[MrBigStuff]

I was bored the other day and did some experimenting with a .25 Beretta Jetfire and a Kel-Tec .380. .25 vs .380 from similar barrel length--almost no difference in power in my book. Used Speer GD's, Winchester FMJ's, PMC FMJ's, and Hornady XJP's. Shot into 1 1/2 inches of wood ( whatever wood is used as support beams for your average house) covered by a 2 layers of denim and fired through a pillow (to reduce the sound). A large History book was used as a backstop.

***All aforementioned FMJ's ( from both guns 3 of each type) penetrated into the book slightly beyond the cover. The .380's marginally deeper ( very marginally).

*** The Hornady's ( 3 from each gun) didn't make it out of the wood, but when I broke the board to recover the bullets, I found that they had expanded big time. The .380's expanded slightly more but the bullet trajectory ( the path of which the bullet went when inside the wood) was on par with the .25

*** The Speer's offer much less expansion across the board. None of the .380's penetrated out of the wood and the expansion was almost non-existant. All .380's bullet path's inside the wood were eradic ( probably a good thing if used for defense). One .25 penetrated through the wood and embedded itself ito the backstop's cover. The 2 other .25's acted as FMJ's and came very close to exiting the wood ( if fact they both broke through the back of the wood and were visable).

Not the most scientific study, but if a .25 and .380 are the same size and their performance is nearly equal ( especially penetration wise), why not chose a gun that holds 9 rounds as opposed to seven?

[Clipper]

...Next time I'm attacked by a tree I'll be sure to pick up a .25? You're comparing apples to oranges. Wood is not flesh, and I'd rather be shot by a .25 than a .380 any day, given the choice. In fact, I'd use a .22 shooting stingers before I'd ever consider carrying a .25...

[444]

I agree with you.
The actual effect on a bad guy of the various handgun cartridges is very similar. The difference between a .25 auto and a .380 auto would be so small as to be inconsequential.

[MCgunner]

.25 vs .380 from similar barrel length--almost no difference in power in my book.

Your book is flawed and you delude yourself. :D No matter how you measure effectiveness, energy or momentum, bullet mass, bullet diameter, penetration, Marshal/Sanow stats, whatever, the .380 has it all over the .25. This is not to say it's a powerhouse or anything, but between the two, there's no real comparison. The .25 is even inferior to some .22LR loads. The .380 is my basement defense caliber and I'd really rather be carrying something bigger.

[1 old 0311]

You can get 6 shots off faster with a .25, but that is really all I can say for it. The .380 I have faith in. The .25 less so. If tou feel safe with it, good for you. Confidence is a big factor in a conflict.

Kevin

[StrikeEagle]

I agree with you.
The actual effect on a bad guy of the various handgun cartridges is very similar. The difference between a .25 auto and a .380 auto would be so small as to be inconsequential.


With all good graces I must ask... you're kidding, right? :)

BTW, I LOVE .25ACP and mouseguns in general. I actually reload .25 regularly and enjoy it. (1.2 of Red Dot topped by 50grn FMJ bullets) I like handling the tiny little jewel-like components. I love firing the rounds in my Jetfire or better, my Baby Browning. It's cute as can be.

And... it's "A Gun" for those times and places were NOTHING bigger will do.

But... it's smaller, slower, lighter than .380. By a LOT.

.380 actually makes a reasonable small game round if you have a pistol that delivers the accuracy. But .25ACP... you REALLY believe that's enough for a bunny or a squirrel?

No flame intended... just had to speak my piece. :)

StrikeEagle

[gulogulo1970]

I wouldn't carry a 25 ACP over a 380, but that is me.

[MCgunner]

BTW, I LOVE .25ACP and mouseguns in general. I actually reload .25 regularly and enjoy it. (1.2 of Red Dot topped by 50grn FMJ bullets) I like handling the tiny little jewel-like components. I love firing the rounds in my Jetfire or better, my Baby Browning. It's cute as can be.

Wow, you must be masochistic or have really tiny fingers. ROFLMAO!:D .380 is pain enough for me.

[StrikeEagle]

Wow, you must be masochistic or have really tiny fingers. ROFLMAO! .380 is pain enough for me.

Well... I admit .25ACP makes for a different kind of reloading! :)

It needs special funnel, and a special reloading tray. Each charge has to be weighed of course...

So it goes slow... 200 rounds in a longish evening is a lot. :)

Work like this is good for the soul.

But all the cases are polished and shine like gemstones. The rounds just look great when they're assembled. ;)

StrikeEagle

[444]

No, not at all.
I have seen several hundred people over the years that had been shot with handguns up close and personal. Most of them were a real big disappointment if you are one of the people who discusses this subject endlessly.
You would be hard pressed to look at a bullet wound, or the condition of the patient and decide if he was shot with a .25, a 9mm, a .45 ACP or whatever handgun.
I get a laugh when people try to disect this to the point that they think there is going to be some realistic difference in the field between a .25 and a .380. Or between hollowpoint x and hollowpoint y.
We are talking about something like the difference between Maxwell House coffee and Folgers coffee. Yeah, some super hardcore coffee drinker might be able to tell the difference. But the difference is so small as to be inconsequenstial.
There are acutally people on this board that will argue that a 5.56 NATO is totally inadequate for shooting people then in the next breath argue about something like the difference between a .25 and a .380. The difference between the wound from a 5.56 and any popular defensive handgun cartridge is night and day. If the 5.56 isnt' enough, no handgun should even be considered.

[MCgunner]

Well... I admit .25ACP makes for a different kind of reloading!

It needs special funnel, and a special reloading tray. Each charge has to be weighed of course...

So it goes slow... 200 rounds in a longish evening is a lot.

Work like this is good for the soul.

But all the cases are polished and shine like gemstones. The rounds just look great when they're assembled.

StrikeEagle

So, I'm reading this and thinking, better him than me...:D I didn't even think about the powder charge. No way to drop that with a measure. Sorta rules out the progressive, too.:banghead:

Now, then, you need to get you a 50 grain round nose mold and start casting your own bullets. A pound of lead would last forever. LOL!

[MCgunner]

444 I've cleaned deer shot with both the .357 magnum and the .44 magnum and I can tell you I was pretty impressed with the wound channels on those calibers. Neither were hollowpoints, either. Now, I doubt I could have found either the entrance or exit (yeah, right) holes on the .25. Actually, I really, really doubt I'd have found the deer! He'd probably live a nice long life with a little itch where the thing hit him. :rolleyes:

I understand what you're saying about the 5.56mm hypocracy, though. I have noticed that, myself.

[sm]

444,
Great posts!

See personally I respect 444's post because of his work, and his many hours of training he has shared with us.

I too have been in the medical profession, the Main OR. I have seen the body and listened to the victim with multiple gun shot wounds. We could NOT tell the .380s from the .38spls, from the 9mm from the .45ACPs "wounds", once we got inside him and retrieved them, we could better tell.

Interesting these recovered bullets did not always match what Ballistic Gelatin shows, or what the box of ammo "said" nor the Internet. Too many variables.

My observation and those of some shooters in the OR? Sure seemed like how critters and game recovered bullets appear, and when I mentioned how some appeared like some ctgs I had shot into the "Scientific mud/dirt test", Surgeon and others agreed.

Now we are supposed to avoid trouble , and leave if trouble shows up. Still we take personal responsiblity for ourselves. Each person is different in what they shoot best. Some cannot shoot .357 out of a Revolver, while other can with the same make, model and everything, for them .38spl work best.

Quick accurate hits, have a gun, and the idea is to Stop an Immediate Threat.
Best to do this out of contact range, do not let the BG in personal space.

We did the organ harvest on a guy, his demise was a busted 40 oz beer bottle to Cartoid Artery, bled out before EMTs arrived...one of the nastiest wounds I ever saw.

Have also done the harvest because a .22 short hit the aorta, aortas like carotids do not react too well getting damaged...

I find it interesting folks tote the NAA .22 mini revolvers, I like them as well, there is a place for these...

The Jetfire in .25 ACP is a gun...that little rule about "have a gun".

These are easy to tote, have great triggers affording quick accurate repeat shots, easy to maintain with the Tip-Up Barrel, which also makes it real easy to do Admin tasks. Drop mag, Tip-up Barrel, remove ctg, and real friggin' easy to see the Jetfire is clear of any ammo.

Beretta should have never dropped the Jetfire or Minx [.22short] in my opinion. These fill a niche very very well.

Now one can get the Beretta 21A in .25ACP or .22lr. A bit thicker than the Jetfire.

Now...

Your wife or daughter and attending the Theatre, a banquet in a little black dress. Would it not be nice to know if they were in the restroom, outside getting some fresh air,anything- they had a Jetfire .25ACP affording quick accurate shots to stop an immediate threat?

Matter of shot placement and Lady Luck, some folks do not shoot some guns or calibers as well as others.

The Jetfire has a nice trigger...

What is the saying about contempt before investigation?

[444]

Before this goes too far: my basic point is to not worry about very tiny differences in these cartridges. Having a gun is good. Having a big gun is better. If you can't have a big gun for some reason, carry what you are comfortable with, don't worry about trying to pick the tiny details apart.
Put another way: IMO, if you were confronted with the threat of deadly force 500 times and 250 times you drew your .25 ACP and coolly put a few rounds COM and the other 250 times you drew your .380 and coolly put a few rounds COM, I have my doubts as to whether a significant number of those bad guys would ever know the difference.
It isn't about numbers: energy, velocity, knockout forumlas and all that. This stuff is fun to discuss on the internet, but come on. Do you really think that a difference of 20-30 grains of bullet weight is going to result in some dramatic effect on the target ? There are an endless number of varibles to be considered besides the mouse gun cartridge you are using. If the guy turned a degree or two it would have way more effect than these two different cartridges. What he is wearing, his general health, what he is on, how motivated he is, what his motivation is........................... all matter way more than 20-30 grains of bullet weight.

[Manedwolf]

In fact, I'd use a .22 shooting stingers before I'd ever consider carrying a .25...

Because, of course, .22 RIMFIRE is never prone to misfire in pistols. I would never, ever, ever carry rimfire in a pistol. That's why JMB invented the .25 ACP, for reliability in vest-pockets.

And BTW, the Beretta Jetfire is an incredibly reliable pistol, and way more accurate than anything that small has a right to be. As I mentioned in another thread, I have one as a BUG because I shoot it well and have practiced with it, and when asked about that at the range, answered by quickly putting several shots into the neck and face of a silhouette target at 15 feet. It's tiny, can be carried anywere, and lack of recoil means you can empty it in all the same place in a matter of seconds. As for penetration, I answered that question by filling it with an every-other load of 50gr ball and 35gr Gold Dot hollowpoints (probably switch those for the Hornadys, though, tests seem better expansion). In summer, when a BG might be wearing lighter clothes, the "one in the pipe" and first in the mag are MagSafe +P Defenders, which are significantly louder and faster. The followups would be in a fraction of a second, the trigger is lightning-fast on that little thing.

Is it an instantaneous manstopper? No. If you are GOOD with it and can rapidly dump a magazine of 8+1 into a BG, are they going to notice and be seriously wounded, especially with neck and face hits? Hell yes. Is it a good BUG if someone is on top of you already and you've lost your primary weapon or such, pointblank? I think so.

So main carry is a Taurus PT745 .45 ACP. BUG is a Jetfire that can be carried...anywhere. Pocket, back-pocket with a shape-hiding paddle, ankle, not even noticed. But it's a solid gun, it goes "bang" every time and puts the rounds where I aim them, so I like it.

Shoot what you shoot well. :)

[ugaarguy]

Because, of course, .22 RIMFIRE is never prone to misfire in pistols. I would never, ever, ever carry rimfire in a pistol. That's why JMB invented the .25 ACP, for reliability in vest-pockets.

Guys, I'm beggining to see in more depth the contradictions in the handgun world because of reading and listening to too much closed minded conjecture. Early on I listened to the arguements of the "high tech" 40 S&W and how it replicated 357 Mag results in gel. Of course there was always the JMB deifying crowd proclaiming that he would have carried a 1911 and the 45 ACP is the only caliber acceptable for self defense. I later figured that a 9mm Parabellum, Luger, whatever you wanna call it was the minimum for self defense. Of course I also reasoned that a 38 Spl +P out of a snubbie was a good tiny BUG. Then I saw that 380 ACP had similar energy to the 38 Spl and thought ok, maybe thats acceptable too. Then looking at JMB's work he literally made/designed a gun for every niche. The 1911 big bore service pistol; The P-35/ BHP hi cap service pistol; various 380, 32, and 25 ACP pocket pistols; shotguns; light machine guns; heavy machine guns. He clearly had to have believed that rule 1 is have a gun - ANY GUN - it beats the alternative of not having one.

[MCgunner]

Because, of course, .22 RIMFIRE is never prone to misfire in pistols. I would never, ever, ever carry rimfire in a pistol. That's why JMB invented the .25 ACP, for reliability in vest-pockets.

I'm totally with ya there. I've owned a cheap, cheap RG .25 and it fed and extracted flawlessly. I've owned high end .22 autos that had problems and misfires are common in rimfire. If you're going to tote a rimfire, a NAA mini is the way to go IMHO, or some revolver of some sort. I would NEVER EVER carry one as a primary, though, just not enough, but it does beat nothin', I admit. Shoot for the eyes, though, not COM. You want to stop the fight NOW, not in 25 seconds. I've seen deer run 150 yards with the heart shot out of 'em with high powered rifles. Yeah, if you get lucky and hit the aorta, blood pressure immediately drops to zero and the deer collapses. But, hit the heart and BP can stay up for long enough for a bad guy to fight back for a while.

Here's MY opinion and I don't wanna start a momentum vs energy fight here in this thread:

I'll shoot center of mass with a serious fighting caliber and let the pressure wave (as Dr. Courtney explains) and big bullet crush cavity work for me. But, you ain't got much of either in a .22 bullet or .25 nor do you have much penetration. Hit a rib and the bullet can stop right there. :rolleyes: A .45, a nine, a .38 or .357 will bust through that rib and the shards it produces will only help incapacitation.

I can tell you out of a tiny NAA mini there sure ain't much penetration. I only carry that thing cause it's so tiny it's not in the way, so why not? It has come in useful to me, though, when I wasn't carrying anything else or was carrying a rifle. I was checking my feeder after getting out of my stand once and almost stepped on a cotton mouth. I had a .257 Roberts and that little NAA. So as to not blow mud all over myself...:D ...I pulled the NAA and dispatched that serpent. I've also taken a couple of rabbits with it when it was the only thing halfway appropriate for the job and the range wasn't too far, 30 feet or so. I even took a wild feral dog out at 25 yards with it with a somewhat lucky head shot. LOL It's just a handy little tool to have along at times, like a good pocket knife, and takes up no more room in a pocket.

But, do I wanna go into a fight with a NAA in .22LR? Not in this lifetime! Thanks, but my 9mm is more comforting to me on the bad side of town when I have to go there. It isn't that hard, after all, to carry a 14 ounce (unloaded) 9mm loaded with 11 +Ps that's small enough to fit in a large pocket. I can carry it all day, pocket or IWB, and it doesn't bother me at all even in 100 degree heat. Why would I want anything less? There are times when I do need a smaller gun, though, and for those times I'll keep carrying my .380. It ain't much, but it's a heck of a lot more than an NAA .22. :rolleyes:

[R127]

I have very little experience with .25's. When I was a kid some of the gangstas in my neighborhood had them. They'd occasionally shoot eachother, other people or other stuff with them and the results weren't particularly impressive, similar to stabbing somebody with a pencil. However I doubt they were using quality ammunition and it is very like the ammo was old and in poor condition. A 40gr-50gr bullet going 750-800fps probably steps up from pencil to icepick. Plenty of people get killed by icepicks.

As far as NAA minis go, if you were going to carry it in a defensive role I'd opt for the Black Widow or Mini Master in .22mag. You'll get 1/3 more velocity per bullet weight with the magnum than you'll get from the lr. The 2" barrel of the .22mag Black Widow can give you 1,300fps/130ftlbs with a 30gr bullet, 1,100fps/100ftlbs with a 40gr bullet. The Mini Master can drive a 30gr at 1,400fps for something in the neighborhood of 150ftlbs.

[Double Naught Spy]

Well, I have not seen thousands of gunshots over the years as I am not in hte medical profession. I just get whatever benefit I can from published sources of gunshot wounds - not the interpretation by gun experts, but those by medical experts. I am not impressed with with wound ballistics of the .25 acp.

[444]

"I am not impressed with with wound ballistics of the .25 acp."
Nor should you be. Now make everything in the equation 1% better. Now are you impressed ?
Neither am I.

This whole argument, IMO, is like arguing which RACE car you would rather have, a Ford Pinto or an AMC Hornet. And then spend a lot of time picking apart the huge advantage one is going to give you over the other.

[MCgunner]

Shoot what you want. I'm stickin' with my .380 as bare minimum. I will NOT trust my life to a .25, thanks. I have a 9mm +P in my pocket at the moment. It's not any more obtrusive than carrying a pop gun. :rolleyes: That's MY choice.

[Pork Fat]

Waiting breathlessly for the N-frame S&W Thunder Ranch .25 ACP using 12 round full moon clips. Ported, of course. Custom Shop, are you listening?

[444]

"I have a 9mm +P in my pocket..........."

That makes two of us.
I carry a 9mm usually although on occasion I will carry something else: never a .380 or a .25.
I don't feel undergunned with the 9mm vs. a .45 ACP or whatever for the same reason I don't see any practical difference between a .25 and a .380. We are splitting atoms.
I have a Keltec nine but recently bought a Glock 26. I was going to start carrying a Glock 17, but don't have a concealment holster for it. Rather than buy a holster, I just bought a new gun. Used to carry a full size 1911 but decided the nine is just as good and holds more ammo.

[Double Naught Spy]

444, show me the stats where all over pistols calibers are only 1% better than .25 acp. 1% is a very specific number, so you have very specific data to back it up or is 1% simply your way of giving the appearance of precision by quantifying that for which you only have qualified?

Somehow, if there was just 1% difference, I don't think you would be hamstringing yourself with a 9mm in +P when you could carry a .32 acp and have so much less recoil with the same effectiveness.

[saboteur]

It sounds to me like you are trying to make yourself feel better about your choice. I won't argue the difference between .25 & .380, because it may well be small (although the larger diameter of the .380 has to be a plus), but a 9mm, .40, or .45 might be needed for heavy clothing, barriers of any signifcance (even say to go through an arm to get to vitals, etc.).

You really think a .25 will make you feel confident if someone is big, or has heavy clothing on?

[444]

Double Naught Spy, the whole problem with these discussions is the fact that people are too caught up in statistics.

[MCgunner]

Used to carry a full size 1911 but decided the nine is just as good and holds more ammo.

Well, at least we agree on that one. ;)

[sm]

Double Naught Spy, the whole problem with these discussions is the fact that people are too caught up in statistics.

At least it is about firearms, My head hurt hearing the Cell Phone / Cell Phone Provider Debates...

Real emergency too, could not get the Pizza Folks to have a pizza delivered to their home.

"Why didn't you use your landline?" I said as I finally left the area to study in quiet elsewhere...

Deer in the headlight looks...

Back to our regularly scheduled debate. :D

[CSA 357]

give me a good knife over the 25 any day!:D

[cookekdjr]

Ummmm....Let's see if I get this straight:

1. Best .25 ACP loads send 50-70 gr pill @ 900fps;
2. Best .380 loads send 85-95 gr load @ 1050-1150fps
3. The .380 penetrates deeper
4. The .380 makes a larger diameter hole aka wound channel
5. But there's no difference in performance against bad guys?

Fellas, I don't think we could see a huge difference in one-shot stops....on mice. Once you move up to rats, the .380 is the way to go. Racoons and opossums? Good luck with that .25, I think you'll need multiple shots if you miss the head shots (remember of course, shot placement is everything ;) ).

All joking aside, a bigger, heavier faster bullet is the way to go. I know the .25 can do in a pinch (sometimes); I had a homicide case where the victim took a .25 slug under the arm - the bullet hit in just the right spot and went into the guys heart and he died. But in most instances you're going to miss most of your shots, and will be lucky to hit the bad guy at all. You want a round that disables when you miss the vital organs and only hit an arm or leg, as opposed to a round that may not disable even if you hit where you are aiming.
The .380 is a marginal round...but compared to the .25 its an elephant gun.
The .25 doesn't guarantee quick kills against a racoon; do you really want to trust your life to that?
-David

[gopguy]

444,This flies in the face of so much other testing. I hope you will rethink this before you put your life on line depending on this line of thinking....:eek: I view a .25 as strictly a nose and eye gun.......at point blank range if my primary weapon fails..

[PX15]

I'm an old fart of the "if one 4 barrel is good, then two must be great" generation.

I've owned a 25cal pistol in the distant past... I gave it to my elderly Aunt who recently offered it back to me free... I passed.

There are simply too many options out there on the firearms market to settle for a 25cal anything.

I'm not against small caliber handguns.. When wx or wardrobe deny me concealed carry with my Sig P239, or even my S&W Airweight Bodyguard I often find myself carrying my KelTec P32..

But I stay higher on the caliber power chain every chance I get.

But that's just me.. Carry what you have faith in, it's your butt on the line.

Best Wishes,

J Pomeroy

[MachIVshooter]

This is an interesting thread. I have always considered the .380 minimum for defense, and it is a pipsqeak IMO. But it is still pushing bullets nearly half again the diameter of the .25 and with up to 3 times the energy. That is equivalent to comparing the .38 super to the .50 AE. HUGE difference.

It is well known that any conventional handgun cartridge is marginally effective, so why would you opt for anything less than the most you can carry/handle?

It seems to be somewhat common wisdom that 12" of penetration is considered adequate. The .380 cannot achive this with most ammunition and under most circumstances, and the lowly .25 does not even come close. This combined with the fact that handguns cause trauma by crushing and tearing tissue would lead to a conclusion that a larger bullet that penetrates deeper is preferable to a smaller bullet that achieves less penetration (duh).

Many, MANY people have walked out of ER's a couple hours later with a gauze bandage and a bottle of pain pills after being shot with .25's. I'll stick with my 10mm for defense.

[keg]

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :cuss: :cuss: :fire: NOW I'M READY!
.380 yes... .25 no... can you shoot 3 bumble bee's in flight? At how many feet?
Point is, can you hit the target? Otherwise I would use a 12 gauge shootgun.:neener:

[pete f]

Knowing someone who took four rounds of .380 and still managed to kill the BG with a maglight, I would not carry a 380 for anything i had to stake my life on.

I carry a .45 because I expect to make two holes for every shot. one in and one out.

I have gutted deer that have been shot with .357's and .44 and .45's The interior differences in the wound channels were very evident. 140 JSPs in 357 do a very good job of penetrating and expanding. 225 JHP out of a .44 make nice holes, 260 JHP out ofthe 45 are sledge hammers and if you up to a 300 grainer, I suppose you may think there is no not much reasaon to carry anything larger, but after you see what they do, you will change your mind

[enfield]

Suit yourself! :D

[Valkman]

Hmm, it's tempting to switch to the .25 from my .45acp, but I'll stick with it a while longer I guess. :p The "other gun" in the truck is a .357 - no way in this world I'm trusting my life to .25 or .380, although my Makarov would get the nod if that choice were a necessity.

[riverdog]

I went looking for a mouse gun in .380 or .32 ACP and ended up with a Glock G-19 -- go figure.

[Manedwolf]

.