[Kaylee]

So here's the aim.. a light, self-loading carbine in a relatively heavy chambering for carry-lots-shoot-little defense in Big Mean Nasty territory. (Namely, AK backcountry)

Things I've considered so far...

short 870 (prolly the best practical option, though I don't really like shotguns and don't shoot them well)
44 mag 1892 (I *love* the package, but from reading on here and TFL it looks like chamber pressures are too high for reliable service in scary loads)
Ruger 44 semi carbine.. same concerns as above, plus after a couple Minis (even a good one) I'm kinda soured on Ruger semi longarms.
Marlin 45-70 (another practical choice, though again I'm not partial to the handling of Marlins -- I shoot Winchesters much better)
One of those Lounden-Boomers in an AR package. Makes sense I guess, but I'd rather not go "tactical" and really would prefer to go a little cheaper if possible.


So.. my ideal (which prolly doesn't exist) would be something like the following:


Comparable weight, length, and flat profile of a 20" round barrel 1892 Winchester carbine, although with a lengthened receiver.
45-70 or comparable chambering
Tube-magazine fed self loading action. Top or side eject unimportant.
gas-adjustment mechanism (FAL-ish) to tune rifle to load.
Express-type iron sights, possibly with a mount for scout and/or (if side eject) glass.
Stainless/synthetic finish, and ported/padded all to heck to make recoil less punishing


I know the Marlin prolly comes closest, and with some flattening of the furniture and porting of the barrel is likely what I'll end up with.. but other ideas are most welcome. :)

[rbernie]

You can get the '94 in 375, and they supposedly made a few in 450 Marlin.

[LooseGrouper]

What about a Saiga 12 gauge with slugs? It's a little AK-ish, but definately sporterized (no pistol grip, etc). 12 gauge slugs do a nice job of "thumping" stuff at close range.

Since you're in Tennesee, I think you can buy one...but I don't really keep up with import restrictions and whatnot.

LG

EDIT: Now that I think about it, just about any standard semiauto shotgun would do the same thing, but most non-Saigas would actually meet your "tubular magazine" stipulation.

[hso]

AK Fish and Wildlife supposedly recommend a 3in magnum slug from a short shotgun. The pump addresses the severe conditions for reliability. Loaded with Brenneke slugs you should get good penetration. Add a good selection of shot and you should have a good all purpose survival weapon that you can defend yourself and feed yourself with.

OTOH, the Alaskian CoPilot or Guide sounds like what you're suggesting. http://www.wildwestguns.com/CoPilot_And_Guide_Rifles/body_copilot_and_guide_rifles.html
http://www.wildwestguns.com/CoPilot_And_Guide_Rifles/copilot_and_guide_rifles.html
http://www.turnbullrestoration.com/bigboreclassic.htm


The only downside may be that the heavy lever gun would best be suited for dangerous game (Griz/Polar Bear) and won't do as much as the shotgun for feeding you.

[roscoe]

What makes you think that the .44 would be unreliable in a lever gun? I have a .45 Winchester Trapper and I put strings of heavy Buffalo Bore and Double-Tap 300-325 grain loads (equal to or greater than any .44 mag rounds) through without problem. It certainly is light and handy, although it is not an auto-loader.

[JohnKSa]

Rossi makes a lever rifle in .454--the Puma. That's about the smallest rifle package I've seen with 45/70 performance.

Perhaps an autoloader shotgun with slugs?

[Preacherman]

The problem with a .44 Magnum carbine (lever-action or semi-auto) is that the hot loads (e.g. Garrett Hammerheads, etc.) are beyond SAAMI maximum-length specs for the round. I spoke with Garrett about using Hammerheads in a Marlin 1894, and he advised bluntly against it. He said that the rifle could handle the pressures OK, but that feeding was a problem unless the action was worked over, and even that couldn't guarantee feeding the long rounds all the time. He suggested the Federal CastCore 300gr. load as a "biggest" round for that carbine.

The .45-70 Marlin 1895 doesn't have the same problem because it's built on a larger action.

One of the nicest short-and-handy "stomper" rifles I've ever seen was a one-off conversion of a Garand to .35 Whelen (http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/35w.html). The rifle was re-barreled with a new 20" barrel from one of the top makers, and the action tuned by someone who understood Garands so that it fed and functioned OK. The guy who had it swore by its reliability, and reckoned that with 8 rounds of .35 Whelen, he should be able to take care of anything in AK. I haven't used that caliber, but I see no reason to assume he was wrong.

[rockstar.esq]

I guess I'm missing something but isn't this why the 500 S&W was invented?

[Warren]

If you are not married to a tube mag how about a Tromix .458 SOCOM? (http://www.tromix.com/Tromix_458.htm) or the .50 Beowulf (http://www.alexanderarms.com/beowulf.htm)

Light, handy, can be accessorized however you want and sounds like it is a lot of fun to shoot to boot.


edit: missed your last bullet point for things you've already considered
and again to add the new link. .

But you can make it non-tactical by putting on different colored plastic bits.......

[Gordon]

I have a beautiful little, Lyman reciever sighted 1978 produced Model 92 Browning that will handle Garret 320 grain .44 ammo IF you are up to it! I reccomend 300 grain Hornady XTP ammo that hits 1650 FPS for ANY animal in US under 50 yards or so. It only has a couple scratches on stock from being hunted with a few times for hogs. $400 takes it dude!;)

[Jim Watson]

Jap Browning-Winchester 1886 carbine .45-70?

[Logan5]

Digging through my archives for an article on M1 carbine redone for .50 AE... I'm sure someone was doing it, I just forget who.

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

That would be Tim LeGendre of LeMag up in Michigan somewhere. Haven't heard anything of him in maybe 7 years now. He converted M1 carbines to .50AE and .45Win Mag. Trouble was, the wrist couldn't take it and he had problems with recoil.

He also built a Garand into a monster chambered in .338 Win Mag that fed through BAR mags. He chambered an AR based rifle in a straight-walled .45 caliber round that beat 45-70 terminal ballistics, too.

I haven't even found a solid Google hit on him until now.
http://www.pmulcahy.com/sporting_rifles/us_sporting_rifles_j-m.htm

and in Cooper's Commentaries, Vol. 7, No. 1 January, 1999

====================

On a more positive note, our own Tony Rumore (Tromix) built up the .502 based M1 about 3 years ago and wrote about it here.

Regards,
Rabbit.

[only1asterisk]

Kaylee,

There is nothing wrong with the winchester '92 repro's. I like the 20" Short Rifle version with 44 Mag 300 grainers at 1600fps. The winchester made some '94 Big Bores in 44 marlin too, but the '92 is much trimmer package that I'd be more likely to actually have with me.

David

[roscoe]

The problem with a .44 Magnum carbine (lever-action or semi-auto) is that the hot loads (e.g. Garrett Hammerheads, etc.) are beyond SAAMI maximum-length specs for the round.
Not to get afield here, but I believe that the Buffalo Bore loads equal the Garrett Hammerheads in power, and are fine to use in leverguns. I can only speak from the experience of the .45 Trapper, not the .44, but it feeds all the hottest loads I have fed it, including the 325 grain Buffalo Bore and the 335 grain DoubleTap that zips along at 1650 fps.

My understanding is that the Marlin leverguns do not have the rifling to stabilize these heavy .44 loads, but the Winchesters do. Go figure.

At any rate, I believe that a lot of power can be had from a compact carbine in .44 or .45. A lot of these loads equal what traditionally was found from the .45-70.

[pete f]

See if you can find a Ithaca police model 37. they have different feel than a 870, will last for ever. and will handle some serious horsepower in the form of slugs.

The Japanese made model 1886 or 71 will finction very well. They are a bit big and heavy but are serious game proven a thousand times over.

A Remington Pump 7600 in 35 whelen or rebarrel a 30-06 to 338-06. The 35 whelen in a carbine 7600 is something to deal with. It will do the job.

A japanese made model 95 winchester in .405 Win or a 30-06 rebarreled up to a whelen, scovill hawk or 375 Hawk. serious medicine.

Of course an off the rack 1895 Marlin in 450 mag is a serious gun too. with factory (althou not run of the mill) ammo.

[db_tanker]

As Warren asked, if your not married to the tube magazine idea, then you might want to think about seeing if DSA can set you up with a SA-58 carbine in 338 Federal or 358 Winchester...16"-18" barrel with dang near as many goodies to mount as a Mattel, and of course you get your FAL-style adjustable gas system. Magazines aren't an issue, just might have to take the old dremel to the lips of them as you buy them.


And there is another thing to think about...you can get a second upper chambered in the traditional 308 or any other chambering using the 308 as the parent case...but I am not sure you would want to lay out that kind of cash for having two diffrent weapons systems.

D

[Brian Williams]

Look for either a Marlin 1894 or a Rossi in 45 colt, when handloaded will do more with less pressure than a 43(44) mag. Also as has been mentioned that Rossi has put out the 92 in 454. Go to leverguns.com and find some of the articles that Paco has written about the 92 in 454. Also the Taurus Thunderbolt is coming, a pump 45 colt with a 20" barrel, should be very fast.

[owen]

There was a guy at SHOT selling Garands converted to 458 Win Mag.

[cookekdjr]

Here it is:

http://www.gunblast.com/Paco_Legacy_454.htm

I believe you can also get this gun in .480 Ruger.

Either would be perfect. I'd prefer the 454 version to use 45LC's for plinking and short-range deer work.

-David

[only1asterisk]

The 45 Colt would be great from a '92, but the rim is even smaller than the 44-40's. It's never happened to me or someone I knew well, but I could see the extractor pulling through that little bit of brass. I wouldn't use full power .454 in one of the Puma rifles. They have made the already strong action action stronger, but the design just can't handle the 60,000psi loads.

David

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Actually Kaylee, someone does make something close to your ideal gun although I have never had my hands on one, so everything I am about to repeat is simply the marketing from that company and not REAL information.

Leitner-Wise .499 rifle that is based on the AR15 platform.

It uses a gas piston system that vents excess gas forward of the handguard and is automatically self regulating (it is a pretty ingenious little system - it is basically a small cup on the op rod over the gas interface so that when the bolt carrier is all the way back, the cup exposes the interface and allows any excess gas not needed for function to vent into the air behind the front sight base). The neat thing is if you dump half a cup of gravel into your upper, the system siphons off more gas until there is either no more left or until it has enough oomph to overcome the extra friction.

Caliber is .499LW which has ballistics similar to .45-70 (at least out to 300yds)

Magazine fed with 7 and 12 round magazines currently. There is also a development of a quad stack magazine that would be the same size as the 12 round mag; but would be thicker and hold 24 rounds.

Supposedly recoil is about like a 20ga. shotgun.

You can find some reviews of the older .499LW that the Coast Guard adopted for boarding/stopping marine vessels. It used direct gas impingement though and apparently reliability of that system wasn't great.

[Leif]

Well, I'm not an Alaskan guide, nor do I play one on the Internet, but here's a suggestion that fits some of your parameters and should work fine for the tasks that you specified: Enfield No. 5 "Jungle Carbine."

It's light and short (20" barrel, IIRC), un-tactical, simple to maintain, excellent aperture sights, and 10 rounds of .303Brit delivered via the fastest bolt action there is should suffice for bear (at least it seems to for a number of Alaskans and Canadians). I didn't find the recoil too problematic on the one I used to have, but a slip-on pad probably would dampen much of the recoil if it is an issue. They still run fairly cheaply these days ($300-$400 range for decent examples), so you'd have money in the budget for refinishing and restocking as you see fit.

If you don't mind my asking, why do you not shoot shotguns well? A decent slug gun probably is the best solution to your problem, and I think .44mag carbines might be a little underpowered for backcountry Alaska, at least from what I've read. Like I said, I'm no guide.

[Powderman]

Kaylee, I have the perfect solution at relatively low cost.

Remington 870 or Mossberg, with ghost ring sights (or bead if you prefer), 20" barrel, biggest magazine tube you can find, with the Knoxx CopStock, able to take 3" 1 1/2 oz. or 000 buck.

I have cycled these through my Defender, although I have the non-folding stock (CompStock) version. Absolutely SWEET to shoot! Recoil is cut to 12 gauge trap load levels--almost NOTHING! And, at 50 yards, I was cutting cloverleaf groups with those big 1 1/2 oz. slugs.

Check out the CompStock and the CopStock at:

http://www.knoxx.com/NewStyleKnoxx/Products/COPstock.htm

[WYO]

If you can't do the 870, try a Browning BLR in .358 stoked with Nosler Partitions or Barnes Triple Shocks.

[Leif]

Here's a thread to read:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208957

[Powderman]

the BAR in .338 Win Mag, with the BOSS system installed.

This rifle, with BOSS (Ballistic Optimized Shooting System, IIRC), feels like a .308 when fired from the bench. No kidding! It's sweet, and that .338 will thump rather well, I think.

[Preacherman]

jfi, thanks for the link! Hmmm. . . a .35 Whelen semi-auto, 4+1 rounds - daddy like! :D

Add a 10-round magazine like this one (http://www.gungarage.com/remingtonacc.htm) (scroll down for the 10-rounder), and you'd be well set up for grizzly.

[Kaylee]

Neat ideas all! Thank you!

I do have a little .22 pistol I got for the "food getting" part.. between that, snare wire, a block of datrex, and my own plentiful fat reserves I don't think I'd be hurting too much for food. :p

I'm more looking for an "eek!" rifle if stuck in the backcountry. The McCann M1 sure looks really cool, though beyond my means now (I have to admit, Oleg's little 8-ball did come to mind as an inspiration as well, though it seems a touch clunky). The SX2 from Winchester also looks interesting, though I've not tried one.

Hrmm..

The commercial BARs look interesting.. I don't suppose anyone makes straight-wrist stocks for 'em? Or tried 'em with scout glass?

[Hypnogator]

OK, FWIW, I'll throw in my $.02 worth.

First of all, I second the Rem 870 and Ithaca posters, for the reasons they specify.

Personally, I'd go with a Marlin 1895 in .45-70, .450 Marlin, or .457 Wild West Magnum. I'd want it in stainless, too.

The gentleman who suggested the SMLE Jungle Carbine is on the right track, but I'd take a serious look at Gibbs' version that holds 5 rds of .45-70.

If you're committed to an autoloader, I'd go with the Springfield SU-16, short-barrelled version of the M-14. Twenty rds of .308 at your fingertips and instant magazine changes make it potent bear medicine. Good enough to hunt for survival with, too.

[JShirley]

Kaylee,

This may be about the last thing you'd choose, but I've done some thinking about this subject, since I plan on finding myself up in Alaska. For you, your needs are a light, fast-handling, compact firearm that is so portable that you'll never leave it in the plane or cabin. If it's sturdy, easy/fast to build up, and reasonably lost cost, those are all pluses, too. :)

Even if it's not a phased-plasma rifle in the forty watt range, with a purty wood stock.

For close range bear defense, an 18" GR Mossberg or Remington with an M4 stock, loaded with slugs would be dandy. This'll give you something almost as handy getting into and out of cockpits as a pistol grip version, but with the added goodness of shoulder-mounted fire. Add a sidesaddle, and you have 4 or more (depending on model) extra shells that stay with the weapon.

If you only wanted "just one" weapon, that sidesaddle could be holding #6 shot. :) (Or pepper loads?)

You could also mount a light, on the barrel or integral to the slide. Night-time defense against dangerous game is perhaps the most legitimate use I can imagine of white weapon lights.

John

[Leif]

Preacherman, my pleasure.

Kaylee, AFAIK, the BAR never was produced with a straight grip stock, only the BLR.

Hypnogator, here's a review of the Gibbs .45-70 Enfield conversion: http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/kingandcountry/index.asp. It's largely positive, but I also have read negative accounts about the quality of some of the Gibbs rifles and I am uncertain as to how well the Enfield action would handle hot .45-70 loads. I've never handled one personally, so somebody more knowledgeable than I can tackle that topic, as I'm hesitant to speak ill of a rifle of which I have no personal knowledge.

OTOH, does anybody know if these actually were imported or not?

http://www.raacfirearms.com/Saiga_9-02.htm

That might be a solution.

[Third_Rail]

FWIW, Rossi no longer makes the .454 levergun.

[roscoe]

Have you looked at any of the Wild West Co-Pilot or Guide lever guns? They shoot some pretty serious ammo (.457 Wild, .45-70, .50 Alaskan) and are around 6.5 pounds. They are pretty pricey, though.

Some day . . .