(NJ)"Pistol with little metal worries sheriff"


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K-Romulus
April 28, 2006, 03:24 PM
Here we go . . . next up, calls for "enforcement of the plastic gun ban":

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-nj--plasticgun0428apr28,0,2763049.story

Pistol with little metal worries sheriff

April 28, 2006, 10:45 AM EDT

NEWARK, N.J. (AP) _ A pistol found in the car of a drug suspect arrested recently in Newark was made of plastic, so it might pass through a security scan unnoticed.

The unusual find concerned Essex County Sheriff Armando Fontoura so much that he took the Professional Ordnance Carbon-15 Type-97 pistol to Newark Liberty Airport and saw that in a security scanner, it did not look like a weapon

Only the stainless steel barrel was visible. The rest of the weapon _ including the trigger and stock _ did not appear because it's made of plastic.

While weapons like this one are known to police, they do not turn up often.

Though they are plastic, they are hardly toys. The one found in Newark fires .233-caliber ammunition so fast it can penetrate a bulletproof vest. :rolleyes:

"This a nasty weapon," Fontoura told The Star-Ledger of Newark for Friday's newspapers. "That's the ammunition we're using in Iraq. If we're not alert, this could go right past security."

Fontoura said he would warn other law enforcement agencies that drug dealers may be getting their hands on the hard-to-detect guns.

I've never heard of this gun, but it sounds a lot like the carbon-fibre rifles that Bushmaster is selling.

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geekWithA.45
April 28, 2006, 03:27 PM
Sheriffs in NJ are both pointless and powerless, relegated to serving divorce notices and prisoner transport.

And very little of what you put through an airport x-ray machine looks like what it is.

What a putz.

Hacker15E
April 28, 2006, 03:34 PM
This is from American Rifleman, July 2000, about that pistol:

The uninformed may make the false claim that the carbon fiber frame of the Carbon IS makes it "invisible to metal detectors"-as they did with the introduction of polymer-frame hand uns. We photographed the Carbon 15 Type 97 through an X-ray machine to demonstrate that such a claim would be ludicrous. The majority of the Type 97's internal parts are of steel and would be readily detected-provided the machine is turned on and the operator awake.

real_name
April 28, 2006, 03:42 PM
My bare hands are lethal weapons, will they stop me taking them on a plane. Just a thought.

Seriously though, anyone trained in reading X-ray images who can't identify a slide needs to be retrained or re-employed.
And I thought that although the frame is plastic it still shows on the X-ray, the density of the material shows as a darker (or is it lighter) image, just not as pronounced as the metal. If it didn't then bones wouldn't show on X-rays.

http://www.as-e.com/img/popups/101Z02.jpg

MechAg94
April 28, 2006, 03:54 PM
Hacker hit my point. Any gun will pass right through security if they are not careful. They have to actually see it to stop it.

RyanM
April 28, 2006, 03:55 PM
What's with the red highlighting? They got the company wrong. But Carbon 15 pistols do shoot .223 ammo, they do shoot it at a high enough velocity to penetrate a level IIIA (the highest that most cops wear) vest, and that is the same caliber that the army uses.

MICHAEL T
April 28, 2006, 04:50 PM
RyanM So a M1A1 (M-14) will also "they do shoot it at a high enough velocity to penetrate a level IIIA (the highest that most cops wear) vest, and that is the same caliber that the army uses."
What was you point band them Their are many weapons that do this Some are smaller than others Another sheriff want his name in paper. The weapon has done nothing wrong. and is as far as I know legal to own.

Sistema1927
April 28, 2006, 04:56 PM
A New Jersey Sheriff wants to ban guns? Shocking, just shocking I tell you.

(Never mind that only the law abiding obey laws, and that a determined bad guy will always find a way to defeat any security.)

RyanM
April 28, 2006, 05:41 PM
RyanM So a M1A1 (M-14) will also "they do shoot it at a high enough velocity to penetrate a level IIIA (the highest that most cops wear) vest, and that is the same caliber that the army uses."
What was you point band them Their are many weapons that do this Some are smaller than others Another sheriff want his name in paper. The weapon has done nothing wrong. and is as far as I know legal to own.

Uh... huh? What? I recognize the words, but they're not in any order that makes any sense.

Anyway, it seems like the stuff highlighted was pretty pointless. The sherrif actually had the facts more or less straight, other than whether or not it would show up as a gun to someone whose job it is to find guns on x-rays. Now, if he had said something about the old myth that .223 rounds "spin like a buzzsaw through flesh," then I could see a reason for pointing that out and putting a :rolleyes: smiley next to it.

dmckean44
April 28, 2006, 05:51 PM
What about the hammer, trigger, sear, magazine release, takedown pin?? And even if you did have a plastic gun, where the hell would you get the plastic ammunition that you would need to get through an x-ray machine?

exar
April 28, 2006, 06:44 PM
It is highlighted because the author refers to the .223 as a .233, close but...

Hawkmoon
April 28, 2006, 07:04 PM
Any chance this is the same sheriff whose deputies were busted for running up I-95 through VA at 95 MPH, lights flashing, on their way home from hurricane duty after having not slept for 48 straight hours -- and who had the chutzpah to criticize the trooper who pulled them over and let them go with only a warning and a request to slow it down?

NukemJim
April 28, 2006, 07:15 PM
Uhmmm... Oh boy. Several points

1) I am not familiar with that particular firearm so I cannot be specific.

2) Only the barrell showed ? My BS meter is going off her big time. Anything made of metal such as .223 ammo, Magazine springs (I'm assuming the mag spring is metal), firing pin, bolt etc... all would show up on an X-ray.

And I thought that although the frame is plastic it still shows on the X-ray, the density of the material shows as a darker (or is it lighter) image, just not as pronounced as the metal. If it didn't then bones wouldn't show on X-rays.

Actually that is a little bit off. Bones do NOT show up because of density differences ( or at least not primarily) they show up because of their (relatively) high atomic number i.e. the number of protons in the atom. Density is nowhere near as important as atomic number until you get up into high kVp ranges (not sure of range the TSA use but from wathcing the monitors I would hazard a guess that it is still in the diagnostic range of kVp )

Carbon is difficult to see on a X-ray due to a low atomic number that is why the fronts of X-ray cassettes, X-ray tables, and CT tables are frequently made out of carbon fibre.

Also depending on the techical settings on the X-ray machine (kVp, mAs, filtration, anode material, etc... ) and what is surrounding the carbon in question you may or may not be able to see the carbon.

As I stated at the begining since I am not familiar with this firearm I cannot say for sure (the carbon fibre could be made with a "glue" that has a high atomic number so it might show up very well on a X-ray. )

My BS meter is going off, but this may not be as simple as it sounds.

NukemJim
PS No offense to the NRA but I am not certain that they are that knowledgable about radiography.

WayneConrad
April 28, 2006, 07:25 PM
April 28, 2006, 3:05pm MST

NEWARK, N.J. - A sheriff found in Newark, New Jersey was made of plastic, so that it might pass through a test for human rights unnoticed.

The unusual find concerned Fred Smith of Essex County so much that he took the Sheriff to a medical clinic and saw that in an MRI scan, it did not look like a person.

Only the the outer layers were visible. The rest of the Sheriff - including the backbone and central nervous system - did not appear because they are made of plastic.

While law enforcement officers like this are known to the people, they do not turn up often.

Though they are plastic, they are hardly toys. The one found in Newark fires off press releases so fast it can penetrate bulletproof logic.

"This a nasty weapon," Smith told The Pulp-Ledger of Newark for Friday's newspapers. "That's the ammunition being used by our worst enemies. If we're not alert, it could get past our rights and cause real damage."

Smith said he would warn other citizens that law enforcement may be getting their hands on the hard-to-detect plastic Sheriffs.

RyanM
April 28, 2006, 07:56 PM
It is highlighted because the author refers to the .223 as a .233, close but...

Oops. My dyslexia must be acting up again.

NukemJim
April 28, 2006, 08:39 PM
Only the the outer layers were visible. The rest of the Sheriff - including the backbone and central nervous system - did not appear because they are made of plastic.


Also missing was the Digestive system ( No guts ) , Reproductive system ( No B***, however the Sheriff's did have so much gall that his Gall Bladder has been measured and found to be a new world's record for largest.

NukemJim

Standing Wolf
April 28, 2006, 09:50 PM
Pistol with little metal worries sheriff

Maybe we should buy him some artificial finger nails to bite. Heck, maybe we could chip in to buy him some bright pink artificial finger nails to bite. If enough of us chip in, it's possible we could even buy him some bright pink artificial finger nails with brush work to bite.

WT
April 28, 2006, 10:45 PM
Okay, the NJ TV reporter identified it as a "Bushmaster 97 carbon fiber pistol." Basically, it is a chopped flat top AR with a 7.25" bbl, no shoulder stock. It is 5.56 cal and comes with a 30 rd mag. Bushmaster's list price is $970.

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/carbon15/az-c15p97.asp

It is not permitted for sale in NJ except to law enforcement agencies.

They put one in a briefcase along with other stuff and ran it thru an X-ray machine for the TV crews. The clutter pretty well hid the metallic parts except for the bbl which looked like a piece of pipe.

Neat piece. It would be great to carry on a sling under a raincoat.

Get one now before they are banned.

Hawkmoon - different sheriff.

grimjaw
April 28, 2006, 11:40 PM
WayneConrad, CLASSIC! APPLAUSE! :D

jmm

Spreadfire Arms
April 29, 2006, 03:57 AM
Professional Ordnance Carbon-15 Type-97 pistol ... I've never heard of this gun, but it sounds a lot like the carbon-fibre rifles that Bushmaster is selling.

yes. Bushmaster bought out the original manufacturer, Professional Ordnance, of Arizona. if it is an older model it is probably stamped Professional Ordnance.

The weapon has done nothing wrong. and is as far as I know legal to own.

my assumption is that the weapon was seized pursuant to a drug arrest, as the news story reads "A pistol found in the car of a drug suspect arrested recently in Newark..." seeing that he was arrested for a dope charge the firearm possession is also probably illegal (possession of a firearm in the commission of a crime).

K-Romulus
April 29, 2006, 10:52 AM
I highlighted the stuff in the article for two reasons:

1) the name of the gun, to point it out

2) what the sheriff said/author wrote because I thought those were put in there in that way to be intentionally inflammatory. (I actually missed the ".233" thing)

"so fast it can penetrate a vest" = any rifle bullet, from at least .22-250 on up. Savage makes pistols that shoot those calibers, pistols perfectly legal in NJ, but I don't see that tidbit mentioned in the article

"nasty weapon" = another way to say "nobody hunts with this" as if that is relevant to anything

"ammo we are using in Iraq" = another way to shoehorn the "weapons of war" meme into the article

Maybe I'm just sensitive or something, but as someone else here at THR likes to say, I can't stand anti-Second Amendment bigots, which the author and the sheriff both appear to be from the tone of the article.

ajax
April 29, 2006, 01:39 PM
K-R I couldn't agree with you more.You hit that nail on the head so hard it went through the wood and is now stuck in your toe.:)

Trisha
April 29, 2006, 02:14 PM
NukemJim, thanks for the huge grin this morning! Standing Wolf, I didn't know those press-on nails were still around - y'think we could send a nice supply of 'em to the NJ sheriff (maybe with a Halloween skeleton, to reinforce what's missing in his)?

:rolleyes:

Trisha

carebear
April 29, 2006, 04:20 PM
The Carbon-15 came out years ago, it's older than quite a few of our current posters.

Glad to see it presented as a new threat.

Think the authorities will discover the Hunnish compound bow is x-ray translucent next?

sm
April 29, 2006, 06:13 PM
No offense to NJ members, my comments are aimed at the NJ anti 2A bigots.

XRays. Good points made above. One gets training in Human Anatomy and Physiology , along with Radiation and other studies in order to READ X rays.

Now someone that was Trained in this area, later trains others...
In a sense keeping the species alive...[Rad techs]

NJ anti-gun in positions that be, need to Xray their tallywhackers and gonads, kind of difficult to tell what these are on a Xray...
Maybe if they use the same thinking as used in regard to guns- they will ban tallywhackers, and gonads in respective anti 2A .gov jobs, and this species of anti second amendment bigots will die off.

Use Enough Curies

rangerruck
April 30, 2006, 05:24 AM
this is a very misleading story. they can see the outhline of your tennis shoes, they can make out a gun's profile, as long as the screeners are awake and on their correct meds.

erh
April 30, 2006, 10:25 AM
Luckily, it had plastic low density rounds loaded in it as well... They're FOC!

Eric Howland

antsi
April 30, 2006, 05:31 PM
-----------quote-------------
What's with the red highlighting? They got the company wrong. But Carbon 15 pistols do shoot .223 ammo, they do shoot it at a high enough velocity to penetrate a level IIIA (the highest that most cops wear) vest, and that is the same caliber that the army uses.
-----------------------------

I am very wary of all the whoop-de-doo being made of any caliber that can penetrate body armor. I have seen Ted Kennedy do this on the Senate floor as part of his pitch to ban .30-30. The gun grabbers and the media are working to implant the idea in the uninformed public's mind that a firearm able to penetrate body armor is a rare and extremely high power weapon that should be banned.

Jim K
April 30, 2006, 10:38 PM
They said the same thing about Glocks, and a lot of nutty cops and fake "security experts" got their time on TV saying the same stuff this anti-gun weirdo is saying. Needless so say, the Schumers of the world will now kill hundreds of people by running over them in the stampede to the TV cameras.

The security is better lately, but I once passed through a checkpoint at Reagan-National where the woman was chatting with a friend and had her back to the screen. I could have smuggled a Thompson SMG past her.

Jim

jerkface11
May 1, 2006, 10:59 AM
I don't see how only the barrel could be visible. What about the bolt? All the springs? The magazine? Even the ammo.

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