Paypal Alternative.


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Andrew S
April 25, 2006, 01:24 PM
I have only recently been made aware with Paypal's antigun policy so I am stuck without a method for paying for online goods. Is there a popular enough alternative?

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Third_Rail
April 25, 2006, 01:26 PM
Postal money orders. ;)

'Card
April 25, 2006, 01:36 PM
Welcome back to the 1900's.

No, unfortunately, there isn't a good widely-accepted electronic currency alternative to Paypal. Yet.

I think in the next few years, we'll see some interesting things happening in this area. There's been a lot of talk (and some preliminary efforts) at building an offshore data haven, which would almost certainly include its own bank, and therefore its own electronic-only currency. Makes a lot of sense when you consider the way the economy gets a little more global every day.

Sounds a little bit far-fetched, I know - but trust me, there are tons of libertarians in the high-tech industry who would love to make this happen sooner rather than later.

AJ Dual
April 25, 2006, 01:45 PM
+1000

Sounds like we've got a Neal Stephenson fan in our midst? :D

But yes, an offshore, accepted, and recognized electronic currency based on strong encryption that's also anonymous, and untraceable, would be an insanely powerful tool.

It could literaly undermine the nation-state as we know it. Money that can't be traced can't be taxed. Nor could it be siezed or blocked.

The governments of the world would literaly have to either destroy the bank through military action, or shut down the Internet. Strong encryption, if set up correctly, would make "counterfitting" nearly impossible. So the offshore e-bank could easily delegate transactions to blind and anonymous proxies, or even peer-to-peer systems which would make filtering or blocking nearly impossible. If you look at the kind of things people are doing to swap music "safely", or get around the censorship in China, you start to get the faintest hint of the possibilites.

That would make things a bit interesting for sure, and not just on GunBroker.

'Card
April 25, 2006, 01:55 PM
Oh, absolutely. Stephenson's Cryptonomicon is what got me interested in the whole subject of data havens and electronic money in the first place. I've been following the subject pretty closely ever since, and there have been some (quiet) developments in the last year or two that make me think we're probably 5 years away from a true 'international' currency. For the NWO (New World Order) conspiracy freaks on here, let me just say that we're not talking about a UN-adopted currency. We're talking about an extra-national currency, beyond the control of any one government, or any group of goverments, for that matter.

A lot like the internet. :)

Makes a lot of sense though, when you think about it. Yesterday I bought some stuff from a guy in India. The money had been direct deposited into my account by my employer, I moved it from there to another account with another bank, used that account to buy a Western Union money order online, e-mailed him to let him know it was on the way. He picked it up and deposited into his bank. So that money has gone from dollars to rupees, halfway around the world, and has never seen paper.

V4Vendetta
April 25, 2006, 01:59 PM
I read on www.gunbroker.com when I signed up there, I read about methods of payment. Turns out, paying with a credit card gives you certain legal protections that paying with a check or Paypal doesn't. I personally prefer to only buy in person but if I'm going to continue shooting my gun, I'm going to have to get a pre-paid Visa card so I can buy ammo online.

Manedwolf
April 25, 2006, 03:32 PM
We're talking about an extra-national currency, beyond the control of any one government, or any group of goverments, for that matter.


The only thing is, if you have a bank beyond anyone's regulation or control like that...

...what happens if you get a bad apple in there? A Ken Lay?

Just imagine the destruction the collapse of that could cause, as someone bailed out with their extorted golden parachute and vanished...

mp510
April 25, 2006, 03:38 PM
Paypal's not bad, we just need to take control of 51% of its stock:neener: Bidpay was neat while it existed, but I never got to recieve any payments by it.

How hard is it for an individual to be able to accept cc's directly? I noticed many of the processors are not very friendly to our types.

CypherNinja
April 25, 2006, 03:47 PM
I noticed many of the processors are not very friendly to our types.

If visa ever calls you and asks what the 2000 dollar charge to someone halfway across the country is, just say "spinners". ;)

:evil: :evil: :evil:

American_Pit_Bull
April 25, 2006, 04:03 PM
Is there a popular enough alternative?
PayPal is by far the most popular.

I am currently looking into this site's services: gearpay.com (https://www.gearpay.com/index.php?x=home&)

AJ Dual
April 25, 2006, 05:45 PM
The only thing is, if you have a bank beyond anyone's regulation or control like that...

...what happens if you get a bad apple in there? A Ken Lay?

Just imagine the destruction the collapse of that could cause, as someone bailed out with their extorted golden parachute and vanished…

I would argue that the Ken Lay's, and things like the Savings & Loan scandal of the 80's happened under the government's watch. It's also arguable that government regulation and oversight is what creates the loopholes that allows some of these things to happen. I think the free market can do no worse, and with no FDIC "safety net" to make people sloppy, and the e-bank offering the highest security and privacy getting all the customers in a pure market solution, it's possible you might get a bank that's fraud-proof.

There's ways to set such a bank up that makes raiding it unlikely. Such a baink might even be "open source" after a fashion, where all the users can monitor the bank's activity in such a way that the banks operations are transparent to all it's users, but privacy is maintained. You'd have millions of hackers, governments, drug dealers, math/economic/game-theroy professors, the mob, and cranky libertarians all looking over their shoulder.

I'd rather try and decieve the IRS or the FDIC, then the massed forces of the entire Internet any day of the week. :D Just look how they all jump down Microsoft's throat when they find a security bug, and that's just for their own personal gratification… If it was their money on the line? Holy… better watch out...

And as I alluded to in my earlier post, such an "e-bank" that uses mathematical mony based on un-forgable encryption, it would be impossible for your money to be "taken" unless you give the encryption key, even by the "banker" himself. And if there is a crack in the encryption, someone with enough computing power to steal your funds (we're talking more computing power on earth, perhaps the universe, with tough enough encryption.) Would be so rich (and nearly God-like over so many other aspects of our lives), why bother ripping you off?

If it's set up right, the worst a corrupt banker could do is destroy the bank, but he would lose all his money like everyone else. And if it's a distributed system with no central point of control, just like the Internet, or the peer-to-peer music sharing networks, there's no way to dominate the bank without destroying the entire net. It could even be set up like those distributed computing projects like the cancer thing, or SETI@home where instead. millions of members around the world keep a tiny chunks of "the bank" on their home PC's with massive redundancy around the globe.

The "money" would be kind of like PGP, where there's a public key, and a private key. The public keyblock is out there for everyone to see, but it's still encrypted, and can be used by anyone to send you a private message that only you can unlock. Your money would be the same way. You pay someone, or they pay you, and it's encrypted with the public key, and the private key unlocks the money to accept it. All the bank knows is that some person or business with a key encrypted X amount of money, and sent it to someone who could unlock it. They have no idea who they are, where they are, or what it was for, nor do they care, in fact, they actively don't want to know...

Such a system, if it it was widely accepted (and this is the A-1 BIG "IF" just like any money or banking system that's come before it), may well be unstoppable, to the point governemtnts will have to capitulate as their reserve banks become iirelevant, and their ability to tax dissapears. If enough people and businesses adopt such a system faster than governments can crack down on it, it would reach an unstoppable critical mass. You then may see a period in human history where no one is forced to pay for something they don't want ever again.
Such a monetary system would be more revolutionary than the Internet itself.

NukemJim
April 25, 2006, 07:46 PM
Turns out, paying with a credit card gives you certain legal protections that paying with a check or Paypal doesn't. I personally prefer to only buy in person but if I'm going to continue shooting my gun, I'm going to have to get a pre-paid Visa card

IANAL so as always I could be wrong but my understanding is that a "prepaid" Visa card is a type of debit card which does NOT carry the extra legal protection that a real credit card does.

Please do not ask details I do not remember them. I was told this by a bank when I was getting debit card.

Are there any bankers and or lawyers who do know for sure ?

NukemJim

R.W.Dale
April 25, 2006, 10:12 PM
Paypal's antigun policy

Dang them how dare they set their own rules for how they want to run a business:mad: Bunch of stinking decadent capitalist dogs, Viva Revoltion!

'Card
April 25, 2006, 10:16 PM
Dang them how dare they set their own rules for how they want to run a business.
They are completely, 100% free to run their business as they see fit. No one has suggested that they be forced or compelled to do otherwise.

I, as a consumer, am also completely, 100% free to take my business elsewhere if I disagree with those policies.

armoredman
April 25, 2006, 11:22 PM
Absolutely, so use Gearpay, set up for firearm people.

afasano
April 26, 2006, 06:56 PM
Do groups like gunbroker and auctionarms take Gearpay?

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