the President of Maryland Shall Issue.org for your motives but you apparently didn't think it was important enough to reply. Two simple questions that you refused to answer.

So therefore we will "scurry about in the shadows" and "hide behind cutsie monikers" all we want. This is our sandbox. Go piss and moan somewhere else.

You want criticism? How about running a spell check before producing the booklet that you passed out? ( It was nicely done otherwise.) At least proof read it so you might notice the missing words in at least one of the sentences on the COVER page before spending AGC members' money producing it.

There, now I gave you some truth to your previous baseless juvenile accusations.


So spill the beans to everybody here (There's at least 150 Maryland users on this forum), what was the your true motivation for the event?

Nobody likes a bully. Ask Jim Purtilo.

[Greg M]

John,

Don't worry. My "Thank You" letter to the Col. will be in the mail tomorrow with a copy to you and one to the Gov.

Oh... it might not be the "thanks" you wanted the participants to send, but I wasn't too impressed that the MSP has a new machine that cranks out 250 permit cards per hour. I guess it just sits idle the other 364 days of the year.

In all sincerity, thanks for organizing the event. It let me know that the administation has no intention to loosen the meaning of "good and substantial". So... why is it that we should support Ehrlich later this year? Or were you trying to embarrass the Gov? We're all just dying to know.

Greg

[Capital Punishment]

Unfortunately, unless the democrats give us a pro-gun candidate (they wont), we really dont have much of a choice other than to re-elect Ehrlich. At least Ehrlich doesnt try to get new gun control bills passed. :(

I guess we still have a lot of work ahead of us.

[Norton]

I guess we still have a lot of work ahead of us.

Probably the most meaningful statement in this thread.

[Kharn]

Anyone have a mailing address for the Secretary? I'd like to write him a letter and suggest they look at Delaware. They're still may-issue, but if you jump through all the hoops you wont be turned down.

Kharn

[Greg M]

Kharn,

Colonel Thomas E. Hutchins
1201 Reisterstown Road
Pikesville, MD 21208-3899

superintendent@mdsp.org

I've been told that superintendent@msp.org works more reliably.

Greg

[Semper Vigilo]

Check your fire Spot77. Perhaps we should have challenged Live Free or Die.

I know John, and it's true that he's the type of person who doesn't long tolerate people who shoot without first confirming their target. It's one of the reasons he's been so effective. He'll let you dig your own hole. Some folks get a little perturbed when he let's them know that 6 feet is deep enough. Most of these folks are politicians who can't afford to be seen in that light. Knowing John I've gotta ask a few questions.

Is it possible that LFoD gave John a hard time about the late notice when it wasn't John's fault?

Is it possible that LFoD didn't recognize that John organized this himself with only minimal support from others (by the way, does anybody else here have the pull to get the Col. a Capt., some judges and the Gov's counsel to come to what they fear will be a version of Custer's Last Stand)?

Does you guys know that John runs a business too and doesn't get paid to do this? For every hour John puts into his business he puts in an hour and a half on activism (if you take a look at the timing on some of his postings it's after a lot of us had been in bed for several hours). By the way, John goes out of pocket for all of the materials and he doesn't always ask for reimbursement.

Do we really expect him to hold the hand of everyone who expects someone else to keep them in the loop?

Is it possible that LFoD busted John's chops rather than questioning his own club's organizers? For all we know he might have sounded like and anti-gunner in sheep's clothing.

Is it possible that LFoD belongs to a non-activist or maverick club? One that doesn't participate but always finds fault in what someone else is doing?

Is LFoD volunteering to man the Legislative phone (because he has better "people" skills)?

One of the major problems our community faces is the folks on our side who want everything NOW. It's not going to happen. Learn from Vietnam. There is never going to be a force-on-force faceoff again. No more direct assaults. Politics was guerrilla warfare before it was cool.

John has fought a long war of attrition and it seems to me he must be winning because we're seeing the officers instead of the troops.

CeaseFire MD appears to have fallen in complete disarray.

John got a member of the legislature voted out of office because he was all talk and no walk. Anybody else here able to say that?

LFoD did have some sage advice. If we had busted the Col's chops what good would it do? Yeah, the guy said in between the lines that he has the authority to define "reasonable", he also said between the lines that he takes direction from higher-ups. If the Col. had said "under my authority, I hereby declare that not wanting to be a victim is "reasonable" enough" some folks here would be very happy....for a day.

Because Monday morning we'd be reading in the Sunpapers how Erlich waxed the Col. for some other plausable reason and his replacement not only set us back but the person they picked may not have the Col's honor. Politics is like chess, you can't get checkmate on the first move; just not possible. Erlich could set himself pretty with the anti folks and be able to blame us.

C'mon guys, you say you hate bullies and then you're mad because we didn't bully the Col?

If you can't figure out what happened Saturday then there's a good reason to have this guy lead this and not you. I've been an activist for only a few years and I've come to understand that I don't need to be in on every detail. I need to move when I'm asked to, stand down when I'm asked to.

Since John's been doing this we've made tremendous progress. John has been attacked in the newspapers and websites for walking the walk.

When I was kid and he was barely out of high school, John almost lost his life saving one of my best friend's mom when their house caught fire. She was overcome by smoke and unconscious in the house. John recognized that she didn't have the time for him to get a mask and a tank. He went in wearing only the gear he bought for himself (because that's how volunteer fire companies work). He got her out the window to a paid fireman and then fell unconscious out of that second story window onto the bricks below.

Spot77 now would be a good time to get out of this kitty litter/sandbox, take a step on the real high road and show this man who earned his citizenship some respect.

The man stood up and said "if you have problem here I am". And what he got back was a voice hidden in an otherwise silent crowd saying "your mommy makes you use a spell checker funny".

Perhaps our society has fallen to the point that the "High and Mighty Self-Important, I am Special Hear Me Roar, Freeway" has replaced that old, worn, and difficult High Road.

John, if you read this, forgive me if I've embarrassed you by my outburst. I hope also that you recognize that there are those of us who, while we don't always understand or sometimes agree, know we need you on that wall. You've got a lot higher tolerance for this crap than I do. I'd've left these guys whining rather than fighting for them.

[Norton]

One of the major problems our community faces is the folks on our side who want everything NOW.

Hmmm...I've been waiting around 30 years or so as the problem in this state gets worse and worse. I guess I'm impatient.....

Trouble is that the "veteran" activists (and I don't mean John in particular) have measured their success by how little ground we've lost rather than how much ground we've gained.

There is great value in patience and strategic thinking, but we seemed to have taken that to the point of the dogmatic in this state rather than finding tactics which actually work and make progress.

[Semper Vigilo]

In many ways Norton has hit the points.

We let this happen to us. We didn't take it seriously until about 12/13 years ago. Even today there are folks on our side who are content to let someone else do the fight and then sit back and complain.

It has been demoralizing in the past because the battle was to "hold the line", but that's the nature when you're on the defensive. The offensive has begun. Like other things in this world it's possible that we'll get an "overnight success" that only took 12 years to make happen.

What tactics do you think will work better than what's happening now?
Do you know some way of getting the million or so people in the DC burbs to see your point of view?
Can you get them to vote out their senior representatives?

I just don't think (if I understand you correctly) that what you want can happen. We need to get used to it. If you're really tired of things being this way you should join your local gun club. You should join their legislative activities.

I sense a small groundswell. If you want to ride the wave you gotta paddle!

[Norton]

What tactics do you think will work better than what's happening now?
Do you know some way of getting the million or so people in the DC burbs to see your point of view?
Can you get them to vote out their senior representatives?

I just don't think (if I understand you correctly) that what you want can happen. We need to get used to it. If you're really tired of things being this way you should join your local gun club. You should join their legislative activities.

I'm doing what I can from the inside out as far as shaping the hearts and minds of the youth of PG County. :evil:

Read my sig line.....I'm doing what I think needs to be done ;)

[Semper Vigilo]

Thanks for another great point.

Kids today don't appreciate shooting sports. Everything they see in the media tells them that only bad people have guns.

We'd have way more pull if we were able to show that we're also providing the voting bloc of tomorrow.

I think every gun shop should refuse to sell a firearm to anyone who is not registered to vote. Okay I know that there's a million reasons why that won't fly but a boy can dream.

[Helmetcase]

C'mon guys, you say you hate bullies and then you're mad because we didn't bully the Col?
Now now, let's check your fire a bit. I hardly think that's Spot's position here--he's merely pointing out the same thing I pointed out, that the Col. is having his cake and eating it too. He's suggesting his opinion doesn't matter on one hand and on the other asserting (correctly as a matter of law) that it's the only thing that matters, and John J. simply has a different strategy for confronting him about that cognitive dissonance than others here would favor.

As for Spot's specific qualms about John J's strategy, they don't seem unfounded to me at all--MSI is the main agitator, the most active, visible, and dedicated organization helping move the ball forward (rather than simply playing a quiet game of defense) here in MD and John J. has flatly refused to work with us. Why is that? It's a question that needs asked and deserves answered, and kudos to Spot for having the cojones to put it to the peanut gallery.

None of that is intended to take away anything from John, his efforts, or his accomplishments...but all this secrecy and infighting amongst the pro-gunners here in MD is counter productive and I'd like to see it stopped.

[Semper Vigilo]

No need to check my fire, I found my mark.

I don't see how you could think the Col. is having his cake and eating it too.
While he admitted that he has the "authority" to make the change he also intimated that he lacks the "authority" to make the change permanent. The fact is that he's a political appointee. If he does something outside of current "political-conventional" wisdom he's out of a job. The next guy in may not be as receptive or as honorable a man as we know the Col. to be. It's not in our best interests for him to fall on his sword and it's irresponsible to ask him to. He was absolutely telling you the truth, his opinion doesn't matter. If he needs an opinion it will be given to him. If you could read between the lines you would have recognized that was what he was telling you.

MSI is what? Never read your own press. MSI is a noisy fringe group. They think that confrontation and agitation are good things. So let me get this straight, if I was a politician I would give confrontational people firearms? And I'd do this because why,they speak harshly to me? Man that's just a blank campaign check from the anti-gunners, bring it on!

Take a moment to look up the word agitate. It doesn't in any way suggest that agitation does anything more than muddy the waters. The AGC is looking to John for results. You're frustrated that John will not “join” with you. Why should he work with you? Why would he want to?


AGC is a large association with multiple ranges formed over 62 years ago.
AGC and John J. in particular mounted a huge effort to stop the AWB in 2004; fighting the gun banners as well as the NRA that wanted to compromise right away. John J. refused to compromise saying we could beat the AWB if it stayed a bad as it was. He was right and NRA was wrong.
AGC has 2 members on the handgun roster board, did you think the new locks being approved as “integral” was just a coincidence or an accident?
AGC has 1 member on the handgun permit review board, did you think the sudden change in the number of CCW rejections being reversed by the permit review board was also just coincidence or accidental?



MSI is a small group with no resources and no influence.
Henry H. at MSI sent members of the House committee a threatening letter demanding a vote on a CCW bill in 2005 even if it meant getting an AWB. It alienated committee members AND almost sold the farm.
MSI brags about getting bills submitted. As noted in another entry, there's a few thousand of those every year so that's no mean fete. How many have they gotten PASSED.
MSI seems to be so poorly organized that their members don’t even know who their own officers are.
Progunprogressive claimed that no blue hats (MSI) were called on. Don Hoffman who was sitting in a front row reserved seat was called on and he claimed to be the VP of MSI. The light haired heavy set guy in the center of the room (identified himself as a retired army officer) is also an MSI member and he was called on too. Shame these guys didn't organize anything for their members (e.g. LFoD and Helmetcase who had to stand in the back).


Let me see if I understand, you only care about yourself so you're more than happy to sell out the high-power community? There's a bigger picture here and the AGC and John see it.

Any twit with a megaphone, a PC, and a printer can agitate. Activation requires a bit more thinking and effort.

Let me simplify it for you.

Politics and management are VERY similar to dog obedience. The trick is not to force someone to do something that you want them to do because you can, it's to get them to do it from their own free will.

Haven't you ever seen someone walk their dog and the dog gets a scent of something. The dog wants to explore the smell and tries to get his master to come along by pulling on the leash. The master tries to yank the dog back in the direction but the dog just downshifts into 4x4.

If you get the dog to associate his happiness with his compliance to you he'll get more out of obeying you than the temporary thrill of a new smell. There has to be something in it for the dog, your sense of authority just doesn't do anything for the dog.

Put another way. A manager has two tools; the carrot and the stick. A smart manager will put the carrot on the stick to lead in the direction he wants to go.

The AGC has carrots that are sticks. They're going to vote, and the pols know it. They're going to contribute, and the pols know it. Do you want the carrot or does it go to the competition.

You can ask Cas Taylor about the sticks that are definitely sticks.

Once you show the stick you have to be prepared to use it. Use it too many times and the animal will retaliate in kind.

MSI doesn't come to the table with anything (no votes, no money, ergo no carrots). MSI threatens to go get a stick they don't have. Why would the AGC invite MSI?

All sound without orchestration equals noise.

AGC actually gets more out of not alligning with MSI. By letting MSI do their thing AGC comes off looking as the most reasonable and moderated of the groups.

When MSI comes to Annapolis for the hearings they've got a couple of people passing out leaflets to the folks around them. Most of which are AGC.

There's no secrecy. Go to AGC meetings, they're not going to come to you. Get yourself added to the AGC Legislative mailing list.

The army doesn't join people, people join the army. If you don't know what's going on then you should join the folks who do. AGC works across a wide spectrum and gets results, MSI is a single-issue cause that hasn't produced.

MSI needs to decide, do they want to feel important or do they want to win. In this instance these things are surely mutually exclusive.

As for the infighting, it's only the result of poorly directed agitation.

By the way Helmetcase, I got to see one of the pictures from the event. I was the guy in the Orioles hat a half-dozen people away to your right.

[Norton]

Oh boy this is going to be good. It's good to see you finally take off your cloak of objectivity and reveal yourself as nothing more than, as you say, an agitator.

MSI is a noisy fringe group.
As to being noisy....explain to me how that's a bad thing. The gun owners in this foresaken cesspool have been silent for too long and relied upon the centralized core of lobbyists to do their work for them. No disrespect to their efforts, but it's this establishment of activists who got us into this fix in the first place.

They think that confrontation and agitation are good things
Sort of like your post, huh?

I must not have been invited to that meeting. I've never seen that written or heard it discussed in any of our conversations. In fact, I would say that the correspondence that I've seen coming from MSI members as individuals and as a group have been far more polite and factual than any of the anti-gun politicians in this state deserve.

MSI is a small group with no resources and no influence.
Then why is everyone so worked up about a fringe group of loudmouths?

Activation requires a bit more thinking and effort.
And John Kerry would have fought a more sensitive war. Classic establishment arrogance....sit down, shut up and, by the way, cut us a check to help with our efforts.

When MSI comes to Annapolis for the hearings they've got a couple of people passing out leaflets to the folks around them.
Hmmm..last I counted in 2005 there were around 150-200 people who came to the hearings. A large number of those were first time attendees at hearings attracted by the new level of energy that MSI brought to the table.

In 2006, the crowds were smaller across the board but for anyone who was there it was plainly obvious that the first two rows were carrying blue hats. Couple that with the folks brought there through the efforts of Helmentcase's blog and the Maryland Shooters page and tell me again how well the establishment did at getting folks to come out?

MSI needs to decide, do they want to feel important or do they want to win. In this instance these things are surely mutually exclusive.

As for the infighting, it's only the result of poorly directed agitation.

No.....you, whatever your association with the AGC is, are making it a mutually exclusive arrangement of it being "you're either with us or against us" (gee where have I heard that before?). Once again, if MSI is such a fringe group of insignificant loudmouths, why is everyone so worked up?

The only agitation evident to anyone with at least a fourth grade education is on your part. No one here doubts the sincerity AGC's legislative efforts, John J. or no John J. yet the establishment activists seem to take great glee in questioning the legitimacy of the work of the several hundred newfound activists that MSI has generated in the last 18 months.

[Lambo]

Politics aside, Great Food and even got a chance to bust a few Clays between rain drops!
Thanks John!
I sense a little flustration setting in for alot of pro-gunners here in Maryland! **** Happens! Just keep plugging! Don't allow flustration make you throw your hands up and walk away! Bottle the anger, go forth with new Plans of Action. Put the Foe on the Defensive! "Attack Attack Attack " Hit them from all sides with everything you got!
I've been an Activist for around 40 years and I can say that In-Fighting has destroyed many a good movement. Don't let it happen!

[Spot77]

By the way Lambo, the sign on your truck looks great. How's the business going?


I smell a rat here.....maybe with the initials J.P.? Sure sounds like the same yada yada....maybe AGC will honor Henry with another "cutesy" (see I DID learn something from John's post) website like Tripwire did.

Henry WOULD have invited all members of MSI, but John refused to answer Henry's email regarding the purpose of the event and what the expected outcome would be. Resonable questions by somebody who cares enough to demand a little information before acting blindly. MSI's mission is a legislative fix, not some temporary "patch" by a political appointee (as mentioned in a previous post) If a temporary fix is in, that's all that needed to be said and the AGC would've had another 100 people there. It was simple, and reasonable to ask before acting.

There will be no more, "Sit down and sit back" regardless of who is at the helm and how much experience they have. I thank John and every other activist who puts time, money and sweat into this mess in Maryland, but I won't be told what to do without an explanation.

You can ask Cas Taylor about the sticks that are definitely sticks.


As for that, I credit Ed Patrick and Phil Lee, NOT the AGC.

AGC and John J. in particular mounted a huge effort to stop the AWB in 2004

So did many other gun groups. I heard about the bill from THR, not any AGC email that I got. And I saw more "future" MSI members there than AGC members (that I know and recognize at least. I'm sure plenty were there, but let's be fair the same people that move for MSI were a major presence at the hearings also. Same thing every year.). Your contention that AGC soley stopped the 04' AWB is BUNK. Perhaps I have a personal relationship with a certain Senator that also made a huge difference.....ya' just never know, do you? But I know where credit is due for that, and it's not soley the AGC, MSRPA, MSI, Tripwire or any other group. it was the combined effort and the show of force we put together as individual groups. Something that MSI works for, but the old guard refuses to acknowledge.

Enough rambling. The users here at THR know what it takes to win and it won't soley be any of the "Kings"....(that's my joke for the day...."King John (Josselyn), King Henry (Heymering), King James (Purtilo). Who am I missing?


On another note: What's the scoop on the "new " gunshop opening up next door to Valley Gun? :scrutiny: I didn't get a chance to ask Sandy about it.

[Lambo]

By the way Lambo, the sign on your truck looks great. How's the business going?

Thanks, They (Signs) better look good. They cost me $178.00:what:
Sales: Could be better! Price increases haven't helped. As you know I've only been in Business since January. In that time span there's been 3 price increases layed on me by my Supplier. The Bottom Line, Wholesale Prices increased 30% from last year. Of course this has to be passed onto the consumer which is detering Sales. Add to it Gas and everything else that goes along with it leaves the average person with little or no extra $s for the finer things in life! On top of the forementioned there hasn't been a Show in a month. This is where I seem to do the Bulk of my Sales. All and All its looks like I didn't pick a good time to start a Business!
I plan to do the Izaak Walton League Gun Show, May 13-14 2006 in Dallastown, Pa.. Have a Flier with all Info. Anyone interested can e-mail for a Copy, bsatrapshoot@yahoo.com

[Semper Vigilo]

Sorry guys I call it like I see it. Sorry if I struck a nerve, too.

Let's get back to the point and drop the posturing and chest puffing.

"Henry WOULD have invited all members of MSI, but John refused to answer Henry's email regarding the purpose of the event and what the expected outcome would be."

Umm, why didn't Henry just say, "hey guys, don't really know what's going on because they won't tell me but this just might be worth going to".

What's that all about? Sounds like a cult of personality thing. What's it have to do with our rights? Sounds like some folks lost their right to make up their own minds.

If you're looking for a legislative fix then talk to a legislator, don't confront the Col. he isn't in the legislature. As for talking to a legislator, if you've got one in your pocket then I'm REALLY disappointed in your results.

"And I saw more "future" MSI members there than AGC members (that I know and recognize at least. I'm sure plenty were there, but let's be fair the same people that move for MSI were a major presence at the hearings also. Same thing every year."

Then you guys need to buy more blue hats. More "Future" members? This is the same hyperbole that the anti-gunners use. It's not working too well for them. Stick to what you can prove in numbers.

It's just that kind of rambling that get us in trouble. It's unfocused. I'm sorry if you want to be important, but I have to stand opposed. Your importance is going to cost me my rights.

"As to being noisy....explain to me how that's a bad thing. The gun owners in this foresaken cesspool have been silent for too long and relied upon the centralized core of lobbyists to do their work..."

Yeah sometimes the squeeky wheel gets the grease, sometimes it gets replaced. There was a TV commercial that says it all "if you want someone's attention whisper". You only let people you trust close enough so they can whisper. For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. Noise repels. I started to vote more regularly just to vote against the noisy anti-gunners. What's to say you won't cause more people to come out just to counter-vote you? I can't say it any better than that.

But this is why vocal fringe groups are so dangerous. The folks who don't trust us as a whole enough to look beyond the fringe think you guys speak for me and you don't. I have to raise my voice to be heard over you. If you think that I'm agitating then stop for a moment. You don't much care for me? In this moment I am your mirror, this is how you look to the rest of us.

"And John Kerry would have fought a more sensitive war. Classic establishment arrogance....sit down, shut up and, by the way, cut us a check to help with our efforts."

You fight like my wife. Ummm, the establishment is still Republican, Kerry isn't. I know, I know, my Mom dresses me funny. What's that got to do with my gun rights? The opposition loves it when you get off topic, it means that they've lessened the risk a decision will be made based on logic rather than emotion.

"Hmmm..last I counted in 2005 there were around 150-200 people who came to the hearings. A large number of those were first time attendees at hearings attracted by the new level of energy that MSI brought to the table."

Sounds great, but will it make my whites whiter? C'mon that's a throwaway line. Honestly, I never heard of you guys before and I was there. Guess that means you and your tactics are too easy to dismiss from our side. Got numbers, use 'em. Still fightin' like my wife.

"In 2006, the crowds were smaller across the board but for anyone who was there it was plainly obvious that the first two rows were carrying blue hats. Couple that with the folks brought there through the efforts of Helmentcase's blog and the Maryland Shooters page and tell me again how well the establishment did at getting folks to come out?"

Ummm, the AGC waved us off, this was a boilerplate session. Same bills that got quashed before came back for another stomp because the sponsor promised somebody they'd submit it (sorry this is an intended dig, sort of like your bill). You see, I work for a living and I save my leave for when I'm really needed. They gave me all the information, I was able to decide for myself if I felt I needed to go and John confirmed the AGC didn't need the head count this session.

Let me mirror again, if my arguments have no merit do they deserve this much attention?

We're at a critical time, if we join ranks there's a good chance that we can make things happen this year. Is it all you ever wanted? Hell no, baby steps dudes. It is my opinion that outside of this forum where the rest of the world can see...you're a dangerous distraction. You guys are still the tail not the dog. Dog can live without a tail.

Dog or tail - put up or shut up. Why doesn't MSI contact the Col. the Capt. and the gov and set up it's own meeting? Include the "mystery" legislator in your pocket.

This just feels like I'm talking to some pathetic kid that will kick and scream to get attention, even negative attention will suffice. I'm partly to blame because I've given you attention. If you haven't seen the light you're not going to. I have too many other things to do than feed your addiction.

I made a mistake and I'm sorry, I thought this was about gun rights.

[Spot77]

Umm, why didn't Henry just say, "hey guys, don't really know what's going on because they won't tell me but this just might be worth going to".


You should ask Henry that. Oh wait....John doesn't answer emails and I'm sure you don't speak directly for John.

If you're looking for a legislative fix then talk to a legislator, don't confront the Col. he isn't in the legislature. As for talking to a legislator, if you've got one in your pocket then I'm REALLY disappointed in your results.


I didn't hear anybody confronting the good Colonel. But I might have missed something. And don't assume that anybody that DID act confrontational towards him spoke on an MSI position. Henry is the spokesperson, and that's HIS job.

Well let's see....hmmm..No AWB for the last three sessions, plus all of the other crap bills got tossed in the drawer. I'd say we had a good collective impact. Certainly better than all the years prior to 2004.

Then you guys need to buy more blue hats. More "Future" members? This is the same hyperbole that the anti-gunners use. It's not working too well for them. Stick to what you can prove in numbers

Since MSI didn't form until AFTER the 2004 legislative session, the people I see working with MSI now are the same peope I saw at the 2004 AWB hearing. Make sense now or do you wish to continue to do nothing but hurl insults?

I'm sorry if you want to be important, but I have to stand opposed. Your importance is going to cost me my rights.


I don't need you to apologize for not understanding. I've been repeating the same line for the last three years, "I don't care who gets it done, just get it done." I'd be content sitting back and sending a check to somebody to fight the cause if I thought somebody was getting REAL reusults...like say VCDL does in Virginia. Are you trying to tell everybody to sit back, be patient and see what the knights on the great white horses bring us?

I have to raise my voice to be heard over you. [QUOTE]
But see, nobody would have to raise their voices if they answered a few emails. That, is at the very least, a professional courtesy. "Dear Henry and MSI members, The AGC CCW Conference is strictly to discuss current procedures and blah blah blah. We hope to accomplish X,Y, and Z."

See how easy that is?


[QUOTE]Ummm, the AGC waved us off, this was a boilerplate session. Same bills that got quashed before came back for another stomp

And that is a dangerous ploy which breeds complacency. Numbers show strength and regardless of whether a bill has legs this year or not, it'll keep coming back untill legislators get tired of us filling up their lovely new hearing room. Again, me personally...I'll NEVER sit back and let anybody suggest I stay home. What if EVERYBODY did that? There was a few articles printed in the local papers regarding the gun bill hearings. How would they read if our point of view wasn't presented strongly? Here's what I can see:

"Several anti crime bills were presented yesterday with concerned citizens being represented by Ceasefire MD, a strong anti crime advocacy group. Other proponents of the bills included Mont County Executive and gubernatorial candidate Doug Duncan, several Baltimore City police officers and representatives of the Md Police Chiefs Association. Few opposed the common sense measures citing their right to keep and bear arms."

You can say all the negative things you want, but the fact is MSI brings hundreds of dedicated, new activists to various events around the state (ok, so that I don't get the anticipated response of "hundreds? I've never seen hundreds" I will clarify by saying that I too have never seen all of those hundreds at one event at the same time.

This just feels like I'm talking to some pathetic kid that will kick and scream to get attention, even negative attention will suffice. I'm partly to blame because I've given you attention. If you haven't seen the light you're not going to. I have too many other things to do than feed your addiction.

I made a mistake and I'm sorry, I thought this was about gun rights.

Thank you for that highly mature and well anticpated closing. Just when you started bringing up relevant points, you quit and wanted to take your ball and go home.

Now, instead of continuing your personal assault on those hundreds of activists, do you care to actually DISCUSS the issue, or is it still more fun for you to be a mudslinger? I thought you wanted to stop the "posturing and chest puffing"???

[Semper Vigilo]

I may regret this.

Final Points (in order of importance)

• Who are the players?
Whether anyone likes it or not the administration doesn't want to talk to a crowd of people with varying agendas. It wants to work with a consolidated front. That front has already been recognized by the administration; it's the AGC.
• Who’s better able to represent the gun-community as a whole?
Moot point, waste of time and energy to argue. The administration recognizes the AGC. The AGC has been around for quite a few decades and had a presence in Annapolis for 12-13 years. MSI has been around for 2 years.

• Treating our members of the gun community with respect.
While it would be nice if every email could be answered the reality is that some emails further the cause and some do not. If it were up to me and I had to pick between answering an email asking how they can help versus one that seems to question my methods and motives....well that's an easy call. Should John have gotten back to Henry, maybe if he had the time, but I don't know that he did. With all of this nonsense going on if I was him I’d content myself to leave this yelping dog yelp; nothing I could say would heal this dog’s bruised ego. It’s not that someone was rude to Henry but that you feel illegitimate. This meeting wasn’t about including or excluding MSI, it was about our rights. The reality is also that even though Henry didn't get his response, the room got filled. About 3-5% of the room was MSI. In effect, for the purposes of a body-count MSI was "statistically insignificant". I still have my doubts that Henry showed John any respect when he sent his email. Don't know, just have my doubts.
It’s the last point that I feel is your issue and that’s just a waste of time. We're not here to validate you or make you feel important, we're here to stand up for our rights.

Why do I feel this way? Perhaps it's how much you contradict yourself.


You say you refuse to let anyone speak for you and then you tell us that Henry is your mouthpiece.

You say that people should be told what’s going on when the AGC didn’t tell you then you say that it’s okay that Henry didn’t tell you about the event.

You say that MSI is a force but when it’s evidence time we get either vague answers, exaggeration, or deflection (e.g. didn’t exist prior to 2004).

You say I'm insulting the "hundreds" of MSI folks, yet you insult everyone in this forum thinking that these sound-bites you toss out are justification for your position. Hogwash.


Maybe you just like to fight or maybe you’re Henry? I know you're not John.

Okay, if you want to help with the first point, who cares if it's John, Dick, or Henry; join the party already in progress. If you want help with the second point repeat the answer for the first point and make attributable contributions. If you want help with the third point, well buy me a drink (I won’t listen for long without there being something in it for me) or buy a dog.

[Semper Vigilo]

I may regret this.

Final Points (in order of importance)

• Who are the players?
Whether anyone likes it or not the administration doesn't want to talk to a crowd of people with varying agendas. It wants to work with a consolidated front. That front has already been recognized by the administration; it's the AGC.
• Who’s better able to represent the gun-community as a whole?
Moot point, waste of time and energy to argue. The administration recognizes the AGC. The AGC has been around for quite a few decades and had a presence in Annapolis for 12-13 years. MSI has been around for 2 years.

• Treating our members of the gun community with respect.
While it would be nice if every email could be answered the reality is that some emails further the cause and some do not. If it were up to me and I had to pick between answering an email asking how they can help versus one that seems to question my methods and motives....well that's an easy call. Should John have gotten back to Henry, maybe if he had the time, but I don't know that he did. With all of this nonsense going on if I was him I’d content myself to leave this yelping dog yelp; nothing I could say would heal this dog’s bruised ego. It’s not that someone was rude to Henry but that you feel illegitimate. This meeting wasn’t about including or excluding MSI, it was about our rights. The reality is also that even though Henry didn't get his response, the room got filled. About 3-5% of the room was MSI. In effect, for the purposes of a body-count MSI was "statistically insignificant". I still have my doubts that Henry showed John any respect when he sent his email. Don't know, just have my doubts.
It’s the last point that I feel is your issue and that’s just a waste of time. We're not here to validate you or make you feel important, we're here to stand up for our rights.

Why do I feel this way? Perhaps it's how much you contradict yourself.


You say you refuse to let anyone speak for you and then you tell us that Henry is your mouthpiece.

You say that people should be told what’s going on when the AGC didn’t tell you then you say that it’s okay that Henry didn’t tell you about the event.

You say that MSI is a force but when it’s evidence time we get either vague answers, exaggeration, or deflection (e.g. didn’t exist prior to 2004).

You say I'm insulting the "hundreds" of MSI folks, yet you insult everyone in this forum thinking that these sound-bites you toss out are justification for your position. Hogwash.


Maybe you just like to fight or maybe you’re Henry? I know you're not John.

Okay, if you want to help with the first point, who cares if it's John, Dick, or Henry; join the party already in progress. If you want help with the second point repeat the answer for the first point and make attributable contributions. If you want help with the third point, well buy me a drink (I won’t listen for long without there being something in it for me) or buy a dog.

[Helmetcase]

Found your mark? If by that you mean needlessly continuing the gun group infighting, then I'd say so.

I don't see how you could think the Col. is having his cake and eating it too.
While he admitted that he has the "authority" to make the change he also intimated that he lacks the "authority" to make the change permanent.
Bullhuckey. This is simple--its up to him who gets permits. When pressured on why more of us don't get them, he hides behind a statute that, in the end, says its up to him.

Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.

The fact is that he's a political appointee. If he does something outside of current "political-conventional" wisdom he's out of a job.
He works for Ehrlich. I thought Bobby E. was on our side?

He was absolutely telling you the truth, his opinion doesn't matter. If he needs an opinion it will be given to him. If you could read between the lines you would have recognized that was what he was telling you.
Don't patronize me, I get that very well--the point is that he's telling you one of two things--either Ehrlich isn't really for us, or he doesn't care or doesn't want to make any real motion on the issue and the Col. sees no real reason to move toward will issue.

MSI is what? Never read your own press. MSI is a noisy fringe group.
Were you at any of the Gun Bill Days in either the House or Senate this year? MSI had more representatives than any other organization. People like you resent MSI because we get off our asses and actually do the leg work. Not making noise certainly won't get us anywhere, but we do just a bit more than that. But thanks for passing on a meaningless ad hominem.

They think that confrontation and agitation are good things.
No, we think being politically active instead of being keyboard warriors are a good thing. We're hardly confrontational, but we do call it like we see it.

Keep on with the unfounded, unsupportable ad hominem bull****. It's really doing wonders for your case. :barf:

So let me get this straight, if I was a politician I would give confrontational people firearms?
Politicians don't give anyone firearms, we have to defend our rights to keep and bear them. Politicians certainly don't respect the rights of people they don't hear from or think represent a substantial voting bloc. Glad to see you making more excuses for inactivity. I think you should adjust your user name.

And I'd do this because why,they speak harshly to me? Man that's just a blank campaign check from the anti-gunners, bring it on!
Who exactly are we "speaking harshly" too, anyway?

Henry H. at MSI sent members of the House committee a threatening letter demanding a vote on a CCW bill in 2005 even if it meant getting an AWB. It alienated committee members AND almost sold the farm.
Really? I'd like to see a copy. Smells like bull@#$% here pal.

MSI brags about getting bills submitted. As noted in another entry, there's a few thousand of those every year so that's no mean fete. How many have they gotten PASSED.
How many have YOU gotten passed? I've got Dels. Smigiel and Dwyer on record as supporting MSI and pointing out that their continued support for getting CCW bills on the table each year is the tool they need to keep quashing Quinter's idiotic bills.

MSI seems to be so poorly organized that their members don’t even know who their own officers are.
Bull**** ad hominem. We know exactly who they are.

Progunprogressive claimed that no blue hats (MSI) were called on. Don Hoffman who was sitting in a front row reserved seat was called on and he claimed to be the VP of MSI.
And I was right (in case you can't tell, I'm PGP...I should probably change my user name here). Don wasn't wearing his blue hat when he was called upon. He identified himself after he was called upon.

The light haired heavy set guy in the center of the room (identified himself as a retired army officer) is also an MSI member and he was called on too.
Wasn't wearing his hat either.

MSI doesn't come to the table with anything (no votes, no money, ergo no carrots). MSI threatens to go get a stick they don't have. Why would the AGC invite MSI?AGC has votes? Baloney, as Spot already pointed out. AGC didn't take Cas's head, so quit giving them credit for something they didn't do.

If AGC has so many people in it's pocket, where were they on gun bill day?

AGC actually gets more out of not alligning with MSI. By letting MSI do their thing AGC comes off looking as the most reasonable and moderated of the groups.
Baloney again. I've talked regularly with our best friends on the Judiciary committee in the house and Senate. Believe me, it's the blue hats they're noticing. Moderated? Try "we don't even see 'em".

When MSI comes to Annapolis for the hearings they've got a couple of people passing out leaflets to the folks around them. Most of which are AGC.

Another ad hominem! You obviously weren't there this year. Admit it, because if you were you'd have seen that that's simply not the case. We were the largest group there, and we don't rely on AGC for lit or leaflets.

We're willing to work with AGC, I can assure you. The fact is, our door is open to them but not vice versa.

The army doesn't join people, people join the army. If you don't know what's going on then you should join the folks who do. AGC works across a wide spectrum and gets results, MSI is a single-issue cause that hasn't produced.

Single issue? You're batting 0 for 10 here. MSI supports just about every gun rights initiative you can think of. Don't be offput by the name. As for the "army", remind me again which group had the most representatives on Gun Bill Day? Oh yeah! It was MSI!

If you'd square your arguments with the facts, we'd respect you in the morning.

Who are the players?
Whether anyone likes it or not the administration doesn't want to talk to a crowd of people with varying agendas. It wants to work with a consolidated front. That front has already been recognized by the administration; it's the AGC.
• Who’s better able to represent the gun-community as a whole?
Moot point, waste of time and energy to argue. The administration recognizes the AGC. The AGC has been around for quite a few decades and had a presence in Annapolis for 12-13 years. MSI has been around for 2 years.

Don't rest on your laurels with these two points: both things that will change with time if AGC remains complacent and more folks realize that the dynamic, growing group is MSI. More reason for us to work in concert, not compete.

The reality is also that even though Henry didn't get his response, the room got filled. About 3-5% of the room was MSI. In effect, for the purposes of a body-count MSI was "statistically insignificant". I still have my doubts that Henry showed John any respect when he sent his email. Don't know, just have my doubts.

At some point it's not about counting numbers. By your own admission it's about winning in the legislature, not with Col. Hutchings. That's where the numbers count, and if you're gonna count numbers we're ahead there, if not at an informational seminar. I've seen Henry's correspondence with John, and it's not disrespectful. So you're simply engaged in proctological verbalization here.

[Semper Vigilo]

Gee, you sure told me off!

Well that changes EVERYTHING; never mind.

You just go back to whatever little thing you were doin' there. I can see you are very important and very busy. I'll show my self out.

[molonlabe]

I'm not sure what the response from AGC was about but. This is what I have to say about that....

http://www.myownjournal.com/i/icons/users/7693_awww.jpg



Gee, I just read the rest of the post, Stick a fork in Maryland America, we are done.

Henry H. at MSI sent members of the House committee a threatening letter demanding a vote on a CCW bill in 2005 even if it meant getting an AWB. It alienated committee members AND almost sold the farm.

I've heard this before but I never saw anyone produce proof. If you have it it would bury msi.

btw. I don't belong to MSI but AGC so where is the proof??? I and countless other Maryland gun owners need to know.

[K-Romulus]

Gee, I just read the rest of the post, Stick a fork in Maryland America, we are done.

Say it ain't so!:(

It would suck for us to implode now . . . imagine how much worse it will be with NO momentum, going up in the legislative hearings against Comptroller Franchot, AG Gansler, and MSP Secretary Manger or Livesay! :what:

As an aside, I sent MSI $50 over two months ago, and never got mentioned in the "donor thanks" section of the weekly email alerts . . . maybe I should demand a refund! :neener:

(we return to our local jello wrestle)

[Helmetcase]

Molonlabe,
That's one of the problems with the Internet. You can lob baseless charges like that around behind an anonymous screen name and face little in the way of repercussions for such slanders.

Is MSI perfect? Nope. Is anyone? I doubt it.

But I won't stand idly by and have an organization that's important to me be grossly mischaracterized.

[Spot77]

going up in the legislative hearings against Comptroller Franchot, AG Gansler, and MSP Secretary Manger or Livesay

And don't forget "Gov Duncan" or "Gov O'Malley"....


I tried to steer this thread back on course to actually discuss things properly, but the new troll in our midst just wishes to continue being antagonistic.

Stick a fork in Maryland America, we are done.

No, as gloomy as it looks, I'd say we're far from done. The same infighting happened last year as people scurried to take credit or pass the buck for whatever happened in the legislative session.

Gee, you sure told me off!

Well that changes EVERYTHING; never mind.

You just go back to whatever little thing you were doin' there. I can see you are very important and very busy. I'll show my self out.

Nobody's asking you to leave. Nobody's questioning the dedication of AGC (And remember, many of MSI's members ARE AGC members too. The two are not mutually exclusive, except from AGC's leadership's perspective it seems like)

This thread wasn't even ABOUT a 1 vs. 2 until John felt the need to log on here and insult the 29,244 members, and 8,191 active members of THR with his comments about "scurrying about in anonymity" and "hiding behind cutesy monikers". And then you logged on and turned it into a pissing match. And still managed to dodge the issue. I've asked permission of one of MSI's EM's to post part of his analysis of AGC's actions here. I think it's pretty encouraging, but his conclusion would fall short of making MD a shall issue state.

I can live with that for now given the incredible odds against us in the legislature. If he allows me to repost his email, I'd like to hear everybody's opinion on it.

[Semper Vigilo]

Sorry for my part in the escalation. Suppose I'm just the newest troll (doesn't seem to be a shortage of them here). Guess I deserve it this time.

I get a little hot under the collar when folks expect too much from the people who volunteer to stick their necks out for the rights of the rest of us.

Like I said, I know John and he's a pretty decent guy. He's also a charitable guy to people in need. He's sometimes forced to be in the spotlight, by his nature he's not comfortable there. I know it's cost him too. Perhaps the entry John responded took on a life of it's own outside this forum and he took some undeserved grief. I heard John didn't go looking for it, it found him. Somebody gave him a heads up and I guess he went to the source to nip it in the bud.

I think that's a pretty stand up thing to do. Kindof like when the Col. stood up for his Capt. when someone pushed their point too hard. He took issue with the questioner directly. (I thought John was going to beat the Col. to it, it was an insult to our MDSP guests and to the hosts). I think most of the folks there agreed because the applause were pretty strong after he did it.

I don't think everyone on this site was insulted, I think that's really just a limited few. Don't really know what that's about, but I guess it was a blister that was gonna pop if not now then sometime later. Does not excuse me from my part for which I am guilty.

Shouldn't have anything to do with CCW and is outside of this discussion.

I think a good thing's about to happen if we support it. What specifically, you know I don't think anyone really knows, but I welcome any progress.

I can't see any reason why anyone on this forum would not want to support this effort. Be skeptical? Sure, you've learned that lesson the hard way. But be pessimistic, what good does that do? It invites failure.

I hope we can all drop our agendas, jealousies, and whatever other baggage we've got and give whatever support we can offer.

The AGC has the ball in play, let's give 'em a chance.

Again, I put my foot in it and I'm feeling pretty badly about the whole affair. Please forgive me for my part.

[Semper Vigilo]

Suppose I should also apologize to the AGC. Some folks may take them to task for my posts and I am NOT even in a member club.

Guess I should put my money where my mouth is and join one.

I do hope they accept my apology and thanks.

[Semper Vigilo]

I'd love to see the analysis.

I'd be surprised if the climate for a shall issue bill would be available before the end of this decade. These things take time.

[molonlabe]

As a Maryland gunowner it grieves me to see this sort of infighting. I lived in California and was a member the CRPA for years. We fought a good fight but lost. I left prior to the 94AWB and I can assure you I will never go back in it's current climate. We cannot afford for it to happen here. Maryland gun owners can make your decision and AGC has graciously provided a contact point for you to discuss the issues. I have made my decision and support trip wire and AGC.

[Maryland Shall Issue]

Hi Semper Viglio -

Wow! I'm impressed. Apologizing is something many folks will never do. It shows real class.

Y'all have been talking about me, so I thought I'd drop in and say a few words.

I have nothing but respect for John Josselyn. He's done a lot of good for gun rights and for much longer than I've been around. We've had a link to the AGC since the first day our web site went up.

I don't understand the complaints that I (and MSI) didn't 'support' the conference.

It was standing room only, right? What would have been gained by having more people there? Full is full, right? Could we have asked more questions? Been more intimidating? Reported back to our members better?

I didn't understand how larger numbers of MSI folks would have been a help, so I asked John to explain it to me. He didn't, so I was left not seeing a purpose to trying to motivate large numbers of our members to attend.

Personally, I don't see any need for all of us to do the same thing. It's a bit like the various states of the United States. Florida moves to shall-issue and their violent crime rate plummets ... other states take notice and do the same, because it worked. Our various groups here in Maryland can do likewise ... each doing what they think is appropriate .... when one of them does something that works then the others can take notice and do likewise. I think the variety of approaches is very helpful.

What is not helpful is the infighting between groups. We've tried to avoid that and will continue to try to avoid that ... it only helps our enemies.

- Henry Heymering

[SL4SI]

I am a member of MSI and I have nothing but the upmost respect for people like Henry, John and others who have taken the helm in this battle. The only problem I see is all the infighting, all this does is distract everyone from our main goal. Maybe I should take my wifes advise and move the family to GA.

[John H. Josselyn-Legislative VP]

For those who enjoy math and riddles:

13-8-2+5-5-1+24-20-3+79-53-9 = ?

1. What does the equation represent?
2. What is the significance of the number “1”?
3. What is the significance of the number “4”?
4. Why is the number “4” twice as significant as the number “1”?
5. The number “18” is an important number; why is it missing from the equation?

Give this some thought - the answers are as simple as they are surprising.

Answer the questions correctly and post them on this thread (to eliminate any question as to who solved the riddle first) and you win a free box of pistol ammunition (your choice of caliber, type and brand) on me. Answers must be posted by midnight Monday May 1st.

The answers will appear in the May 2nd AGC Legislative Report.

[molonlabe]

A link

http://www.associatedgunclubs.org/legislative.htm

[Semper Vigilo]

Simple? Yeah, I'd be surprised if they were simple.

Guess I gotta tune in, I'll never get it.

[Spot77]

How about if we get to ask a few questions......

For example (as an example ONLY; if you agree to answer any questions to give clues then I might not want this counted against us!)

1. Would you have to be an AGC member to know the answers?

2. Are the equations related to the seminar, ccw in general, this particular thread, Md politics, how many pimples are on a 12 year old's face.....I think we would need at least some point to begin with.

Your choice as to whether or not you want to provide some direction of course......but I think more people would participate if they at least had an idea where to start.

Oh, for the record, I hate math and riddles. :barf:

[John H. Josselyn-Legislative VP]

How about if we get to ask a few questions......

For example (as an example ONLY; if you agree to answer any questions to give clues then I might not want this counted against us!)

1. Would you have to be an AGC member to know the answers?

NO

2. Are the equations related to the seminar, ccw in general, this particular thread, Md politics, how many pimples are on a 12 year old's face.....I think we would need at least some point to begin with.

YES (to all but the zits)

Your choice as to whether or not you want to provide some direction of course......but I think more people would participate if they at least had an idea where to start.

This is going to be difficult to answer with giving away the answer. A curse upon thee Spot: May you always own too many guns to clean in only one day!

Here goes:

The equation is the problem, but it is not an insoluble riddle. It is easy to understand, but difficult to solve. If you understand the equation, you will see the problem. If you can identify the problem, you can work on a solution. If you work hard on the solution and succeed, good things will follow.

Oh, for the record, I hate math and riddles.

WE AGREE ON SOMETHING! But this is a lot more entertaining than trying to figure out why the DNR won't allow you to hunt deer with a mortar during muzzleloader season!

[Semper Vigilo]

You sure about the mortar thing?

So much for hitting it, gutting it, and punting to the bed of the pickup in one shot.

I suppose that the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch is right out then. Anyone got a recent copy of the Book of Armaments?

[Spot77]

This is going to be difficult to answer with giving away the answer. A curse upon thee Spot: May you always own too many guns to clean in only one day!


That's the nicest thing anybody has said to me all year! I'd have to think really hard to count them all up, but I think I'll need that curse to put me over the edge.


But this is a lot more entertaining than trying to figure out why the DNR won't allow you to hunt deer with a mortar during muzzleloader season


Oh c'mon! THAT would be hilarious.....:House Bill 1234 "Hunting with Small Explosives"....can you see Chairman Vallario trying to keep a straight face while we testified in favor of that?

Ceasefire Md's opposition testimony, "The state of Texas has seen a 2,000% increase in drive-by mortar attacks since passing similar legislation in 1792. These rapid fire, highly concealable death machines are the weapons of choice for homicidal middle aged white men intent on murdering the young babies of Baltimore City! These weapons of mass destruction are easily available through the gun show loophole and can be bought for as little as $4.99 each...the mere cost of a tall Starbucks double espresso mango-vanilla latte" :neener: