[hartzpad]

Did some informal trap shooting with a mechanical slinger with some neighbors yesterday. One of them claimed that his O/U shotgun was appraised at the local Cabela's at $25k!!!! I called BS right from the start, why would he take it shooting?

I don't know O/U shotties, he claims it is a Beretta ACS-II (or ACS-2) Gold Series, one of only 20 imported to the U.S. and that his is the 21st imported but no one knows about it because his is not "registered" :rolleyes: because it was given to him by an Italian friend while he was on a hunting trip here in the U.S. He also claimed that his father competed in trap in the 1984 Olympic games, this Beretta shotgun he brought did have the Olympic rings symbol. I didn't see any of the fancy engraving that you normally see on $5000 shotguns and he kept it in a Perazzi shotgun case, not a Beretta case. This guy is just BSing about it being worth $25k, right?

This guy also said that he has to shoot highly-specialized 12 gauge shells with graphite shot in them so as to protect the blueing inside (hahaha) the barrel. He was using some kind of Fiocchi ammo that he said came from the U.S. military, case was marked U.S. Small Arms and no Fiocchi on the outside, only on the 25 round boxes inside.

He loved shooting my Saiga 12 gauge and AK's but kept asking me why I hadn't made them full-auto because "it is so easy to do so", I replied that I would like to keep my butt a virgin and didn't want 10 years in Federal Prison. He said that in Montana (where he is from) you can do whatever you want and no one cares if you make a full-auto. Ah huh.

I hate people like this.

[rdbrowning]

I can't confirm nor deny your neighbors story, but I did get the opportunity to go pheasant hunting in England in 1993. I was offered my choice of two O/U shotguns and I picked the $16K one because I figure if something happened to it I might have a chance of paying it off in this lifetime. The other was valued at about $40K and I was afraid of touching it, much less carrying it in the rain.

There are some folks that can afford VERY expensive toys and aren't afraid to use them.

Or maybe he is just telling tall tales.

[hartzpad]

this guy works in a call center and lives in a small apartment.

But I guess it is possible.

[Mikee Loxxer]

This guy sounds like an obvious BS'er. I know someone who has as $12,000 shotgun, but then again it is a Krieghoff so that makes sense.

[High Planes Drifter]

It is certainly possible. I've seen o/u Parrazi's (Spelling?) in catalogs for over 40k. Cant see why in the heck someone would want to take a 40 thousand dollar anything in the woods to shoot birds smaller than chickens; but they do.

['Card]

It's a founding principle of conservative thought that nothing is worth more than what someone is willing to pay for it.

No estimate of value really matters. No lineage, history, or background matters. It doesn't matter how much something cost to make, and it doesn't matter how much the current owner paid for it. That's why the vast majority of these 'value' claims are meaningless. You can own the coolest, niftiest, sweetest, rarest, deadliest gun ever, but unless someone is willing to pony up the loot and purchase it for a specific amount, you can't honestly claim that it's worth anything.

[hartzpad]

What I want to know if what you people know about the Beretta ACS-II (or ACS-2) Gold Series

[win71]

I suppose there are Berettas around worth that much but when you consider all the other garbage he fed you I'd say it's more than total BS. Non the less I think you should contact your neighbor and tell him you did some research on that special Beretta and Cabelas is trying to screw him, it's worth a minimum $46,000.00.

[Justin]

List of medals awarded for shooting in the 1984 Olympics. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_at_the_1984_Summer_Olympics)

1 Luciano Giovannetti, Italy 192
2 Francisco Boza, Peru 192
3 Daniel Carlisle, United States 192

Note: It's possible that he has a relative who competed, but did not medal.

[waterhouse]

I called BS right from the start, why would he take it shooting?

While I know nothing about the shotgun in question, I wouldn't call BS just because he was shooting it. There are some people that hunt with more expensive shotguns than that.

This might get more responses in the shotgun forum . . .perhaps one of the resident experts can enlighten us. I did a quick google search and found nothing.

[220_Swift]

I suppose it is possible for it to be valued at $25,000. Here is one from gunsamerica for $22,000. Did it have extremely beautiful wood? Or did it resemble this at all in terms of overall looks?

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976328962.htm

And Like someone else already said, you can't know the actual value until you try and sell it. I could say the stapler on my desk is worth $400, doesn't mean anybodey would pay that much for it.

[Dave McCracken]

Beretta's ASE series were fine shotguns. Some came in extra fancy versions that sold for more than $25K. There were more than 21 of them. The niche is now occupied by the DT10s.

Beretta makes an SO series that is all custom built to order. Prices on those are rather upscale.

I've shot a few $25K guns through the generosity of friends. Mostly Purdeys and a Fabri. They bust clays just like an 870.....

[45auto]

Beretta has/had an ASE-90 series which is a popular competitive shotgun that was in the $5-$6,000 for a plain model. Wood upgrades can increase the cost by a $1,000 or more, etc.
It has since been changed a bit and renamed to the DT-10 for the US anyway.

There are models available only in Europe and are not formally imported into the US, although they can be "had" if you want them. That might increase the "value" a bit, if consumers want them.

The "SO" series start at $15,000 I believe and go up from there...quickly with increased engraving and wood.

[dfaugh]

Well, ya never know...A good friend brought me some guns that belonged to her father (and his father before, and maybe even longer) for a "quick and dirty" appraisal...All were in rough shape from improper storage, and 3 weren't worth much at all, even if they'd been mint....

The fourth however, turned out to be an L.C. Smith, model A-1, made in 1898. They produced a total of 738 A-1s from 1892 to 1898. I actually found one other for sale--for $18,000. Unfortunately hers, while in better condition than the other guns, is far from pristine. It had been sitting in a closet gathering dust for at least 30 years. Anyway, sometimes things happen, and he MIGHT be telling the truth..

But, based on some of his other statements, I'd be real doubtful...

[thumbody]

I called BS right from the start, why would he take it shooting?

When I was about 17 I was hunting pheasants and ruffed grouse with a highschool friend. We were joined by a long time aquaintance of his father who had been coming up from the Detroit area for over 30 yrs to hunt with my friends father and grandfather. He brought a friend with him that if I remember right was a doctor. He was carrying a beautiful Browning O/U that made me drool. I have no idea of the model or value but I know I will never be able to afford anything like it. As we headed to the woods I asked him how he could take something that nice and valuable into the heavy brush we were about to enter. He replied "I have been fortunate to make enough money to be able to afford some nice things but I won't buy a gun just to look at it . If I am afraid to use it I wont buy it."
As a young country boy I was still a bit amazed that he would risk getting it scratched. But I later realized it was just a thing. A very nice thing that he enjoyed using. He was probably in his mid 70's or older and In a few years he wouldn't be able to get out and hunt any more,but he would still have the memories of taking his favorite gun and carrying it in the woods.I don't think the memories of looking at that fine firearm hanging over a fireplace mantel would be recalled as fondly.
So if his gun was what he claimed, why not shoot it he might as well get some enjoyment out of it.

[ApexinM3]

Hartzpad,
The gunshop I work at P/T sells highend trap guns, some of which are stickered at $23k (Kolar, I think). Others are $16k (Krieghoff), but most are in the $3k-to-$5k (Beretta, Browning) range. I asked why they were so expensive (I know black guns...) and was told it has to do with the amount of hand fitting, engraving, and quality of wood. A few other factors are involved, but those are the main ones. It's quite interesting, actually, because in a lot of ways they are like fine watches. I'd never pay that much, but then again if I had the money to burn I might be singing a different tune.

In all likelyhood, your buddy is blowing smoke, but it IS possible.

[RNB65]

I love the bit about the "highly specialized graphite shot". Graphite is a form of carbon and it's used for many things, but shotgun shot isn't one of them. However, all lead shot is coated with graphite to keep the pellets from sticking together.

Call his bluff and ask to see proof of the gun's value. See what kind of excuses he comes up with.

[redneck2]

Or, you could just let it go. No biggie one way or another if he's right or wrong. If this is your biggest problem in life, you don't have problems.

Calling someone a liar, particularly when you don't know the truth, isn't a particularly valuable virtue

If you call him a liar and you're right, what have you gained? If you're wrong, you look like and idiot and a jerk. Let it go.

[444]

Paying that kind of money for a shotgun is easy. That wouldn't even be an expensive one.
I was taken to a gun shop near Pittsburgh about 15 years ago. I don't know the name of it, and could never find it on my own. The place didn't look like a store and wasn't in an area with other businesses. The store's merchandise was about 99% shotguns and they had hundreds in inventory. I don't think I would be wrong in saying that they might have had over 1000 shotguns in inventory. I was told that the cheapest shotgun they had was over $1500. The guy I was with owned a couple over and unders that cost in the $3k -5K range. His dad owns at least one shotgun that he is trying to sell used for $60k and he has fired thousands upon thousands of shells out of it in big money trap shoots. (FWIW, my friend was there to buy a Mec reloader).

I am honestly not trying to imply anything here, but you obviously don't run in circles where people spend money on toys. If that guy would have told me that I wouldn't have doubted him for a second. Hell, I paid over $40k for my pickup truck and drive it off road, why wouldn't he shoot a $25k shotgun ? What is going to happen to it ? I have seen guys fire one of a kind double rifles. We have a gun show here that sells shotguns and rifles for well in excess of 100 grand. Why is this shotgun such a big deal to you ? This may just be because I live in Las Vegas, but I wouldn't have been surprised if he told me he paid that much for his watch. I know a guy that has three Maxim belt fed machineguns sitting in his garage with all the other junk he has lying around. Each one of those is worth way more than that shotgun.

Point being, he may be FOS or not. But, it wouldn't cause me to raise an eyebrow if he was for real. The thing with the shells sounds kind of ridiculous to me, but you never know.

[pete f]

I have a good friend, who hunts all the time with "daddy's guns". One is a 12ga with a second set of barrels, from H&H, I have seen similar guns selling for over 50K He hunts pheasant with that gun. His grouse gun is a fancy Darne. maybe 10K. He does not baby these guns but he treasures that on every hunt "Dad" is with.....even tho he passed on maybe 20 years ago.

As for your buddy, It would seem to be a weak story, but not worth getting into a pissing match over. Maybe his dad told him that story to prevent him from getting rid of a treasured piece. Maybe he needs to believe that his daddy would spend that much on himself. Who cares. The guy likes you enough to let you shoot his $25,000 shottie, why argue.

[ATAShooter]

Well, I'll say this... You can pay 25,000 or even 250,000 ..... But if you can't hit crap, it's useless. At ATA shoots, there has been many a time I have seen a mossberg 500 shooter whip a Perazzi shooter. The guns are nice, but skill is the key. The rules only say how many birds you break.... not what you do it with.

[444]

True enough.
By the same token, the best trap shooters are NOT using Mossberg 500s.
There is nothing wrong with owning nice guns. There is nothing wrong with buying the best gun in the world, even if you can't shoot worth crap, just because it is what you want to do and it makes you happy. YOU are the only one that can make YOU happy. If you have the dough to buy nice stuff, why wouldn't you ? After all, it IS your money to do with as you please.
I shoot in a local match with a guy that obviously has big money. Everything about him screams money. He shoots an unbelievably gaudy, obnoxious commemrative gun (IMO). It doesn't run for crap and he can't shoot for crap. He is easily the worst shooter there. The gun cost less than this shotgun we are discussing, but way more than a good used car. He is happy with it and he has fun at the match. That is all that really matters. What the internet peanut gallery thinks doesn't. Should he shop at Walmart just to please someone else when he doesn't have to ?

I am also a big believer in the idea that having good equipment helps you shoot better sooner in your shooting career. Fighting poor equipment is the hard way to learn.

[albanian]

"I've shot a few $25K guns through the generosity of friends. Mostly Purdeys and a Fabri. They bust clays just like an 870....."

SO TRUE! That is so true it is not even funny. A shotgun is a smooth bore tube made for sending a bunch of lead shot in the direction it is pointed. Once you get beyond a well made barrel and choke, there is nothing that can be done to make it shoot any better. They can fit you better and balance better but unless it is custome made to fit YOU, it may not feel any better than a $700 Ruger Red Label.

I understand the love of fine things but I also like to get something for my money other than pretty wood. A rifle that can shoot 1/2" groups at 100 yards would be worth some extra cash because it does something that a $600 Remington can't do but a $25K shotgun that shoots the same as a cheap shotgun doesn't make sense to me. I like preformance not just beauty. For $25K, you should get both!

[444]

Before you forget.
You need to let the US Olympic team know they have been wasting their money.
They don't need those expensive shotguns to shoot trap.
And to think, they didn't figure this out for themselves.
If only they spent more time on internet gun forums they could have saved themselves from all this.

[Dave McCracken]

Rein thy choler, 444. This is a friendly discussion.

Nobody ever won the Indy 500 in a Corvair. At the same time, not everyone wants or needs a vehicle which costs half a million and runs best at 150 MPH or more.

We have made our weapons prettier as long as we have made weapons. I delight in the fine finish and great wood on my TB, and it's glad I am to find an 870 that looks that good and works that well. And I love the eye candy the Geezers bring to PGC on Fridays.

In a given day, I might shoot with folks with Purdeys, Parkers and Mossberg bolt actions. I'm more concerned with safety and fellowship than make or money needed.

If I hit the Lottery, I'd pick up some more nice shotguns. Meanwhile I have lots of fun with the ones I have.

[PJR]

If you don't understand the differences between a cheap and more expensive gun extend far beyond just "pretty wood" then enjoy shooting the cheapest gun you can find. The target doesn't know how much your gun cost only whether the pellets are on the mark.

There is a reverse snobbery when it comes to higher grade guns on these forums. We regularly read about a hapless Perazzi owner being beaten by someone with a Mossberg but I have very rarely seen it happen at the range.

You'll never make a mistake buying the best gun you can afford. I've struggled with enough guns to know why my Perazzi was worth every dollar I spent.

[albanian]

I am not saying that you don't get anything for the extra money besides pretty wood but unless the gun is made to fit YOU, buying a $25K shotgun may not make you shoot any better than a $200 shotgun. Olympic shooters have the guns made to fit only them, they are custom all the way. It is all about fit and balance not really about improvements in actual shooting preformance.

Take an 870 and put it in a vise and shoot it next to a $25K shotgun and I bet there isn't enough difference in how the guns shoot to be able to tell anything. It is how it feels and fits your body that you pay for. That is my point. The fact is, I am good with a shotgun and I prefer pumps because I have the most trigger time on them. I am not good enough to be able to feel that I would get my money out of a $25K shotgun in performance. I wouldn't be able to break any more clays or be able to shoot any faster with it. That is my point, not that there is no place for a $25K shotgun. My point is, 99% of the shooters would never need to spend big bucks on a shotgun to really improve their scores.

It is like everything, the guy that practices the most is the best. It is not the equipment, it is the shooter. Better equipment helps but more practice and skill will always trump an expensive gun. When I shoot trap or skeet, there are always guys that have high dollar shotguns that can't shoot and there are guys with basic shotguns that are expert. Most of the time, as people progress in skill, they see an advantage to spending more money to get better equipment but not always. It is the same when I shoot Bullseye. I have seen guys with almost stock hanguns outshoot the guys with the custom high dollar guns. In fact it seems that that happens a lot. You can't buy skill.

[PJR]

We agree that gun fit is most important and part of a custom gun is getting a stock that fits you. With an 870 either you're lucky enough to fit their usually awful stock dimensions (for me anwyay) or have to spend money getting the gun altered.

It is also true you can't buy skill unless you are spending that money on targets and shells. But a better gun will help you improve your skills faster and take you places your skills alone can't take you. I shoot better with my Perazzi than any gun I've owned previously.

Let's discuss a hypothetical wager. We go to a randomly selected clay target club and select two teams. I'll take the first ten shooters that walk in with Perazzis, Krieghoffs, Kolars, higher-grade Berettas and guns in a similar range. You take the first ten shooters who come in with pump guns. We'll have them each shoot 50 skeet, 50 trap and 100 sporting targets. The loser pays the winner $10 per target.

Would you take that bet? I know I wouldn't.

[444]

Very well put.
People love to root for the underdog.
People that can't afford the nice stuff try to conceal their envy by saying their stuff is just as good.

There is no question that if you take the best trapshooter in the world and hand him an 870 you just bought at Walmart, he will smoke most anyone that wants to shoot against him.
BUT, that shotgun probably wouldn't be his first choice.

"Take an 870 and put it in a vise and shoot it next to a $25K shotgun and I bet there isn't enough difference in how the guns shoot to be able to tell anything."
I don't know about the vise and all that. I am not any kind of shotgun guru, but I know there is far more to an expensive shotgun like that than just nice wood. I own a couple defensive type shotguns with Vang barrels in them. They shoot a tighter buckshot pattern than a factory Remington barrel. That means I can shoot buckshot farther with the same effectiveness. And, this can be proven by anyone by patterning the gun. I know that the backboring and all that is similar, if not the same as some of the work done on custom trap guns. Barrel work designed to shoot tighter, more consistent patterns.

There are a lot of similar thoughts expressed on this board. In almost every case, it is all or nothing. EITHER you can own an expensive gun, OR you can have the skill set to be a good shot. For some reason the people making these arguments can't admit that there are a hell of a lot of people that have both. They shot bone stock, out of the box guns for hundreds of thousands of rounds and eventually treated themselves to a nice custom or semi custom gun.

[oletymer]

Very good 444. We think alilke.

[Dave McCracken]

There are folks who have both fancy guns and expertise. I know quite a few. Most would still be hard to beat if they just had pumps.

But, if I can only have either expertise or upscale artillery, I'd rather have expertise.

And that cannot be bought, it's earned with sweat and committment.

[sm]

:D

Interesting thread to say the least.

Folks buy a Benchrest gun, a Race Gun, have custom Flyrods, spinning rods, baitcast rods, appreciate a high dollar custom knife, wear Pateks...high dollar shotguns.

They do because they can. They appreciate fine craftsmanship, fit, attention to detail, pride of ownership...

Funny how some will spend $200 on a knife to clip on pocket, and buy an import knock off shotgun to save a few bucks..., and defend these choices for THEM.

Matter of Priorities.

Now I know folks, with high dollar shotguns...

...and I used to run with some folks, some now dead.

I happen to be last living member of a original group of Outlaws, Mustangs , Rebels...whatever...we had a heck of a lot of fun, serious fun.

Not unusal to see a High Dollar shotgun out in the brush for quail, dusty farm for quail...See one might pay $1 to $100 for each miss, just having fun...

Not everyone has seen a Bently, a Jag, or Limo come down a dusty farm road for a dove shoot- must less a muddy, rutty farm road to the duck blinds.

I like the day the wifey had the Limo come down,and in her expensive clothes shoot a few doves, bring some catered food out to us, and said she would see us that evening for steaks...

I'm thinking of one guy that for an anniversary got a custom Kreighoff, $75K set up, always wanted one, he could shoot, his wife could shoot...He toted it to bust doves...

But funny as hell to see him take an old worn Model 42 , his wife toss $500 in a hat to "sweeten the pot" and him run 100/100 shooting doubles against the low spark of high heeled boys trying to buy skill and targets using 12 ga guns...

I had a C note in that pot, and I was holding onto his "tractor watch", a 18k Yellow Gold Patek, with a Nylon strap. Nylon straps he bought for a $1 a pc.

Sweat shortened the life of leather watch bands, so his other Pateks he wore sported leather, he did not wear a watch while shooting clays...but piddlin' on the tractor, on the property, or hunting birds, he wore his "tractor watch".

Matter of Priorities, cannot take it with you when you die...why not?

I miss some folks, but I gots memories...

[444]

Well, this thread has certainly strayed way off the reservation.

I am still wondering why this guy thinks his friend is a liar.
If the guy said that he got the shotgun from a three fingered grey at Area 51, then I would be skeptical. But this ?

[Euclidean]

It doesn't concern me in the slightest that there are firearms out there which cost more than I make in a year or 10 years. As a matter of fact I'm glad they exist, I'd hate to think everyone was as poor as I am.

What does blow my mind is there's so many of them. They are everywhere and lots of people have them. I doubt very much the guy was lying, but I don't know him personally.

Seriously, I know and know of several people just personally who own a 10k+ dollar shotgun.

I read this board and there's so many people who post here with these incredibly expensive guns, and that's just the <1% of people who own these guns who care to discuss them on this forum.

I must be doing something wrong.

It does make me a little depressed/envious sometimes to realize so many people can afford nice things like that at their whim and leisure and I can't, but I guess that just makes me human.

[TrapperReady]

Here's a brief and incomplete list of activities which make even expensive shotguns seem like a good deal:

1) Auto racing
2) Motorcycle racing
3) Having kids
4) Buying a summer home
5) Flying airplanes
6) Buying a bigger home than you can afford
7) Not carrying medical insurance at the wrong time
8) Screwing around on your spouse
9) Leasing your cars
10) Drinking too much and/or too often
11) Smoking a couple packs a day
12) Screwing around on your spouse**

The fact of the matter is that lots of people spend lots of money on lots of different stuff. As far as shooting goes, I use myself as my own benchmark. If I feel that I've done as well as I can, then I'm satisfied... regardless of what other people have done, and certainly regardless of what they shoot.

Concerning yourself with what others are doing/shooting/saying/etc is simply another way to distract yourself from the task at hand... which should be to break the bird(s) you are about to call for.

** BTW, I listed this one twice, because it is possibly the single most costly thing a person can do.

[redneck2]

One of the things that's hard to imagine is the difference in income a few years and a few ex-wives makes. At 55, I could go out today and write a check for a $1,000 gun and not blink. Hasn't always been this way.

I've had two (ex-wives) that could go thru money faster than a shipload of sailors could go thru beer.

On more than one occasion, guys have posted here about not being able to afford a certain firearm. Almost anybody here can get any reasonable firearm if they want. That's if they haven't spent the money on something else, or are willing to obtain the skills or work ethic to make more money.

If you don't piddle away your money on cars, toys (bikes, boats, snowmobiles, ATV's) and get your house paid off and monthly bills to nearly zero, you can get pretty much whatever you want. For example, I drive a 1999 Jeep with 210,000 miles for my daily sales job. It's paid off. My wife has a Jeep that's 4 years old and nearly paid off. The payments on these two were $1,000 a month. I can get a really nice new gun every month or make two payments for vehicles someone else will own in a few years.

For anyone that's on the short side of 50, read the above list and take heed. Wise words.

[45auto]

Overall, I think the person was mistaken about the price. It sounds like a $5,000-$6,000 gun. The highest price "competitive" gun most anyone will see will be the Beretta "SO" series and that's $15,000. It's hand built with side locks. Which is why Beretta introduced the ASE series gun. They needed a "step up" from their 680 series, but one that would sell much cheaper than the SO and compete with Perazzi. I would be amazed if Beretta sold more than a couple of hundred SO's worldwide in a year...if that.

Olympic trap and skeet require a lot of two shots with fast targets which lets out pump guns. Not that you can't do it, but it's a disadvantage.
You will see autos, but not many and almost none in trap.

[albanian]

"Folks buy a Benchrest gun, a Race Gun, have custom Flyrods, spinning rods, baitcast rods, appreciate a high dollar custom knife, wear Pateks...high dollar shotguns.

They do because they can. They appreciate fine craftsmanship, fit, attention to detail, pride of ownership...

Funny how some will spend $200 on a knife to clip on pocket, and buy an import knock off shotgun to save a few bucks..., and defend these choices for THEM."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hear what you are saying but the point was not if a gun is ever worth $25K but if a $25K shotgun is any better than say a $2000 shotgun in terms of use.

There is a point when you don't get one bit more utility out of a gun or knife no matter how much extra you pay. I can afford almost any gun or knife I want because I make a good wage and so does my wife. We don't have kids and neither of us are in debt. If I wanted to go out and buy a $1000 knife, I could. I won't because I am a user of things first and a collector second. When I look at a knife or a gun, I look at it from a practical point of view not based on what will impress the guys at the trap range.

There is a point in knives when you don't get any more preformance. It varies of course with the make and model but most of the time $100-400 will get you a knife that will do 100% of what a $2000 knife will do. I am not talking about the law of diminishing returns, I am talking about a knife that will do everything just as well except maybe look pretty.

[PJR]

I hear what you are saying but the point was not if a gun is ever worth $25K but if a $25K shotgun is any better than say a $2000 shotgun in terms of use.
Not necessarily $25K but the performance differences between a $2,000 (Beretta, Browning) and a $10,000 gun (Perazzi, Kreighoff, Kolar) are definitely there and I've owned guns in both categories.

What you pay for in any gun is the cost of the materials and the time of the people who made it. If the gun costs more it is because the materials are better and there is more handfitting involved. What you get is better handling, more durability, barrels properly regulated and spectacular trigger pulls compared to the $2,000 gun.

Where the cost of a K or P-gun goes much beyond $10,000 is when IMO you enter into the realm of "non-shootable assets" primarily hand engraving which does not enhance your shooting whatsoever but is very expensive.

[444]

I see this whole argument (totally off topic) to be the same thing as the argument about cars.
Why would you buy a BMW when a Pinto can do the same thing. You want to drive to work, either will get you there. Both can drive at any legal speed and all that.
That is all crap.
The minute you drive get in the BMW you know the quality of materials and quality of manufacture is light years ahead. When you drive it, you understand that there is a significant difference. It isn't all just looks, in fact, the paint job and all that isn't all that different.

Bottom line: Some people don't enjoy high performance equipment. Some people like to marter themselves. Some people can't afford the real nice stuff so they take out there class envy on those that can. Some people can't just let everybody else let everybody else alone.

[ATAShooter]

444... Oh, I agree whole heartedly, you look at the tolerances in a Perazzi, Kreighoff, or Ljutic and DEFINITLY, the quality is there.... And those tolerances can make differences in a pattern, and lifespan of the gun. Also, production line guns are made so that they are semi-fitted to the general population, where as the high end guns are custom fitted, which for DARN sure makes a difference. The statement I posted earlier that I had seen a moss 500 shooter beat a P gun shooter was just a general statement that I had seen it done. But if you shoot a high end gun, the tolerances, fit, ect gives you more advantage weapon wise, because you are like 1 with the gun. And anyone that can afford it, I say go for it, that's the way to go. By no means did I intend for anyone to think that I meant that a high end gun was a waste of money, I apologize if that's how it was taken.

[blaydeman]

theres a place in south dakota called dakota arms that makes expensive long-guns. i have a friend that used to work there.
http://www.dakotaarms.com/currentinventory/dakota_arms_inventory.php?sortBy=price

[albanian]

"I see this whole argument (totally off topic) to be the same thing as the argument about cars.
Why would you buy a BMW when a Pinto can do the same thing. You want to drive to work, either will get you there. Both can drive at any legal speed and all that.
That is all crap.
The minute you drive get in the BMW you know the quality of materials and quality of manufacture is light years ahead. When you drive it, you understand that there is a significant difference. It isn't all just looks, in fact, the paint job and all that isn't all that different.

Bottom line: Some people don't enjoy high performance equipment. Some people like to marter themselves. Some people can't afford the real nice stuff so they take out there class envy on those that can. Some people can't just let everybody else let everybody else alone."
==========================================================

444,
What is with all the crying? "Some people can't just let everybody else let everybody else alone" Nobody is stopping anybody from doing anything. We are all having a conversation where we are debating issues with class. Why is it that you can't seem to play nice?

If it is bothering you so much, don't read it. I bet you are one of those people that write letters to the T.V. stations and complain because something offended you. I bet you watch the shows that offend you every week just to make sure they are still offending you so you can keep writing your letters.

Everybody else seems to argue points with some skill but you keep going back to your same old story about some people can't afford 25K guns and they must be mad at those that can. The fact is, some people want to shoot there guns and not stoke them and look at how pretty they are.

As for the difference between a BMW and a Pinto, that is just retarded. They don't even make the Pinto anymore so who would even own one? What are you going to compare, a 30 year old used Pinto with a brand new BMW? The point I was making that everyone else seemed to grasp except you is not the difference between a Pinto and BMW but the difference between a BMW and a Rolls Royce. The Rolls is not going to prefrom any better than the BMW, it is just going to have the extra money spent on things that do nothing for the speed, handling or safety of the car. I think we all know that a $200 shotgun is a basic gun and is not going to be anywhere near as nice as a $25K shotgun and won't prefrom as well. A $2000 shotgun is probably going to do everything the $25K will do it just won't have as nice of wood or engraving.

[TrapperReady]

The fact is, some people want to shoot there guns and not stoke them and look at how pretty they are.


Albanian - It's been my experience (shooting registered sporting clays) that the two are most definitely NOT incompatible. I often shoot with people who are shooting guns in the $10K - $30 range. The $10K ones are relatively plainly finished. The more costly ones have remarkable wood and nice engraving. ALL get shot a lot.

I think the mistaken assumption that gets made around here is that if you spend a bunch of money on a gun, you won't shoot it enough to become proficient. From what I've seen, that attitude is completely bass-ackwards.

If you ever pick up a copy of the Double-Gun Journal, you'll find all sorts of examples of old and expensive guns. In many instances, the bulk of the stories deal with the lengths the owners go through just so they can shoot them.

[45auto]

I think there is a "bell curve" of "quality" in O/U's.

There is a huge difference in quality and performance of "cheap" O/U's compared to the $2500 Browning/Beretta. When you compare Perazzi's and Kreighoff to the Brownings, for example, the quality gains are much less...and I have also owned all of them. You could make a good argument that the Kreighoffs are not "worth" the $6,000 difference. Meaning championships have been won with all the above mentioned guns and high quality shooters, that shoot a lot, shoot all of them. But, the Kreighoff feels like a Mercedes and the Browning like a Toyota. If you can appreciate the difference and you think you shoot it better, then it's worth the money. But neither gun is more reliable than a Browning and I haven't seen or heard of anyone that wore out any of the guns... that couldn't be rebuilt. You will rebuild a Browning sooner, but at a third of the cost also.

The major difference, IMHO, is the "feel" of quality, of being hand built to a degree, the choice of options and, without a doubt, the service levels of the high end. Perazzi, in particular, excels at this. This is what "high end" is all about.

[444]

albanian
On this board, there seems to exist an attitude about people who own nice gear. It is assumed that just because someone buys nice gear that they are all show and no go. And my response to that is, Don't judge a book by it's cover.
This thread is only the tip of the iceberg. If you go to the rifle board, you will see similar sentiments expressed about the guys shooting magnum cartridges, especially if it is one of the new short mags or ultra mags. In fact there was a recent thread about buying these cartridges as a substitute for hunting skill. Appearently you can't own a state of the art cartridge AND have good hunting skills. Go to a discussion about AR15s. You will see the attitude experssed that if you have any "gadgets" (optics, light, tac sling..........) then you are just a gadget hound and you don't know what you are doing with that thing. Then we get into the tactical gear, the stuff Pat Rogers calls "Cool Guy Gear". Obviously if you buy all the cool gear, that means somehow that you can't shoot.
A common variation on that theme is almost always brought up just as it was in this thread by Dave. If I had to choose between nice gear and skill, I would take skill. Ok, but who said you had to choose between the two ? I am sure that very few people would argue that they would rather have skill than a nice gun. But assuming one exists without the other is just simply judging a book by it's cover. You are making an assumption about a person based on appearances.
But what would it hurt if you bought any of this stuff the first day you started shooting ? You buy real nice gear, and start practicing hard, working your way through the ropes so the only thing you have to worry about is your skill and your equipment is not holding you back. Is that something to be looked down upon ?

[BigG]

Same idea with watches. Some guys a $10 Casio is enough. Others, a $15,000 Rolex or other high roller brand is just enough. The two mindsets are pretty mutually exclusive, if the Casio guy really believes he's got something. JMTC

[Gordon]

Here here Big G and 444 !;)

:banghead:

[TrapperReady]

OK, specific example time:

I currently shoot a Browning 425 O/U. It has been tweaked professionally and by me to ensure the fit is perfect. When I purchased it, the cost was around $1400 and it's had several hundred dollars of work, plus a few hundred more in extra choke tubes. For arguments sake, let's say I've got $2500 into it. This gun has been rock-solid reliable and I shoot it very well.

However, there are a few things I dislike about it. First of all, the receiver height is high enough and blocky enough that it feels kind of like a brick. The barrels weigh a bit more than I'd like, and I'd like a little more length to them. Even with the fit fine-tuned, it's not pleasant to shoot anything above 1oz loads. The trigger is inertial and sometimes won't reset on extremely light loads. Perhaps most importantly, the grip doesn't fit my right hand very well.

So, at some point (probably within the next few months), I'm going to order another gun. It will be a Kolar, and all of the things I dislike about the Browning will be remedied. Furthermore, I can order it with a second set of barrels (a carrier set), which will allow me to use sub-gauge tubes and have exactly the same handling characteristics as when I shoot the 12ga barrels. This gun will fit me, not just in stock dimensions (LOP, drop, cast, etc), but in every detail. For example, the grip will be carefully crafted to fit my hand exactly. The angle at which I hold the stock will be completely natural.

870s are great guns. I own and shoot several. There are any number of mass produced O/U shotguns (in the $2000-$3000 range) which are outstanding. But, they don't directly compare to the higher-end guns... and the differences run well beyond wood and engraving.

[ALHunter]

Two weeks ago I was in a local gunshop. They had a line of Blaser shotguns. One had a price tag of $26,000 on it with a "SOLD" ticket below it. Never heard of Blaser shotguns before. If I can hit even 80% of the birds at the sporting clays course with my Franchi semi-auto that a guy with a $26,000 Blaser can hit, then for me it is not a good use of money. To each his own. I respect most expensive guns for their quality of craftsmanship and beauty, but I've got 4 kids to put through college. No way I can or would fork over that kind of dough for a gun.

[BigG]

ALHunter - if a guy to whom $26,000 is the same as $250 to you - would you begrudge him a $26,000 shotgun?

[TrapperReady]

ALHunter - if a guy to whom $26,000 is the same as $250 to you - would you begrudge him a $26,000 shotgun?


Or, if your house is worth $150,000, do you understand why someone would buy one for $176,000? Or why someone might have a $26,000 Harley? How about travel trailers? It's easy to spend $26,000 on one... and within a few years, the depreciation will eat up almost all of that.

As I said in a previous reply, people spend money on all sorts of stuff. I know people who've spent around $25,000 on a wedding. Heck, at least a $25,000 gun is going to last longer than one day and have some significant resale value.

Rarely will I make judgements about how someone else chooses to spend their own money (Precious Moments "collectables" and hideous lawn ornaments being a couple notable exceptions :) ). All I ask in return is the same consideration.

[ALHunter]

BigG and TrapperReady:
I think my post wasn't clear. I applaude anyone who can afford and does buy those great expensive guns. At the most basic level, it stimulates the economy. For the buyer it gives great pleasure. For us non-purchasers who see them at the range, at the gun shop, or at a friend's house, it gives us something of beauty to admire, and for some, to long for.

What I was trying to convey is that (1) I personally don't have the money, nor ever will, to buy one of them; and (2) my shooting isn't great, and I don't get enough time to practice/enjoy it, so for me a gun like that would not be a great investment.

I've spent plenty on admittedly stupid things in my life. That's why I said "to each his own." All I ask is that if we strike up a conversation at the skeet range or the sporting clays course you let me attempt to crack a few clays with such a fine gun. Afterwards I'll buy you some barbecue and a cold tea.

[TrapperReady]

All I ask is that if we strike up a conversation at the skeet range or the sporting clays course you let me attempt to crack a few clays with such a fine gun. Afterwards I'll buy you some barbecue and a cold tea.


You can count on that! :) I've had the pleasure of quite a few folks letting me try their guns, and I am always wiling to pay that forward.

Frankly, a huge amount of this thread is probably just a reflection of the limits of internet-forum communications. Were we all sitting around the clubhouse after shooting a few rounds, I'm sure it would be way less contentious.

[BigG]

That would be a pleasure, ALHunter, and TrapperReady! I figured you were not trying to be snobby. I also do not have $26,000 to burn, but can conceive of a time that I will. I probably won't be buying an ultra premium shotgun, as that isn't my main love, but some kind of ultra premium gun might.

I am particularly fond of handguns - commercial Lugers, Colts, S&Ws, etc. You can run up into bucks on a few models of those. And don't forget those H&H double rifles, with the panatela-sized cartridges. And full autos ... :uhoh: :eek: :neener: :)

[PJR]

Frankly, a huge amount of this thread is probably just a reflection of the limits of internet-forum communications. Were we all sitting around the clubhouse after shooting a few rounds, I'm sure it would be way less contentious.
So true but I wouldn't call this contentious. Spirited perhaps.

Now if we were all together in the clubhouse I'd take albanian aside hand him a box of shells and my Perazzi and we'd go to the line. He could find out for himself whether the gun is worth the extra money. This is what Perazzi owners do to ensure there are future Perazzi owners for our used guns.;) I've hooked three new Perazzi owners that way.

I'd be bugging TR to learn when his new Kolar was coming. They are great guns.

Of course McCracken would be sitting in the corner with a smile on his face, holding his 870, having kicked all of our behinds. :D

[TrapperReady]

PJR - I'll let you know when it's ordered. We're waiting to see how a couple things shake out right now. If all goes well, I'll be placing my order before the end of the month.

Perazzi was also on the short list, but Kolar's plant is literally 2 hours from my doorstep and I've been very impressed when they worked on the guns my wife and I currently shoot.

[Terrierman]

We are not in the same league here, but when I was growing up, I used to go squirrel hunting with a friend who happened to be the son of the preacher where we went to church. His dad let us borrow guns from him. The one I normally picked was a 16 gauge SS Winchester Model 21. It was a different world then and once we asked and got told OK and didn't screw anything up, permission was permission, no check the guns in or out or anything like that. I used that gun a lot over a couple of years and really got to like it. At the time I had no idea whatsoever how lucky I was.

[Sir Aardvark]

My friend has a couple Krieghoff's that he shoots sort of regularly.

He said that one of them cost him $12,000.00 many years ago and you could tell just by looking at the wood on it that it was an expensive shotgun.

The other one looked similar to the first, but had a lot more engraving on it; my friend wouldn't tell me how much that one cost, only that it was more than the first - I think he was kinda embarrassed about it costing so much.

[albanian]

"Frankly, a huge amount of this thread is probably just a reflection of the limits of internet-forum communications. Were we all sitting around the clubhouse after shooting a few rounds, I'm sure it would be way less contentious."

I think you are right. I am surprised at how often things get blown out of proportion on the net. Someone says something and someones else rips them for it and all of a sudden there is a flame war. If the same thing had happend in real life, it would have got a good laugh and almost never have turned ugly. Jokes and smart remarks that are funny in real life sometimes just sit right when they are on your computer screen and you feel the need to flame back to defend yourself against what you see as a personal attack. It gets really silly and I try and avoid it but sometimes I get caught up in it.

I really don't care what people spend their own money on, I never would tell people that they can or can't buy something. I was trying to argue a point not trying to tell people what they should buy. If someone wants to spend $25K on shotgun, it is fine with me. All I was saying is that for me, I can't see where the $15,000-$20,000 goes in terms of preformance. I have never owned a $25K shotgun so I can't imagine.

I think everybody has a limit to what they will pay for preformance and my limit is probably lower than some. I am a bargin hunter at heart and I am looking for the best bang for my buck. I would rather have a really nice $2K shotgun and spend the other $23K on other guns.

[KC&97TA]

Yeah, I'd trade my $300 shottie for the $30k shottie that the old guys take up to the local trap range... after 4 rounds of trap I'm sore and I'm looking at these 70 year old men laughing at this 'young buck' getting beat up by his own equipment.

[harrydog]

Haven't been around here lately and just stumbled upon this thread.
The guy with the $25K shotgun sounds like he could be a BS'er but on the other hand, $25K shotguns are not at all unusual.

Like someone else said, I've noticed a reverse snobbery when it comes to expensive things. Guns, cars, watches...you name it.

The law of diminishing returns does come into effect as you move into the high dollar shotguns. But that doesn't make them any less desireable to many people. There are plenty of people who laugh at the thought of a $3K or $4K custom 1911 when you can buy a Colt or Springfield for $500. They're missing the point though. There certainly are differences and they're not all cosmetic.

Does a $50K Patek Philipe keep better time than a $10K Jaeger-LeCoultre or a $5K Rolex? No, but that doesn't make it any less desireable to those who appreciate those things.

Everyone has their comfort level when it comes to how much they're willing to spend on something. I just hate to see people being put down because they spend much less or much more than others think is appropriate.

444 has pretty much already stated my thoughts on the subject, much better than I could have myself.

[45auto]

I still think there's some confusion on the dollar amounts, like $25,000, on performance in O/U's and whether they actually help your shooting.

If you accept the premise that the "baseline" O/U is @ $2000-$3200(Browning, Beretta 680's) for lot's of shooting and the features you want, then the "high end" competition O/U's are in the $5,000-$8500 range for plain grades depending on the company and model. You decide whether the high end guns are worth the 2-3 times the baseline guns.

Anything beyond those dollar numbers are cosmetic; engraving, better wood, checkering, sidelocks, rare, etc, etc. A good example from a previous post was the Blaser that was bought for $23,000. That's a $5,000 competition O/U from Germany enhanced with better wood, engraving, etc.

It's like buying a sculpture or painting except you get to shoot it. ;) That "ain't" bad if you have the money.

Sidenote: Harrydog, I'm hard pressed to "detail" any functional difference with a single stack, steel 45 1911 past the $2,000-$2500 range. Meaning, I don't think you can make any improvements, short or long term, beyond that dollar amount. It's all cosmetic or "investment" type(rare) name brand that elevates the price. Which is fine, just not to be confused with function.

[harrydog]

Sidenote: Harrydog, I'm hard pressed to "detail" any functional difference with a single stack, steel 45 1911 past the $2,000-$2500 range. Meaning, I don't think you can make any improvements, short or long term, beyond that dollar amount. It's all cosmetic or "investment" type(rare) name brand that elevates the price. Which is fine, just not to be confused with function.

Well, like I said, it's the laws of diminishing returns. You can buy a $500 Springfield, give $1000 to a good pistolsmith, and have something for $1500 that many people will say is every bit the equal of (or even better than) your $2500 Baer or Wilson or Brown. I have a custom Liebenberg 1911 that shoots better for me, has less felt recoil and muzzle flip, and is more comfortable in the hand, than any other 1911 that I've shot. To me, that's function. I can justify the price I paid for it but lots of people probably couldn't.
Everything has a sweet spot where you get the most bang for your buck and I think that is probably the $2000 - $3000 range for an O/U shotgun. Beyond that, there are certainly functional differences, but they can't be justified by everyone. Like you said, there probably are some (but not huge) functional or longevity differences between the $2500 Beretta and an $8500 Kolar. A really good shooter will notice and appreciate those differences. But are there any functional differences between the $8500 Kolar and the $20000 Kolar? I don't think so, and I don't even think Kolar says that there is. There is only so much you can do in terms of better materials and hand fitting to make something work as well as it possibly can. Beyond that it's all cosmetics. I agree with you on that.

[45auto]

Harrydog,

We agree and I covered myself by saying "hard pressed" and "think". You detailed 3 functional items that warranted a higher price on a 1911, no issue there!