SHTF loaner gun for inexperienced people


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Tokugawa
April 29, 2006, 11:08 PM
Assume there is a major disruption in civil life aka katrina, king riots, etc. You have a lot of non gunowning friends who all of a sudden realize they are at the mercy of the mob, looters, etc.
What sort of gun would be useful to have laying around to lend them. Nothing fancy, just a tool. My first thought was a cheap Mosin or mauser but the noise and muzzle blast would be really intimidating to a non experienced person. Less than $100 would be good. SKS? Single shot 12 gauge? 10/22?
Your thoughts please. Figure you have very little time to train them to keep from shooting themselves. Is this a bad idea? Maybe give them a baseball bat instead?

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1911Tuner
April 29, 2006, 11:14 PM
Single-shot 20 gauge...Cut the barrel off to 20-22 inches. Pretty sure that 3-inch/#1 buckshot is available.

Croyance
April 29, 2006, 11:14 PM
There are all sorts of problems if people have no time to learn and no base from which to figure out what you are saying.
Any effective gun will be intimidating to somebody who has never shot.
Remember, under stress, even police with yearly qualifications forget to work a pump action.
At that point, cost will not be a concern, as you will only have your own stock.
A Model 10, they can be had beat up at gun shows. It is heavy for a .38 Special, a medium frame. Make sure the damage is purely cosmetic though.

geekWithA.45
April 29, 2006, 11:18 PM
I believe that Kurt Russel's response to "friends" who asked to borrow guns during the Rodney King riot was pretty close to spot on: "I'm sorry. They're all being used right now."

When the s is on the way to the fan, it's too late to realize you oughta buy a gun, and I'd have profound questions about the judgement of such frightened, panicy folks, unless I knew them really, really well.

For folks I know and trust, I'd think shotguns, pistol caliber carbines, or maybe even AR/AK/SKS would be in order.

Hemicuda
April 29, 2006, 11:19 PM
if it takes a disaster for them to see the light, it's already too late... sorry, i won't have either the time or inclination to teach them... they are on their sorry-butted own... they shoulda done something about it before the feces hits the rotatoinal-ossilator...

Kodiaz
April 29, 2006, 11:20 PM
If they don't know how to use a gun they are better off without one.


If you have some neighbor's or friends that you care enough about to purchase a spare firearm. Do them and yourself a favor get them to a range and show them how to safely and effectively use a firearm.


With some rare exceptions I "think" most people that know how to use firearms will have one.

Granted this is only what I think and what I think is worth about as much as a politician's promises.

joab
April 29, 2006, 11:22 PM
I would not go out of my way to have a gun around just in case the unprepared suddenly see the error of their ways.

But if I had to choose one it would be an old Marlin 60 that you can get from a pawn shop for less than $50

Training is their problem.
I won't have time, I'll be scrounging for that generator that I kept putting off buying

Standing Wolf
April 29, 2006, 11:23 PM
People need to prepare themselves for trouble before trouble arrives.

lee n. field
April 29, 2006, 11:25 PM
Give them baseball bats.

All they know about guns they learned from TeeVee. They'll be pointing it every which way, with their finger on the trigger all the time. The first time they actually shoot it, the noise will rattle them badly. A disaster waiting to happen.

Derek Zeanah
April 29, 2006, 11:27 PM
Nope. Maybe they can come and cook at Compound Zeanah, but I'm not arming someone untrained on short notice.

Texas Moon
April 29, 2006, 11:34 PM
If you really wanted to, keep a couple/three of El Cheapo single shot shotguns around.
Something like an NEF or H&R in 12 gauge. Keep a few boxes of cheap bird shot for each gun.
They can be broken down and stored easily.
Not a lot of cash to get into them.
These are very easy for non-gunnies to learn to use quickly.
These guns are pretty much bullet proof and don't require much(if any) maintnance.

aaronrkelly
April 29, 2006, 11:38 PM
I would have to think long and hard about arming someone that had NO gun experience.

But lets take a real world person I know. My best friend Mitch......he doesnt own any guns but has shot his dads 12 ga with me busting a few clays. We also shot at some spinning targets with a .22 Marlin (also his dads).

He doesnt own any guns and I only was out with him for 2 hours (and the only 2 hours he ever shot a gun to boot)....but he was safe and clearly grasped the concept. Hes a very mechanical person to start with.

Him I would hand a 12 ga pump shotgun (or single shot) and/or a revolver without batting an eye. If I had an hour or so for a quick lesson I suspect I would feel safe handing him almost anything. The basis for good gun handling he mostly has......

BigG
April 29, 2006, 11:39 PM
I agree with the Kurt Russell approach; also the guys who pointed out waiting to learn about guns until you NEED to use them is too late.

FXR
April 29, 2006, 11:41 PM
I'm kinda with the rest of the posters in that I'm not too sympathetic to those who won't buy a gun in advance of "excitement." Also, giving a gun to someone who's never fired one before and simulaneously under the stress of a crisis situation is *really* asking for more trouble rather than solving a problem.

Given, that, if I absolutely had to arm someone who is known to be inexperienced and only marginally trustworthy (a great leap of faith, I admit), then I'd lean toward a single-shot shotgun, probably 20 gauge. I'd give them one shotshell for the chamber and a couple for their pocket and that's it. Make sure they had birdshot and not slugs.

Paraphrasing Cooper, such an armed person must be taken seriously enough to slow down a determined adversary but won't pose an undue threat to known friendlies.

Still, that's a last choice. I'd rather associate with those who think ahead. I can even accept caliber disagreements, as long as they bring their own ammo!
K

MrTwigg
April 29, 2006, 11:46 PM
I'd have to say no. Armed people with zero experience will not be getting their hands on my guns. Much too dangerous.

If I had a chance to get them to the range a couple of times to be sure they aren't going to shoot themsevles (Or me !) , then it's a different story.

rbernie
April 30, 2006, 12:10 AM
Maybe I'm a schmuck, but I can think of a few mature, empty-nest neighbors that I'm pretty sure aren't armed at present but whom I'd trust with a simple point-n-click firearm. If they asked for something, I'd give 'em one of my SKSs with a magazine full of Barnaul SPs.

bubbygator
April 30, 2006, 12:15 AM
Gee, I read this a little differently. Like, my daughter & son-in-law & 3 boys are not gun people; but when SHTF, I will take them into my safe-keeping... with what could I best arm these dear and trusted people such that they could contribute to our mutual defense??

I will have stocked 9mm, .357/.38, .22, 12GA, & .410 (for squirrels, etc.). I think perhaps a Ruger PC-9 & a SxS for the man, a .22 auto pistol (Browning?) for the wife, & .22 auto rifles (10-22?) for the 2 oldest boys. It's not that I would depend on the woman & boys for killing effectiveness, but for covering/harassing fire.

????

sm
April 30, 2006, 12:32 AM
Like 1911Tuner...

Single shot shotguns. These are great buys used at garage sales, estate sales and pawn shops. The H&R /NEF 20 ga Youth model I use, tosses some of the best patterns and slug groups from its fixed modified barrel. PC and short , even has a pretty good recoil pad. Why whack a gun for a truck gun, to make shorter and no choke, when one can buy a PC bone stock gun for a C Note that tosses great patterns and chokes.

Now, you folks do realize trained persons do sometimes lose guns / cannot access gun due to floods, tornados, fires or whatnot?

Neighborly is having Single shot shotguns and ammo to give out to assist. Kind of like having spare blankets, candles, cans of soup...

BTDT and Preacherman and a few others know Mums the Word ;)

Be kinda nice if a tornado come thru, you are at work, long guns at home and only a CCW (if that) and a single shot .410 with slugs tossed your way as well...no power, dark, alarm does not work of course...Gets you by until someone arrives to bring a lever action or Pump shotgun to help you babsit...

I was doing some assisting in a business, this guy had no guns in store. I was the only person CCW-ing. A customer runs to his car, and brought in a single shot .410 and slugs, his kids gun. His wife got worried, no phones, called her brother to check as she knew he was supposed to be at this business. Brother brought Pump shotguns, and Lever action rifles. 4 of us kept watch, sent the others to the back near the walk in vault until power restored.

Been on both sides of this scenerio, given out and accepted.

Kodiaz
April 30, 2006, 12:40 AM
Now handing a gun person a firearm because their's was lost or damaged is a whole other story. That would be a really decent thing to do. I have an 870 p just for that purpose.


Baseball bats are the perfect weapon for nongunnies.

It would suck like hell to hand someone a single shot 20 ga. with buck and then get shot in the back by their ND.

bogie
April 30, 2006, 01:59 AM
I think I have enough boomsticks to pretty much arm my little subdivision, but out here in the far-burbs, pretty much everyone is a deer hunter.

As for the folks who aren't experienced, and you're expecting bad craziness (i.e., mob from city is approaching, and they've been looting the bejeezus out of things...), I've got enough quick set epoxy, yard tool handles, and kitchen knives to produce a buncha pikes...

That reminds me... It's time to take up archery...

Croyance
April 30, 2006, 02:02 AM
Funny thing is that it takes a stress situation for people to figure out what their real beliefs are. Like all those people against the death penalty until some really bad criminal is caught.

It isn't that I have no sympathy for those who didn't prepare themselves. Its just that some of these people really, really freak out. Which is dangerous to themselves and any random passer-by.

Actually, I'm with the poster who said they could bunker up. Safety in numbers, watches, pooled resources. Plus they could be taught, if there is time, how to use a simple weapon. Might take the Barney Fife approach though.

akodo
April 30, 2006, 02:21 AM
I believe that Kurt Russel's response to "friends" who asked to borrow guns during the Rodney King riot was pretty close to spot on: "I'm sorry. They're all being used right now."

Seems to me the smarter answer would be 'come on in, cover the east wall with bobby, yiou can leave any time you want, but the gun stays here'

First off, there is going to be a whole gammut of differing gun knowledge. Lots of 40 and 50 year olds around here grew up in more rural areas, and have shot guns before, just not for a long time. Take my own family (and I am not near 40) Grew up on a farm, didn't do much hunting but the boys each had a .22, and access to 20 and 12 guage shotguns, did some shooting, etc. Currently, we plink every thanksgiving that the weather allows as a family, but my brother doesn't currently own any firearms. I'd sure as hell loan him one, and if I find out one of my neighbors is basically the same (grew up shooting, just not political about it, basically neutral on the issue until trouble arouse) I'd have no problem offering a loaner (although I would probably sell it for 1$ and ask for it to be sold back but realize it may disappear)

As far as handguns, yea, a 38 revolver is going to be a good choice. As far as rifles and shotguns, I'd think an old boltgun would be wonderful, first choice. 2nd would be single shot, then lever/semiauto/pump. It's been my experience that most people who have been exposed to very few firearms have usually been exposed to a bolt action .22 at some time.

Shotguns, a single or double, followed by a bolt action, then a pump.

I have made this comment before, but at least around here, you go to a gunstore that sells used, it is old marlin or sears-robuck bolt action 12s and 20s and 16s even that are selling for $50-75, whereas 12 guage pumps of even worse quality are usually tagged $110

matt9052
April 30, 2006, 02:46 AM
I have thought about this situation. If something happened, I would probably have to be the one that would leave to find help. This would leave my wife or in longer time periods, several other relatives in charge. I know they aren't good shots or very experienced. I would need something simple. I was thinking my SKS. It is easy to operate, less recoil than a shotgun, and also has a large and imtimidating bayonet on it. It would be better to use a shotgun with buckshot in a close quarters situation, but I order to be effective, it would have to be a 12 or 20 gauge which has a lot of recoil. My AR has a larger magazine and also a very imtimidating bayonet but is a lot more complicated. A .22 doesn't have enough firepower. I might consider a pistol but in a small caliber(.40S&W or less which I don't have).

preWWWIIbuff
April 30, 2006, 03:41 AM
My own thought is if SHTF then I have my group of friends that know.
I have picked up *for parts only:evil: all of the sks I can.
I find the sks to be not only easy to use soft on recoil, that with very little In
the way of lessons to use:cool: The controls are about as straght forward as anything on the market...yes and the guns stay here.
this is not to say that is all I have ...just have more than 1 parts :neener:sks extra..
SCHMIDT K31 7.5X55
WIN MOD 70 30.06
REM MOD 81 300 SAVAGE I love take downs who did that design.
ruger 10/22 target fixed it up good
Browning a5 just love those John Brownings
plus a few others
plus a few others
plus a.........

roscoe
April 30, 2006, 04:33 AM
Ruger Single-Six with .22 mag cylinder.

rangerruck
April 30, 2006, 05:21 AM
marlin mod 60 or sks for a little more bite.

Zen21Tao
April 30, 2006, 05:24 AM
Most of my friends own guns. The few that don't aren't anti gun they just value other things more. With that said, if a SHTF situation arose and there was time to prepare I would encourage them to buy a Remington 870s, SKSs, Cetme, AK, Mini 14/30 or perhaps a hi-point 9mm carbine. If there wasn't time to prepare then I have an extra AR15 and an HKG3 that I would loan out to them. But, I don't see myself buying any guns specifically to loan out.

chaim
April 30, 2006, 05:26 AM
Most of my non-gun owning friends are not without some experience with guns. A couple are ex-military (US and Israeli), some are country boys who grew up hunting, some are ex-gun owners, others have been brought to the range by me.

If it was a bit of a localized riot where I might lend a friend a gun in their home that is one scenario. For the larger scale possibilities I may insist that we all be in one place if they want my guns. At any rate the gun I'd lend would be determined a lot by the person's experience.

Someone with some shooting experience, but not much or not recent, would get something pretty simple. A long gun to make mistakes less likely. Probably a .22lr or pistol caliber carbine so that they are less likely to be spooked by the recoil and blast. Of course a quick refresher on gun safety would be in order as well.

For someone with a lot of recent experience I'd probably be comfortable lending one of my revolvers, though I'm sure they'd want a long gun as well since they are more effective. Depending upon how many people I helped arm I might give them both a revolver and a long gun, but I might make them choose. Even they'd likely get the gun safety refresher too.

For those in between the other two levels of experience I'd go with a shotgun or my SKS (if I'm not using it). They will need a firearm for defensive use anyway and a shotgun is good for defense. A long-gun generally is easier to aim with than a handgun under stress. A rifle or shotgun will be pretty powerful so stopping power is decent. Also, a long gun is less likely to be aimed where it shouldn't be (since the barrel is longer they are more likely to notice if it is facing the wrong direction). They'd definatly be getting a safety refresher as well.

The only people with absolutely zero gun experience I'd consider arming is my mother and brother. They'd get as much instruction as possible then likely a .22 rifle if they seemed able to handle it. My dad grew up a country boy- his family owned guns and he grew up hunting. He'd probably get a shotgun with a safety refresher course.

DunedinDragon
April 30, 2006, 07:34 AM
I'd follow Kurt Russell's lead but offer them a can of OC spray. I think the potential liabilities involved in letting a novice use one of your guns without qualified direct supervision is WAY too great.

Don't Tread On Me
April 30, 2006, 07:42 AM
I wouldn't give any SHTF weaponry to friends, because I don't trust any of them with firearms. They'd probably do more harm than good. I've advocated firearm ownership to many of them time and time again for all the practical reasons. I've taken many to the range. The vast majority are not anti-gun (only a couple), but they are not pro-gun enough to go out and buy. These folks need some fear or threat to cross the line. All I can do is bring them to the door, but they have to walk through. It isn't going to be my job to be some sort of an "arsenal" to hand out firearms to desperate people.


As for "family", the only relatives that I consider family already has plenty of SHTF arms. The rest of them will face the process known as natural selection. A few less anti-gun people never hurt....

Yeah, I know. But I don't care.


***

As for a recommendation for a weapon that would be given to a beginner. I'd rule handguns out. I've seen too many newbies shoot a handgun so badly, that a handgun would be a liability. Long arm would be a must.


For cheap, I'd say SKS. Recoil isn't bad. BUT, new folks always seem to have a lot of confusion and uncertainty with semi-autos. Is it loaded? Is it chambered? So forget that.

Remember, for SHTF - the idea is defense. Defense isn't necessarily blow the targets' chest cavity out with a high powered wonder bullet from an uber-tactical rifle. A good "peppering" from a 20ga should be enough to deter just about anyone. Pump action should be simple enough to use.

Lever action 357. Should take no more than 5 minutes of instruction to teach how these work. Again, dirt simple.

Truth is, short of an all out firefight, for general SHTF, even a single shot rifle or shotgun like a break action would work fine. You could even deter armed attackers with those. Usually, those who prey on others are looking for an easy score. The idea of armed resistance is a major turn-off.

1 old 0311
April 30, 2006, 08:00 AM
Those $100.00 Hi Points will then be worth $500.00. Pick up a few now. Cash only please:neener: :neener: :neener:


Kevin

Travis Lee
April 30, 2006, 08:02 AM
There was a time when I planned to have a supply of weapons for a SHTF
emergency to offer my friends....

Some renounced my friendship about the time I bought my second gun....
others did so in the years since, essentially for the same justification.
"I had changed."

Problem solved.

I don't make friends with people who aren't themselves armed anymore.

--Travis--

TOADMAN
April 30, 2006, 10:07 AM
My close neighbors in and around my housing area have no guns...They know I have guns...If & when the SHTF, a selected few are welcome to bring food and water to my house and I'll teach them how to load magazines..I will not give them a spare gun or two...

Don't Tread On Me
April 30, 2006, 10:13 AM
America was born on the concept of the individual. Rest assured, it will end up that way once again.

BigG
April 30, 2006, 10:40 AM
America was born on the concept of the individual. Very true. The collectivists can have the .pol protect them.

Hardware
April 30, 2006, 10:57 AM
There was a time when I planned to have a supply of weapons for a SHTF
emergency to offer my friends....

Some renounced my friendship about the time I bought my second gun....
others did so in the years since, essentially for the same justification.
"I had changed."

Problem solved.

I don't make friends with people who aren't themselves armed anymore.

Around here we have a word for the change your former friends identified in you. We call it "responsibility".

I have a short list of people who get invited into my house, camp or bunker. The list for the people who get guns that don't have them upon entering is even shorter. My policy of never having a firearm I don't have ammunition for hasn't had to pay off yet, but it may someday.

XavierBreath
April 30, 2006, 11:13 AM
Having been in this situation, I now fall in with the "give 'em ball bats" crowd.

One thing that will be instantly apparent in a disaster is ammo, especially buckshot, will be scarce as turtle teeth. A day after Katrina, there was no buckshot within 300 miles of New Orleans for sale. No shotgun shells of any type or SD ammo of any type was available as far North as I-20 within three days of the event. It was not taken off the shelves, it was sold out. Thus, attempting to train a person in the proper use of a gun after the disaster will be wasting needed ammunition. The time to learn is beforehand.

If I have a friend who lost his firearms either in the disaster or through confiscation, I would gladly give him one of my extra shotguns with some ammo. I will not waste my ammo trying to train those who would not arm themselves, and I will not loan them a firearm without giving them training. Instead, they get a steak knife and a chunk of 2X4 to whittle into a club. They should have supported the 2nd ammendment and everyone's rights to keep and bear arms before they needed to do so themselves.

Don't Tread On Me
April 30, 2006, 12:09 PM
They should have supported the 2nd ammendment and everyone's rights to keep and bear arms before they needed to do so themselves.


So true. I have long held that people only care about the rights in which they actually use or think they use, or might lose and bother them.


I agree. Aftermath is NOT the time to be wasting ammo on training. As if there is somewhere to train (unless you live on some large land).


Katrina caused an ammo price increase and shortage even beyond that immediate area.


With the coming storm season, I will remind everyone that doesn't own a gun, but is a friend of mine that they might want to consider a means of effective self defense. That's it. A simple suggestion. Some people need to learn the hard way.

Remington788
April 30, 2006, 12:40 PM
Since you say the loaner is for inexperienced people, I'd have to pass on giveing one out for safety reasons. Now, if TSHTF, I have a few weapons that would be better suited for home defense that will be loaned out to certain family members that have firearm knowledge. 5-10 minutes of instruction on that particular firearm will be all they need to be safe and makes them much more effective than if they had to use the bird shotgun or squirrel rifle. These guns range anywhere from an SKS to an AR15, just depends on who it is.

albanian
April 30, 2006, 12:46 PM
Putting aside that fact that they should already have a gun, I think the SKS makes a good choice. I have a bunch of them so that is probably what I would loan out in a situation like that. A pump 12 is another good choice but I only have three of them so I could only lend two of my friends a shotgun since I would need one for me.

I would not give them any handguns unless they knew how to use it. I think they would be better off with a long gun if they are not good shooters. At least it would be hard to shoot your self with a long gun.

So my choices are SKS or shotgun.

Srigs
April 30, 2006, 01:07 PM
Shotguns would be a good choice. Also revolvers would be a good handgun choice. :)

Randy in Arizona
April 30, 2006, 01:17 PM
Some renounced my friendship about the time I bought my second gun....
others did so in the years since, essentially for the same justification.
"I had changed."

Sad at first glance, but better for you in the long run.

Didn't happen to me only because 1] most of my friends were already gunnuts, 2] not many friends anyway.

By any chance do you live in Taos or Santa Fe?

Fu-man Shoe
April 30, 2006, 01:21 PM
I like the baseball bat idea, myself.

For select non-gunnie friends I could trust, I'd
say the single shot 20 ga wouldn't be out of
order.

I do think any kind of semiauto would be a much
less than ideal weapon. Manual of arms can be
somewhat complicated, and there is no time to
teach.

bpisler
April 30, 2006, 01:24 PM
The only people i would loan a gun
to have enough of there own.I live
in a very small apt complex with 7
apartments.Half don't speak to me
because i own guns,the others have
shown vey little interest in guns.
The one's that don't talk to me
would be SOL,the others would be
welcome to stay for a while.

Clipper
April 30, 2006, 02:26 PM
Yeah, yeah, yeah...And what happens when I loan a gun that my panic-stricken beneficiary then uses imprudently to shoot some schmuck that didn't present what the legal system would quantify as a threat worthy of deadly force? Guess who's stuff is in the wind for negligence when it is found who OWNED, and is ultimately RESPONSIBLE for that firearm? I wouldn't even want to sell under those panic conditions, since some lawyer would make a case that I should have suspected this person was not going to be properly trained or to have the time or inclination to make themselves aware of their legal responsibilities in such a situation...Nobody has the right to put me on the sharp end of the legal lance but me.

Leanwolf
April 30, 2006, 02:44 PM
The only way I'd ever loan a gun to a friend in a SHTF situation would be if said friend were a very responsible and safe gun owner, who, through some SHTF misfortune, had lost his guns, i.e., terrible storm, fire, stolen, etc.

I see some here saying they'd hand out cheap semi-auto firearms to non-responsible bliss ninnies. That is as bad an idea as you could have. During the five minute instruction course, are you also going to teach them how to clear a jam or other malfunction?? Waste precious ammo teaching them how to hit the barn door from the INSIDE?? Make all that noise doing it??

Having been a weapons training instructor with a large non-federal peace officer organization, I can assure you that "five minutes" of training is as dangerous as it gets. I've seen police cadets, who were still unsafe with semi-auto pistols, after weeks of training and 3,000 rounds of practice, with hands on instruction from very astute, dedicated instructors.

In a highly stressful situation, it is sheer folly to hand out guns to know-nothings, who previously either hated firearms, or were ambivalent about them. They won't have the faintest idea HOW or WHEN to use them responsibly.

You'll spend a lot more time worrying about if they'll accidentally blow your, or a family member's head off, (Oops! Sorry 'bout dat!) than any benefit it gains you.

Just my take on it. No gun hand outs by this child, I assure you.

L.W.

Hal8000
April 30, 2006, 03:14 PM
I stock what I like! :D


Who gets a gun depends on:

1. Who it is. :scrutiny:
2. How deep the stuff is that's hitting the fan. :what:
3. Which direction the fan is blowing. :uhoh:
4. The fan setting, ie... low, med or HIGH. ;)

Dave Markowitz
April 30, 2006, 04:29 PM
Personally, I won't loan a gun to someone with little to no firearms training. That's like handing car keys to someone who's never been behind the wheel and saying, "Take her for a spin." Aside from the danger to himself and anyone in the immediate vicinity, it's unlikely that such a person would have a clue as to when it would be appropriate to use said weapon. I have a baseball bat or two laying around here he can use.

On the other hand, if one of my gun owning friends or relatives was at my house and TSHTF, and he's without one, then I'll gladly loan him something like my Mini-14, AK or an SKS as I grab my AR-15.

Cueball
April 30, 2006, 04:38 PM
IN the scenario outlined in this thread, it would be plain stupid to think of giving firearms out to the untrained. Stock up on Louisville Sluggers.

Run&Shoot
April 30, 2006, 07:15 PM
I also read this thinking more of family members coming in rather than total strangers. Many of them have occassional firearm experience, usually shotguns, maybe a revolver, or bolt rifle, etc.

It may make more sense to have them trained to keep you reloaded with alternate firearms. Even so, I think it only fair to at least give them something for the worst eventuality (you are killed and they have no other defense except themselves). If they have some experience, then perhaps they could at leats be given lookout, flank watcher, or second/third line defense duties.

The issue is that they may know how to handle a couple of types of firearms under calm conditions. But in a SHTF situation you want to give them something aboslutely no-brainer simple. I believe the simplest and reasonably effective firearm would be a lever action carbine in .357, .44 or .30-30. They don't have to learn about magzines, operating a bolt, etc. The lever action is just very intuitive for most folks. Easy to load, easy to cycle.

i know if my daughters and their families showed up on my doorstep ( I hope they would make it) I would certainly take them in, give them as much safety, tactics and firing training as possible each day, and give them the simplest arms possible.

But I agree with all the other posters that the best strategy is to get as many of your loved ones proficient as possible with reasonable fireamrs long before they are needed. I still think simpler is better and therfore I am helping them get trained and set up with 870s, Marlin .357/.30-30, and Glock 19s at a minimum. Hopefully we can progress to the AR15 and M1 Garand soon. I am not a big clay fan, but it is becoming apparent that this is one of the easiest ways to get newbies proficient with something reasonable for both defense and sport.

cliffstanc
April 30, 2006, 07:46 PM
Hey, if you're really serious about this - and you don't trust your allies with firearms - plain ol' baseball bats just aren't going to cut it when the SHTF. How many get broken at the typical ball game? They're not sturdy enough to handle actual combat.

What you want to do is give them real melee weapons, something like this (http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/eCat/Swords%20and%20Knives/Early%20Medieval%20Mace.aspx), for example. Of course, you could probably make something similar at much less cost ahead of time, but you get the idea. Make some spears and pikes too, since as we're not trusting them with ranged weapons we might as well give them as much of an advantage in distance as we can.

Or, of course, you could make friends with people who already firearm users or are willing to learn before trouble starts, and leave the hand-to-hand stuff for the SCA.

Still, I kinda like the look of that mace.... :)

- Cliff

Mannlicher
April 30, 2006, 10:24 PM
zero, zip, nada. I don't loan guns to folks, and certainly not to folks who dont know what to do with one.

rudolf
April 30, 2006, 11:17 PM
Give them chainsaws. They were sheeple, now they can be brave. And chainsaws DO scare looters. :evil:

ARTiger
May 1, 2006, 01:35 AM
Shotguns: 20 ga. 870's
Pistols: S&W model 10's (lots of cheap, good quality surplus around)

athlon64
May 1, 2006, 02:08 AM
You have a lot of non gunowning friends who all of a sudden realize they are at the mercy of the mob, looters, etc.

The best long term solution to this potential issue is to choose better friends who are realistic and take responsibility to protect themselves rather than having you do the footwork and cover the bill. You also may be liable for whatever is done with that firearm (e.g. accidents, unjustifiable shooting) when the dust settles down (assuming it ain't TEOTWAWKI).

pete f
May 1, 2006, 02:36 AM
I have some extras, a couple of chzech 98's and some SKS's, maybe some other things when the times come. I figure that not everyone who would come asking would be novices, maybe family or friends who had lost a house or whose house would be off limits or similar and need to be useful in time that time.

Would you fail to loan a gun to a brother or nephew or niece who was unable to get home?

If the person coming was a complete Newb, I would rethink what they might get. maybe all they would get would be an axe or a iron pipe, maybe they would get a 98, just have to depend. Living as I do in a state where something like 50 % of the people hunt or fish, There are a lot of 870's and 94's sitting in closets. I suspect supplying others would not be that necessary.

V4Vendetta
May 1, 2006, 11:31 AM
I've thought a lot about this theory because I have only 1 or 2 friends that know enough about guns to be of any real help. The rest of the folks I know are sheep:( .

If they know how to use a gun, if they are good friends of mine, I might load them something like a semi-auto AK or a pump 870.

If they are my friends who didn't like guns before they realized they needed them, I might lt them into my fortress, but they get bats, bows & arrows*. I might give them something like a single-shotgun if the trouble is bad enough but I'd prefer to save the ammo for those who know how to use it.

*I know how to make them out of stuff on the ground thanks to my older brother;) .

kjeff50cal
May 1, 2006, 12:45 PM
Take a tip from the Tutsi of Rwanda..... buy machetes, lots of machetes. Not many zombies want to go up against anyone wielding what amounts to a short sword.:evil: Issue ss shotgun to those those who guard your immediate perimeter. Barney Fife them (with birdshot) if needed.

AJAX22
May 2, 2006, 02:01 PM
I really like the machette Idea, you can order them in bulk ofline cheep, they don't take up alot of space and they don't consume ammo, and I think they might just be enough to give an untrained person that 'dont f**k with me' look in there eyes.

However, If for whatever reason someone who I cared about truely needed one, was responsible, mechanicaly inclined and willing to take instruction, a good solid revolver in 38 or 357, preferably a DAO would be a good choice, Providing you had an extra holster to send with it. I've never seen anyone who had an accidental discharge off of a lemon squeezer, it just takes too much effort to really screw it up.

In a pinch if they have use the pistol it probably won't be at any signifigant range and at 10 feet most people can instinctivly hit a man sized target.

If you feel generous a long gun in a compatible calibre would greatly improve there chances of hitting anything at a distance, especially if it had a nice little 2.5 power with some good glass in it as well as the open sights. Lever action marlins in .357 would be a good choice.

For ammo, sending them out with flying ashtray .38 hollowpoints lessens the chance of over penetration while boosting the man stoping power a little.

only having one type of ammo lessens the chance that they will get confused in a high tension situation.

Whatever gun you lend out, it should be one that isn't linked to you in any way. Its unfortunate but thats the way our legal system is going.

ball3006
May 2, 2006, 03:07 PM
load my mags, if she is nekkid :what: ;) I don't know if anyone on my block has guns, and I don't think they know I have them either. Loan them out? Depends on the threat. But, then again, why would they come to me? I doubt if a mob of armed perps would assult my street, what is there for them? There are much more affluent neighborhoods nearby. If SWMBO and I can't hold off an assult, she is a great shot too, with the guns I have, we should have evacuated a long time ago. My shooting bud lives about a mile away and he has a M60 and several M16s. His kid is a better shot than me, young eyes. With semi auto rifles, shotguns, and pistols, I am not worried. And, NO ONE will be successful confiscating them from me.......Of course, when I retire I will live out in the country in a heavily wooded area that I have already established defensive positions........chris3

Brad Johnson
May 2, 2006, 03:24 PM
My vote for a DA revolver in .38 special or .357. No controls to learn. Multi-round. Point and click.

Brad

Third_Rail
May 2, 2006, 04:10 PM
I don't have firearms to loan...

Everyone I trust enough to loan firearms to is already armed - they're smart enough to be.

The people on the border of being trustworthy are my parents and sister, and they're over 100 miles away; they hate firearms, to boot. They're the only people I'd loan something to, other than my brother who is about 40 miles away - the only reason he got rid of his rifles and pistol is that his current SO didn't like them... to this day, I can't believe he did that.

thebigc
May 2, 2006, 04:15 PM
i would loan out any gun thats left over after i arm everyone in my house so i would still have 4 to loan out a crappy bolt action .22 a springfeild 1903 with no sights, a nef pardner , and an eddystone 1917 thats about enough left for the pepole i trust with guns who either cant own them or only have a pistol.

justsurvivingincalifornia
May 2, 2006, 04:57 PM
I don't think anyone sugested this so far. Give them a old G.I. rifle with a bayonet and NO AMMO. Who's going to know except you.

V4Vendetta
May 2, 2006, 05:01 PM
"Give them a old G.I. rifle with a bayonet and NO AMMO. Who's going to know except you."


They will when they need it, pull the trigger & hear a empty click.:uhoh:

Red Tornado
May 3, 2006, 11:24 AM
In the spirit the question was asked.....

I'd arm kith and kin with milsurps, preferably bolt actions. Mosins, mausers, 1903, etc., and the most experienced gets the SKS. The Garand is mine, and I'll have pistols on me. You may get one, if you can demonstrate you know what you're doing.

Bolties were made for short learning curves. "You shoot. When he falls, pick up the rifle then you shoot."
RT

Dirty Bob
May 3, 2006, 02:14 PM
I think it was actually Charlton Heston who replied that all his guns were already in use, when the anti-gun Hollywierd types called during the 1992 riots.

I don't think I'd loan out guns to people who had no idea how (or when) to use them. Too many liability issues if they have an accident or shoot someone who was retreating, etc. Family members are another matter: I'd lend them a bolt action if they asked.

The baseball bats (aluminum) or machetes are a better idea for non-gunners, and I'd also suggest hand axes or hatchets. They're inexpensive, can be used as tools when boarding up windows, etc., and they can make a fearsome weapon, even with very little training. I suspect that the untrained would likely use a "cave man" swing to the head if they had to use a weapon in self-defense, and an ax is probably more effective than a light machete blade in that case.

Regards,
Dirty Bob

vynx
May 3, 2006, 05:28 PM
I actually have thought of this since we have some very nice neighbors in their 70's. I think a single shot break action shotgun is what I would lend. If someone doesn't have much experience I don't want to hand them anything that can jam or that they can shoot too far with (like an SKS).

By the way I saw that Cold Steel the knife company is now making an "unbreakable" baseball bat - it looked interesting.

vynx
May 3, 2006, 05:31 PM
http://www.coldsteel.com/92bs.html

Its called the "Brooklyn Smasher" list price $45.

I think I may have to get one of these!

Randy in Arizona
May 3, 2006, 05:48 PM
On the subject of machetes, don't order the cheap bulk ones. Go to the store and choose.;)

I had to go through about 50 El Salvador made machetes at Harbor Freight to find 6 that were straight, true to the handle and with solidly mounted handles.

I didn't bother to look at the Chinese made junk after looking over the first 3 or 4.

Didn't give a rat's butt about sharp, I worked them over on a beltsander till they are almost sharp enough to shave with.

Main advantage to the machete? Almost as quiet as a Gemtech product!

Carl N. Brown
May 3, 2006, 06:36 PM
Any loaner weapon would have to be simple and foolproof.
which is hard because fools can be so darned ingenious.

I would suggest a .357 like the Security Six and or
a short 12 gau double like the Baikal Bounty Hunter.
The shotgun could use Aguila minishells for the recoil
sensitive or those neighbors in their 70s.

Nothing tricky or sophisticated.

stevelyn
May 4, 2006, 11:31 AM
Nope. Anyone who knows me has gotten my preparedness speech at least once.

If they're too stupid and not prepare to look out for themselves, they're to stupid to continue polluting the gene pool.

Skunkabilly
May 4, 2006, 11:38 AM
I don't know. T'would become a liability, IMO. Like Derek says, they can come over and do chores. If they have medical experience.

72Rover
May 4, 2006, 03:37 PM
I was in just this situation not too long ago. (Cat 3 hurricane approaching, which quite fortutiously, dropped to Cat.1 just before landfall.) I offered my 10/22 to some close friends. Low power scope with see-through rings, 2 50 rd. mags. Husband/wife had been intending to purchase something, but.... Anyway, their son in the Army reserves was home on leave at the time, so I figured he might have a bit of weapons training.

As for folks recommending baseball bats, what you really need is a railroad brake stick. Think baseball bat, but rectangular in cross-section instead of round at the business end and tool-handle hickory instead of white ash. "Can't Break 'Em" is one brand name. Used for working stuck brake wheels or momentarily prying apart railroad cars that have come together with closed coupling knuckles.

As Mr. Natural sez, "The right tool for the right job."

Cheers

CrazyIrishman
May 4, 2006, 04:57 PM
I have a handful of friends and a bunch of others who are ONLY "acquaintances" .

Now,I would trust a friend with a loaner firearm or maybe something even nicer, but then I've known most of them (and their families)30+ years and then some. Since they already have their own guns it probably isn't necessary to loan anything. I also know without a doubt that they can operate a firearm SAFELY,and do maintenance when needed.

OTOH, I'm not so inclined to loan anything to an acquaintance due to past experience though it wasn't firearm related. If someone shows they can't take care of(or OPERATE) something simple and generally non-lethal, then I would be a fool to lend them a LETHAL object/instrument, etc....

When the zombie hordes are coming, there isn't time to be instructin' !

As for liability issues, its a no-brainer regarding friends. With the "others" I'd rather not go there!

BigO01
May 4, 2006, 08:12 PM
No go here also , if they aren't already trained and familar with it they probably don't have the determination to use it should they need to , so all I would be doing is arming my enemies .

Also if they did use it they would probably be stupid enough to not shut their traps and exercise their right to not speaking to the cops a good way for them to wind up in jail and for me to never see a gun again .

The only time I would even consider doing this is if it was a complete SHTF as in Nuclear war or some such event on a huge scale and I absolutely had to depend on strangers for my survival , and if I could I would be supervising them and trying to get in some training for them .

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