[Kaylee]

Well, as I was wondering on this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19618) I got to thinking about what I was peeved at in my present knockabout rifle. Which in turn got me to thinking about what I'd like.

Since the original thread seems kinda Remington-specific, I thought I'd open the new question up to the rest of y'all.. :)



what rifles out there have --

- a solid wood stock and enclosed magazine
(I don't like metal floorplates, convenient as they are)
- accuracy at least as good as a stock Remington 700
(first time I ever shot 1-hole groups. :D )
- relatively light weight
- 3-position safety.. Mauser/Springfield type particularly
- iron sights and scope bases
(I've been tempted to haul out my Springfield, but it'd be a crime to drill and tap it out, and I want to be able to use a scope)

To narrow it down, let's stay in .30-06, maybe .308.
Pretty "old world" craftsmanship is a plus, but since I've been carrying around a battered old 700, that's obviously not at the top of my list. It'll also get hauled around the backcountry enough that "artsy collectibles" would be a bad thing to trust me with. :)

Sporterized Mauser? Does Winchester have models with an enclosed magazine? Other ideas? :confused:



Thanks!

-K

[Chipperman]

You could buy a Springfield 03 that has already been sporterized, and avoid maiming yours. I've seen some pretty cheap ones for sale, b/c everyone wants original nowadays.

It doesn't fit your requirement of having an enclosed mag plate, though.

[Preacherman]

Take a look at the CZ range. In particular, I like the CZ 550 with Mannlicher stock... see http://www.cz-usa.com/_p/pdt.php?id=21. Yummy! (Scope rings are available from CZ.) The mag floorplate is a very sturdy design, and about as good as you'll find.

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

Well, Preacher beat me to it. CZ makes your rifle and at a decent price.

Regards,
Rabbit.

[BHP9]

Until recently one of the real sleapers of the gun world was the Sears Model 50 FN Mauser rifles that came in standard walnut, no checkering and deluxe walnut with chekcering.

These weapons until only a few years ago used to go for give away prices of only $200 bucks or so. Recently however you must look a lot harder to get them because they have gone up in price substantially. But do not despair if you look around you can often still get a deal on them. A colleague of mine recently bought one at an auction for only $300 bucks. Now that was still a wonderful deal for such an old fashioned quality rifle.

This is what you get.

1. An FN supreme 98 Mauser action.

( It is little known that when J.Fl Galef first imported these actions half went to High Standard that built the guns for Sears and the other half went to Roy Weahterby who built the very first Weatherby rifles on them.)

2. A three position safety could be added , it has a two postion safety.

3. A high quality barrel cut one grove at a time and hand honed to perfection giving outstanding accuracy.

4. MOst common calibers found are the 30-06 and .270. My own .270 deluxe grade shots 3 shots into 3/4 of an inch all day long.

5. A very reliable trigger of the open face type and all milled not stamped and enclosed as in the Remington 700.

6. A military sliding type floor plate that cannot be accidently tripped dumping your ammo on the ground.

7. Factory adjustable iron sights to be used as back up sights and can be used in the pouring down rain unlike scopes. I use weaver quick detachable rings that alows me to instantly detach the scope and it returns to 1/2 inch as to point of impact. Plenty good enough for big game hunting.

8. Old fashioned quality that is out of this world with no junk castings, sheet metal or plastic.

9. Heavy duty firing pin spring that speeds up lock time faster than Mauser military guns without sacrificiing the 98's Mausers legendary reliable ingnition systme that puts most modern speed lock guns to shame.

19. Heavy duty forged extractor that does not slip off of a stuck case and does not snap off like many modern guns extractors read Remington 700.

20. Positive controlled feeding that now after years and years has been copied by Winchester and Savage with only Remington remaining out of the loop and behind the times. I recently looked at what appeared to be a post 64 push feed Winchester and found much to my surprise it was now converted by Winchester to a controled feed gun complete with fixed ejector but retaining the post 64 small extractor. Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

21. Outstanding 98 Mauser System gas protection found in few other modern day rifles

You can buy todays modern made junk or pay a lot less and buy something of quality that could be modified to your other desires as time goes on and funds become available and you will end up with a work of art not a pile of sheet metal , castings and plastic.

[griz]

This is easier than you think. The Remington 700 ADL is pretty much an economy version of the 700 BDL. It has a wood stock (stained hardwood I think), a blind magazine, and is not finished as well as the BDL. Other than that the two are the same.

I don't know if they make them anymore, but they made truckloads in 30-06 and used ones are not hard to find.

[griz]

Sorry, I missed the requirement for a three position safety.

Nevermind.:(

[Phil in Seattle]

Remington 700 ADL with one of these smithed onto it
http://www.brownells.com/Images/Products/339000001.jpg

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=6668

[nextjoe]

Kaylee,

I don't think you'll get all of your requirements in any off-the-shelf rifle. :(

You specify a Mauser/Springfield style safety, but you also say you want scope bases. Mauser wing safeties are not really compatible with scope mounting. Did you mean Winchester Model 70 style safety?

Blind magazines are usually only found on bottom-of-the-line guns, and I can't think of any that have a three-position safety. I'm afraid you'll either have to compromise on your wants or go to a custom gunsmith. If you're willing to lay out enough dollars, you can get whatever your heart desires :D

Just FYI, I'm including a link to a thread on another forum with pictures of a custom Model 700 my gunsmith just finished. It's a blind-magazine 6mm with a three-position safety like a Model 70. This particular gun is a full-custom job that sells for "cubic dollars," but you could modify your existing 700 for a few hundred if you don't need the eye candy.

custom Rem. 700 (http://www.huntamerica.com/wwwthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB8&Number=363244&Forum=All_Forums&Words=J%20Belk&Match=Username&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=363244&Search=true#Post363244)

Best,
Joe

[Jim K]

That Remington 3-position safety on a 700 ADL sounds like just the ticket. And if you don't mind going back a bit, you could do the same thing with a Model 721/722, and not have to worry about the gun being bounced around. The resale value is not even worth discussing.

Jim

[Kaylee]

Hrm... on the other side, what about a Winchester with a new stock, reworked with a blind magazine and new trigger guard?
I admit I kinda like the claw extractors on the Winnies as well, but it's not a complete necessity..

Hrmm.. does anyone make aftermarket stocks and trigger guards like that, or would it all have to be custom work?

Finally.. I've read on here all sorts of talk about the relative safety of the gas handling systems of these rifles.. I understand how Remington works, but how does Winchester compare with Mausers?

[nextjoe]

Kaylee,

The new Classic Winchester 70s have a gas block which is held on by the extractor collar; it's supposed to improve the gas-handling abilities in the event of a case failure. Older Model 70s are notorious for their poor gas handling; gas would go right down the left locking lug raceway and into the shooter's eyes.

It's important to remember though that a case failure would be a very rare event unless you get stupid with handloads, and you should be wearing safety glasses while shooting anyways. I don't lose any sleep over shooting Pre-64s because I protect myself and don't try to make a .30-06 into a .300 Win Mag with overpressure handloads. Besides, it's not like I'm all that pretty to begin with :D

Personally, I wouldn't buy a new Model 70; they're not holding tolerances particularly well. It's not at all uncommon for the rear bridge to be WAY out of spec, which makes scope zeroing a problem. I'd go with either a CZ 550 or one of the new Montana Rifle Company 1999 actions. Both are basically Mauser 98/ Win. Model 70 hybrids. The Montana action will even fit a Model 70 stock with only a few alterations.

Any of the semi-production stock makers might be able to make a blind-magazine Model 70 stock pretty easily; they'd just have to do the action inletting and not the bottom metal. It would be a special-order, probably, but a lot cheaper than a full custom stock.

Check out the Montana action at http://www.montanarifleman.com/model1999.html

I haven't handled one personally yet, but every report I've heard has been very positive. Excellent gas handling was one of the design goals, btw.

Best,
Joe

[Onslaught]

a solid wood stock and enclosed magazine
- accuracy at least as good as a stock Remington 700
- relatively light weight
- 3-position safety.. Mauser/Springfield type particularly
- iron sights and scope bases


SAVAGE 11G!

http://www.savagearms.com/images/centerfire/hunter/11g.jpg

Available in lots of calibers, including .308 and 30-06.
Solid wood stock with internal 4 round mag
Light weight at around 6.5#,
3 position safety (don't know about "Mauser/Springfield" type)
Iron sights
drilled & tapped for a scope.
Or if you wanted a "scout mount", B-Square is the OEM for the Savage Scout scope mount.

:)

[Brad Johnson]

I second the Savage 11G. With a little patience you should be able to find one NIB for well under $400.

Brad

[Kaylee]

Thanks!

Dang I wish I liked the Savage.. somehow the ones I've handled never really "felt" right in my hands, don't know why... hrmm..

Yow.. spendy, but the Montana thing looks pretty darn cool! Are they out and in use enough to get any kind of reports on 'em yet? Or is it all keyboard expertise so far?

I reckon the gas thing ain't a *big* deal since I don't reload, and wouldn't load real hot if I ever learned... but since I don't make a habit of wearing safety glasses when I go woodswalking the extra insurance would be nice..

Hrmm.. so if in a failure the gas is directed down into the magazine, what happens then? Does it blow out the bottom of the floorplate? Or is it contained? (seeing as how I wanted the blind magazine 'cause I like to rest the rifle on my offhand there, that's kinda a concern to.. :o)

And finally.. the CZ. Is the safety on the 550 like that on the 452? The little "push forward to lock" lever that holds the bolt innards back?

Thanks again!

-K

[Djkost]

Hi, new this forum. I was thinking about what you were looking for. The rifle that comes to mind is the remington 788. I know its out of production but if a used one is around. The only thing is that it has a magazine.

[Art Eatman]

Djkost, welcome aboard! Any number can play...:)

Kaylee, I've yet to hear a first-hand experience of a cartridge case letting go. I've heard the occasional second-hand stories; maybeso two or three during the last 50+ years. It usually involved somebody trying for velocities in excess of those given in most loading manuals...

Sure, you can reload a case so many times that it starts to separate, but it's easy enough to either put your own limit on how many loads you run through, or just do the internal "scratch test" to check for incipient separation.

Art

[nextjoe]

Kaylee,

Check your PMs. I sent you a link to a review my gunsmith wrote of the Montana actions. He's VERY impressed, and he builds $10,000 guns. They are available right now in long action right hand, chrome moly or stainless. Left handed and short actions are on the way.

The CZ 550 (which I love) has a Remington style side safety, back for safe and forward for fire. On my nearly-completed custom .416 Rigby, it's been replaced with a three-position Model 70 style safety from Jim Wisner. I'll send you a pic if you like.

Best,
Joe

[Nightcrawler]

I've not much experience with bolt guns, save the Nagant M44 I owned for a short while. What would a three-position safety on a bolt rifle do? I mean there's SAFE, and there's FIRE, right? What's the third position for?

Is there something about bolt rifles where regular SAFE isn't safe enough for carrying through the woods, or if you drop the rifle? Do you need a REALLY SAFE, a SAFE, and a FIRE? :confused:

[nextjoe]

Nightcrawler,

On a three-position safety, there's safe with bolt locked closed, safe with bolt NOT locked closed, and fire. The safe position with the bolt unlocked allows the gun to be unloaded without taking it off safe.

On some guns, like older Rem 700 ADLs (which don't have floorplates and DO have a bolt-locking safety), the only way to unload the gun is to take the safety off and run the rounds through the action. The potential for an ND goes way up.

So, three-position safeties make loading/unloading safer. They also look better, I think. :D

Best,
Joe

[Kaylee]

nextjoe -- yes, thank you!

Since it was so helpful though, I'd like to share:

clicketyclick (http://www.serveroptions.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=005152;p=)

Thanks again!

-K