[brufener]

The guns I am looking at are the S&W j-frame (probably 442) and the Kahr PM9.

I know there are tradeoffs between the two, but right now I am just trying to get an idea of which is easier to carry. I take ease of carry to mean comfort, "printing" or lack thereof, and ease in draw.

I am interested in people's opinions as to which is easier to carry in a front pants pocket (with a pocket holster of course).

Is there a tradeoff depending on the kind of pants you wear (e.g. PM9 is easier in jeans, but 442 is easier in slacks)?

Thanks.

[billybob]

Any J frame Smith WITHOUT the goofy underlug will be fairly easy to conceal. I carry front pocket in holster. Jeans.
Don't like autos for CCW as they depend on good primers. Not all primers work all the time.

[News Shooter]

I usually wear dress pants and found it just didn't work very well. The width of the cylinder is just a little too much. I just switched to a MAK and I think it's going to work. I would still prefer the instant reliability of a revolver though.

[Erich]

I've pocket-carried J-frames for years. I recently switched to a Kahr P9 Covert and have been delighted. It is thinner and prints less than the J-frames. It draws well, and I'm convinced it's safe in a pocket holster.

I hope these photos are of interest. Remember that this is the P9 Covert (with the P9's 3.5" barrel and longer slide, and the PM9's shorter grip frame); the PM9 is smaller still . . . and the Rohrbaugh is smaller than that!

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/Erich505/NewKahr3feb6004.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/Erich505/NewKahr3feb6003.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/Erich505/NewKahr3feb6006.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/Erich505/15oct05047.jpg

[brufener]

Those photos are great, thanks for posting them.

It does seem like the general trend is towards pocket carry autos.

The Rohrbaugh would be sweet, it is supposed to be as small as the P3AT. Unfortunately, it is a little more than I am willing to spend.

I'm working this summer where I have to where a tie and slacks (and sometimes a jacket). I have currently have a Taurus Millenium Pro Pt111 that I can carry iwb. However, I don't find iwb to be very comfortable, and although my holster does allow for tuckable carry, it doesn't seem very fast/easy. Thus my interest in pocket handguns.

[cookekdjr]

Khar's are wonderful...except when they fail so miserably that they are re-called. I know some people's work exceptionally well, and when they work, they are near perfect (designed for +p+ ammo, polygonal rifling, exceptionally accurate, lifetime warranty, etc). But Khar lets just enough lemons out the door to scare me into thinking that if I did buy one, mine would be one of the bad ones that fails (and at the exact moment I need it the most).
Maybe I'm supertitious, but for me, the ultimate in pocket carry is a S&W j-frame. Low-tech, 5 rounds, and kicks like a mule. But I trust it to go "bang" every time, and, so far, every j-frame I've fired has been flawless.
I say, get a 642 and don't look back.

[h_tolley]

I prefer a snibby with an internal hammer. Nothing to snag, can fire from inside a pocket if necessary. The alloy ones are very light -- pocket or ankle carry is almost not noticeable. That being said, I plan on getting a really small back up 9mm, just to have a choice. :)

[Sistema1927]

I alternate between a 642 and a PM9, both carried in the same Desantis Nemesis pocket holster. I find that I can conceal both equally well, regardless of style of pants (jeans, shorts, dockers, dress slacks), and it just depends on what my mood is as to which one I carry.

I do find that when I travel by air, and need to declare my unloaded weapon, that the preferred weapon is the 642, but only due to the fact that showing it unloaded at the ticket counter is far simpler.

IMHO, you won't make a mistake with either weapon.

[Slip Shooter]

I pocket CCW either a S&W M642 .38 Special or Kahr CW9 9mm. To me they are both great pocket carry pieces.

The biggest problem, for me, is finding pants with deep enough pockets. I find Dockers and Izod's to be very good , especially the pleated ones. The Izod 's have a little deeper pocket and are fast becoming my preferred pantaloon.

[MICHAEL T]

of this choice the J frame just can't beat .Remember the depenability of a wheel gun . A hammerless J frame airweight is near perfect.

[ChristopherG]

I had to make this exact same decision a couple of years back. I went to a gunstore that would let me put them both in my pockets to see what felt like what and looked like what. I suggest you try the same.

[HankB]

Pay attention to what "cookekdjr" wrote.

I had a Kahr P9 - make that a POS9 - which had so many things wrong with it Kahr eventually gave up trying to fix it and replaced it.

I traded the brand new replacement P9 immediately ("Once burned, twice shy") and got a G26 which works, but isn't really good for pocket carry.

The Kahr P9 was a nice package, but a pistol that's undependable is worthless.

My "always" pocket gun is now an S&W 340SC I slicked up myself, fitted with Crimson Trace lasergrips. I like it a lot.

[Erich]

My P9 Covert is very dependable. I agree, reliability is not negotiable. FWIW, Kahr's customer service seems to be held in high regard by the folks on the Kahr Club section of GT.

I also do as Sistema does: when I travel by air, I take a revo. Not only is it easier to check in, it's cheaper - if it gets lost, stolen or eaten by the baggage handlers, it won't take up as much of the pathetically small baggage reimbursement to replace.

[drdirk]

I like the SW ppk/s for pocket carry. Mine is very reliable. Same goes for the Bersa Thunder. Both great guns and he profile is narrower than the j frame. Nothing against a j frame, have one as well and it is lighter but like the narrow proflie and I can shoot the .380 Auto much more accurately.

[brufener]

how about a .380

No offense, and not to start a caliber war but the 380 doesn't have quite enough power for me.

Perhaps I would feel differently if I was carrying it as a backup gun, but the pocket carry will be my only carry.

Not to get too off topic, but sometimes I read the "caliber wars" and wonder if 9mm is even enough, let alone 38 special. One idea I've had is to get a 357 snub, and carry it with an anemic 357 load (like WWB 110 gr JHP - about 400 ft-lbs at the muzzle of a 4" barrel). Then again, police used 38 special for a long time and it seemed to work ok. I don't expect to see as much trouble as a police officer sees today, or saw 30 years ago.

[cookekdjr]

carry the LSWCHP 158gr +p "FBI load". It out-penetrates most .357 loads, but with less recoil (don't get me wrong; the recoil of this load in a 642 will be like a baseball bat on your palm, but at least its less than the .357 loads :uhoh: ).

[Dollar An Hour]

My favorite pocket gun to carry is the Kel-Tec P32, and I was gonna recommend a P3AT but your caliber basement is 9mm.

Unless I've got the right pants/shorts with big pockets AND a belt for support, then my Airweight J-Frame loaded with 158gr LSWCHPs is annoyingly heavy in my pocket and a bit bulky. This is in a quality Kramer pocket holser too.

Having handled the PM9, I think it'd pocket carry better than a J-frame. It's narrower and that matters the most.

Alot easier to get a Kahr with night sights than installing one on your J-frame front sight too.

[TOADMAN]

If I need to CC something smaller/lighter than a G26 - I go with the S&W 642 revolver...For me, the small pistols ( (15oz or lighter) aren't reliable enough for CC..

[redneckrepairs]

i have a fairly late made ( 04) pm 9 that has been utterly relyable , its just the thing for the front pocket of my wranglers i like snub's too but not enough to put up with the extra width other than in a coat pocket

[Manedwolf]

Waiting to see how Skyy Industries' new pocket 9 this summer comes out. Supposedly going to be pretty much the exact same dimensions as the Rohrbach, 12oz, but $600 less!

I just heard just as many stories of failure as of success regarding the Kahr, so didn't consider that reliable enough for CC.

[cslinger]

Jframe without a question.

[orionengnr]

and own one of each.
I have had a number of j-frames (currently a 340PD) and bought the Kahr PM9in spite of the horror stories I have read.

My PM9 has been so perfect that I am now looking for a P45 to supplement my CHL selection. (G-23 for sale or trade).

Oh, and I've read a bunch of horror stories about Kimbers and 3"-3 1/2" 1911s. I'll be picking up my 3 1/2" Kimber CDP tomorow :neener:

[atlctyslkr]

There's just somthing about the snubby ... It's reliable and powerful for it's size. If you have one in 357 you've got quite a compact bit of firepower. I treat my S&W 649 like my Amex card. Don't leave home without it! I've had cops say "where can I get one of those, that's a cool piece"

[cslinger]

Like I said I am a small revo for carry kind of guy. They just work for me and give me far more confidence then any of the itty bitty semi autos. My thoughts are if you end up in a situation that you need to use it chances are it will be near or at contact distance and likely in an awkward position. Semi-autos are much more susceptible to user induced malfunctions in these situations.

I am not saying a small pistol is bad just that when it comes right down to it I am in the small revolver camp. I am not sure when or how it happened but I have really gravitated to revolvers, especially for SD.

Chris

http://www.myfishingpictures.com/img/094642.JPG

http://www.myfishingpictures.com/img/080701.JPG

http://www.myfishingpictures.com/img/086061.JPG

http://www.myfishingpictures.com/img/086118.JPG

[Kevinch]

I like this thread - I'm asking the same questions! :confused:

(No thread hijack intended here - apologies to brufener! :uhoh: )


I currently have a Colt Mustang Pocketlite that I want to retire from pocket carry. I'd prefer to go up in caliber, and am looking at either a J frame (642) or the PM9. This is for pocket carry - I have other hardware for OWB or IWB. I also have a P32 for when I need something really small.

Concealment in this application is a priority for me. From what I've read, it appears that the PM9 conceals as well as, or better, than a J frame but some are hesitant to carry because of a reputation of unreliability - is that a fair assesment?

[ChristopherG]

I went to a gunstore that would let me put them both in my pockets to see what felt like what and looked like what. I suggest you try the same.

Sorry to repeat myself, but the truth is that you will get opposing answers to that question; try it for yourself. When I did this little experiment for myself, the clear answer based on concealability and comfort was the j-frame. The cylinder is thicker, yes; but the narrower ends & edges of a j-frame print less, for me, than the square ends and edges of an auto--at least an auto in the PM9 category. In tightish pants it's clear there's something in my pocket, but it's small and amorphous enough that I never have cause to worry about it--even when I "slip up" and find myself pocket-carrying where I'm not supposed to (a lot of silly places fall under this guideline in my state).

Your .32 is a different class of gun, more concealable than either; but like you, I wanted something a power-class up from that. For me, it was (and is) a 340pd. I've been carrying it, largely in pockets, for almost 3 years now. I expect it'll still be there in 10 years.

[brufener]

Thanks for all the replies, they have been very helpful.

I agree that the best thing I can do is try them myself, and I plan to do it. I just wanted to get others' opinions so I could have an idea what to look for.

I think the most intriguing piece is the new Skyy pistol coming out, but I would worry about reliability.

The poster that talked about having to fire from an awkward position made a lot of sense. From what I understand, micro-compacts are very susceptible to limp wristing.

I also like the idea of being able to fire from inside of a jacket pocket.

I guess you could say that I am leaning towards a j-frame (or taurus equivalent).

Again, thanks for the responses. I need to go to a shop to try them out now.

[TOADMAN]

(Quote) Kevnich
Concealment in this application is a priority for me. From what I've read, it appears that the PM9 conceals as well as, or better, than a J frame but some are hesitant to carry because of a reputation of unreliability - is that a fair assesment?



Kevinch, I would say your assesment is more than fair...

[Manedwolf]

Concealment in this application is a priority for me. From what I've read, it appears that the PM9 conceals as well as, or better, than a J frame but some are hesitant to carry because of a reputation of unreliability - is that a fair assesment?

Pretty much, I think. If a round in a revolver doesn't fire, you just fire the next. To match that, a semiauto has to be a HUNDRED percent reliable or as close as possible to that, because when you're most likely to need the gun, in the matter of a few seconds, a malfunction can get you killed.

[Deanimator]

I don't have a CCW, but whenever I answer the door, I've got my Chief's Special in my front pant's pocket, sans holster. It's quite unobtrusive, especially in my baggy athletic shorts. Once I had to call the cops because some meth-billy looking guy was trying to "social engineer" his way in by ringing all of the doorbells. Neither the woman who freaked out seeing him, he, OR the cops ever realized that I was armed.

[ugaarguy]

Perhaps consider a Kel-Tec? I really like the P-11 I just bought, and their single stack PF-9 (due out in a month or so) is smaller and lighter than the Rohrbaugh and suggested retail is in the mid $300 range depending upon finish. They're DAO and hit the primer pretty hard so thats not a worry. If you wanna know more check out www.ktog.org.

[cookekdjr]

While most Kel-tec's are reliable, they let as many lemons out the door as Kahr. Most KT owners love theirs, and many cops swear by them as their BUG....but far too many folks have problems with them for me.
-David

[Slip Shooter]

Keep in mind the Kahr's have a 200 round break-in period, and a firm grip is needed. Same for the Kel-Tec P-3AT, and other small autos. No limp wristing. The J frame is good to go out of the box. Just load it and pull the trigger. That being said, my Kahr CW9 is 100 percent reliable. About 520 rounds, so far, without a problem. Notice I said "so far". The question is always there.

[Soybomb]

I bought a kel-tec p3at and a s&w 642. Neither one worked right out of the box. I fixed the kel-tec at home after calling kelptec to get a new extractor. I had to mail the s&w in. Now both seem to be running great. The moral of the story I wouldn't trust any gun out of the box without testing it myself for several hundred rounds, and I would have no reason to distrust a gun that had problems than ran several hundred rounds after being repaired. Ymmv.

[ugaarguy]

While most Kel-tec's are reliable, they let as many lemons out the door as Kahr. Most KT owners love theirs, and many cops swear by them as their BUG....but far too many folks have problems with them for me.
-David

I bought a kel-tec p3at and a s&w 642. Neither one worked right out of the box. I fixed the kel-tec at home after calling kelptec to get a new extractor. I had to mail the s&w in. Now both seem to be running great. The moral of the story I wouldn't trust any gun out of the box without testing it myself for several hundred rounds, and I would have no reason to distrust a gun that had problems than ran several hundred rounds after being repaired. Ymmv.

For all the Kel-Tec bashers out there you should go to www.ktog.org. Here's a little insight: Yes, from time to time they have problems, but most can be fixed easily in a short amount of time at home. The folks at ktog acknowledge this and have plenty of picture filled tutorials to show you how. Another observation from a ktog member was who else is even trying to produce pistols this small, with this much power, not to mention the price point of Kel-Tec? I wanted a quality tiny 9mm but Rohrbaughs are way out of my (and most people's) price range. Maybe I got lucky that $190 P-11 is reliable. Even if it wasnt I could get it running easily with a little work and a few dollars. I plan to buy more Kel-Tecs once I satisfy other firearm wants and when the budget allows. I know they might need a little TLC, but they're still high quality AMERICAN made firearms. Kel-Tecs still dont have open holes in the side of the frame either :neener:

[Squidward]

While I like the looks and light weight of the snubby more, my current pocket pistol is the Glock 26 in a Nemisis holster.

Yep, its heavier, but 11 rounds, less felt recoil and a quicker reload (if needed) is worth it. So, in answer to your question-the semi auto.

[cookekdjr]

For all the Kel-Tec bashers out there you should go to www.ktog.org...
Ummmm...I don't think what I said qualifies as "bashing", when I did say:
Most KT owners love theirs, and many cops swear by them as their BUG

I just pointed out the obvious: too many lemons make it out the door.
Don't believe me? See this poll of KT owners, from here at THR:

http://thehighroad.org/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=1854

I think most KT's are good pistols. Their design, value, and performance are very good. But quality control and reliability are just not there yet. If you are a do-it-yourselfer, then its a great gun to get. That way you can fix whatever problems come up, and can keep your gun reliable. Not everybody has the time or inclination to be a do-it-yourselfer. Some people need something that's reliable right out of the box. The warranty work required on a new 642 is the first I've heard for a new j-frame- and I've spent a good bit of time at the S&W forum (which, by the way, doesn't have a section on how to repair your S&W; it seems that lemon S&W revolvers ar so rare the demand for online help just is not there (I've owned over 10 S&W's, including six j-frames, and never had a problem, for example). When a forum (like the Kahr forum at glocktalk) has a sticky on recall notices, or a section entitled: "Fluff & Buff / TecWerks: Tips, tricks and problem solving solutions. This is the stuff KTOG is famous for", that should tell you something about a product's reliability and quality control. (By the way, in a recent poll, 57.8% of all p11/p40 KT owners at their forum admitted to employing the "fluff & buff" to get their KT to feed and operate 100%).
If the truth sounds like bashing...that should tell you something about the product.

[Michigunner]

My PM9 was too large and heavy for pocket carry, in my case. It stuck out like a sore thumb.

I carry the Rohrbaugh R9S. Also, please remember that Kel-Tec has a new very small 9mm which will be in the stores soon.

[rich52us]

Just put about 80 rds (30 W Silvertip, 50 S&B FMJ) through my 5 yr old P-11 using my new Kel-Tec 12 rd mag. The P-11 and new mag both functioned perfectly, again (I've never had a failure that wasn't due to ammo). I had no trouble
keeping all rds in the center of a silouette target at 25 or more feet
in rapid fire. I am now carrying 13 rds of WW Silvertip in my right
front pocket holster like I have for 5 yrs. I feel very secure.

Richard

[ugaarguy]

Ok, so a Kel-Tec might need a little "Fluff & Buff" but that doesn't mean it isnt quality. Many 1911s need (with much higher intial price tags) need some fine tuning. Honestly, can you blame Kel-Tec? They have buyers who are willing to fine tune the pistols themselves because they feel they're such a great value and they can't keep up with demand. If they cost more and/or were bigger or heavier they wouldn't have a following. As I said I shop for value with my current finances. When I bought the Kel-Tec and used it I understood why they have a following. When I bought a S&W M&P (revolver)and used it I saw why the old pinned & recessed S&W revolvers have such a following. Before tax neither weapon was over $200. I think they were both great values. I like wheel guns. I just think a small FLAT auto, once reliability is proven/broken in, is better for pocket carry & concealment. I'm not trying to start a Kel-Tec/Kahr vs S&W war here. I was simply addressing what I found to be a good value in the platform I favor for pocket carry.

[brufener]

I think the most interesting thing here is what people consider to be "pocket" guns. One poster said he always carries a Glock 26 in a pocket holster, while another poster said the Kahr PM9 was too big and heavy.

I have a Taurus Millenium Pro pt111, which is about the same size as, or slightly smaller than the Glock, and I find it too big for daily pocket carry.

It seems that everyone thinks the j-frame (or equivalent) is small/light enough for pocket carry.

[PX15]

IF you decide on a J-frame....

Get an Airweight..

Get a set of Crimson Trace Lasergrips for it. (the new 405 models are available now. My 538 has the older 205's, but they work just fine.)

Load it up with QUALITY self defense ammo.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_4765.jpg

IF you decide on the Kahr...

I can't help you. :uhoh:

Best Wishes,

JP

[MCgunner]

Here's another comparo of similar sized guns. This is a Taurus M85UL and a Kel Tec P11. Both are around 15 ounces unloaded. Both, as you can see, are about the same pocketable size (finally found some jeans with big enough pockets for pocketing these guns), and I carry either depending on whim. But, most times I have the P11 with me. I own a 380, also, but there's just something nice about having 11 rounds of accurate 9x19mm +P firepower in a pocket.

I think the reliability issue is overblown, too. I've never had a failure in 9 years of owning the P11. I have only fed it 115 grain stuff, my preferred. It loves Hornady 115 grain JHP pills. It eats a 105 grain SWC I cast with equal aplomb, though. Shoot it, learn it, become one with it, and the Kahr 9mm offers advantages over the J frame in power and firepower and ease of reloading. Okay, I may be a little sensative to the reloading thing because I seem to be all thumbs with a speed loader, but reloads are even easier to carry for the autochucker. And, practice ammo is dirt cheap at WalMart or Academy. As much as I love revolvers, the Kahr is the better self defense choice for ME, maybe not you, but for me it is. I don't have a Kahr, happy with my P11, but I've handled and fired 'em and they're quality guns.

http://f5.putfile.com/5/12513404136.jpg

http://f5.putfile.com/5/12513464691.jpg

[Mizzle187]

My everyday carry(and im not in LE just a CCW holder) is a Walther P99compact 9mm in a IWB and a S&W 642 w/205 Laser Grips in a round or square Mika pocket holsters. I forget the 642 is on me on daily basis. It is my backup in most cases depending on the situation. At this time if I were you Id go for the snubbie. Im a big PPK fan but I do think it is a great pocket carry pistol.

[Matt King]

The j-frame revolver is very reliable. I am not saying anything against automatics, but for a ccw i would go with revolver, with an enclosed hammer.

[kmrcstintn]

one teeny, tiny word...

SNUBBY!!!

[ugaarguy]

My second KelTec, a P3AT, got 100 flawless rounds thru it right out of the box before I left for an exercise. Will get more ammo thru it when I get back in and post results. Thus far I think the KTs are the ultimate value in a mouse gun.

[Nematocyst]

A mere opinion from a guy
who had the audacity to post
without even reading the entire thread.
(Confession: I scanned it.)

SEARCH is your friend.
Research PM-9 v. K9.

I own Kahr K9 AND SW 642.
{See below.}

The K9 rides on my right side as I write this.
Not even remotely interested in PM9,
as good as the weight felt.
(Why? SEARCH is your friend.)

Of course,
when you get ready
for a real defensive gun,
check the 870.
{See below.}

YMMV.

;)

Remember: just an opinion.
No truth implied.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=32040&d=1133415639

[gopguy]

Easy. Find a Smith and Wesson 940 9mm J frame revolver. You can have both a snubby and a nine in one package.:evil:

[Brian Williams]

Make a 942 and have both 9mm and lightweight hammerless snub...

[HighVelocity]

I alternate between my 340PD and my MK9. It really depends on what I'm wearing. If I am wearing jeans or heavy shorts that will support the weight of the MK9 then I prefer that. If I'm wearing slacks or lightweight shorts than the 12oz 340PD is more suitable for the job.

The ONLY reasons I prefer the MK9 over the 340PD overall are the sights and speed of reload.

[another okie]

I have a titanium Taurus 85 that is my pocket right now. I use a Kramer pocket holster or a Galco ankle glove. If I can get by with more gun I carry a Glock 26 on the ankle or the belt. I like the snubbie for pocket carry because the grip shape is easier to draw from a pocket than the grip shape of a semi. I also have crimson trace laser grips on my snubbie. Sometimes I think about a PM9, but it's hard to beat the confidence I have in the snubbie, and the snubbie will continue to shoot even if the muzzle is pressed against a bad guy's body, while the semi may or may not. I do also have a Kel-Tec P32, which is great for concealment, but I do have some concerns about reliability and caliber.

[bigmike45]

I usually carry my Taurus PT-145 in pocket carry situations. When I can't the KelTec P-11 in 9mm or my 2.5" hammerless Ruger SP-101 in .357mag works quite well.