civilian .223 - What is closest to M193?


PDA






goon
May 4, 2006, 03:10 AM
Are there any commercial loads that are roughly comparable to M193? I have been reading that when the 55 grain bullet from this load hits it is known to penetrate a short distance then turn sideways and sort of tear apart at the crimp cannelure. Do the 55 grain FMJ loads from Winchester and Federal act the same way?

BTW - I have looked around a little on AR-15.com but I don't have a payed email account so I can't register over there to ask my questions.

If you enjoyed reading about "civilian .223 - What is closest to M193?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Don't Tread On Me
May 4, 2006, 05:20 AM
Winchester Q3131

heypete
May 4, 2006, 05:31 AM
Well, you can always get Federal XM193, which is literally the same stuff that they issue to troops. Well, the "X" denotes some minor out-of-mil-spec thing (or so I've been told) like primers not having the sealant properly applied and so forth. Not a big deal for civilian shooters, but for a military who doesn't know where the ammo will end up, how it'll be stored, or how long it'll be there, it's a bit more important.

XM193 is made in the Lake City plant for the military by Federal, and Federal sells a bunch of it to the civilian market. Great stuff, good brass for reloading, and runs a bit hotter than normal .223.

Winchester Q3131 (USA made) and Q3131A (Israeli made) are both excellent cartridges, and are -- to the best of my knowledge -- made to the same spec.

That said, if you're looking for two-legged critter stopping power, having a controlled-expansion round like Hornady TAP, Black Hills ammo, or one of the variety of softpoints on the market may give you more consistent and reliable results.

For paper punching, there's a wide range of inexpensive plinking ammo made both here and abroad.

Onmilo
May 4, 2006, 08:25 AM
Just remember every bullet performs differently in different mediums at different temperatures and different velocities.
They are supposed to perform that way under perfect conditions.
Most never perform exactly as planned.

One big plus I have found with the civilian offerings over military is they are held to tighter standards and provide better overall accuracy and consistancy in velocity.
This comparison is for standard ammunition not Match specification ammunition.

rbernie
May 4, 2006, 10:21 AM
Well, you can always get Federal XM193, which is literally the same stuff that they issue to troops.Minor thread hijack - I didn't think that we were issuing M193 anymore.... ????

P0832177
May 4, 2006, 11:55 AM
I am sure that you do not need to pay at AR15.com to register and thus ask questions.

But, right now there is a "shortage" of first run ammo. What Federal is selling is essentially second tier ammo.
XM193 boxed and XM193PD bulk packed.

Bartholomew Roberts
May 4, 2006, 12:30 PM
XM193PD is not the same quality ammo as XM193, although it comes from the same place. There is a reason XM193PD is labeled "For Training Purposes Only".

Both Winchester Q3131, Q3131A and Federal XM193 are reported to be the equivalent of M193 ammo in ballistic and terminal performance. Howeve, you might read the Ammo Oracle to learn more about that performance... even M193 fails to yaw as often as 25% of the time.

TexasRifleman
May 4, 2006, 12:56 PM
As Bartholomew says, Get thee to the Oracle.....

Ammo Oracle (http://ammo-oracle.com/)

asknight
May 4, 2006, 01:08 PM
P0832177, you don't have to pay for an ar15.com account, but you have to have a paid email account, such as that from your ISP. You can't register with an anonymous account such as those from free email providers. Hotmail, Yahoo, GMail, just to name a few.

goon
May 4, 2006, 01:56 PM
Yep.
Since I generally post either from a public library or from someone else's computer I don't have an ISP.
That is just how it is until I move and get my computer set back up again next month.

dmckean44
May 4, 2006, 02:05 PM
Minor thread hijack - I didn't think that we were issuing M193 anymore.... ????

It was my understanding those that are issued regular M16s are still issued M193.

mnblaster
May 5, 2006, 12:03 PM
Ar15.com is a poor choice for reference. There are many sites including this one where you don't have to wade through the wanna-be's guesses. Many times rifle manufacturers are aware of types of ammo and how closely they compare to the ammo in the field.

mustanger98
May 5, 2006, 04:55 PM
This is just be, but when I shoot M193 ball, it's Sellier&Bellot and it says M193 on the light blue box. I haven't shot Winchester's and Federal's offering to know what they'll do. I've only shot S&B's M193 on paper and busting clays on the 100yd berm so I don't really know that I'd trust it to perform in tissue as they say M193 is supposed to.

Hawkmoon
May 5, 2006, 05:35 PM
It was my understanding those that are issued regular M16s are still issued M193.
I believe the M193 is issued only to support and rear echelon troops (mostly reserve and NG units) that still have the very old, original M16s with 1:14 or 1:12 barrels. They must shoot the 55gr loads because the M855 62gr bullets out of those very slow barrels isn't accurate beyond about 50 meters.

Pretty much everyone gets M855 -- or one of the newer, heavier rounds if their rifles have the 1:7 barrels to handle it.

chopinbloc
May 5, 2006, 06:10 PM
m855 is the current standard. a couple years ago there was some m193 still being used for training but i haven't seen it since. i only saw two m16a1s during a year in afghanistan and those were with airforce troops. i do not believe that the army (even guard and reserve troops) has deployed ANY a1s to combat in years, likewise for the marine corps. it is true that m855 should not be fired through an a1's 1:12" barrel except in a combat emergency because the heavier (62gr vs. 55gr) bullet is not sufficiently stabilized by such a slow rate of twist. this is also the reason that the army does not deploy these old rifles to combat areas - if a soldier depleted his basic load, he could not continue to fight with scrounged ammunition. regardless of whether a troop is issued an m16a2, m4 or m249 SAW he is issued m855 ammunition. there was one case where i met a soldier (tx guard infantry) who had been issued what appeared to be ss109 (same spec as m855) from a foreign manufacturer - i have no idea why he had it. i also spoke with some sf troops who had the newish 77gr black hills load for their special purpose rifles. bottom line: 99.9% are issued m855.

as for the original topic, if you want ammunition that performs as well or better than m193 in tissue, most softpoints will do fairly well and even most fmj assuming they have an open base, fairly thin jacket and a cannelure. both types need healthy velocity though softpoint will usually work at a lower velocity. many criticize some of the "tactical" loads as being poor penetrating varmint rounds. i use one magazine of federal american eagle 50gr hp for home defense even though it is a shallow penetrator because i live in an apartment. all my other mags are kept full of m855. if you want a load that will perform on paper as close as possible to m193, it's just gonna take some experimentation on your part.

army_eod
May 5, 2006, 07:20 PM
New Wolf brass cased M193 NATO. I will let you know in a few days how it works in my Rock River carbine. I can tell you that my carbine really likes the M855 green tip. It is about as accurate with it as with BH 68 gr match. As someone said, each rifle will have its own personality and shoot certain loads better than others.

www.ar15.com has lots of ammo info. The Wolf brass case ammo is made in Serbia.

If you enjoyed reading about "civilian .223 - What is closest to M193?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!