[frayluisfan]

This may be a dumb question, but is there really any reason to pay $2-3,000 for a self-defense pistol? I will probably never have the money anyway, but I have to wonder if you're really getting more bang for your buck (stupid pun intended). For those of you who have purchased a high end custom pistol, do you think it was worth the money, in terms of reliability? Is there really that much difference in reliability between a Wilson/STI/etc. and a Glock/Beretta/Sig?

Just wondering...
Mike

[Standing Wolf]

I have a few high ticket guns. I tend to be partial to .22 long rifle match pistols and Pythons, as well as pretty versions thereof. They're not more reliable.

I've poured some moderately serious dollars into several of my carry guns to make them function better and look better both. Are they actually better self-defense guns? Probably a little.

I believe the law of diminishing returns covers money spent on firearms and custom work done to them.

[browningguy]

Well I don't want to cause trouble but WIlson/STI/etc are not really custom guns, just high end production guns. But having said that, they are worth the money if you like them. The ones I have shot seem to be generally a little more accurate but probably no more reliable than the others you mentioned though.

As already mentioned we all have some point of diminishing return. These pistols are very well made and finished, and even a casual observer can see this when they look at them side by side. But unless you are willing to spend large sums for smaller and smaller improvements in finish there seems to be a reasonble limit to what most of us would spend. For me the limit is in the $800range for a carry gun, up to maybe $2000 for a competition gun, more (when I can swing it) for a nicely factory engraved gun.

[CWL]

Yep, it's worth it. But it depends more on where you spend your money, not just how much money is spent.

Look at it this way, given the law of diminishing returns, perhaps each $100 spent may only improve your gun reliability by a very small %, but wouldn't you want that extra performance/confidence if you ever really needed it?

Something else to consider: many custom gun owners spend as much or more on training & ammo as they do on their guns.

That's the worthwhile combinaton.

[MadMercS55]

I like custom guns, and the idea of a personalized, custom sidearm is very appealing to me at times. I've long been into custom knives as well, and paying to get exactly what I want on a customized personal level is nice and all, but I would honestly feel somewhat bad if I lost it, got it confiscated, etc. Not because the price, but more so the time and effort that went into the process of getting it made, etc. If I use a custom gun for defense, I'd hate to lose it to the county crime lab for years, and the neglect that is commonplace there. I wouldn't feel near as bad if I lost something easily replaced like a Glock/Sig/HK, etc.

[Kevinch]

Is there really that much difference in reliability between a Wilson/STI/etc. and a Glock/Beretta/Sig?

I think the short answer is "no".

I own a high-ticket 1911, & love shooting it. I also own what I would call a median ($600-$700) 1911, & shoots just as reliably as the high ticket gun.

Neither of them shoot any better than my Taurus PT940 or one of my Makarovs. The Maks I bought for about $125 each.

You can purchase reliable, accurate handguns for SD without spending $2k-$3k, or even spending $1k.

Also - don't forget - a semiauto is not the only platform available. There are a lot of reliable, well built revolvers out there that NIB can be had for less than $500.

[shooter.45]

I have had a few high dollar guns 1911's and dont think they are worth it not sure if its just me but I can shoot my Glocks and Xd's just as good if not better so no longer own the high dollar guns and will never spend the money on one again. Not that they are not built good the quality is excellent just not my cup of tea.

[HSMITH]

A Geo Metro will get you back and forth to work and the grocery store. So will a Porche Cayenne Turbo. Which one would you rather drive? Hot dogs will keep you fed, but wouldn't a steak be more satisfying?

There IS a difference between bread and butter service type handguns and high end hand built customs. I have a few of both, lots of times I am in a Metro and eating a hot dog but sometimes nothing but the best will do. Just a matter of personal taste.

[Mossyrock]

Worth it? Yup! :D MORE accurate or MORE reliable? Maybe. Sometimes. Depends. A custom gun allows you to have what YOU want...not what the factory THINKS you want or what THEY want. Good example.....Ruger never made a three-screw Blackhawk in .44 Special. They should have. I wanted one, so I had Dave Clements convert a .357 to .44 Special.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Mossyrock/Clements1.jpg

Kimber never built a Custom Compact in 10mm....for that matter, neither did anyone else. I wanted one, so I converted a .40 Smith to 10mm.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Mossyrock/KimberTen1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Mossyrock/BarrelHood.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Mossyrock/TargetKC.jpg

A Colt is a Colt is a Colt...unless it is massaged and tweaked by a master of the gunsmithing trade like Ted Yost, Chuck Rogers or Dane Burns. Then you get something that is so much more than the sum of its parts...

Yost Retro
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Mossyrock/Retro1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Mossyrock/Retro9.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Mossyrock/Retro11.jpg

Yost/Bonitz Lightweight OACP
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Mossyrock/YostOACP1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Mossyrock/YostOACP2.jpg

Chuck Rogers Colt Combat Elite
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Mossyrock/Rogers4.jpg

Dane Burns (BCP) Stainless Series '80
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Mossyrock/BCP1.jpg

So, after you invest all of this money, are they REALLY better than a factory gun? I would have to say yes. If you get a good gunsmith, a custom gun allows both you AND the gun to shoot to their full potential. That has to be worth something!

[fisi]

sorry, but i say NO!!! guns or cars. if it works and works right every time, then it all boils down to your satisfaction with it opposed to someone elses.

[Harold Mayo]

It all depends on your point of view, which is a function of your experience. Obviously some posters don't think that it's worth it.

My own take on it is that it's VERY worth it, though the law of diminishing returns applies big time. I have NEVER recommended a custom gun to anyone unless they asked, though. For most people, my recommendation is to buy a used Glock 19 for $350-425 or a police trade-in Sig from CDNN. Either is all that most people would ever need and are plenty reliable.

For ME, a custom gun gives a payoff. I'm not a believer in the much-vaunted Glock reliability...I've seen too many of them go TU with no user error. Sigs I can't say that about but that's another story...I won't personally use a decocker so, despite any other opinions I hold about Sigs, I won't have one as my carry gun unless forced. A custom gun ensures reliability (mine do, anyway), ergonomics suited to ME and (usually) greater accuracy. Custom does NOT necessarily mean $2K-3K, though.

The biggest expense in most custom guns is actually nothing but cosmetic and ergonomic improvements. Needed? Maybe, maybe not.

Here's a scale for me (percentages are some vague number and not indicative of anything in particular other than to make a point):

Used Glock....$350-400................97%
Used Kimber Series I...$600-700....97.2%
STI Ranger II....$950...................97.4%
Custom BHP......$1300-1500.........97.8%
Custom 1911 (mine).....$1900.......98.0%

Get the picture? Even though I own and have owned fairly high-dollar custom guns, I don't believe that there is a drastic increase in performance but there IS a difference. Mostly it's looks and pride of ownership. Still, though, there IS a difference, slight though it may be. It's just a matter of whether you want to spend the several hundred dollars more to gain the benefit or if you even believe that there IS a benefit....

[sturmruger]

I have two XDs that I shooter competitively, I have almost $1K into each of them and it was worth every penny.

As for a carry gun I will probably by buying a new carry gun in the near future and plan to have some simple work like trigger improvement, and better sights added on. I don't know if I would consider that "custom" gun.

[mec]

Mossyrock
Senior Member



Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
Posts: 258 Worth it? Yup!

The Clements Ruger and the Yost retro tells me that I like the way you think.

[Mossyrock]

Mossyrock
Senior Member



Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
Posts: 258 Worth it? Yup!

The Clements Ruger and the Yost retro tells me that I like the way you think.

Mr. Cumpston,

I suspect that you have seen that Ruger before. The Yost Retro is pretty new, so you might not have seen it. If you like those, you would probably REALLY like my rifle rack..... :D I suspect that you might also like the 10mm Delta I am working on. I wasn't planning it this way, but it turned out looking mysteriously like a MEU(SOC) 1911. This is what it looked like a few months ago. It is currently out being finished.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Mossyrock/BubbaDelta1.jpg

[Dobe]

This may be a dumb question, but is there really any reason to pay $2-3,000 for a self-defense pistol? I will probably never have the money anyway, but I have to wonder if you're really getting more bang for your buck (stupid pun intended). For those of you who have purchased a high end custom pistol, do you think it was worth the money, in terms of reliability? Is there really that much difference in reliability between a Wilson/STI/etc. and a Glock/Beretta/Sig?

If is worth it, if you feel a return on your money, and if you can afford it. The reliability may not be any better. It may be a function of enhancements that aids in practical accuracy.

For example, I have an Ed Brown which came with 25 lpi checkering on the front strap and the MH. It is a solid rest and does not slip. It is worth the extra cost to me for that enhancement. The speed bump beavertail is also a nice extra. It doesn't make the 1911 any more reliable from a machine rest, yet the practical enhancement is appreciated, especially if I were under stress.

The trigget is fantastic. I mostly use this for range work, yet while the mechanical accuracy hasn't changed because of this great 4 lb trigger, it surely links the shooter to the handgun.

Custom or high end guns generally have higher qualtity parts too. I know the Ed Browns have no MIM parts, and use cast parts sparringly. This will not make the handgun any more reliable, unless there is a fracture in a part. A fracture may or may not ever happen, but I feel better know that high grade parts are in my !911.

And of course the gun is just plain accurate. It is a pleasure to shoot. So, in answer to your question, yes it is worth it to me. It would not be worth it to me, if I could not afford it.

I've always felt that a Rolls Royce is a perfectly good car. Just because I can't afford it, doesn't make it less so.

Dobe

[DPB]

A lot of people are negative about high end production/semi custom guns (Brown, Wilson, Baer, etc.) is a problem with expectations. You can buy a NIB Kimber for, say $650. A NIB Wilson CQB runs around $2K.

People expect the CQB to be 300% as much gun, while in reality, it's more like 10% more gun. You will need to have a lot of rounds downrange to be able to tell the difference. The first time I fired a higher end gun, I couldn't tell the difference between that and my Kimber. Four years later, when I got my CQB, I could tell the difference. It was not a world shattering difference, but it was just easier to get the desired results with the CQB.

Is it worth it, absolutely, if you have been shooting enough to be able to tell the difference. If not, you won't even notice the 10%.

The best analogy I can use is that it's like the difference between driving a pickup truck versus a sports car on the highway. Both are more than capable of going down the road and getting from A to B. All else being equal, it just takes less work to drive the sports car. But when you were 16 years old, it took a lot of effort to drive either one.

True custom guns are running in the $4K plus range, and many smiths have waiting lists in running in years. We have gotten to the point that true custom guns are mostly collectors items, and very few people are willing to carry a pistol they spent $6000 on and waited 3 years to get.

[Dobe]

x

[mec]

"I suspect that you might also like the 10mm Delta I am working on. I wasn't planning it this way, but it turned out looking mysteriously like a MEU(SOC) 1911. This is what it looked like a few months ago. I,,"

Yes you do know what a gun is supposed to look and act like.

[Sleuth]

Part of the question goes beyond what has already been discussed. So far, most of the guns have been "enhanced" production guns. What about those guns which fill in a void?

During much of my career as a Federal Investigator, I carried a custom made gun. Not just a tuned production item, my LaFrance NOVA was a Star BKM cut down smaller than a Walther PPK. I could (and still do) carry it in a pants pocket, and have full 9mm power in a palm sized gun.

Later, after finding out about the NOVA, Star came out with the Firestar. Almost the same size, but heavy due to it's steel frame. Today, the Kahr 9mm is almost as small. But my Custom gun let me go armed and casually dressed, when being discovered armed could have been deadly, not merely embaressing.

So, when the custom gun fills a well defined need beyond pride of ownership, the answer most definitly is YES!

[sgist]

Again, I think you answered your own question. It is a personal decision based on your financial ability and whether you would always be unhappy with whichever stock gun you choose. I would look at the choices of stock guns, hold them in your hand, dtermine which would be most comfortable in your hand, then rent them to see what you like. Then buy it. You should be able to get a nice example of 1911, or glock, sig etc for $6-800. Shoot it a lot. Then after you have shot about a thousand rounds or so, what bothers you about the gun? Nothing? That's easy- stop there. If the trigger bothers you, get a trigger job. If you need night sights or some other feature, get that.

You might find that you will never desire a custom gun and you will save a lot of money. If, however, you start to look at too many nice customs on these pages and start to lust after the cosmetics etc. available from a custom maker...

[Kevinch]

Please note what frayluisfan wrote in the original question (emphasis added):For those of you who have purchased a high end custom pistol, do you think it was worth the money, in terms of reliability? Is there really that much difference in reliability between a Wilson/STI/etc. and a Glock/Beretta/Sig?

The question didn't ponder the extra expense in pride of ownership, or a preference for a particular barrel length or caliber in a particular platform, or fancy checkering or grips, or smoothing out lines or melting, etc. It simply asked about reliability. The high end guns used as an example were a Wilson or STI, with "etc" following to indicate similar firearms, and "regular" guns were represented by Glock, Beretta, & Sig.

From what I have read at THR & other forums, Glocks; Berettas, & Sigs are stone cold reliable out of the box (& I'm not a Glock fan). I'm assuming reliability here means that when you pull the trigger, the gun goes BANG, ejects the spent cartridge & feeds another without coming apart. To that end, I don't believe an extra $1k or $2k can get you more than the 100% reliability of a new, quality, production firearm. It may have a nicer trigger, gain a little in accuracy & have an overall smoother action but I don't believe it was the question asked.

If I'm wrong - just like Gilda Radner used to say on SNL: "nevermind!" :)

[sgist]

Yup, I think he has his answer. A Toyota will always be just as reliable or more reliable than a highly tuned custom Ferrari, no matter how expensive. It will probably get you to work just as well or better, too.

[BozemanMT]

It's not worth it
Until you shoot someone's Ted Yost modified BHP and think "wow, every BHP I ever shot never shot like this one"
then you get a bunch of 1911's and magically out of nowhere a Ted Yost modified commander shows up and the rest of the 1911's just sit around.
There are many as good as Yost also, just happened to work that way for me.

it's diminishing returns for sure, but there is a difference.

[frayluisfan]

Thanks to all for your replies and thoughts. And yes, I think I do have the answer I was looking for. It sounds to me like even those who advocate and enjoy the high end custom rigs acknowledge that the difference in life-saving potential is slim. If all I want is a car that is reliable and will get me to work and back, a Toyota will do just fine; if I want to go up and down mountain roads and enjoy a fine performance automobile, it may be necessary to think of other options. Same here: sounds like a Glock/Sig/Beretta may be just as functional as the high end jobs when it comes to self defense, even though they can't stack up in terms of beauty, fine-tuning, etc. In my particular case, I'm just interested in it turning over every time I put the key in the ignition, if you get my drift. However, to those connosieurs who appreciate and enjoy the true custom guns, more power to you! (Kind of like an old roommate I had, who could hear the difference between $250 speakers and $1,000 speakers...it all sounds pretty much the same to me.). Thank the good Lord that we live in a country where we can pursue this great sport the way we choose! Thanks again, guys.

Mike

[Dienekes]

There is a joke around our house that the best guns never cost much more than $150. That's not 100% true, but there is something to it. I spent most of my LEO/instructor career with a Security Six. Wore one barrel out and am still using the gun today. It has never, ever failed me and I am still trying to outshoot it.

I have occasionally thrown money at custom guns; one a beautiful Hawken replica and a LW Commander I had worked over by Yost. For whatever reason the Hawken never ran right and neither did the Yost gun. Both have gone to other homes and I don't miss them (just the money and ego I sunk into them).

OTOH I have a very clear memory of two Force Recon Marines going through the Gunsite 250 course with fairly clunky arms room 1911s and blowing everyone's doors off.

A custom gun is like a PhD--it may matter, but then again it may just mean that you just dropped a lot of money on something that will never justify the investment.

[10-Ring]

You know, it's all about value & if someone finds value in what they're buying, then it's worth it...just like buying guns for self defense...after the 1st one, why buy more? You can only shoot one at a time, right?:scrutiny:

[Ankeny]

You will need to have a lot of rounds downrange to be able to tell the difference. Ain't that the truth? I can tell the difference between a highly tuned 1911 and and run of the mill piece as far as shootability and performance.

My carry gun is a Glock 26 with a grip reduction, but I don't shoot it nearly as much as my nice 1911 pistols (competition shooter). I could carry a high end pistol, but I choose not to because the Glock suits my puposes better even though it is less shootable, not as accurate, and in all likelyhood, no more reliable.

[Harold Mayo]

OTOH I have a very clear memory of two Force Recon Marines going through the Gunsite 250 course with fairly clunky arms room 1911s and blowing everyone's doors off.

Are you sure those "clunky arms room 1911s" weren't actually predecessors to the MEUSOC pistols that had been worked over by armorers and just looked like "clunky arms room 1911s"...?;)

[Bob R]

As far as I am comcerned, a few high end guns are just fine. Do I need a bunch? Not really. I have a S&W 25-5 that has been worked over by one of the early greats, Austin Behlert. It is a true joy to shoot, so much in fact, I can hardly get it away from my wife.

I also carry a Yost Delta that I put a lot of money and time into.

Is it more accurate than my stock Para? yep. Is it more reliable than the Para? I don't really know, ask me after about 20k rounds. The Para was nothing if not rock solid reliable.

Does it feel better to shoot. Light years better. Pehaps I should have had a single stack all along.

Does it look better? for sure, much, much better.

If you have the money, and the inclination, I see nothing wrong with indulging your desire for top end custom guns.

Some like them, some don't see the necessity, or desire to have one.

YMMV

bob

[goon]

To me it definitely isn't. I have only a few guns right now that I can't imagine selling. I could cut my collection back to about 5 without losing any real capability. The only read mods I make are maybe trigger work, reliablity work, or changing a stock or grips to make something fit me right (I generally fit almost everything anyway).
But beauty is in the eye of the beholder...
So if you buy something made to what you want it to be and then decide that you want to sell or trade it or move on to something else, you are never going to get your money back out of it. (Especially if you have the terrible taste that I tend to have.)

I am a trader, a wheeler and dealer...
Some guys buy a gun and keep it no matter what. For them a custom gun is great.
For me it is a bad idea.

[StrikeEagle]

I spent most of my LEO/instructor career with a Security Six. Wore one barrel out and am still using the gun today. It has never, ever failed me and I am still trying to outshoot it.


I love that gun, the Security Six. :)

How many rounds do you figure you put through it... and what kind of ammo was it? 125grn .357 Mag loads, or what?

What happened to the barrel that you had to replace it? Forcing cone issues?

StrikeEagle

[LeonCarr]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and its not the song, its the singer.

My experience with custom handguns (all 1911s) has been less than stellar, experiencing reliability problems even when those 1911s were built by nationally recognized gunsmiths at the top of their craft. I can't tell the difference in my performance in either informal target shooting or competition shooting between a custom 1911 or a Glock, unless it is deliberate slow fire bullseye type shooting, in which case the custom 1911 with handfitted barrel and crisp trigger will of course be more accurate. Besides, it is much more fun when you outshoot somebody at a match when they are shooting their $3000 masterpiece, and you are shooting a $500 Glock :).

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

[LeonCarr]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and its not the song, its the singer.

My experience with custom handguns (all 1911s) has been less than stellar, experiencing reliability problems even when those 1911s were built by nationally recognized gunsmiths at the top of their craft. I can't tell the difference in my performance in either informal target shooting or competition shooting between a custom 1911 or a Glock, unless it is deliberate slow fire bullseye type shooting, in which case the custom 1911 with handfitted barrel and crisp trigger will of course be more accurate. Besides, it is much more fun when you outshoot somebody at a match when they are shooting their $3000 masterpiece, and you are shooting a $500 Glock :).

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

[Sleuth]

Let me put in another view. For 9 years I was the lead firearms instructor at my agency's academy, doing both basic & in-service training. At the time, our issue pistol was the (much maligned) S&W 6906. Those guns worked, even when dirty (some had not been cleaned in a year) and neglected. I broke the frame on my issue gun (a certain [large] amount of ammo ""fell off the truck""), and never knew it until I cleaned it after shooting 100% on our qual course.

Would a custom gun have worked any better? I think not.

They were not pretty, there was little "pride of ownership", but I never felt undergunned. In fact, my wife has chosen a 6906 as her carry gun. Over the years, many of the features that were "custom" are now 'factory'. And many custom gunmakers tout meaningless 'improved accuracy', frequently at the cost of absolute reliability. Who will need accuracy better than 6" at 25 yards? Most human heads are about 6" in diameter. And who really takes 25 yard head shots with a handgun?

It's a (mostly) free country - spend your money as you wish.

For many of us, the extra money spent on a custom gun would be far better invested in training with a factory gun.

[Air,Land&Sea]

It can't hurt to have at least one. Mine's a 5" Nighthawk Enforcer without front slide serrations and just a guide plug. Kinda hot.