[bcuzimisu]

im new to the game here. whats the differece between the two? please assume i know next to nothing about anything (and use small words.) is smaller better? I know a colt .45 is something ive wanted since i was 3 yrs old but dont know why. A .38 is special but is is more special than a .357?
:confused:

[Slaytera666]

.38s are special because they like to party on Saturday night.

[fast97rs]

ok... i'll make this simple....


.38spl is the same exact cartradge as a .375 Magnum..... the only differnce is that the .357Mag has more poweder in the casing and thus has a higher muzzle velocity, and power.... not to mention that you can also get heavier bullets for .357Mag vs. .38spl


The lineup goes like this.... (P stands for powder... so obviously.... more powder, thus +P)... least to most powerful....


.38spl

.38spl + P

.357 Mag

.357 + P


Hope this helps.....

Jorgy

P.S.
You should look at the "Centerfire Rifle Basics" Coarse on here... its more like a referance guide.... will teach you some really neat stuff, that you should know... and only takes about 5min....

http://www.remington.com/safety/online_courses/

[Cosmoline]

I don't think there really is such a thing as .357+P It's more proper to call it "heavy .357." The earliest .357 revolvers actually ran on HOTTER ammo than what's produced today.

[silicon wolverine]

You can get +p for .357s but its police contract overrun and its getting rare these days. I ran into a box at a gunshow a month ago. Federal 165 Gr JHP's wanted like 35$ a box

SW

[ChristopherG]

.38spl is the same exact cartradge as a .375 Magnum..... the only differnce is that the .357Mag has more poweder in the casing and thus has a higher muzzle velocity, and power.... not to mention that you can also get heavier bullets for .357Mag vs. .38spl

Almost.
.38 special was one stage in the evolution of cartridges with a range of bullet diameters from real .38" down to those in the area of .36", like .357. 'Special' marked it off from the one immediately before it (the .38 S&W); it was more powerful.

The .357 magnum is another link in the same chain. It is much more powerful than the .38 special--that is, it's used in guns that are able to withstand much higher pressures--so it was deliberately modified to be unable to fit into .38 special guns by lengthening the case about a tenth of an inch (the shorter .38 will fit and function just fine in a .357).

The standard, traditional bullet weight for both is 158 grains. A normal .38 with a 158 grain bullet will achieve about 750-800 fps. A normal .357 with the same weight will be more like 1250-1300 fps. Both have been loaded with much lighter and much heavier bullets (up to 200 grains in some old police loads for the .38 special).

There is no such thing as .357 +p, because the organization that defines what +p means says there isn't. +P typically means a load that exceeds normal pressure caps by up to 10%, but SAAMI does not recognize such loadings for .357. Someone may market something as +p, but without SAAMI recognition and regulation, that tells you precisely nothing about the ammunition being sold.

[fast97rs]

Almost.
.38 special was one stage in the evolution of cartridges with a range of bullet diameters from real .38" down to those in the area of .36", like .357. 'Special' marked it off from the one immediately before it (the .38 S&W); it was more powerful.

The .357 magnum is another link in the same chain. It is much more powerful than the .38 special--that is, it's used in guns that are able to withstand much higher pressures--so it was deliberately modified to be unable to fit into .38 special guns by lengthening the case about a tenth of an inch (the shorter .38 will fit and function just fine in a .357).

The standard, traditional bullet weight for both is 158 grains. A normal .38 with a 158 grain bullet will achieve about 750-800 fps. A normal .357 with the same weight will be more like 1250-1300 fps. Both have been loaded with much lighter and much heavier bullets (up to 200 grains in some old police loads for the .38 special).

There is no such thing as .357 +p, because the organization that defines what +p means says there isn't. +P typically means a load that exceeds normal pressure caps by up to 10%, but SAAMI does not recognize such loadings for .357. Someone may market something as +p, but without SAAMI recognition and regulation, that tells you precisely nothing about the ammunition being sold.


Well... like I said... i was trying to keep it simple. If I would have gone into how the .357 casing is 1/10th longer the guy would never have understood that they are in the same family.

Also.... I have been reloading for a bit, not very long just a few months... just want you to understand that there are standard loads and .357+P is actually in my reloading manual.... its a heavier, faster burning load, which are used in standard LEO reloading manuals for the S&W M13.... so thats what I load my defense/hog rounds with..... in a 4" barrel I have been able to achieve 1384fps and from Win M94 in .357mag some very very tight groupings.... about 5 shots into hole the size of a $.50 piece....


Just my humble opinion....



Jorgy

[ChristopherG]

I know this is tangential to the poor guy's question, but I'm interested; your manual actually says ".357 +p"? What manual is it?

[bcuzimisu]

thanks for your help guys. I'm buying a .357 today, i just wanted to make sure a .38 special wasn't better first. The .38 special is cheaper anywhere i look so i figured it was lesser quality. If you guys have any advice on reloading, (for a poor guy with no prior knowledge of the procedures) it would also be greatly appreciated. Thanks

[Cosmoline]

Kiddos, I have the loadbook for .357 and several handloading manuals. I've been handloading and shooting the round for many years. I've owned at least a dozen revolvers chambered for the round. But I've NEVER seen any such animal as the ".357+P" I certainly haven't heard of it being used in a K-Frame Smith.

You can get +p for .357s but its police contract overrun and its getting rare these days. I ran into a box at a gunshow a month ago. Federal 165 Gr JHP's wanted like 35$ a box

You are probably thinking about the .38 Special +P+ which was issued to LEO's to get around rules preventing them from actually shooting .357 Magnums. They are often marked "Law Enforcement Only" on the box. I have some. It was indeed often shot out of heavy barrel K-Frame magnums, but the fact remains that it was hot .38 special NOT .357 magnum.

The .357 has never been given a "+p" designation either officially by SAAMI or unofficially by Buf. Bore or Corbon. There are heavy .357 loads, hot .357 loads and loads designed for firing out of leverguns. But there ain't no "+P"

[HankB]

I've seen older pressure-tested data for .357 which ran to around 42,000 CUP. These original .357 loadings (one might say "traditional" loadings) were developed for full-size revolvers. Once companies like S&W brought out J-frame .357s, SAAMI reduced the allowable pressure to 35,000 PSI.

CUP and PSI are NOT the same, and AFAIK there is no generally accepted formula for conversion between the two. Generally PSI numbers run higher than CUP numbers for the same load, which suggests that SAAMI made some drastic downward adjustments in .357 pressure limits when they went to PSI measurements.

I've seen suggestions that current manufacturers have the option of loading their ammo to either the current 35,000 PSI level, or the old 42,000 (or so) CUP level, but since I'm not part of either SAAMI or a ballistician for a major ammo company, this is (partially) informed speculation on my part.

[ball3006]

case except it is 1/10th of an inch longer. More powder, more bang with the same size bullet. You can shoot either cartridge in a 357 mag revolver or carbine. Rossi makes a nifty carbine based on the 1892 Winchester in 357 that shoots either cartridge. You then have a revolver and a rifle of the same caliber.........equals fun......chris3

[Brian Williams]

OK, we do not want to confuse a Noob, BUT do not lie to him, the 357 is not and never has been just like a 38. It is a much more powerful round and should NEVER be used in a 38 spec. We must use clear and concise descriptions and avoid confusion.

The 38 spec was designed around 1899 and developed for guns with lesser heatreating than possible today. It is a great round and was being handloaded in heavy revolvers to some impressive velocities and then was developed into the 38/44 for used in 44 spec sized guns. In 1935 the 357 magnum was developed by stretching the 38 spec case about 1/10 of an inch to prevent it from being used in older revolvers, it has been stretched into the 460 Wesson and the 357 maximum.

[Brian Williams]

thanks for your help guys. I'm buying a .357 today, i just wanted to make sure a .38 special wasn't better first. The .38 special is cheaper anywhere i look so i figured it was lesser quality. If you guys have any advice on reloading, (for a poor guy with no prior knowledge of the procedures) it would also be greatly appreciated. Tha

Get the 357 and have fun with some 38 specials in it, they will fit in a 357 but not 357s in a 38.

For reloading get a couple of books and read everything in them and online that you can find

[depicts]

and here i always thought the 38+ stood for plus POWER, not powder, or pressure.

Who says you can't teach an old dog to drink water! :rolleyes:

[ball3006]

A 357 mag cartridge WILL NOT fit in a 38 special gun........besides not fitting in the chamber, the bullet will most likely stick out of the front of the cylinder........chris3

[Vern Humphrey]

The granddaddy of all was the .38 Colt, later renamed the .38 Short Colt when the .38 Long Colt came out. Smith and Wesson, for unknown reasons, picked the .38 Long Colt and "stretched" it, producing a more powerful cartridge called the ".38 Smith and Wesson Special." (Colt retaliated by chambering revolvers for the same cartridge and calling it the ".38 Colt Special.")

The .38 Special became the favorite of police officers and by the 1930s was pretty much standard. The 1930s were the era of the " motor bandit" -- John Dillinger, Pretty Boy Floyd and so on. Police complained the .38 special lacked power to penetrate automobile bodies.

Smith and Wesson then decided to chamber their Hand Ejector revolver (which was designed for the .44 Special) in .38 Special. They called this the "38/44" meaning a .38 Special on a .44 frame. Winchester teamed with S&W to develop ammunition for the 38/44 -- special high-pressure loads marked "For Smith and Wesson 38/44 revolvers only."

Finally someone woke up and smelled the coffee -- it didn't matter what was on the box, sooner or later someone was going to put a .38/44 cartridge into a smaller, weaker revolver and create a handgrenade. So Winchester stretched the case, to prevent it from being loaded into shorter .38 Special cylinders. Douglas Wesson, then president of S&W called it the ".357 Magnum," and the rest is history.

The .357 Magnum is a powerful revolver, fully up to any needs for self defense. If you have a .357, you can safely shoot .38 Specials in the same revolver (as well as .38 Short Colts and .38 Long Colts.)

[stevekl]

I'm not sure if this is question is proper for this thread; I don't want to derail anything.

But i've been wondering for a while, do they make .38 Special loads that mimic 9mm defense loads?

I know "9mm defense load" might include a broad range of bullet weights, but I ask because I am wondering if there's something I can put into my .357 revolver that will mimic the performance of my 9mm semi-auto (in other words, more powerful than a standard .38 special, but not as powerful as a .357 magnum).

If this is a dumb question, let me know why :)

[Vern Humphrey]

do they make .38 Special loads that mimic 9mm defense loads?

The .38 Special is a different breed of cat compared to the 9mm. Maximum breech pressure for the .38 Special is about 21,000 psi (that's +P loads), and for the 9mm it's about 36,000 psi.

On the other hand, the .38 Special with its larger case can burn more powder at lower pressures. This means the .38 Special does well with fairly heavy bullets (the traditional bullet weight is 158 grains), while 9mm is better with bullets in the 125 grain range.

With these bullet weights, the +P .38 Special can generate about 1.050 fps. and the 9mm will generate about 110 fps more. This translates into more kinetic energy for the 9mm, but the .38 Special will probably penetrate deeper.

I would rate the .38 Special with well-designed bullets as on a par with the 9mm, despite their differences.

[Cosmoline]

The .38+P LSWCHP is unlike anything that a 9x19 semi could feed and just about one of the best defensive handgun rounds ever made. I'd rate it equal to or better than HP 9x19 rounds. The difference in ft. lbs. between the two isn't enough to make any real world difference.

[Croyance]

You want the .45 ACP or .45 LC because the .45 is the quintessential American caliber.
As for if smaller is better, it depends on use and user.