What Would You Do? Full-auto SKS?


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Kramer Krazy
April 27, 2006, 10:03 AM
I walked into a pawn shop, yesterday, and saw two SKS rifles on the wall. One was a Yugo 59/66, but the other one wasn't, so I was curious about what it was. Turned out to be a Norinco for $219. I know these go for a bit more, so I decide to look it over. Doing operations checks, I am alerted when the hammer drops when I take it off of safety. I play around with it some more and discover that not only does the safety not work, but the hammer will come down every time the bolt is returned to battery. :eek: This even happens when the trigger is NOT touched! :what:

I tell the woman behind the counter that the gun is malfunctioning, is very unsafe, and is illegal in its current condition. I tell her that they need to get it repaired before they try to sell it......She puts it back up on the rack and seems to not care about what I just told her.

Missashot and I leave, but I can't get the idea out of my head that some unsuspecting, and unknowledgeable person, may buy it, take it home, load some ammo in it while sitting on the couch, let the bolt fly forward, and then take out a family member when it kicks into FA, so......I end up going back to the shop and talk to the older woman there.

I point the gun out, tell her what I told the first woman, tell her the above potential scenerio, and pretty much insist that they need to get it looked at. She leaves it on the rack and tells me that she'll tell her husband. I suggested that she take it off the rack and tag it as needing repair, as they don't want to sell it that way, and she leaves it on the rack, tells me that they don't have room for it in the back, and just tells me, again, that she'll let her husband know.

Now, even before going back and talking to the second woman, I was tempted on buying the gun and repairing it, as I have a strong feeling that they will not get it repaired. So, now, I'm wondering what I should do. What would you do?

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Third_Rail
April 27, 2006, 10:11 AM
You tried to tell them of its unsafe condition.

I'd report it to the local law enforcement - NOT because it's an unregistered MG, but because it's completely unsafe.

Nick1911
April 27, 2006, 10:14 AM
Personally, I would report it.
While I'm not a huge fan of the ATF, I feel that this is one time that contacting them would be a good idea. If they aren't willing to take it off the shelves, it seems that if it were I, as a member of the gun community I would report it and want others to do likewise.

I wouldn't want to see a fellow gunny or his family get killed or hurt due to this stores negligence. Contact the ATF, or like Third_Rail said, the local authorities.

rdbrowning
April 27, 2006, 10:18 AM
You buying it to repair it sounds like a good idea, until there is a delay in getting the parts and you get caught with an illegal FA rifle. Trying not to be paranoid, but after some of the entrapment antics that the BATFE have pulled at gun shows, would it be possible for them to try planting a FA rifle in a pawn shop?:scrutiny:

SolaScriptura139
April 27, 2006, 10:24 AM
I would report it. Someone could get killed because of the stupidity of the pawn shop people. You warned them, they had their chance to fix it, if they didn't, whatever trouble they get in was their own fault.

Mizzle187
April 27, 2006, 10:35 AM
Well if I was some kind of thug,criminal.etc... I would buy it in a second but Im no such thing so I would report it to a local authority for quicker response. It may take the ATF days to get there.

Kramer Krazy
April 27, 2006, 10:40 AM
You buying it to repair it sounds like a good idea, until there is a delay in getting the parts and you get caught with an illegal FA rifle.
I already thought about that......I figured I'd disassemble it partially while at the shop and maybe throw away a part or two so it would essentially be a parts-gun, then.

Third_Rail
April 27, 2006, 10:42 AM
Kramer Krazy - if I were you, I would not buy that gun in its present state - you'd be knowingly buying an unregistered FA weapon, and the BATFE looks down on that.

Nickotym
April 27, 2006, 10:44 AM
I'm not sure I understand why it is illegal? Was the gun modified to full auto or is it just broken? If it is just broken, I don't see how it is illegal.

So if the sear on my pistol breaks so it goes full auto is my pistol now illegal?

Sistema1927
April 27, 2006, 10:58 AM
I would have minded my own business in the first place, and wouldn't have made a big deal out of it, either there or here.

ID_shooting
April 27, 2006, 10:58 AM
That is just it, it isn't FA or an NFA weapon, it is malfunctioning. You can't charge it and fire in FA mode, it is a run-away gun, as soon as the bolt closes it will fire and keep firing until the mag is empty.

Now, it could be some yahoo tried to to a trigger job a hosed it, but still, it is not a maching gun

cmidkiff
April 27, 2006, 11:10 AM
I'd like to see the BATFE abolished. I believe that MG's are just as protected as any other form of firearm by the 2nd. Still... I'd turn this one in.

Just too much of a possibility of someone killing themselves or someone else with this malfunctioning rifle. You told them, and gave them a couple days to get it off the shelf. If it's still there, it needs to be dealt with by someone with the ability to force them to correct the problem. I wouldn't go back, let the BATFE go searching for it.

Nickotym: Yup. BATFE has considered malfunctioning weapons that are capable of firing more than one round with a single pull of the trigger as a machine gun, and prosecuted law abiding citizens, and confiscated their property, as a result. Google 'John Glover FAL' for one well documented example.

jpIII
April 27, 2006, 11:18 AM
Another option would be to ask to see it again. Ask if you can field strip it.
While field stripping, take the offending part out, (probably the trigger group). Reassemble the weapon minus the offending part(as best as you can). And offer to pay the price for the weapon in full, while telling them to keep the offending part.

Of course if it is the trigger group, then you'll pay half of what the rifle costs to get another one.

Good luck, and be cautious.

woerm
April 27, 2006, 11:19 AM
strip the piece and see if the prob is the trigger or the bolt.

I fall into the trigger job gone awry here, as the trigger bar/sear can be made too thin/narrow to stop the hammer. You have to work at it but it is a possibility.

the other malfunction is if the firing pin is put back into the bolt upside down the gun will run away (don't ask how I know this one):what: . After reassembling a sks bolt alway make sure the firing pin moves freely, there isn't a firing pin spring.:evil:

But from the description the issue here is fixable with a new trigger group.:D

might get try to get a discount on the 'broken gun' and buy a new trigger at the next evil loophole gun show/weapons mart.

r

WayneConrad
April 27, 2006, 11:30 AM
Don't report it: The laws banning it are unconstitutional and should not be enforced.

Don't buy it: But neither do you want fed.gov on your case over a broken gun. It's also not terribly useful in its current condition. Why buy a fixer-upper when you can get one that ain't broke?

cookekdjr
April 27, 2006, 11:36 AM
Regardless of how you feel about how the 2nd Am applies to full autos, you should report this to the ATF. The person who modified this gun has probably done alot of other illegal stuff...and the ATF needs to know about him.

M2 Carbine
April 27, 2006, 11:37 AM
There's nothing that scares people more than a lawsuit.

What I would do is go back and ask to see the rifle again. If it is still on display I would copy down the serial number. When they ask you why you want the serial number, tell them that when someone buys this gun, is hurt, and ends up suing the shop owner that you intend being a witness to the fact that the shop owner knowingly sold a defective and illegal rifle.

Tell them that you normally don't get involved in other people's affairs but anyone that would sell such a dangerous gun just to make a few dollars profit deserves to lose everything they own and possibly go to jail.

Works every time.;)

Zero_DgZ
April 27, 2006, 11:55 AM
This is a question that hasn't got a good answer. You've come up with a stumper, here.

I think the above poster has the right idea, but maybe if you never want to go back to that gun shop ever again! Either it'll be shut down or they'll throw you out, and in any instance you probably won't be their bestest buddy if you cause anything to happen to them via the ATF.

Personally, I don't see much reason in giving the ATF any more reason to go around bullying people, but it's highly irresponsible for the shop to be selling a rifle in that condition unless, maybe, they're specifically selling it as an 'as-is' parts rifle, not meant to fire in its current condition.

Check up on your state laws and see what the deal is with full auto firearms. Could be that you could report it to the local yokels and A) get some brownie points with the local LEO's (never a bad plant), B) get that thing off the rack at the gun store so nobody gets hurt with it, C) probably not get the ATF involved (at least directly - lots of stuff can be taken care of on the state level because nobody, not even local cops, want the feds to get involved and complicate things unless they have to), and D) keep yourself the heck out of trouble!

waterhouse
April 27, 2006, 12:12 PM
As someone else mentioned, I'd report is not because it could be considered FA, but because it is unsafe and someone could get hurt. I voted for going back on Saturday . . .possibly when the owner of the store got back he was informed and he took the gun down, in which case there is no need to report anything.

I worry that if the ATF gets involved they might decided that the dealer is trying to sell a machine gun, which would pretty much ruin his livelihood, so I hope it doesn't come down to that.

This story is also a great reminder about why it is important to always follow the 4 rules. Guns can malfunction, but if they are pointed in a safe direction the outcome should just be a trip to the gunsmith, not a trip to the hospital.

merk
April 27, 2006, 12:30 PM
I would have minded my own business in the first place, and wouldn't have made a big deal out of it, either there or here.

That seems irresponsible to walk away from something you know for a fact can really hurt somebody, or end up getting someone in jail and not even knowing the reason. As a matter of fact, I wish there were more people like him pointing stuff out like that. America can use a little less lawsuits for no reaosn.

WT
April 27, 2006, 12:35 PM
Helping the BATFE is like helping the Nazis put people in gas chambers.

The gun owner is ultimately responsible for the safe operation of his firearm. It doesn't take much to have a used firearm checked over by a competent gunsmith.

Chipperman
April 27, 2006, 12:53 PM
I vote to go back Saturday then report it if still not fixed.

One thing nobody here has mentioned is that I can understand some of the skepticism from the ladies who work there.

How many ignorant SOBs go into that pawn shop on a daily basis and tell them completely false things about the guns they sell?
"You can't sell that AK47, that's illegal!"

How can they tell you from any of the knuckleheads that go in there?

Try to speak with the owner directly, and show him why the gun is unsafe. If he blows you off, then call ATF.

This situation goes beyond stupid laws and rogue federal tax agents. Someone could easily get hurt or killed by that gun. How would that come back to haunt all of us gun owners? The anti-gun crowd would have a field day with it. They need to close the "Pawn Shop Loophole", they are selling SKS assault machine guns to kill our children.

Carl N. Brown
April 27, 2006, 01:10 PM
Pawn shop selling a gun KNOWING it is unsafe:
if they don't put a tag on the gun that it needs
repair before it is used, they should be liable
for damages, hopefully not a death or imjury.
And they should discount the price.

A responsible shop would have the gun repaired.
An irresponsible shop deserves being reported.

BTW, I would consider this a broken or malfunctionung
gun in need of repair. Some unwitting purchaser could
end up with illegal machinegun possession if the wrong
ATF enforcement agent finds out. ATF tech people
would say get the gun fixed before an enforcement
agent finds out, just as they advise buyers of police
auction riot guns with 17 7/8 inch barrels to have a
cutts compensator installed to lengthen the barrel,
when an enforcement agent would smell red meat,
yumyum.

Missashot
April 27, 2006, 02:09 PM
Kramer Krazy:
You are just looking for an excuse to buy ANOTHER gun!
I'm not falling for that one! :neener:
And no, I'm not going to let you load the thing up and point it in my direction!:eek:

jesse485
April 27, 2006, 02:20 PM
I say go back Sat. and buy it if it isn't repaired. It isn't like SKS's are hard or expensive to fix/ work on.

AnthonyRSS
April 27, 2006, 02:49 PM
Its not necessarily full auto, its just broken. I think the danger lies in the probability of someone buying the gun, loading it, and shooting another. I would probably talk to the owner again, and if that doesn't fix it, I would call the BBB.

Anthony

repsychler
April 27, 2006, 02:52 PM
I'd wait until the owner was there, ask to see the SKS and if it hasn't been repaired, call him over. Explain (and show him) whats wrong with it and how that will cause the rifle to go FA. Explain that not only could he end up liable for someone's death, but it could be construed as selling an unregistered MG.
If that doesn't get him to do something about it, he's a fool and he deserves what he gets. I'd go to the local authorities first and then the ATF if there's no action from them.

If this was just a matter of the gun being broken, I could side with the "caveat emptor" folks and just ignore it. But in this case you could be saving someone's life.

ball3006
April 27, 2006, 03:24 PM
to me, most probably the trigger group. I have had an SKS run away :what: . It turns out a piece of pierced primer jammed the firing pin and turned the gun into an open bolt gun. Kinda neat. It was a Yugo 59/66 and was very controllable to boot......Tell them you will take that broken SKS off their hands for 150 bucks.....There are trigger group parts around......This is not a FA issue unless you take it to the range and do the "watch this" thing......chris3

Thylacine
April 27, 2006, 03:36 PM
Do you have any friends that are Cops? Bring one with you when you point out to the OWNER the fact that he is trying to sell a possibly dangerous, certainly malfunctioning firearm. Then if he doesn't want to fix it, see if the cop can get it pushed up the food chain. I would not call the BATF&E unless I knew I had tried everything else.

Deanimator
April 27, 2006, 03:52 PM
Just ratting the shop out at first would be wrong. They might not know.

In this case, they DO know. You've TOLD them, and they seem not to care.

I'd go back again and see if it was still there, in the same condition. If it is, then I have no sympathy for the shop owners. At that point, we've gone from an innocent lack of knowledge to negligence/dishonesty. If they don't care if a customer is arrested or INJURED because of the gun, you shouldn't care if the Federal Klan (BATFE) makes their life a hell on earth.

As for the issue of it being a "broken" gun. The BATFE doesn't care in the slightest way. They've arrested COPS who REPORTED doubling guns to them and asked what they should do. The BATFE are degenerate thugs. If the gunshop doesn't take care of the problem, they and F Troop deserve each other.

I believe in giving an honest person a break. If you go back and things haven't changed, they're not honest and deserve only a boot in the behind for endangering an innocent third party's life, health and freedom.

White Horseradish
April 27, 2006, 05:10 PM
Personally, I would try and get a few bucks knocked off because this is a non-functional broken gun and buy it, then check the trigger group fro signs of alteration. If it's been obviously altered, toss the hacked-up parts and buy new ones, otherwise work with what's there.

But then, I am a sucker for junky guns...

Sinsaba
April 27, 2006, 05:13 PM
There's nothing that scares people more than a lawsuit.

What I would do is go back and ask to see the rifle again. If it is still on display I would copy down the serial number. When they ask you why you want the serial number, tell them that when someone buys this gun, is hurt, and ends up suing the shop owner that you intend being a witness to the fact that the shop owner knowingly sold a defective and illegal rifle.

Tell them that you normally don't get involved in other people's affairs but anyone that would sell such a dangerous gun just to make a few dollars profit deserves to lose everything they own and possibly go to jail.

Works every time.

What he said

LiquidTension
April 27, 2006, 05:21 PM
Will an SKS actually go full auto if the hammer rides the bolt down? My FAL does this if you put the selector on the auto setting, but the hammer is slowed down by the bolt and it doesn't have enough inertia to fire a round. Basically it turns it into a manually operated single shot bolt gun.

I saw an Albanian SKS go full auto once - it climbed pretty good before the mag was empty; definitely a safety hazard.

mp510
April 27, 2006, 05:42 PM
Will an SKS actually go full auto if the hammer rides the bolt down? My FAL does this if you put the selector on the auto setting, but the hammer is slowed down by the bolt and it doesn't have enough inertia to fire a round. Basically it turns it into a manually operated single shot bolt gun.

I saw an Albanian SKS go full auto once - it climbed pretty good before the mag was empty; definitely a safety hazard.

Many of the very late Norinco et al (Chinese) made SKS rifles that were imported just prior to the ban were of less than par quality, and internal fire control parts would easily break and send the gun into firing in a manner that could cause "serious problems".

The ATF does prosecute people with broken guns, and they have been beaten though you never really can put your faith in 12 people. Even if you could, the legal fees would be astronomical.

Derek Zeanah
April 27, 2006, 05:46 PM
I think you made a mistake in telling her it was unsafe and illegal. I would have tried something like "Lady, if someone loads this and pulls the trigger or simply takes the safety off, the things gonna fire full-auto until it's empty. Probably a cheap fix, and I'd hate to think of the liability if someone with kids loads it at home figuring it'll be as safe as it's supposed to be and it goes full-auto unexpectedly..."

secamp32
April 27, 2006, 11:20 PM
If so I would contact the agency responsible. People willing to sell an unsafe gun like that shouldn't be selling guns.

gezzer
April 27, 2006, 11:39 PM
What a bunch of little atf finks.

The gun is broke it may not even fire in that condition more than 1 round as the hammer follws the bolt down. Grated the shop should have it fixed or marked as broken as-is but turning them in to the police atf what a bunch of chicken @$@$

HSMITH
April 28, 2006, 12:05 AM
No way in heck would I spend my hard earned money on a broken gun just so someone else doesn't end up with it. I can't see the logic in it at all. Sure, I see the emotion and good intentions, but it just doesn't make any sense at all to me.

I have found broken and/or unsafe guns in gunshops, I politely let the staff know of the problem I found and demonstrate if necessary what the problem is. How they deal with that information is up to them. Whether someone buys it in that condition or not isn't my responsibility and it isn't my concern.

People of all sorts and of different mental capacities frequent gunshops. Unless you are known to the staff I would not expect to be taken as an expert any more than the last gun shop commando that just left. To turn someone in to the ATF for not taking me as an expert and immediately removing a gun from the rack just because I said it was broken is beyond my comprehension. I don't see how anyone could do that in good concience. I would NEVER take someone elses livelihood into my hands because they hesitate to take my (a stranger) advise.

silversilvia
April 28, 2006, 03:22 AM
i had a full auto sks once. the firing pin was stuck boy that was a fun 5 round burst.

Kramer Krazy
April 28, 2006, 11:27 AM
The gun is broke it may not even fire in that condition more than 1 round as the hammer follws the bolt down.
Actually, the hammer only falls once the bolt is pushed the last 1/8" of travel to a closed position. The hammer is NOT following the bolt, it's actually breaking free of the disconnect in the last moments of bolt travel.

i had a full auto sks once. the firing pin was stuck boy that was a fun 5 round burst.
It probably would be......until it fired out of battery.

Do you have any friends that are Cops?
I emailed a friend who is a State Trooper and asked his opinion and even offered to demonstrate an SKS's functionability with my Yugo 59/66 if he wants to go check it out for himself. I have not given him the name of the shop....yet.

Auslander
April 28, 2006, 12:33 PM
Guys,

Hammer following bolt DOES NOT EQUAL Full Auto.

You are giving ideas to people who think you can file an AR15 sear and in under 10 minutes "make it go full auto". You assume the rifle will fire until empty just because the hammer followed the bolt down. More likely the gun will not fire at all due to light primer strikes.

The hammer in a closed bolt machinegun only drops once the bolt is at battery. The hammer falls quickly using its mass accelerated by the hammer spring to impact the firing pin and fire the round. The hammer has to hit the pin hard enough to make the primer ‘go bang’. Semi-auto firearms are the same way. The hammer weight and spring force are calculated to give a big enough whack the firing pin to make the primer go bang but not so much as to cause the pin to puncture the primer.

If the hammer ‘rides the bolt down’, most of the energy in the hammer spring is released as the bolt moves forward and only a very light blow, if any, hits the firing pin.

Kramer Krazy
April 28, 2006, 02:37 PM
the hammer will come down every time the bolt is returned to battery
Above is from my very first post. I guess I should have spelled it out a little better for some of you, because the hammer is NOT following the bolt. If this was the case, I wouldn't be as concerned about this. I once left the disconnector spring out of an AR-15 which caused the hammer to follow the bolt. As Auslander states, this does not guarantee that the gun will fire when this happens. As in the case of the missing disconnector spring, the gun did not fire on the second round, but......this SKS is only letting the hammer down somewhere in the last 1/8" or so of travel that the bolt makes to close. I didn't take the gun apart to see how it is doing this, but I specifically remember taking the bolt to within 1/4" of closing and then slowly sliding it forward until the hammer dropped......I did this with my finger OFF the trigger and with the safety in the ON position......in other words, you only have to let the bolt fly forward. The safety and trigger are ineffective, and when the hammer is coming down, I'd bet my next paycheck I can get it to at least double fire.

Carl N. Brown
April 28, 2006, 03:11 PM
It is a broken gun.
The shop should have it fixed before selling it.
The ATF does not need to be bothered with a
broken gun in a pawn shop.
Now Chinese freighter Empress Phoenix in Oakland
harbor with a cargo conatiner of 2000 FA AK47s,
THAT is worth drpping a dime over....
but not one broken SKS. Perspective.

repsychler
April 28, 2006, 03:29 PM
HSMITH:
To turn someone in to the ATF for not taking me as an expert and immediately removing a gun from the rack just because I said it was broken is beyond my comprehension. I don't see how anyone could do that in good concience.

And I don't see how anyone can in good conscience just let this slide. I know how I'd feel if a week later I picked up a local paper and read about someone getting hurt/killed by an SKS that went FA. Heck even if no one got hurt, I don't think we need to give the media that kind of "ammo."

I don't expect the owner to take a trangers word as gospel, but if someone showed me how my gun could be dangerously broken, I'd look into it before I sold it to someone else.

ajkurp
April 29, 2006, 12:36 AM
MYOB. Go vote Republican, Or Democrat. Collect your welfare check, Whatever.

444
April 29, 2006, 12:44 AM
1) Mind my own business.
2) Not attempt to rat people out on a worldwide forum under any circumstances.

I can't for the life of me understand the motivation behind threads like this. Assuming this is true do you want a pat on the back for being such a gun expert ? Is that why you chose to make this an internationally known thing ? I can't decide which is more arrogant: you sticking your nose in other people's business, or you coming on here telling us you are saving the world from some gun dealer.

Wouldn't it be nice if you didn't know quite as much as you think you do, only now the ATF raids the store and ruins the owners life because you chose to tell everyone on-line what a great guy you are ?
Or, how about this. Everything you say is true. The ATF ruins these people's lives AND gun owners get another black eye with the "news" item about gun stores selling unregistered machine guns.
Thanks, you are doing us all a big favor.

"I'd bet my next paycheck I can get it to at least double fire."
That's big of you. You already bet EVERYTHING that store owner had by shooting your mouth off on the internet to show us how great you are, wagering one of your paychecks is the least you could do. If I could have one wish right now, it would be that the owner of this store reads this and sues you for everything you have (if anything).


This is exactly why I don't vote democrat. They spend all their time doing what is good for us, all without our consent. The whole time telling us what great guys they are.

ajax
April 29, 2006, 02:35 PM
444 as for as i can tell he never gave the name of the of the shop so how is this guy being told on to the www. Seems your being a little presumptuous by your statement. Also a lack of concern over someones possible well being if they buy this firearm and though dumb as it may be shoot someone on accident. You should try sounding a little more civil you never know you might actually like it ,or are you another one of those guys here that likes to verbally attack out of hand.

444
April 29, 2006, 03:04 PM
I don't think you fully appreciate what we are talking about here.

This isn't some kid telling on another kid so he gets sent to the pricipal's office or so he has to stand in the corner. We are talking about having a tactical team kick in the doors, shoot anyone that they say presented a threat to them, seizing all their assets, putting them in irons and hauling them off to jail. In American law enforcement, there would be few times that more assets and violence would be unleashed on a person than when ATF is doing a raid on someone that MIGHT be selling an unregisted machine gun.The same tactics and force will be used on this guy as would be used on the head of a cocaine cartel. After all the shock and awe, the ATF is then free attempt to prove their case. In this month's SWAT magazine there is a good article about how this is done. If someone is accused of possession or sale of an unregistered automatic weapon, obviously ATF has to prove this was the case. Their rules say that their GUNSMITH can work on the gun for up to EIGHT HOURS and if he can get it to fire full auto, you will be convicted. They have even added parts in teh past and this was considered OK by ATF in making their case. If convicted, this guy loses EVERYTHING and probably does time in prision. None of this is typical internet gun forum speculation, this has been done thousands of time by ATF.
Ever hear of Randy Weaver ? He was accused of selling a short barreled shotgun that was not registered. They shot members of his family and his dogs. They shot his wife while she was holding a baby through the front door of their house. Yes, it was an FBI sniper that fired the shot but the crime he was accused of was an violation of the NFA just like this thread.
Ever hear of the Branch Dividians ? I don't know exactly what was going on there: that isn't the point. The point is that at least ONE of the crimes they were accused of was violation of the NFA. Their home (compound ?) was eventually set on fire and many of them were roasted alive.
So, you tell me, I am being harsh ?
Is making allegations about someone on a worldwide forum with consequnses like this the right thing to do ? Does the alleged crime fit the possible punishement ? Do you feel comfortable sicing a group like this on a guy that MIGHT be selling a gun with a broken part for probably less than $100 ? And are you comfortable doing this because some guy you dont' even know and you have no idea of his experience or expertise said so ? You are comfortable ruining this guys whole life because this gun MIGHT fire full auto and MIGHT be dangerous ? The guy making these accusations has even backed off saying that he bets he can get it to double.
This guy is trying to impress us with his knowlege and get attention. In doing so, he could literally be sentencing someone else to death just so he can get attention.
If none of this got through to you, let me ask you this: How would you like some guy do this to YOU ? What if YOUR doors got kicked in, YOUR assets seized, YOU imprisoned, YOUR business closed, and YOU on the hook for a criminal attorney. How would you like to be facing 10 years in prison and all the rape and violence that entails so you can get out and be a convicted felon trying to make a living: ALL because some guy accused you of something on the internet just because he SAW and briefly handled one of your guns ?
How about asking yourself why this is a crime to begin with. It is a crime only because "they" say it's a crime. This isn't like murder or rape. It isn't robbery. It is just a piece of metal and wood that someone says is illegal. But many on this thread think it is perfectly OK for a guy to lose everything because of it ?


You know, in Germany, in the late 1930s and early 1940s you could turn in a Jew for not wearing the star. After all, it was the law and the government told you everyday that it was being done for your good. If Anne Frank was hiding in the attic, you could probably get a pat on the back as being a good citizen if you turned her in: they could arrest her, her family, and the people's house who she was hiding in. At that time and place that would have been considered your civic duty. It would have not only been the law but it would have been considered your duty. The fact that you would be sentencing someone to a death camp shouldn't bother you at all. After all, they are only Jews.
If you can't see the similarities, I pray for you.
It really worries me that so many gun owners have no concept of what we are dealing with here.

This guy didn't need to know the location or name of the store. I know the location of the guy posting the thread , it is right there for all to see. ATF knows where every gun store around there is: they license them. This might be a big surprise to you, but ATF doesn't even care if they have the right store or if they have the right gun. As mentioned previously, they don't even care if the gun will really fire full auto: if THEY can make it fire full auto, that guy's life is over. It certainly wouldn't be beneath them to go to ANY gun store and railroad the guy based on this "tip" they got off the internet. It has been done before and proven to have been done before in court.

deadin
April 29, 2006, 03:04 PM
Take a witness. Go to shop and, once again, warn them that the gun is unsafe and needs to be repaired before sale.
Send a friend in next day. If gun is still for sale, have him buy it.
Take it home, load it, make sure it is pointed in a direction that can take a little damage.
Drop the bolt. Traumatize your family and friends.
Sue the crap out of the store for pain and suffering, loss of hair and anything else you can think of .:D :D :rolleyes:
This is assuming that it will go off at all. If the hammer is following the bolt down, there may not be enough of a hit on the pin to set off a primer.

Manedwolf
April 29, 2006, 04:15 PM
Report it. You saw it was dangerously malfunctioning. The lady isn't going to "tell her husband", she could care less. That sort of seller needs to be taken down.

Don't report it: The laws banning it are unconstitutional and should not be enforced.

I take it you don't understand what the issue is. If someone put a full mag in in their home or apartment and slammed the bolt closed, it could very fell just START FIRING on full-auto through walls, kids, people in the next house or other apartments.

Could you live with that on your concience, if you saw "Gun accident kills neighbor" on the evening news?

C96
April 29, 2006, 05:30 PM
444 ~ Amen and Amen !! Involving the F-Troop in anything is very dangerous business
to all involved and especially to any kittens that happen to be in the neigborhood.

There is absolutely no downside for them in anything they do. :fire: :fire: :fire:

444
April 29, 2006, 05:39 PM
This will probably be taken as an attack, but is it any wonder why we are losing our liberties and our right to own firearms when you read the posts on a thread like this ?

WT
April 29, 2006, 05:47 PM
444 - I've got to agree with you. We have a host of BATFE Informers here. They are doing it to save the children.

WayneConrad
April 29, 2006, 06:06 PM
Manedwolf wrote, "I take it you don't understand what the issue is. If someone put a full mag in in their home or apartment and slammed the bolt closed, it could very fell just START FIRING on full-auto through walls, kids, people in the next house or other apartments.

"Could you live with that on your concience, if you saw "Gun accident kills neighbor" on the evening news?"

I think I do understand the issue.

Saving the neighbor's kids from an imaginary and unlikely scenario is not worth summoning the BATFE demon. Any aspiring conjurer thinking that the BATFE demon can be controlled so that it will do only good will soon learn better. Even if it does what you want this time, summoning it makes it stronger and less controllable the next time.

I'll sleep just fine. I didn't break the gun, I didn't sell the gun, and I even attempted to let the owner know there was a problem. I focused on the real problem and told the owner it was unsafe. I didn't distract the owner with the word "illegal."

The real issue here is selling an unsafe product. If you really want to save the neighbor's kids from the full-auto SKS, calling BATFE will take too long. The gun might be sold before they get around to doing something about it. Make yourself a sign that says:

Unsafe SKS being sold inside. Beware!

and picket the place. If someone walks out with the SKS, let them know what the problem is. It's the only sure way to save the children.

Sistema1927
April 29, 2006, 06:33 PM
The scary thing here is not a broken SKS.

Instead, it is the fact that "The High Road" is populated with people who think:

1) Ratting out a business to the ATF is a good thing;
2) That by so doing they are protecting "the children" from an unsafe gun; and
3) Meddling in the affairs of others is acceptable.

All firearms purchasers should ensure that any weapon they buy is safe. If they are unsure, they should enlist the help of a gunsmith or other expert. Also, with every semi-auto that I have ever bought, new or used, I have taken care to load one round and shoot it, then load two and shoot them, then 3, etc. until I am sure that it won't run away. This is their responsibility as a responsible firearms owner. It isn't anyone else's business, and it is insulting that some folks here want to be the protectors of others.

fatelk
April 29, 2006, 07:52 PM
This is my first post on this forum, thought I needed to throw in my two cents worth. The SKS has a sear that is controlled by the trigger and a disconnector that is controlled by the closing of the bolt. I have seen one and heard of several occasions where the sear edge becomes worn and rounded to the point where it no longer controls the hammer. It will fire when the bolt is closed and continue firing until the magazine is empty. The owner of the rifle I repaired thought is was great fun and couldn't possibly be illegal since it was a legitimate malfunction. I told him: 1. Very dangerous 2. Yes- illegal unless repaired ASAP, which we then did. The edge of the sear can be sharpened with a file like we did to fix it in a matter of minutes, but it is better to simply buy a new sear, they are inexpensive and available. This is a relatively common malfunction and easily repaired if you have some mechanical abilities and common sense.

As to the gun shop, I see absolutely no reason to involve the ATF. This is a dangerous malfunction, not a crime. Simply return to the shop, politely explain what you think the problem is, this is a common malfunction with the SKS, very dangerous and even illegal if not repaired ASAP, and strongly recomend they have a gunsmith look at it before selling it. They would have to be insane or on drugs to not at the very least have it looked at.

Linux&Gun Guy
April 30, 2006, 02:15 AM
I would not report it to the ATF. All such "reporting of a non-crime" is ratting and thus not ethical or good.

Instead either ignore it or buy it and remove the offending parts and dump them in a river and repair it.

It is up to the person buying the *used* gun to make sure it is safe.

I agree 444 - Just like the more well known DEA the ATF is becoming a scary threat to us Americans.

ajax
April 30, 2006, 04:43 AM
I personally wouldn't go as for as calling on the BATFE but he has a responsibility as a gun owner who knows something is wrong with a firearm that for all intents and purposes could end up in inexperienced hands and cause harm. Firearm responsibilty doesn't stop with the 4 rules. 444 you and the sit quiet guys are showing as for as I'm concerned a real lack of responsibilty attitude as gun owners ,and yes you were attacking in first thread. The fact that you would say we're losing rights because some of the guys here would make an effort to do something when you would do nothing makes no sense to me. How about guys like you who would chance what could happen and if it did it would give anti's even more ammo. So maybe it's you and guys like you that hurt our rights with your lack of responsibility.

Manedwolf
April 30, 2006, 06:02 AM
I point the gun out, tell her what I told the first woman, tell her the above potential scenerio, and pretty much insist that they need to get it looked at. She leaves it on the rack and tells me that she'll tell her husband. I suggested that she take it off the rack and tag it as needing repair, as they don't want to sell it that way, and she leaves it on the rack, tells me that they don't have room for it in the back, and just tells me, again, that she'll let her husband know.

And despite the fact that it's obvious she wasn't going to do a :cuss: thing about it, and would just sell it as-is...I really can't believe people are okay with that. "No room in the back" for a slender rifle? Talk about a line of BS...

Yeah, BATF can be a pain, but they can also be used for their PURPOSE.

And I couldn't let a seller get away with that any more than I'd not call the cops if I saw a car driving around with three wheels.

BAD sellers like that are WHY the BATFE gets more power to harass the good ones. Ever think about that? If they sell a gun, there's an accident, then the opportunistic politicians, media and BATFE can go "You see? All gun sellers are dangerous, we need to regulate them more! SKSs are dangerous old imports, see, they need to be banned or subject to another $$ inspection approval and modification when imported!"

Whereas one call, one agent pulling the gun and slapping them with a fine would be quiet, and no call for media anything.

Bad, unsafe gun sellers are not any friend of 2A defenders. They're no different than people who sell beer to kids and get the liquor laws tightened as a result, punishing the lawful sellers. And defending them, rather than having them knocked into line, only hurts the good ones in the long run.

albanian
April 30, 2006, 11:11 AM
$219 is not a good price for a Norinco so buying it will be a money losing situation. Why would you want to pay top dollar for a gun that you know is broken from a gunshop that doesn't even care? I suggest you make it the gunshop's problem and not your own. It is not your duty to ensure that every rifle in the store is safe, it is the gunshop's duty. You can infrom people that will enforce the laws and safety but it is not always wise to try and save the world.

I would talk to the owner and let him know that you know there is an unsafe rifle in his store and you think he should fix it. You may want to go back and get the SN# as well. Write it down and send it to the police. If someone buys it and has a bad accident, the police will have known before hand that the gun was unsafe and that the gunshop knowningly sold it that way.

Gevarm
April 30, 2006, 12:47 PM
fatelk, pics on what you said

http://www.hunt101.com/img/401165.bmphttp://www.hunt101.com/img/401164.bmp

Joey2
April 30, 2006, 06:27 PM
I would bring it up with the store owner ONLY, and only because it is a safety issue with the gun in the hands of an untrained person.

444
April 30, 2006, 06:53 PM
EDIT:
I went in and took a shower and tried to come to grips with this. I realize that this guy is going to do what he is going to do and trying to reason with him is not going to do any good. I understand the motivation, but bringing it up isn't going to help.


"Whereas one call, one agent pulling the gun and slapping them with a fine would be quiet, and no call for media anything."
Please understand that this isn't going to happen. This isn't like a parking ticket. I don't think you understand this. Please, Please listen. That isn't going to happen.
As I said previously: the same violence is going to be unleased as would be unleased on the head of a Cocaine cartel.
They don't just give out a fine and say have a nice day.

Let me give you a sort of related example. This wasn't the ATF, but the result will be the same. This is an absolute true story.
A friend of mine was married for a short time to a Russian mail order bride. After she got to this country she met a police officer and moved in with him. Appearently she was worried that he would cause some problems with her immigration status, so either she or her boyfriend turned him in as a drug dealer.
At o'dark thrity a tactical narcotics team complete with black hoods and machine guns kicked in his front and back door. He was grabbed from his bed, handcuffed and taken to the front yard in his underwear. His house was completely ransacked. They dumped out every drawer, dumped out every container (including flour, suger, oil, every container) onto the floor. Every switch plate was removed from every wall. Every duct was opened. The plumbing was opened. Every nook and every cranny of his house was taken apart and searched.
During the search they found approx. a dozen pain pills which did not have a perscription.
My friend was taken to jail.
He had to make bail and get a criminal attorney.
Since he was charged with a felony, he lost his job pending the outcome of the trial.
Since he didn't have the money to defend himself (legal fees) he pled guilty to possession of narcotics and was released on parole. He is now a convicted felon. He can't vote, he can't own a gun. And, there are very few jobs he can get.

This is a lot closer to what is really going to happen with ATF than them going in and giving a fine.
You are ruining these people's lives.
I know your feelings were hurt when they didn't care what you said, but that isn't any reason to do this.


I notice your signature talks about you questioning the government and all that. You are one of these guys that complains about the government until you want their services, then you step right up expecting them to do your bidding.
It doesn't work that way.
Once the genie is out of the bottle, you have no control over it.
You may have only wanted to get back at them for not listening to your expertise the other day, but a lot more than that will happen. And you will have nothing to say about it.

Please, I know that men don't like to back down. There has been some bumping of chests and marking of territories.
You don't have to say another thing about this on this board. You can tell us whatever you want to. You don't need to back down. I will tell you right now that you win. I will even tell you are 100% right if that is what you need to save face. But please, don't do this. If you have any concept of the Golden Rule or any decency please don't do this.

Cacique500
April 30, 2006, 06:58 PM
I would bring it up with the owner only and leave the ATF out of it.

I purchased a Colt Officers model online and when I was function testing it I discovered that the hammer fell when the safety was snicked off. Fortunately the gun was unloaded, safe direction, etc...but had I taken it to the range (or loaded it in the house) I could've had a very nasty and potentially dangerous situation. Turns out the guy I bought it from was an armchair gunsmith and 'forgot' to mention he had 'worked on it a little'.

We're all pretty saavy when it comes to firearms - my concern is that the someone buying the rifle is *not* as saavy as your average THR'er...could be a very dangerous situation.

Not out to save the world but I think in this case it's worth a few minutes of your time to take it up with owner.

ingram
April 30, 2006, 07:36 PM
You are so naive and ignorant on this subject that it is truely scary. I wish, really and truely wish you understood what you are talking about. I feel at a loss because words cannot express how foolish you are. Your arrogance is incredible. People are going to pay a HUGE price for your arrogance and you will go along totally ignorant of the real situation. You will pat yourself on the back because of your arrogance

Yes, this indeed helps solve the problem, kudos to you.


Bad, unsafe gun sellers are not any friend of 2A defenders. They're no different than people who sell beer to kids and get the liquor laws tightened as a result, punishing the lawful sellers. And defending them, rather than having them knocked into line, only hurts the good ones in the long run.

Very true. The ATF doesn't need to get involved but something should be done about the gun. If you talk to the owner about it and he blows you off, I can give a rat's ass what happens to his business after that, he needs to take responsibility. Talk to the owner first chance you get. Contemplating a call to the ATF before you've talked to the owner seems unnecessary.

wheelgunslinger
April 30, 2006, 07:53 PM
It's not your problem.
But, to make yourself feel better, talk to the owner about the weapon. And, while you're talking to him, ask him if it's OK with the BATFE&NinjaMasks for a dealer to sell a weapon that's malfunctioning.
After that, do what you think is right.
He's sowing his own karma, so let him reap the benefits.

Joey2
April 30, 2006, 09:56 PM
How about this for a senerio; The SKS is a trap to see who buys it by the BATF. If you buy it to make it semi-auto you are placing yourself out on a limb that can be sawed off.

Try explaining to the BATF that you were doing a community service to the public by making the SKS legal.

repsychler
May 1, 2006, 09:11 AM
444, I'm a little confused. You say that the ATF raided people with broken guns "thousands of times" yet the only example you give is a tale involving Russian brides and pills, and absolutely no guns or ATF agents.
Can you cite 10 cases (out of the "thousands") of the ATF violently raiding someone with a malfunctioning gun?

Kramer Krazy
May 1, 2006, 11:13 AM
Wow......I am so surprised that some of you know all of my motivations behind posting this thread in the first place. Some of you have given me motives that never crossed my mind. As for some of these overly creative thoughts on my motives, you should write a book because you have quite an imagination......

Why did I post this here? Easy, I know that the gun is not functioning the way it is intended/designed and I am a bit concerned about an unsuspecting buyer getting it and not checking its function before loading it. I am no expert, but I have a good idea how to tell whether a firearm is functioning correctly or not, and owning two SKSs, I am a little familiar with them. As for a firearm going into FA, well.....I'll plead the 5th on this one.......

Why involve the BAFT? I wrote that poll option when I probably should have worded it as "local authorities or the BATF". Sure, I can't make anyone do anything they don't want to, but selling a firearm like this, without stating that it is malfunctioning, just isn't the right thing to do nor is it of THR. I wrote the original thread asking people here.....people with more experience in such situations......for their opinions before I opted to do anything about it.

End result, to date.......I never went back to the store on Saturday and haven't done a follow-up. I have no intentions of buying the gun. My State Trooper friend has not gotten back with me on his opinion of the situation, and absolutely no one on this green earth, other than myself and my wife, has any idea where this shop is (and I consider "local" to be within a two hour drive...you go ahead and try to guess which shop it is).

Now, for some of you that think I'm out to destroy a person's livelyhood, take away more rights from gun owners, and want to brag about how great of a person I am and how knowledgeable I am......go back to your bomb shelter, eat your MREs, and have a nice day. :neener: I just wanted some opinions on whether I should pursue this any further or drop it. Next thing you know, you're going to make me out to burning the Constitution and voting Rosie Odonell as President. :what: :D

444
May 1, 2006, 12:51 PM
Thank you.

One thing you might also want to think about.
If you went out today to drive to work and your car stereo didn't work, would you call the FCC ?
What about if your TV presented a dangerous condition where someone might get electrocuted, would you call the FCC ?

If the people on this thread are interested in a safety issue then why would you call ATF ? Where did you get the idea that they come out and inspect used guns for safety issues ? The ONLY reason to call them would be to turn them in for a criminal activity. ATF is a law enforcement agency. As far as your local police ? Firearms law is a federal matter. Broken or malfunctioning used guns arn't a law enforcement matter at all.

repsychler, I can understand your confusion. You must have missed the first sentence of that story where I said "Let me give you a sort of related example. This wasn't the ATF, but the result will be the same." You must have also missed my other post where I had already cited two of the biggest: Ruby Ridge and Waco. Both events involved the ATF attempting to enforce the National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA) which is the same law being discussed here in this thread. I also cited an article in this month's SWAT magazine: May 2006 issue (should be on your local newstand) page 32 "Boot the BATFE ?" by Claire Wolfe. It is obvious that many people on this thread have not heard of the many, many cases of ATF abuses that have been going on for decades so it is good that you ask. I am not going to cite any more cases, they are easy enough to learn about. If you are a member of the NRA, the magazines they publish (American Rifleman, and First Freedom) deal with this issue in pretty much every issue for the last 20-30 years. Those sources should get you started. I hope you show enough interest to do a little research on the matter. This is essential to understanding what we are up against in the fight to keep our guns.
I am truely amazed that there are some gun owners who are interested enough in guns to get on this board, who also have no problem dispensing advice, who have no idea of things like the ATF.

Here is a case that was recently being discussed quite heavily in the on-line gun forums. It is NOT a case of kicking in doors, but it might give you an idea of the type of people we are dealing with. http://www.nraila.org/CurrentLegislation/Read.aspx?ID=1956

Here is another case that is similar to the example I posted earlier that was questioned because the LE agency wasn't ATF: This one is the ATF. This guy is a police officer who bought a gun as a gift to a woman. He was accused by ATF as making a straw purchase. As you see, his life was basically runied. http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=%5CNation%5Carchive%5C200603%5CNAT20060329a.html "After he was processed as a federal prisoner, Lara was released on his own recognizance, but now was unemployed and the recipient of intense media scrutiny, awaiting his day in court."I lost over $216,000 in saving and earnings. I had to refinance my home to help pay the bills and the attorney's fees," Lara recalled. "Three months after my arrest, my case went to trial. At the end of the trial, the jury deliberated less than one hour before finding me innocent of the charges."Lara would wait two more months for his badge to be returned to him. But the ATF prosecution did not end when he resumed his police career."On my first day back to work I was given a 40-hour suspension without pay for 'criminal activity' because I had been indicted," Lara continued. "My professional career is shot. It's now been three years after the event and I am still a patrol lieutenant. It was made clear to me when I returned to work that I would never see any advancement."

Again, this stuff is real easy to find. Do a search.

Carl N. Brown
May 1, 2006, 01:22 PM
If you went out today to drive to work
and your car stereo didn't work,
would you call the FCC ?

The 1934 National Firearms Act is not regulatory law:
read the popular title: "Gangster Weapons Act." It is
criminal law and people fingered and arrested as
violators are federal, criminal felons.

Calling ATF over a broken gun in a pawn shop would
be like calling the FBI over a broken windshield wiper
in a car lot: unnecessary overkill.

The pawn shop needs to be told the gun is broke
or badly worn in its fire control safety, ,
it is dangerous, if it misfires on a purchaser they
could be called held accountable in court.

Dang. Perspective. Porportion.

El Barto
May 1, 2006, 02:35 PM
You go into “Ray’s Pawn” and see what you believe is an unsafe firearm and doing what you feel is best, bring it to the attention to the person watching the store. But she appears to not care. You want to ensure that an unsafe rifle is not sold so you want to call the Gov’t. Now the Gov’t SHOULD be there to help, but as with most LE agencies, your call will be a “complaint” and will open a file on this small business. The Gov’t says, “Hmm, Ray’s is selling illegal assault rifles. Let’s see what else they have been doing over the last 10 years”. This will open them to more scrutiny and I am sure that more violations will be found. If you look hard enough, you will find that no one is 100% legal, 100% of the time. And remember, pawn shops have the stigma of being on the fringe of law abiding anyway. This is the kind of hassle that will make store owners rethink having a business.

Other view: Mr. and Mrs. Ray get a little hungry one day so they have daughter Ray watch the counter while they go to McBurger. Daughter knows nothing about guns. Her expertise is in used jewelry. Mr. Customer comes in the store and after browsing quietly asks to see a gun. Daughter is cautious because pawn shops tend to attract unsavory characters and she hasn’t made up her mind about this gentleman yet. After playing around with the gun, Mr. Customer tells Daughter that she is selling is illegal and needs to get fixed. She doesn’t know what this guy is talking about but she will probably mention it to Mom and Pop. After all, she doesn’t know this guy or can be sure what qualifications this guy has and feels lucky that he didn’t load the thing and shove it in her face.

Mr. Customer comes in another time and pretty much insists that Mrs. Ray take the gun off the shelf. Is he buying it? No, he wants them to take it off because it might be dangerous. Mrs. Ray may feel a little threatened because this guy came in earlier and made a fuss and now he is back making a bigger fuss. All she hears is “Hi, you are selling an illegal gun and you need to put it in the back. If you don’t it will kill little kids”.

What should have happened: You notice what you think is the malfunction. You let Daughter know that there might be a problem. She doesn’t care so you go back and speak to Mrs. Ray. You explain to her that you have owned several SKS rifles and are familiar with how they work and you think that one of their’s may be broken. You tell her that you enjoy coming in to Ray’s and wouldn’t like it if they got sued because some idiot bought the gun and didn’t notice the problem until he killed his wife. You say “I would like to help, so here is the card to my favorite gunsmith and he will check it out for free”. Or you buy the gun, fix it, clean it up and resell it for a profit.

Should you call the Gov’t?

Yes, if you want to make the “Ray’s” lives hard and give the Gov’t a reason to keep their tactical units fully funded. The anti’s love to read how the local Swat team raided a store and got another assault rifle off the streets and how easy it would have been for any 18 yr old kid to buy the evil thing.

No, if you want to be a decent human being. Don’t just point out the problem, help with the solution.

444
May 1, 2006, 03:02 PM
"Calling ATF over a broken gun in a pawn shop would
be like calling the FBI over a broken windshield wiper
in a car lot: unnecessary overkill."

I am not real good with words but this is pretty much what I have been trying to get across now for the last several days.
Calling ATF for anything is IMO the same thing as saying, "If my baby crys again, I am throwing it in a wood chipper".
That is the magnitude of how excessive this is.
They don't just come and give you a ticket for having a broken used gun.

repsychler
May 1, 2006, 04:10 PM
444:

Once again you are long on typing and short on proof. I'm not trying to apologize for anything the ATF has done with respect to Waco, Ruby Ridge or any other example you've cited. But the simple fact is you have not been able to produce a single example (out of an alleged "thousands") of the ATF violently raiding someone over a malfunctioning gun.

Oh, and this isn't about calling the FCC because your radio is broken. It's about calling the FCC because Radio Shack is knowlingly selling radios that violate FCC regs.

I agree calling the ATF is overkill, but doing nothing might put the kill in underkill.

chas_martel
May 1, 2006, 04:21 PM
I vote other.
The is a poorly worded poll, it presumes that you should "do something".

And I have no doubt whatsoever why we are losing. Here we are on a board
where most members "claim" to value liberty, yet none would
recognize liberty if it hit them upside the head.

And I am not even talking about the MG aspect of the question. That is
not the important part of this thread.

AJAX22
May 1, 2006, 05:06 PM
If it were me, I'd probably buy the gun

Its a saftey issue and a matter of civil duty.

Most of us who are here probably feel a strong urge to do the right thing, and to help protect both the life and liberties of our fellow man. We're here because we view firearm ownership as esential to that protection.

Viewed in that light, I don't think its right to turn these people in. Yes, they are irresponsable. Yes, they are either ignorant or they are jerks. But if we want our role to be that of a protector we cannot involve an organization who's function is to punish the transgressor, not educate the ignorant.

If you buy the gun and throw the broken parts away infront of them. You have a better chance of getting through to them, than having jackboots kick down there door and eliminating one more firearm dealer from the community.

Im pretty sure that there are other people out there who have bought a gun just to keep it out of the hands of someone who was reckless and irresponsible. other people must have bought guns just to get unsafe arms out of circulation.

An accidental death, aside from the inherent tradgedy, adds one more stone to the slings of those people who would forcebly separate us who are responsible from our posessions.

My first gun, a single shot bolt action .22, was purchased not just because I had always wanted one, but because it was in regular use even though it was unsafe. It had a badly worn trigger and would discharge if you looked at it wrong. I felt good when I repaired it and kept one more gun in this world safe and in responsible hands.

Just my two cents,

444
May 1, 2006, 11:31 PM
repsychler, as I said before, I am not going to provide any examples. You have all the tools you need to find them yourself.
The questions you ask make it painfully obvious that you arn't reading the posts on this thread.
It is obvious that you still think that ATF is the home fix-it guy, or a meter maid. You think that someone calls them up about a broken gun and they come out and investigate and issue tickets. For the uptenth time, this isn't going to happen.
HOWEVER, if you call them up ATF and tell them about a store selling a gun that is capable of full auto fire they arn't going to come and investigate a malfunctioning gun, THEY ARE GOING TO SEND A TACTICAL TEAM TO INVESTIGATE THE POSSESSION AND ATTEMPTED SALE OF AN UNREGISTERED MACHINE GUN. You arn't going to hear it reported that they were investigating a malfunctioning gun because they don't do that. They respond to criminal acts.
So, you can continue to play word games with someone else. Or, you can look into reality on your own using that computer right in front of you.

azflyman
May 2, 2006, 06:56 AM
I am not quite as rabid as 444 but to think the ATF is anything other than jack booted thugs would be a major mistake. They may not kick in the door with a strike force but the owner would definately be taken into custody for questioning and anything that went "bang" would be siezed IMO. This is no light thing. Being ex-DOJ gives me a bit of insight. What exactly would happen would be up to the whim of the agent taking the report. It could be anything from nothing or a simple confiscation of the gun (if the wheels turned fast enough to get there before it was sold) to arrest and confiscation of all property owned by the owner.

Crap shoot at best.

az

repsychler
May 2, 2006, 07:29 AM
444:
repsychler, as I said before, I am not going to provide any examples. You have all the tools you need to find them yourself.

Ahh...*I'm* supposed to prove *your* bogus claim that the ATF has violently raided thousands of people with malfunctioning guns.
I looked, and didn't find any. Which is odd, since there are "thousands" of examples out there.

StuckInMA
May 2, 2006, 10:29 AM
El Barto Wrote:
You go into “Ray’s Pawn” and see what you believe is an unsafe firearm and doing what you feel is best......

I won't quote your entire post EB, but I think it's about the best response to the original post/actual thread I've seen so far. Right or wrong, you've pretty much summed up my thoughts exactly.

444
May 11, 2006, 09:33 PM
Wow.
I thought stuff like this never happened.
ATF are just nice friendly guys that we should go running to if we have a malfunctioning firearm.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=199971

Some of you guys really need to punch in on reality.

"We found out that there was a broken and worn part inside the gun that allowed this to happen, that this was a malfunction and as a matter of fact, it is a malfunction that occurs regularly with semi-automatic firearms and it needs to be looked at and repaired by a gunsmith. Some of the more amazing things that this gentleman who claimed to be an expert said: he was from Firearms Technology Branch, we found out that he worked in imports and I thought he was truly incompetent at the time. He admitted that he didn’t even disassemble the rifle to find out why it was doing this, what it was doing, but since it had more than one shot go off with the pull of a trigger, it was a machine gun."

Quaamik
May 11, 2006, 10:35 PM
I can see why it would concern you.

But as to the options listed:

- buy gun and repair
Your setting yourself up to be busted if it's a sting, and possibly even if not if found with it.

- call local authorities
Local authorities might make a friendly visit, or might make a headline grabbing raid for publicities sake. After calling them, you will not be the one deciding which they do. At the least, you are setting up that gun dealer to possibly lose his license and a lot of money in legal fees.

- call ATF
Likelyhood that ATF will respond with 1 agent and a fine / warning? ZERO
Likelyhood that ATF will respond with 30 agents, tanks, tear gas and incindearies, killing anyone related to the shop owner and imprisoning anyone who survives? UNLIKELY, but still possible.
Likelyhood that ATF will close dealer, imprison dealer and bankrupt business and family? APPROACHES 100%

- go in and talk to owner
Might work, depends on if he believes you, or just thinks you want him to drop the price. It also depends on if he thinks he can fix it.


Now here is my suggestion.
Check to see if the gun is still there and hasn't been repaired. If so, record the serial number and write (type) the owner a short letter. Address it to the owner by name if you know it, to the business if not. In the letter, explain the issue you found with the gun (identify by serial number), your concern, his potential liability, and suggest having it checked by a competent gunsmith. Save a copy of the letter.

At that point, you will have gone far above what could reasonably be expected of anyone. If someone is ever hurt by the gun, you can feel secure that you did your best to prevent it.

And if you hear of a news story that someone had a gun that "went full auto" and hurt anyone, you can contact that persons defense attorney and see if you can be of assistance.

10-Ring
May 12, 2006, 02:25 AM
Report it to local LE...Like I've said, "No good deed goes unpunished!" You did your due diligence w/ the shop, leave the responsibility w/ them.

Carl N. Brown
May 12, 2006, 11:01 AM
Reporting a malfunctioning rifle to ATF is not like reporting a
defective propane stove to the consumer protection agency:
it is like reporting the possessor as a criminal felon to law
enforcement. Porportional?

nramember2
May 13, 2006, 12:56 AM
for it to be full auto it has to fire more than one shot with one trigger pull. the way you stated it the trigger wouldnt reset. sounds like just a broken gun. and a dangerous one at that. tell the people that it is a possible lawsuit and the gun will dissappear real quick. or offer them a minimal amount of money, buy the thing, have it repaired.

chrisbob
May 13, 2006, 05:03 AM
I know some one with a sks 1991 norinco while I was shooting it it miss fired I pulled the trigger & 2 to 3 bullets shot just like an auto but I shot it many times over the next couple of years with problems I broke it down and examined it carefully I could not find any deffects.

deadin
May 13, 2006, 11:24 AM
I don't think the "malfunctioning" firearm is the real subject here. I think the question is if the owner of the shop is going to do anything about it. If he is made aware of the problem and chooses to do nothing, doesn't plan to fix it, doesn't even intend to inform a prospective buyer that there is a problem, then he deserves to lose his license an whatever other s**t happens.
As a consumer, I have a right to expect a certain level of honesty and compentency when dealing with a "professional". And believe me, anyone with a FFL and a storefront qualifies as a "professional". I don't expect this when dealing with Bubba at a gun-show or in the Little Nickel. (That's a case of let the buyer beware.)
If a "professional" knows a gun is dangerous and chooses to conceal the fact, that's criminal. (IMHO tagging it as "AS IS" and then playing dumb if asked what's wrong wih it, doesn't remove his responsibility if he knows it's a danger.)
If he's too stupid to know that certain malfunctions are dangerous, he shouldn't be licensed to sell guns in the first place.
Concealing non-dangerous defects (leaving a barrel dirty to conceal a bad bore or ringed barrel, etc.) is merely unethical and a buyer would have the right to not shop there anymore.

Dean

albanian
May 13, 2006, 02:24 PM
Why don't you just go back and take a small part out of the gun to disable it? Don't get caught. I don't see anything morally wrong with doing that if it is to protect someone else. If someone buys it, it won't work and they will return it. Maybe it will get fixed then.

Dacoda
May 13, 2006, 04:51 PM
would you really wanna be the one who buys this thing, not knowing of it's problem. bringing it home, loading 10 rounds into it, closing the bolt, and watching it slam-fire all 10 rounds into your wall, tv, dvd player, fridge, etc... and praying that no one else is in the line of fire? I'm not sure how old this thread is, but I'm SO hoping you reported this problem.

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