[Newton]

The wife and I are planning on doing some hiking in Black Bear country (actually alien abduction country but that's a whole 'nuther story :uhoh: ).

I have a .40 Beretta that I absolutely hate (it's a 9000F), a USP 9mm compact, a Hi Power in 9mm, and a .38 4 inch.

I don't really want to buy a new gun right now, and like I said, I really don't like the Beretta even though it's my most powerful gun, but I do know of at least one case where a SiG P239 in .40S&W was used to kill an attacking Black Bear.

I know I should go out and buy a .44 Magnum, or a 10mm Glock 20, but I'm thinking of "making do" with one of my 9mms, either the H&K or the Hi Power, pointless maybe - but how about the Hi Power and a nice big can of bear pepper spray.

What would you do?

[Surefire]

At an absolute minimum, a .357 magnum loaded with 200 grain bullets....

Why not sell the Beretta that you do not like and possibly one other gun and use that money to buy a .357 magnum or .44 magnum revolver?

[ribbonstone]

Makes a differnce if you run into Boo-Boo or if you run into Yogi,,,bears come in different sizes.

Seems you are set on a semi-auto hunting handgun...why not sell what you don't like, save some bucks, and get one of the few semi-autos that are specific to the task?

[Cueball]

Settling for one of your 9's instead of taking a weapon appropriate to the task could be a decision that you would regret. Go with the 40 or go get another gun.

[rchernandez]

Bear country? For my own piece of mind...I'd lug a Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70 but that's just me.

[Richard]

Newton, if they are bears both of you should wear a little bell; the noise will keep the bears away. Allowing for this, the BHP 9mm should be fine. Regards, Richard :D

[MDG1976]

357 mag would be a good mimimum for bear. Aliens have thin skin so a 9mm should be fine for them.

[Erich]

Perhaps this recent thread from the S&W Forum will be of interest:
Bear Gun: What Gun to Actually SEE a Bear?
http://smith-wessonforum.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/530103904/m/3191008421

I think you'll be fine with any of your guns. I've been alternately frustrated and disgusted with the black bear fear that's running amok in the country (Not saying that's what you're promulgating here, but there've just been so many of these threads lately), so I admire your restraint in not running right out and buying a .500 S&W to deal with the "black bear menace." Your rational approach to examining this issue is to be commended.

I live in what's been known as "Bear Canyon" since it was "Cañon del Oso" in the Spanish Colonial days. :) They get into our garbage cans if we leave them out, and I see their sign all the time (they're tenderfoot and they use the trails), but they stay out of my way.

(Up behind my house)
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/Erich505/mountain.jpg

I hike all the time, and I carry. My gun is for 1) dogs, 2) human idiots, and 3) big cats, in that order (the cougars scare me a lot more than bears - you know how cats can be). I suppose I could shoot a bear with it, too . . . but I'd be just stunned if this would ever prove necessary. In all seriousness, I think I'm more likely to be struck by lightning (check the stats: NM has the highest lightning death rate of any state ;) ). If it is necessary to shoot a bear, I figure my people gun will probably do an adequate job on the skinny 150-300 lb black bears we get here in NM. (I've got a friend who gets at least one blackie a year with a short-barrelled .357 and whatever factory 158-grainers he happens to have in the gun.) As I've said several times before, blackies are more akin in behavior to giant raccoons than terminator grizzlies. Tough critters, to be sure, but nothing to wet your pants about. :)

Black bear attacks almost always happen when the vic is sleeping, the one last week notwithstanding (however, since I'm not a little girl . . .). There was a nice little old lady actually killed here in NM by a black bear as she slept about three years ago. Came into her house and ate her. There were some boy scouts who were gnawed on when they were sleeping in a tent up by Cimmaron, NM a couple years ago. They beat it with a stick, and it split. If you're not planning on sleeping outdoors, you're probably golden.

Anyway, I can tell you that hiking around my house with a 1076, a 65-5, or a 36-1, I'm almost guaranteed to see bear sign (except in the coldest part of winter) - but the bears themselves appear to be avoiding me.

Here's the good ol' shot-placement guide for black bear, in case you need to shoot one after all: http://www.nbef.org/pdfs/bearshotplacement.pdf#search='bear%20shot%20placement'

[bpisler]

I'am thinking a slightly used 357 mag
revolver wouldn't be too hard to find.
I would go with a 4 to 6" barrel and a
GP-100,686 or even a old model 28 to
handle the heavy 357 hunting loads.
Cor-bon,buffalo Bore,Federal,Winchester
and others all make ammo that would
work.Of course a decent 12 gauge loaded
with slugs wouldn't be a half bad ideal
either.

[roscoe]

You can easily get a used Ruger Service Six for $200. It can handle any .357 load, including the 200-grain hardcast loads that you might want for bear or velociraptors.

[cookekdjr]

9mm should be fine. I'd stick w/fmj's though.
-David

[Erich]

Good thought.

[Vern Humphrey]

I have black bears on my property all the time -- they don't bother humans. I sometimes carry a Colt New Service or Ruger Blackhawk, both in .45, but it's because I like those guns. I'm just as likely to be carrying a .22 pistol or a Colt SAA in .357 loaded with powder-puff .38 Specials.

There are, of course some bears who haven't read the rule book, but they're rare. My advice to you would be to pick the gun you shoot best -- there really isn't all that much difference between the various calibers. A hit with a .38 is better than a miss with a .40.

[Vitamin G]

If you hate the .40 that much (I do too), why not sell it\trade it on something you DO like, that might be appropriate? I wouldn't hesitate to carry a G20 loaded with some nice hot stuff. EAA witness either. Both will give you 15+1 rounds of mild bear repellent.

[MCgunner]

You can have your autoloaders, I'll stick with my Blackhawk...;) I haven't seen the service auto that can top the Blackhawk for a combination of 900 ft lbs of 300 grain bullet plus 4moa accuracy out of a 4 5/8" barrel. :D

Any SA or DA revolver from .357 up would be the choice I'd make. If you don't have a good L frame or GP100, here's your excuse to buy an extremely versatile revolver.

[Mainsail]

As a hiker here in WA, I've been very interested in bears and cougars. From everything I've read, a big can of pepper spray has proven more effective than any handgun.

Just my 2 cents.

[Vern Humphrey]

a big can of pepper spray has proven more effective than any handgun.

Well, here in the Ozarks, I never heard anyone say, "Sure as a big can of pepper spray.":p

[MCgunner]

Vern, wouldn't that be "Sure as squirtin''" versus the phrase "Sure as shootin'"? :D

[Vern Humphrey]

Vern, wouldn't that be "Sure as squirtin''" versus the phrase "Sure as shootin'"?

If I had to go up against a serious bear with a can of pepper spray, I'd be squirtin' for certain.:p

[BADSBSNF81]

A shotgun with slugs. Having said that, while fishing in Alaska a few decades ago we didn't feel to bad about carrying a Ruger Super Blackhawk in 44 mag with the heaviest bullets available at the time.

[James T Thomas]

The 9mm, FMJ are known for their penetration, and that is what you require, however {please add input, THR posters}, I believe the heavy 158 gn solids or there are even some 180 gn 38 solids {"Buffalo Bore"}would be better than the 9mm's in the 147 gn rounds.

Am I correct on this? Penetration wise.

[gazpacho]

A couple of years back I picked up a single shot 12g NEF shotgun for $75 at a pawn shot. With a little work I bet you could find the same, or maybe in a medium rifle caliber. That and your 40 would be PLENTY of bear protection.

Pop him first with the SG then toss the SG to your wife so that she can reload while retreating. The draw your 40 and shoot COM till slide lock. After that, if you're still standing and the bear is still charging, then PM me and I'll see what I can do for you.

[Sunray]

"...stick w/fmj's..." Absolutely not. No expansion, just a hole. JHP's if you really think you need a handgun. Yogi isn't interested in you. You reek of trouble to Yogi. Cindy will strenuously object to your getting anywhere near her cubs though. Walk with the wind, wear a jingle bell, stay away from local dumps and you won't need anything.
Two legged predators are more trouble than Yogi. If the space aliens come for you, nothing will help.

[olyeller]

theyre BLACK bears, not freaking grizzlies; Id be fine with the 9mm, or the .38, but the short barrel is a negative.
The demeanor of a black bear is such that Id feel safe enough with a whistle or a baseball to throw at them.
fyi, the average healthy black bear adult is like 140-180 lbs.

[Newton]

Thanks for the responses - just for info, the hiking location is Apache Sitgreaves National Forest, the location from where Travis Walton (Fire in the Sky) was allegedly abducted by pesky alien critters many years back.

Hopefully the BHP and some 127 grain +P+ Ranger T's will see me home safe, I'll look into the .357 suggestions though, maybe a new Rossi for low $.

[only1asterisk]

Sounds good, except you spelled Ruger wrong, it's R-U-G-E-R, not R-O-S-S-I.
:neener:

Do you know what animal is the greatest threat when hiking/camping/etc.?
Humans. You are much more likely to run into a dangerous person than have a bad encounter with a bear. I think a person that arms himself with a something that they would use as a winter carry gun is doing well. It may be less than ideal for stopping a bear attack, but is better suited for the more likely threat. If you KNOW that you are going to run into bears (fishing in AK comes to mind) you may need to rethink.

You running Ranger +P+ stuff in a BHP? How is that working? Back when I got all the Ranger 127 gain ammo I wanted for $8.25 a box, I gave some to a couple of friends with Hipowers. One brought back a a partial box and the other used it exclusively in his Glock after trying it in his HP. Both were concerned about the extra wear and tear.


David

[Erich]

I use my RA9TA in the BHP with a Wolff 18-lb recoil spring on board, and a slightly increased FP spring as well. Works fine. I believe this is what the illustrious Stephen A. Camp uses for his BHP load, as well.

I still prefer the Gold Dot 147-grainers, though, just because I'm loathe to mess up my nice BHP. I run the RA9TA in my Glocks and my Kahr all the time, though. :)

[Michael Courtney]

I've got a Ruger 44 magnum, but when I carry it, it is mainly for backup.

Guns in the .40 S&W class are fine for black bear, but you might need some fancy footwork between the time you place a shot well and the time the bullet hit takes effect. However, many people have significantly compromised shot placement with the larger guns, as well as significantly slower follow-up shot times. This, and keeping in mind that in most places being attacked by a human or a dog is more likely than a bear attack, and my leaning is toward a gun and load which performs very well on humans.

Michael Courtney

[cookekdjr]

"...stick w/fmj's..." Absolutely not. No expansion, just a hole. JHP's if you really think you need a handgun. Yogi isn't interested in you. You reek of trouble to Yogi. Cindy will strenuously object to your getting anywhere near her cubs though. Walk with the wind, wear a jingle bell, stay away from local dumps and you won't need anything.
Two legged predators are more trouble than Yogi. If the space aliens come for you, nothing will help.

I recommended fmj b/c a member here described a black bear attack during which he attempted to stop the bear with a .357 blackhawk loaded with 158gr soft points. He killed the bear, but the first few shots had no effect at all. He finally killed the bear, and when he skinned it found the first few slugs flattened like pancakes just under the skin. As you know, sjsp bullets, while they do expand, do not expand as much as hp's.
So.....I say use fmj (or hard-cast lead) to insure adequete penetration. In other words, use fmj or hard-cast so that you won't die. :)
-David

[Erich]

I agreed for the same reasons.

Ever do any big animal hunting? You want penetration, not expansion.

(And shot placement! :) Which is why I posted the bear shot-placement .pdf.)

[only1asterisk]

The Ranger load was my carry load for a long time, and if I were to carry a 9mm it would be again. One of the very best.

As far as JHP vs. FMJ or hard lead goes, I don't think either is wrong. It just depends on how you rank the likely threats.

David

[Newton]

I shoot Ranger +P+ and Federal 124gr +P+ sparingly in my Hi Power, so minimum wear is likely, and I have never seen bulged cases etc - that should never happen.

I do have some Hirtenberger L7A1 NATO FMJ on hand, but that stuff, while being very well suited for ultimate 9mm penetration (indeed almost AP like) is too powerful for the HP and I won't shoot it.

I agree with the 2 legged predator comments, and I'm sure that the 127gr Ranger would leave a mark ;)

Thanks again for the comments guys.

[Socrates]

I never really get this. Black bears range in size from:

"The black bear is about 1.5 m (5 feet) long. Females weigh between 40 and 180 kg (90 and 400 pounds), while males weigh between 50 and 400 kg (110 and 880 pounds)".

Most handguns people talk about carrying are designed with humans in mind, 14" penetration in gelatin, and expanding bullets. Black Bears aren't known for reading gun magazines. they aren't going to fall over getting shot with most handguns.
9, 40,45, all with hollowpoints, unless shot placement is percise, are only likely to really piss the bear off. Bears charge, really fast, and, you'll be lucky to get any gun into place, if they stalk you, and are intent on eating you. Your chances of hitting them in a vital spot is likely thin, as well. I suspect that bears have muscle that is both a bit thicker, and harder to get through, then ours, and, bones that make ours look like twigs. The best analogy I can think of is, take 600 pounds, and that's three, good size male adults.
Add one extra for the superior strength of the bear's anatomy. Put them chest to chest, and then tell me if you think 14" of penetration is enough, with those expanding hollowpoints in your 9, or 45.

I also keep thinking how strong you have to be to climb a tree, by digging your claws into it, and pulling your 600 pounds up into the tree...

Thank the bears for the few attacks on humans, something like 57 in the last hundred years. It sure isn't because we are smart enough to stay out of their way..
:neener: S

PS
There are people who actually have had to cull, or walk around black bears, and, folks that make ammunition for people that do this. One ammo maker has a friend that has shot a LOT of black bears. We got into a discussion about his hollowpoint game ammo. .45 LC, 260 grain bullet, at 1450fps. I asked him why he loaded it that hot. He said his friend
had used it, and lower velocity loads, and noticed a considerable difference in black bear reaction, when using the same bullet, and going from 1100-1200 fps , and 1450 fps.
I respected their actual observation of the results, and, I find that a nice black bear load, out of a .45 Seville.

For a pillow gun, while camping, that's what I'd have under my pillow, at least.

[Onmilo]

I knew a guy, (he's dead now), who killed a black bear that was tearing the insulation out of the bottom of his cabin.
His weapon of choice was a Harrington and Richardson Model 686 revolver loaded with CCI Mini Mag solids.
He shot once, caught the bear under the chin and the bullet got into the brain pan, end of bear.
I have always since considered this to be the absolute minimum caliber one should even attempt to use on a bear.

Would I choose this combo?
Heck no!
Things that claw and chew, then eat my remains, demand no less than a .44 Magnum in my book.

[ACP]

I am with those who believe that a .357 Magnum loaded with 200-gr. hard cast bullets (i.e. Cor Bon) is the absolute MINIMUM for any kind of bear, even the "black bear" that so many here are smirking at but which had no problem killing a 6 y.o. girl in Tennessee a few weeks ago after attacking her mother and brother.

If black bears really like to avoid humans, then -- fine, carry a .38 or .22 or 9mm with any load you like. Wear a bell and carry pepper spray. But when you are ATTACKED by a black bear -- and that is your fear -- you must carry a substantial cartridge in a minimum caliber. That, IMHO, is the .357 with hard cast bullets.

[Hogfan1911]

Personally wouldn't feel comfortable with anything less than .41 mag with Federal's 250 gr Castcore load. And preferably a nice, plump, juicy-looking buddy who runs a lot slower than me! :D

[rayra]

To the original poster, toss-up between .40 and the .38 with +P ammo, thinking go with the .40 due to higher capacity.

But also seconding the idea of selling 1 or 2 and getting a stout .357.

[Slaytera666]

S&W 500.

[vynx]

Carry a bear pepper spray and an air horn - that should scare the bear away

What don't you like about the Berretta 9000? I have one and love it.

I'd swap you a Taurus .357 magnum for it.

[chaim]

I don't like the idea of any auto caliber for bear. They are thicker skinned than humans, have much denser muscle, much stronger bones, and are usually a lot bigger. Add to that they haven't been socialized to know that guns kill (no psychological stop), if you are attacked they see you as food or they are defending their young, they have much better endurance, and their adreneline is running high. You need more penetration than any auto caliber will give you.

I would go with a .357mag at minimum, and I prefer .41mag or .44mag for even black bear (while most are in the 200-300lbs range, they can get close to 1000). The advantages of .357 are: 1) lower recoil for quicker follow up shots, 2) possibly more capacity (the Taurus Tracker is made in .41mag, .44mag and .357 and has 5 shots of the larger calibers and 7 of .357, the new S&W 627 and Taurus 608 has 8 shots of .357 while .41mags and .44s in the same size hold 6). The advantages of .41mag and .44mag are more power and larger diameter bullets (so marginally more likely to hit a critical area). Any needs to be loaded with the highest penatrating round possible (hard cast lead).

I also have been reading that bear strength pepper spray is the best thing for bear attacks. Remember, that many people survive gun shots and often people can keep on going without stopping too. Bears don't "know" they are supposed to stop when shot- they know you hurt them and they are now mad. They also have better endurance and thicker skin, muscle, bones and a thick layer of fur to get through. Any handgun is far from ideal for bear. The spray will deprive them of their sense of smell, it will swell their eyes so they have trouble seeing, and they will be disoriented. Even if it doesn't stop them, they will be much easier to escape from. Then, if that doesn't work, use the gun.

So, my vote is to get the can of spray, then if you really think you may need to defend against bears, get a revolver.

[only1asterisk]

Bears are made of sterner stuff than people to be sure, but black bears are not huge. The average male black bear in the US is about 250 pounds. 400-600 pounds is a big black bear to be sure. There are a few 800+ pound monsters, but theses are the extreme. If the average black bear is 250 pounds it takes more than 9 200 pound bears to offset one 800 pound guys.


In Alaska, in 20 years there have only been 267 documented bear maulings with 56 being fatal. 83% were grizzly/brown bears even though blacks outnumber browns more than 3 to 1 by current estimates. Black bears only accounted for 6 fatalities.

With Black bears causing 6 fatalities and 22 injuries over 20 years in Alaska, I think that black bear attacks in rank very low on my threat-o-meter. If you take to most basic precautions to avoid encounters, the risk is very low. If you are going berry picking by yourself on a misty overcast day or camping in an area where bears have more exposure to humans and you regular carry gun is marginal, you may want to upgun a bit. Don’t get carried away and lose sight of the fact that human are by far and away the most likely threat. 111 national park rangers were assaulted in 2004.


David

[arizona]

Any cheap single shot shotgun will work. You simply shoot the wife, throw the gun at the bear and while the bear is eating the wife run very fast to safety.:D

[bpisler]

No thanks i want my wife around,but the
ex girlfriend is a different story.

[cbsbyte]

The minimium would be a .357 Magnum with 158 Grain bullets or a 10mm auto. I would not use a .45ACP or 9mm. Preferably a .44Magnum would best. You could get away with a .41Mag and not be underpowered even for the larger bears. Yes, one can kill a bear with a .22lr but that would be one hell of a lucky shot.

[frayluisfan]

To recommend JHPs on black bear is dangerous, IMHO. Most 40/9mm JHPs are designed for penetrating the torso of an upright human, which is not particularly hard material (not major bones/joints in the way). Blasting through the skull or the shoulder bones of a bruin in order to hit something vital is a completely different ball game, and calls for maximum penetration. If I were you, I would go with the Browning HP in 9mm, and load her up with FMJs. (Of course, since you are thinking about the possibility of human encounters as well, there's no law against filling the mag with fmj/jhp, one after the other. Then you have all your bases covered, and 13+1 rounds to do it with.)

[starplayer]

u should look into glocks new 40mm lol..

[Zen21Tao]

S&W 500
+1.

I say pack a 4" S&W 500 with 700 grain custom loads and a Glock 29 10mm as a backup. :evil:

[Doggieman]

I'm assuming you're not referring to "Black Bear" Hamsters:

http://www.petwebsite.com/black.htm
http://www.msdmv.k12.in.us/mvjhs/staff/Teams/South6/Johnston/adwblackbearhamster.html
http://www.giveusahome.co.uk/allpets/bbearhamster.htm

[duckjihad]

I saw a quote in a outdoor mag once upon a time that said more folks are mauled by black bears than grizzlies each year, so I think it's foolish to hike in their backyard without protection. I think it really depends on how you wish to carry (Concealed or open) and what size the bears are in your AO. Open Carry: Get a 44 mag or bigger. Concealed: Look hard at that mini Glock (mod 33?) in 10 mm if you really want a new gun. If the bears in your AO are on average 150 to 200 pounds, and I bet they are, I can't imagine a good people shooter wouldn't do a damn damn on them. I agree with the guys who say to go for penetration in your ammo choice though.

[22-rimfire]

If you are truly concerned about defending against a bear attack in the woods, I'd buy a new gun. I would think in terms of 357 mag as minimium.

I see the potential of a black bear attack as rather small, I personally would carry whatever you shoot the best and not worry about it. After all, you don't necessarily have to kill the bear; you might just scare it off with a couple rounds in its vicinity. I honestly would be comfortable carrying a 22LR revolver if I shot it the best. But if I'm worried, I would carry a either my 357 or 41 magnum revolver.

[Crosscut]

I love my 357 and 45, but if I where headed into bear counrty I would seriously consider a 454, or 500. Why play around and hope the bear that may attck you is a little bigger than a cub. Better safe than sorry, I'd rather have to much bang than not enough. You can get an Alaska holster that you can strap to your chest, I think the extra weight is worth the piece of mind.

[MCgunner]

I love my 357 and 45, but if I where headed into bear counrty I would seriously consider a 454, or 500. Why play around and hope the bear that may attck you is a little bigger than a cub. Better safe than sorry, I'd rather have to much bang than not enough. You can get an Alaska holster that you can strap to your chest, I think the extra weight is worth the piece of mind.

For BLACK BEAR? No thanks, ain't totin' no sawed off carbine. I'd rather just tote a carbine, .30-30. The thuddy thuddy has killed more black bear than are alive today. It's an excellent bear gun. Some would prefer the .35 Remington and I can't argue with that at the short ranges they're usually hunted.

I'd carry my .45 colt Blackhawk with hot handloads, but truth be told, a heavy loaded .357 is just fine for a puny blacky. They don't often get over 300 lbs. 600 would be record book. We ain't talkin ton plus Alaskan browns here, quarter ton at the max. I think anything less than 10mm/.357 mag would be a little light, but no sense going overboard. A S&W mountain gun in .44 mag or a 4 5/8" blackhawk in .45 colt won't weigh you down much in your daily activities and you'll more likely be wearing it when you need it than a rifle or a handgun the size of a rifle. Those Ruger alaskans look not much heavier than a Blackhawk, but you gotta remember you're going to have to shoot this thing and actually hit the bear with it. :rolleyes:

[Crosscut]

McGunner, the first point is it's a perfect excuse to buy another gun, one the the wife would have to agree with since it's for her protection, the second part of it is you need to spend the additional time and money at the range getting the hang of shooting the new gun so that you are able to hit something with it if need be. They are wrist breakers but you will have more than enough power to take care of any situation.

[HKGuns]

I've hunted Black Bear and I wouldn't take any of your handguns as primary defense. Minimum for me would be a shotgun with slugs. As a few others, who I suspect are also experienced, have said....Black bears ain't no humans.

[MCgunner]

I was watching a show on Outdoor Channel the other night. This guy shot a big boar at 50 yards with a bow, poor hit. They track this thing the next day through heavy cover and the guide is carrying what looked like a 1911 with compensated barrel. At most, I'm figurin' .45 Grizzly Win Mag or whatever that thing is. It's basically a light .44 mag in ballistics IIRC.

They found the bear dead. They say "Looks like he hasn't been dead long.", but when they move him, rigor mortise has definitely set in. ROFL! Anyway, this guide coulda been carrying a 600 nitro express if he'd wanted to, but seemed quite happy with that 1911 thing, whatever it was. I wouldn't rely on a handgun for browny defense and I wouldn't hunt bear with a stick and a string, but that's just me.:D

I've heard all sorts of horror stories about how tough hogs are, how you need a .458 to penetrate one, but it's all hogwash (pardon the pun). Killin' a hog is all in the bullet selection and shot placement and I find that pretty true of about any tough game with a bigger than life reputation around camp fires. Heard all my life about people being "attacked by javelina". ROFL! Whatever. You can drop kick the things, ain't exactly big. Yeah, I reckon they can run a guy up a tree, but you won't sit there and starve to death before they leave. :rolleyes: The hunting world is full of legends.

If you feel better with a shotgun, though, go for it.

[Doggieman]

bazooka

[Matt King]

As has been mentioned, a .357 would be a minimum. I would prefer a .44

happy hiking :)

[Cosmoline]

.357 loaded with 180 or 200 grain hardcast slugs at a MINIMUM.

9x19, .40 S&W and the like were never intended to be used against medium or large game, let alone a charging bear! The rounds lack the sectional density and size needed to penetrate.

Just pack a .30-30.

[Hogfan1911]

"track this thing the next day through heavy cover and the guide is carrying what looked like a 1911 with compensated barrel."

Could've been a 10mm. With good handloads it excells the .357 mag, even approaches the .41 mag, as I recall. Or what about a .50 GI? Was it a recent video, or could you tell?

[Cayoot]

I keep thinking that I would like to buy the new S&W 357 PD (Scandium .41 Mag-4 inch bbl) for just this situation (plus it's a cool looking gun!), but I have to wonder about the loss of velocity in the short 4 inch bbl.

I cant decide which would be more effective...a .41 mag (about 240 grns at I'm guessing about 1100-1200 fps) out of a 4 inch bbl or my .45 Colt Mnt Gun pushing heavy (270-300 grn) SWCs moving about 900 fps.

Anybody have any experience in this area?