Goodbye, California - even the Brits agree...


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Preacherman
April 23, 2003, 12:33 AM
Never mind the appalling gun laws - this opinion column from the London Times says it all (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,482-655876,00.html):

April 23, 2003

Bye-bye good vibrations - California has become semi-detached from the US

Giles Whittell

Something rather startling happened in Los Angeles during the build-up to the war in Iraq. American military planners, concerned about the possibility of a long conflict and thousands of battlefield casualties, sent squads of navy surgeons to the city’s biggest public hospital for training.

On his first night there, one medic treated ten black youths for both lethal and non-lethal gunshot wounds to the head and chest. “I tell you,” he told a radio reporter. “That was something.”

He should not have been surprised. LA has yet to feel the healing wrath of a Rudy Giuliani. The gang wars of South-Central go on killing people and the vast, forbidding USC Medical Centre goes on receiving their bodies. Here was urban California’s contribution to the war effort: the Angelenos version of grit and tragic self-sacrifice.

Rural California is different. It plays host to two large bases that decamped en masse to the Gulf, starting last autumn. But otherwise this has not been a West Coast war. It started, ultimately, with terrorist attacks that took place while the entire region was asleep, and it has never quite woken up.

The dethroning of Saddam Hussein was conceived in Texas and Washington, prepared by generals in Florida and prosecuted by grunts drawn largely from the Eastern seaboard. The only senior White House hawk with ties to California is Stanford’s Condoleezza Rice, and she moved east in 1999.

She left behind America’s most determined pockets of dissent. Even after the ground war had begun, Angelenos and San Franciscans took to their streets in tens of thousands to dissociate themselves and demand it be reversed. Understandably, President Bush gave them barely a glance. He won’t win California next year, and he doesn’t have to. As he knows better than anyone, Florida is the must-win Sunshine State.

Bill Clinton visited California more than 50 times during his presidency to raise money, meet actors and have his hair done. Mr Bush is not so star-struck. He seldom calls, let alone visits. He openly disdains the Golden State’s pallid Democratic Governor, Gray Davis, and why ever not? So does the Democratic Party.

Until 9/11 wrenched America’s attention away from the amazing possibilities of software and stock options, Davis was widely touted as a runner for the White House. Now California’s state budget deficit is America’s biggest, and Davis is on no one’s list.

The state that was the powerhouse of the epic 1990s high-tech boom is now closing world-class hospitals to balance its books, with the USC Medical Centre hanging on only by its bloody fingernails. Hollywood is suffering a crisis of confidence so severe that its chief money-making prospects for this summer are two sequels, both to the same film (Matrix; the onslaught starts next month). Its stars use their moments of Oscar glory to call for peace over victory, unable to believe polls that insist most Americans want victory, even at a price, and then more victory.

How will the studios address the War on Terror? They don’t know. They’re flummoxed. There’s still nothing in the pipeline on 9/11 or its aftermath. Instead there’s a cheap English sleeper hit about girls, soccer and someone called Beckham, and cinema owners are heartily thankful for it.

Seldom has California been so out of step with the hinterland it once enthralled. These days it can’t even excel at surfing. The results of the annual Billabong XXL Global Big Wave Award were announced last week, and the winner was Hawaiian. The runners-up, thanks to a freak storm in the Bay of Biscay, were all French.

Whenever there’s a good swell and an offshore breeze, old-timers still paddle out from the beaches of Malibu and Orange County to pit themselves against the Pacific. But they also moan about the young doing something much flashier than surfing and, so the complaint goes, much easier. It doesn’t look it. What these upstarts do is fly. They attach their feet to a board thin enough to be a water ski and their arms to nylon lines leading to enormous aerobatic kites. They hurtle out into the breakers and leap off them for what seems like minutes at a time, somersaulting under their fluorescent parafoils like exotic seabirds in search of breeding partners.

While Iraq burnt, most Californians were still at play. They couldn’t help it. Their habits of frivolity run deep, strengthened by the conviction that they are living the rest of the country’s future.

They probably still are, but I can’t help remembering an odd lunch in Kiev a couple of years ago with a British diplomat and two good bottles of imported wine. After only one of them he looked me in the eye and warned me with total seriousness that, sooner not later, the US would fall apart. He was bonkers, wasn’t he?

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SIGarmed
April 23, 2003, 12:37 AM
Yes the London Times knows exactly whats going on in California.
Yeah sure. :rolleyes:

Jim March
April 23, 2003, 12:49 AM
Two words:

"Regime change".

Yes, it really is that bad. Hell, he doesn't know the half of it :fire:.

UnknownSailor
April 23, 2003, 02:19 AM
Yes, it is that bad. Bad enough that I won't even consider taking orders there again, for the forseable future. I'll go to Hawaii before I go to California again, and I lived there for 14 years.

Airwolf
April 23, 2003, 02:42 AM
After our people finish in Iraq I'd be more than happy to meet them on the border, provide cover fire and a road map to Sacramento.

Cal4D4
April 23, 2003, 02:52 AM
"While Iraq burnt, most Californians were still at play. They couldn’t help it. Their habits of frivolity run deep, strengthened by the conviction that they are living the rest of the country’s future. "

Right. Check the freeways at rush hour. Somebody is working a few hours now and then to meet the mortgage on those pricey little Kali homes. A few did it by designing and implementing stealth technology into bombers and fighters, TOW missile systems and 25mm chainguns onto Bradleys and such, FLIR, satellite systems and just generally creating the wonderful things that make it possible for the other side to die for their country while we enjoy a relatively low casualty rate. Kali companies have been the prime contractors of most of the twenty plus year old high technology you all get to be shocked and awed by.

We do have our social and political problems, but save the silly stereotypes.

Mute
April 23, 2003, 01:48 PM
California ain't no picnic, but this dude should try telling the Marines from Camp Pendleton that they played no part in dethroning Saddam Hussein. :rolleyes:

El Tejon
April 23, 2003, 02:22 PM
"Mr. Hand, I don't need to know about the Middle East. All I need is some tasty waves [surfer laugh]."

Hey, what about the STs and devildogs from Kallyfornia? Didn't they do something in Iraq???:confused:

Russ
April 23, 2003, 02:40 PM
So Preacherman,

It really ticks me off that so many here are afraid to put which State they live in. While I agree many things could change in California regarding the 2nd Amendment, you don't want to kiss the State goodbye for a number of reasons. As Jim said, Regime change is in order there and I think it may happen sooner than most believe. However, if you are not from California then why are you posting this if you haven't lived it?

What is USA as a location? Why not say the "WORLD" OR "THE UNIVERSE" or "OUTER SPACE". If you are bashing a place you have lived in for awhile then tell us about it when you were there. We don't need your address but a State would do.

As CAl4D4, look at the CA freeways during rush hour. I know what that's like more than most. I wasn't playing.

Russ

BamBam-31
April 23, 2003, 02:58 PM
What Mute said. Guys from Pendleton were trained in the desert, and it showed.

This article is slanted and ignorant. This thread should be closed.

Gordon Fink
April 23, 2003, 03:36 PM
So far, more than a few Californians have given their lives in this little war. Hopefully, they can rest easy knowing that a few California-based companies will probably get a piece of the lucrative post-war corporate-welfare packages.

~G. Fink

George Hill
April 23, 2003, 03:44 PM
"Hollywood is suffering a crisis of confidence so severe that its chief money-making prospects for this summer are two sequels, both to the same film"


That is funny.

Russ
April 23, 2003, 03:44 PM
BamBam-31,

Alot of Pendleton is Prime California Coastline. It's a big base but by no means all desert. Probably most of the tankers trained in the desert areas of the base but I bet on it's worst day it is not as hot as it was in Iraq.

Gordon,

Are you talking about defense contracts when you say Corporate Welfare Packages? Give us some examples. You do know that alot of the defense contractors are not California based anymore don't you?

Gordon Fink
April 23, 2003, 03:59 PM
Russ, defense contracts notwithstanding, I was thinking of stuff like this.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/02/24/timep.rebuilding.tm/index.html

“Winners in the first round of the postwar sweepstakes are likely to include many of the same companies that competed to rebuild Afghanistan: Fluor Daniel, Kellogg Brown & Root, Perini, Parsons, the Louis Berger Group and Bechtel.”

Of course, I also have it on good authority that Northrop Grumman is doing quite well right now. ;)

~G. Fink

Dannyboy
April 23, 2003, 04:20 PM
Oh, I see how it is. Nobody but Kali subjects are allowed to denigrate the "great" state of Kalifornia. So, I should be correct in assuming that those of you with your panties in a wad will never utter a bad word about the UK. Jeez, get over yourselves.

Russ
April 23, 2003, 04:24 PM
Gordon,

Virtually none of the companies you mentioned are California based. Haliburtan and it's division Kellog, Brown and Root orginated in Oklahoma and Texas respectively. Perini comes out of Massachussetts. Louis Berger originated in PA. Nortrup Grumman is the only company on your list that has California roots and I'm not sure they are still there. Your first post listed all the California Companies that would benefit. These companies you list are mostly US based but are huge multi-national corporations with locations all over the world.

The reason the contracts went or will go to them initially is because they are set up to deal with the problems now, not tomorrow, not 5 years from now but now. If we are going to rebuild Iraq, we need to get on the stick and get it over with so we can get out.

I know people who work for all of the companies you mention. They are not evil. The people that work there are just like you and me. Opposition to the War is a moot point now. It's over and time to rebuild or leave it alone. I can't think of better companies to do the rebuilding. Maybe we should get some companies from our freinds like the Russians and the French?

Mute
April 23, 2003, 05:29 PM
There is nothing even remotely similar to a dessert by Pendelton, but those Marines probably train up in the high dessert areas of CA. CA has more than its fair share of dessert land, some even more extreme than Iraqi terrain.

Russ
April 23, 2003, 06:18 PM
Mute,

The Mojave Desert is as extreme as it gets. Let's see, you have Death Valley. All they have to do is let the Marines come out to Edwards AFB and it makes Iraq look like home sweet home!

It gets pretty hot in Kern County. Bakersfield, McFarland etc. I lived in Bakersfield for 12 years and there were stretches of 110 degree weather every Summer. A friend of mine from there got transferred to Saudi Arabia with Aramco, the oil co, and he said it reminded him of home!

twoblink
April 24, 2003, 07:49 AM
While I don't qualify (I don't think) age-wise, to run for Gov'nor, I would move back to the PRK tomorrow if I thought I could win a position like governor... If I did, ha!! Regime change would be a drastic understatement!

The problem is that mass marketing to the morons is the strategy of most of the democrats in the PRK. And so, you get failure at all levels, you get blame, and you get "new promise" of a better tomorrow, and the same stupid people fall for it, hook, line, and sinker..

It disgusts me..

What we need is the PRK is more free government programs, higher taxes, and worse gunlaws. The we will be just like England.. :barf:

Jim March for Gov'nor!! Hey, Jim, need a running mate?? ;) I'd make everybody in the state tactical...:D

swifter
April 24, 2003, 12:39 PM
Did everyone forget the Marine base at 29 Palms???:cuss:
That is DESERT!! I know they train there, with arty, at any rate...

Tom

UnknownSailor
April 24, 2003, 01:09 PM
Don't forget China Lake and Yuma.

Shalako
April 24, 2003, 03:01 PM
Heavens to mercatroid. How could you guys forget this place (http://www.irwin.army.mil/) ?

Barstow, California. Or is that officially in Dagget? My mom lives out thattaway and the shooting is fantastic, if'n you don't require a RO that is.... (Jackrabbits and 1911's anyone?)

But, really, they have top notch desert facilities at their fingertips.

gudel
April 24, 2003, 04:21 PM
and it's coming from the european that says US is falling apart. well, to me europe is old, worn and have no important voice (except maybe england). the next wave is Asia. they're building up and catching up. ignore the european, ally with Asia.
as far as left wing nut, there are plenty of them here, but also there are plenty of right wing extremist here. no doubt about that.
i don't think the US is falling apart sooner or later, or in your lifetime if that matters. hell, California alone is quite large in terms of economic powers matching with combined output of some other countries in europe.
are you saying that cali will be its own country? that's not going to happen.

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